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KCsoLucky

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,585
30fps shooters with dual sticks (RDR2) will never be masterpieces in a world with 240+Hz screens and mouse+kb gunplay. No matter how much people like it or buy it.

I hope that you've accepted that you're in the minority on that one(and is also an opinion with no weight similar to the back and forth we had earlier :p). The input lag that most of those games have is the far worse offender than the framerate imo. But yeah, I get tired of the 60fps obsession. In games like MMOs, I lower settings until I'm at 90+.
 

LavaBadger

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,994
HDR seems fine to me?

I've got Nex Machina, DMC5, Sekiro, RE2R, Hellblade and RE7, all automatically switch HDR on when the game starts. It acts and looks no different to the same games on my X/Pro.

I think some people think you need to leave HDR switched on in Windows display settings, and that's definitely not the case. Games that support HDR will automatically turn it in and off as necessary if they detect your display supports it.
The only issue with HDR on PC is that there aren't many monitors currently that support it. If you're using one that does or playing on a TV, it's the same experience. Weird narrative from some people.

HDR on PC had been a longstanding inconsistent experience. No doubt this has to do with a combination of issues related to hardware and software. Maybe it really all is cleared up now.

The last time I tried it, I needed to enable it in a specific way or it would lead to my desktop turning bright green or sometimes seeing weird color banding in games. I stopped messing with it after that.

So, I'll take your word for it if it's fixed now and all automatic. There's no narrative.
 

rodrigolfp

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,235
Going down this road with people who have never used a mouse to game is pointless. They'll never admit that the limitations exist because they legitimately do not know or understand.
Well, people who never used a mouse should just reply on this thread with questions :)
Why do that in a realistic approach game. This could destroy the gameplay.

imo mouse is better for some (more arcade)games and dual sticks for others. You don't need always insane precise.


lol I was a pc gamer for years.

Why do that? Because I want.
I don't need insane precision? But I want.
It's not about what I need. Just like I don't play games because I need, but because I want.
 

rodrigolfp

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,235
I hope that you've accepted that you're in the minority on that one(and is also an opinion with no weight similar to the back and forth we had earlier :p). The input lag that most of those games have is the far worse offender than the framerate imo. But yeah, I get tired of the 60fps obsession. In games like MMOs, I lower settings until I'm at 90+.
And low framerate makes input lag even worse??? Do you know that? That is the main problem with framerates???
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,124
braid was nominated and won some awards I think. In a period not indie friendly. Journey was also a low budget game and had some awards. Also we read above about Return of the Obra Dinn.

in my opinion, if a game is GOTY material we will learn about it. I don't buy conspirancy theories etc.

When pc gaming had AAA(for the time) exclusive gaming, critics were there to nominate and award pc exclusives. Now pc gaming for X reasons can't have these AAA games, so you don't see them in awards. It is as simple as that.
It is completely reasonable a big talented team which has money to spend, to have more possibilities for a big award.

Experimental indies are important and they can be brought excitement and wow, but it's difficult for them to succeed as GOTY contenders. This is not something bad for them.
On the other hand you have stuff like Hollow Knight, which did amazingly well in PC and took nearly one year to launch on consoles and you had the media creating dumb categories to try and allow it to be part of the GOTY conversation.

There is also a part of most indies being overlooked by the media (even if sucesful) until they get the "console launch" and that some of the exclusive pc genres (such as simulation, strategy or 4x) being more hardcore and targeting a niche that tends to be much more strict with how they rate games (still looking at Endless Legends being below 90 despite being the best 4x game in decades).
 

Deleted member 27315

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,795
Why do that? Because I want.
I don't need insane precision? But I want.
It's not about what I need. Just like I don't play games because I need, but because I want.

The creator of RDR didn't want to make a fast game. That's his game. They make it from scratch to support slow-paced gameplay. Because this is what they wanted. If you want a fast game go for it. Play another game or destroy the RDR2's gameplay.

The last of us with a mouse....I don't even want to imagine...
Unreal tournament of us.
 

ClarkusDarkus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,734
-So, why do you see so many people referencing playing at 1440p and not 4k?
A lot of PC players seem to feel framerate is king, and anything under 60fps is not worth playing. As such, they drop their resolutions. 1440p is a middle ground between 1080p and 4k, which many seem to be happy with as it gives them more than enough overheard to crank up all their settings and still hit 60fps (Or some people even go for 144fps). For me, I just try to aim for 4k/60. I do drop it down to 1440p though if a game cannot do that even if I'm moved my settings to medium, but simply because I also tend to prefer 60 fps too. (Vast majority of console games run at 30fps). You could always just stick with 30 fps though, and then resolution would rarely be a concern. 1440p is also a fairly popular monitor resolution, and some folks on PC don't want to hook their PCs up to anything but monitors (Their prerogative, but not actually a thing anyone needs to do). I PC game exclusively on my 4k TV.

-How does it compare to Pro/X?
I think the reality is, the Pro/X often aren't outputting 4k at mid-high settings. They often are upscaling to 4k from lower resolutions. And even when they are native 4k, they are only 30fps, which you could also do on PC, but many choose not to. But HDR definitely does have work to do on PC.

Well you're the perfect guy to speak to about this then, Since you game predominately on you're 4K set. I appreciate the dialogue and feedback, And explaining the whole 1440p thing. Personally i want native 4K so will be going for 4K/60/HDR( when possible )... Like you say consoles are doing 4K( Native BX/CB pro ).. I'm not a monitor person, I literally don't wanna be sniffing pixels on a 27" screen. I want my TV used as it was designed to be. I guess the perk to PC gaming is the fact you can customise it all( 4K/60/30... 1440/120 etc )

You would assume PS5/XB2 would have no problem though with 4K/60/HDR at med-high settings. Hopefully HDR is sorted by then on PC and RT will be also used more.

So how are you going about gaming with you're PC on you're 4K set, Do you use strictly controllers or booting it with wireless kb/m etc. You playing SDR/pc mode for low latency?
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
On the other hand you have stuff like Hollow Knight, which did amazingly well in PC and took nearly one year to launch on consoles and you had the media creating dumb categories to try and allow it to be part of the GOTY conversation.

Same thing happened with Fortnite. It was nominated - and won - some awards at The Game Awards 2018 despite not being released in 2018 and the BR mode still being in "beta". Geoff Keighley, I'm still curious why that was allowed.
 

Dragonyeuw

Member
Nov 4, 2017
4,385
Free online
Multiple controller support
Various storefronts
Hardware agnostic

All of these are advantage PC. The fact that you can scale your technical experience based on your hardware config has always been the cherry on top for me.
 

Minsc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,160
As a developer I'm pretty much tied to the Mac ecosystem, and the sheer frustration and potential undiscovered bugs of getting gaming to work with a GPU on a Mac caused me to give up trying to game on a desktop.

Which I realized is actually perfectly fine unless you need 4k60fps or 1440p144fps, which I do not. I originally started gaming on the PC a decade ago when many games and sales were PC only: the gaming market is at a place now where the game selection and prices between consoles and PCs are similar. There isn't anything on a PC/Mac I'm missing that I can't get on my PS4 Pro (or even a mobile device!).

Ori and the blind forest, Killer Instinct 3, and numerous other Gamepass / Windows-Xbox games? Isn't there like a decent number of RTS/Strategy games that don't run on Mac still (well decent compared to the relatively small number of titles in the genre I guess)?

Also, you say "as a developer I'm tied to the Mac ecosystem..." does that mean all developers are tied to it? Not sure how A leads in to B... there's still plenty of developers who develop for stuff not in the Mac ecosystem right?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,124
Same thing happened with Fortnite. It was nominated - and won - some awards at The Game Awards 2018 despite not being released in 2018 and the BR mode still being in "beta". Geoff Keighley, I'm still curious why that was allowed.
Thats also true on Fortnite, where the game launched on late 2017 but it was not noted until it got hilariouslyt big by early 2018. But at least on Fortnite BR, you could say that it was still an ongoing game (and the "beta" being a big fat lie).

Hollow Knight had launched feature complete the previous year in PC and nobody except PC gamers talked about it, it took it to launch on Switch for people to start hyping it up as the second coming...

unknown.png
 

rodrigolfp

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,235
The creator of RDR didn't want to make a fast game. That's his game. They make it from scratch to support slow-paced gameplay. Because this is what they wanted. If you want a fast game go for it. Play another game or destroy the RDR2's gameplay.

The last of us with a mouse....I don't even want to imagine...
Unreal tournament of us.
GTAs gunplay are fast with mouse and not with dual sticks. RDR could be just as fast as GTA with a mouse (maybe it already is with XIM4). Same with TLOU with a XIM4. Far from 1:1 mouse controlls but faster than on dual sticks. But seens like you don't even know about "XIM4" adaptors.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,672
Tulsa, Oklahoma
I like that on a PC i can customize my hardware and tune my experience the way I want it to be. With consoles, you are pretty much stuck with what you got until the next generation.
 

JudgmentJay

Member
Nov 14, 2017
5,256
Texas
Well you're the perfect guy to speak to about this then, Since you game predominately on you're 4K set. I appreciate the dialogue and feedback, And explaining the whole 1440p thing. Personally i want native 4K so will be going for 4K/60/HDR( when possible )... Like you say consoles are doing 4K( Native BX/CB pro ).. I'm not a monitor person, I literally don't wanna be sniffing pixels on a 27" screen. I want my TV used as it was designed to be. I guess the perk to PC gaming is the fact you can customise it all( 4K/60/30... 1440/120 etc )

You would assume PS5/XB2 would have no problem though with 4K/60/HDR at med-high settings. Hopefully HDR is sorted by then on PC and RT will be also used more.

So how are you going about gaming with you're PC on you're 4K set, Do you use strictly controllers or booting it with wireless kb/m etc. You playing SDR/pc mode for low latency?

I game on PC on my OLED and from my experience HDR gaming is no different than consoles, though I've only played 5 games in HDR (RE7, Sekiro, RE2, FarCry 5, and Shadow of the Tomb Raider). I boot the game, the TV switches to HDR, I play the game. RE7, RE2, and Sekiro I played at 4k60. FC5 and SotTR I lowered to 1800p60). I hope I'm wrong but I really doubt that many next gen console games will be pushing 4k60 outside of the obvious ones (fighting games, racing games, games with simple graphics, etc). HDR does not take extra GPU power by the way.
 
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eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,124
Not only did it win Best Ongoing Game (which I personally disagree with; R6 Siege has improved much more), but it also won Best Multiplayer Game.
NMS was the real Best Ongoing Game though. The best MP game is kinda lame without any of the big F2P games from PC (or heck, MMOs), so I can understand Fortnite winning it with the competition it had (CoD was a worse Fortnite, Sea of Thieves was not that good at launch, Destiny 2 Forsaken wasnt as good, and MHW is a different kind of MP experience).

Overwatch winning the eSports one really killed me though, but I guess it becoming franchise popular despite having a lame metagame in a year where both Dota and LoL were amazing was enough.
 

Lo-Volt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,436
Philadelphia
To ignore the conversations about specific genres and their "natural homes" and get a little macro for a sec, there's a definite advantage to consoles in that they're closed boxes. So you don't need to make a lot of decisions about them. A console manufacturer makes them, makes and defines the accessories, and is resolving the compatibility issues for you. For customers who look on even recreational electronic devices as mere commodities, that is a good thing. For customers who would also rather not spend a lot of money or time on general computing devices, even better! And more customers are trained to shop that way: sealed Macintoshes and Surface computers, sealed smartphones, and well-defined hardware and software ecosystems abound. From that perspective, the "hardcore" way of doing things seems pretty excessive!

Some computer gamers are the same, of course. Pre-built machines are basically all over Best Buy now. Actually, even Walmart is attempting to enter this niche with their "Over Powered" brand, so that the customer doesn't need to compare every part.

That said, the fact that more big store chains are trying to enter this niche should tell us a lot about whether PC gaming has a recognizable case use or "advantage". You can get Corsair and Razer keyboards at Target now. It seems like people are betting the opposite of this thread's original stance. The rise of Japanese publisher support for Windows too. Why stock that stuff at all if not because the customer base is viable?

That said... there clearly are customers willing to spend above the average and devote the time to roll their own. That is a pretty committed niche, and they are worth catering to. If customers are consistently willing to spend as much money on a GPU as a whole console, hell yes someone will try to sell them one. A sufficiently large addressable audience exists, and they seem to think an advantage exists.

In addition, even though it can be complex and expensive, the upgrading options available for computers are great for power users. While consoles are less likely to use bespoke or powerful silicon options, PC buyers can take advantage of their platform's modular nature to keep on the bleeding edge. A console user throws their box out (an exaggeration to make the point), while a PC user doesn't have to load all their components when one of them is insufficient. Because of the challenges and price expectations facing console designs, it's a less attractive place for power gamers compared to the past. The days of "blast processing" or totally unique silicon are over - the PS3 and Xbox 360 experience seems to have slayed that dragon. With the maturity of ARM, this could change again, but for now, this is the world of x86.

There is also a lot of user input flexibility inherent in the PC: we're happy using gamepads (possibly the most significant benefit of Microsoft's Xbox excursion) and have better selection, in addition to those keyboards and mice. Meanwhile, genres that used to be better represented in consoles, like the SimCity style of games, seem to suffer more because the reverse isn't the case. Even though the addition of USB should make consoles more welcome environments for games that are best controlled with keyboards.
 
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Gelf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,358
Completely the opposite for me, next gen I'm considering going without a console for the first time. With Japanese devs being onboard with PC more than ever before my reasons for owning a console are diminishing.
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
NMS was the real Best Ongoing Game though. The best MP game is kinda lame without any of the big F2P games from PC (or heck, MMOs), so I can understand Fortnite winning it with the competition it had (CoD was a worse Fortnite, Sea of Thieves was not that good at launch, Destiny 2 Forsaken wasnt as good, and MHW is a different kind of MP experience).

My issue isn't with it winning Best Multiplayer per se, my issue is that it wasn't released in 2018 and still won. I have absolutely no evidence to make any sort of conspiracy claims, but EGS did sponsor the show last year...
 

Deleted member 27315

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,795
GTAs gunplay are fast with mouse and not with dual sticks. RDR could be just as fast as GTA with a mouse (maybe it already is with XIM4). Same with TLOU with a XIM4. Far from 1:1 mouse controlls but faster than on dual sticks. But seens like you don't even know about "XIM4" adaptors.
Again. Not all games need fast gameplay. Not all games have the same gameplay. I don't want the last of us to be fast, I want to be whatever the creators want it to be. Slow. Why destroy it?

GTA is a game that could support fast gameplay more than RDR2.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,400
I really don't understand why people get upset about multiple launchers with free online but praise having to pay over 20 dollars a month if you want online multiplayer on all 3 consoles.
This is such a bullshit argument. if i want to play Halo 5 or Smash Ultimate online again, i have to whip out the old credit card, meanwhile if i want to play Siege on Uplay launcher, it's no problem.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,124
My issue isn't with it winning Best Multiplayer per se, my issue is that it wasn't released in 2018 and still won. I have absolutely no evidence to make any sort of conspiracy claims, but EGS did sponsor the show last year...
I think it is just the media reacting to a seismic change after it happened and responding late.Nothing really screams outrageous (but the game selection for best MP games is pretty lame and console focused).
 

LavaBadger

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,994
Well you're the perfect guy to speak to about this then, Since you game predominately on you're 4K set. I appreciate the dialogue and feedback, And explaining the whole 1440p thing. Personally i want native 4K so will be going for 4K/60/HDR( when possible )... Like you say consoles are doing 4K( Native BX/CB pro ).. I'm not a monitor person, I literally don't wanna be sniffing pixels on a 27" screen. I want my TV used as it was designed to be. I guess the perk to PC gaming is the fact you can customise it all( 4K/60/30... 1440/120 etc )

You would assume PS5/XB2 would have no problem though with 4K/60/HDR at med-high settings. Hopefully HDR is sorted by then on PC and RT will be also used more.

So how are you going about gaming with you're PC on you're 4K set, Do you use strictly controllers or booting it with wireless kb/m etc. You playing SDR/pc mode for low latency?

Others seem to be noting that HDR is working fine for them on PC now. I haven't checked back in with it recently, so I'll take their words on it. But yes, I play SDR which has always been very responsive for everything I play.

I usually boot up my computer with a mouse (Steam controller) just because I have my games in a number of different launchers, and I do like playing some games that require a mouse (I use a steam controller for those because I like sitting on the couch and don't want to use a keyboard to play anything if I can help it).

That said, once I start most games, it's all controller from there. You wouldn't know you weren't playing on an Xbox or PS4 unless you went into the settings and saw how many other options you could play with. And if I was so inclined, I could check the box to start Steam in big picture mode, which puts you directly into the launcher from turning on your computer with controller support as the default. I think big picture mode is just OK, so I prefer to use a mouse for that little bit of selecting the game. I have a pro and an X sitting in the same entertainment center; I just prefer the PC.
 
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KiKaL

Member
Oct 26, 2017
408
Opposite for me. After owning every console since NES, this is the first generation I own none of the consoles and have just stuck to PC. I've missed a few games I would love to play, GoW, Bloodborne, Mario Odyssey and more but with the amount of PC games, there has never been a moment I have not had a game to play. I have been a PC gamer my whole like also so it's not just because of a recent switch.

For me it really came down to the amount of time I have and the fact there is enough top tier games to more than fill my time on PC. I have stuck with PC over consoles due to being able to plays FPS with m+kb, adventure games with an xbox controller, and then steam link for comfy couch gaming. It also helps I can play my full game library on my PC versus having to dig out an old console to play an older game.
 

Anno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,988
Columbus, Ohio
I don't even really think you can argue that PC games exist in a different space with regards to the media and list voting. The majority of games only on PC have little to no marketing budget and are barely covered if at all even by the supposedly PC-oriented press. They exist and grow by word of mouth in PC gaming communities, which is why things like Steam's community section are so important.

Even those with a budget are likely still something like a relatively niche strategy game that definitely isn't going to be there for GotY voting by the majority of the press. It's rare that something like D:OS2 comes along and puts up a bit of a fight.

It is what it is, I don't really care, but it's weird to not even acknowledge this is how it works almost all the time.
 

rodrigolfp

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,235
Again. Not all games need fast gameplay. Not all games have the same gameplay. I don't want the last of us to be fast, I want to be whatever the creators want it to be. Slow. Why destroy it?

GTA is a game that could support fast gameplay more than RDR2.
Again, it's not what we need. It's what we want. TLOU creators created the game first at 30fps then remastered at 60fps. Because they needed? No, because they wanted. 60fps better than 30 is a fact, not opinion. Just like mouse aiming is better than stick aiming, doesn't matter if we need or not.
 

Deleted member 27315

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,795
Just like mouse aiming is better than stick aiming, doesn't matter is we need or not.

I don't want a 360 fast blink on the last of us because this will destroy the game. When I want a platform game I don't play a racing gaming, I play a platform game. When I want a slow paced game I will not play COD, I will play the last of us.
I don't want to blink 360 with Joel because this will destroy completely the game.


If you don't understand this we can stop here.
 

rodrigolfp

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,235
I don't want a 360 fast blink on the last of us because this will destroy the game. When I want a platform game I don't play a rcing gaming, I play a platform game. When I want a slow pace game I will not play COD, I will play the last of us.
I don't wantto blink 360 because this will destroy the game.

If you don't understand this we can stop here.
Destroy the game? LOL. You really have no idea how is mouse aiming and you can control the sensitivity if you can aim slower xD
 

Deleted member 27315

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,795
User Banned (1 Day): Trolling over a series of posts in this thread
Destroy the game? LOL. You really have no idea how is mouse aiming and you can control the sensitivity if you can aim slower xD
lol you forgot that you talk about 360 fast blinks in RDR2 as an advantage for RDR?

He thinks every game with a mouse plays like Unreal Tournament. This is your cue to stop.

Next time read the previous posts before defend with nonsense :)
I had a pc gaming rig before you were even born.

he said:
Show me you doing 360º "in a blink" with your crosshair like we can do with a mouse.
 
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Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,946
It's just you.

Microsoft is now bringing their titles to PC, as an example. Prices on things like SSDs have absolutely cratered.

Never been better.
 

LavaBadger

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,994
Again, it's not what we need. It's what we want. TLOU creators created the game first at 30fps then remastered at 60fps. Because they needed? No, because they wanted. 60fps better than 30 is a fact, not opinion. Just like mouse aiming is better than stick aiming, doesn't matter if we need or not.

More FPS is better is true. (At least up to the level at which humans can appreciate it; no idea how high that would be). Same thing with resolution.

Controllers vs mouse & keyboards are not the same argument. If the only question is, "Which can you point faster with", then sure, a mouse is going to be better for anyone practiced with it. But there are a lot of other elements to consider when thinking about those two different control schemes and why someone might prefer one rather than the other. Efficiency of action is just one element, and may not even be an essential element when you consider what games are actually asking of you (A game designed for a controller isn't always going to be better with a mouse).
 

Dr. Zoidberg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
Decapod 10
I will agree that the pricing advantage for PC games seems to be eroding but that is mostly due to quicker price drops at retail where PC isn't a player. I am constantly being tempted by dirt-cheap console games at retail that are still quite a bit more expensive on PC. This seems to be especially true for the Japanese games on Steam, where the various key-seller sites don't discount them much or carry the games at all.

For example, Dragon Quest XI PS4 has been sold at retail for under $20 numerous times starting last year but the current historical low on PC is $29.99 and it's not even discounted during the current Steam sale. I could point to several examples like this. I end up buying lots of console games I'd rather have on Steam because of this.
 

Timewarp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
883
I feel it's the other way around. Without exclusives consoles are just glorified Blu-ray players. For many people they already are.
 

rodrigolfp

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,235
More FPS is better is true. (At least up to the level at which humans can appreciate it; no idea how high that would be). Same thing with resolution.

Controllers vs mouse & keyboards are not the same argument. If the only question is, "Which can you point faster with", then sure, a mouse is going to be better for anyone practiced with it. But there are a lot of other elements to consider when thinking about those two different control schemes and why someone might prefer one rather than the other. Efficiency of action is just one element, and may not even be an essential element when you consider what games are actually asking of you (A game designed for a controller isn't always going to be better with a mouse).
For every game that you have to aim a crosshair, mouse is better. Fact. That is why you don't have any aim assist in pc shooters (unless "bad" ports). That is also why adaptor like XIM4 exists for consoles.
 

Eros

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,712
PC is stronger than ever for me. I'm only gaming on console when it's not available for PC.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
Controllers vs mouse & keyboards are not the same argument. If the only question is, "Which can you point faster with", then sure, a mouse is going to be better for anyone practiced with it. But there are a lot of other elements to consider when thinking about those two different control schemes and why someone might prefer one rather than the other. Efficiency of action is just one element, and may not even be an essential element when you consider what games are actually asking of you (A game designed for a controller isn't always going to be better with a mouse).

Yep. And setting aside the virtues of a mouse vs a stick for aiming, I've grown to hate the keyboard for movement+actions in modern shooters. I could get over WASD vs left-stick as basically a wash, but the hand contortions required for all other actions (run, crouch, reload, use, grenade, map, jump, weapon swap, etc) just vastly more comfortable on a gamepad imo. Since I have no aspiration to be an e-sports star, I prefer the comfort of a gamepad even if I lose a degree of aim accuracy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,902
The other advantages that PC will always have over console is the fact that you can always download more RAM and add RGB lighting to increase FPS in all your games.

bekdjo1hpciz.jpg


Sony and MS really screwed up by not touting RGB customization on their next console.
 
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