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Freddie Prinze Jr's tears down the arguments from Star Wars "fans" and explains the balance of the Force
- Thread starter Deleted member 5666
- Start date
This is a stupid and scummy statement. "Anyone who criticizes media I like is just morally evil!"
But there are. You think anyone can reach Anakin Skywalker's level?
Midichlorians are still canon and they're basically a confirmation of power levels.
Anyways, Luke's been training for years between ANH and ESB. Rey didn't haven't that. The ST takes place over a few weeks.
like when the prequels released? Wasn't reception to ROTJ mixed? I bet though people that GL killed star wars back then too.
You just took a quote from Lucas that states pretty clearly that Anakin as Vader can not grow his power... then turn around and say that Luke's been training for years between ANH and ESB to... justify his power level?
A few things in reply to Prinze's rant:
1. Has he not heard about the death of the author?
2. People are fans of Darth Maul because he looks sick AND BECAUSE LUCAS HIMSELF BROUGHT HIM BACK in The Clone Wars. It has nothing to do with video games, he's only in what, Battlefront and Battlefront II multiplayer? If Prinze wants to dismiss die hard Maul fans (who are fans because of The Clone Wars, an animated series) then he's also saying that we should dismiss everything Rebels.
3. "There's no such thing as a grey Jedi." Well, in the recent Empire article the following is stated: "Ren's temptation by the light, like Rey's temptation by the dark, forms the spine of a moral ambiguity that Johnson build on in VIII and very much carries over to IX, bringing with is a sense that George Lucas' more clearly defined duality might be a relic of a simpler time. Neither light nor dark, The Rise of Skywalker and its characters exist more within what could be considered the grey side of the Force – something underscored by the tantalising footage of 'Darth Rey' (complete with cowl, hangover pallor and double-bladed red lightsaber) that closed Abrams' D23 Expo footage presentation in Anaheim in August.
Oops.
4. The Force willing everything is as bad as midi-chlorians. Not only is learning the Jedi ways dependent on one's midi-chlorian count, now nobody has any real agency because things happen as the Force wills it. It was great when the Force was a power that anyone could harness through training and adopting a certain mindset.
1. Has he not heard about the death of the author?
2. People are fans of Darth Maul because he looks sick AND BECAUSE LUCAS HIMSELF BROUGHT HIM BACK in The Clone Wars. It has nothing to do with video games, he's only in what, Battlefront and Battlefront II multiplayer? If Prinze wants to dismiss die hard Maul fans (who are fans because of The Clone Wars, an animated series) then he's also saying that we should dismiss everything Rebels.
3. "There's no such thing as a grey Jedi." Well, in the recent Empire article the following is stated: "Ren's temptation by the light, like Rey's temptation by the dark, forms the spine of a moral ambiguity that Johnson build on in VIII and very much carries over to IX, bringing with is a sense that George Lucas' more clearly defined duality might be a relic of a simpler time. Neither light nor dark, The Rise of Skywalker and its characters exist more within what could be considered the grey side of the Force – something underscored by the tantalising footage of 'Darth Rey' (complete with cowl, hangover pallor and double-bladed red lightsaber) that closed Abrams' D23 Expo footage presentation in Anaheim in August.
Oops.
4. The Force willing everything is as bad as midi-chlorians. Not only is learning the Jedi ways dependent on one's midi-chlorian count, now nobody has any real agency because things happen as the Force wills it. It was great when the Force was a power that anyone could harness through training and adopting a certain mindset.
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Luke is the standard. He set it. He's also the son of Force Jesus.
Rey's just powerful because she's the main character and also the movies aren't interested in training her.
All Luke did was tell Rey what the Force is. That is the extent of her training.
You're not a sexist if you think the movies do an inadequate job of explaining why Rey is so skilled.
I mean even Anakin had to train to use his shit. There's a difference between having a high potential and knowing how to use it all.
Then why aren't Jedi children the best at using the Force?
Clearly, living as a scavenger makes her as good a fighter as a Jed who has been training for years at it.
Lucas is talking about Anakin's potential which can be set by biological factors. That's why Palpatine wants to ditch Luke for Darth Vader. Vader can't get any stronger. It's baked into the story.
Luke's not that strong in ESB but his potential is as high as Anakin's. It's all about training to achieve that potential.
It even takes him time to do a Force Pull for his lightsaber at the beginning of ESB.
Rey did that shot pretty fast in comparison.
While Jedi do have to train to hone their techniques and prevent themselves from slipping to the dark side, it is very clear that Anakin is using the force before he knows that the force exists of that he is force sensitive. That's the only way he is able to, as a human child, pod race.
There's nothing in Star Wars canon that prevents a highly force sensitive person from being able to connect with aspects of their power without proper training.
Sometimes I'm jealous I have never been a fan of Star Wars, and sometimes I'm happy that I'm not into it (when bad things happen around it, bad games, apparently unsatisfactory movies, D&D going to Star Wars after GOT). I need to finish The Last Jedi some day, I keep running it in the background hoping to catch story enough to complete it but I eventually need to use the screen or close it for some important reason.
Good to see FPJ laying out law (haven't watched video but read the summary).
Good to see FPJ laying out law (haven't watched video but read the summary).
So you guys don't think Obi trained him in others things while hitching that ride? Lol ok
ResetEra's a pretty progressive forum so it just rankles discussion when people start implying or being obvious that people who don't accept the progression of Rey's powers is a sexist.
It's not arguing in good faith.
It's just self-righteous stereotyping of their opponents so they can feel good about themselves.
OP obviously wants to squash discussion but all they're doing by bringing this topic back up is causing another shitstorm again.
It's not arguing in good faith.
It's just self-righteous stereotyping of their opponents so they can feel good about themselves.
OP obviously wants to squash discussion but all they're doing by bringing this topic back up is causing another shitstorm again.
His rant doesn't suddenly make any of the characters interesting or the movies anything more than nostalgia cash grabs.
I'm not saying that's impossible either but Rey goes through all of Luke's greatest hits by the end of her first movie. I'm already finding that a stretch.
But I mean Luke and Anakin are powerful for very specific reasons.
Rey is just this good because she's the MC.
And if the movie was telling me she's almost as good as Luke then that'd be easier to take but it's telling that she's better than Luke and Anakin which I find harder to take
Why are you so obsessed with defending Rey?
Why are you so obsessed with Star Wars?
I'm not? You are the one who has an issue with her and her arc.
Of all the crazy/out there shit that happens in Star Wars, some people suddenly are concerned with where female characters get their powers/skills.
Yup.
And yet here we have a grown man ranting about if you know the rules of the force you already know who will win and "there were two bad guys so obviously the force made twin good guys! Duh!"
Lol! That was great, and spot on. I've actually stopped going into Star Wars threads and talking about it, because a very vocal group of fans have managed to suck the fun right out of discussion of the series and characters. Arguing the same points over and over again is exhausting to me, not enjoyable.
I absolutely love Star Wars, and have since I first saw the trilogy in the mid 80's as a kid, but I just can't discuss it online anymore. The sequel trilogy has been pretty great so far, and I'm excited as fuck for The Rise of Skywalker, but I'm not sure I'll be joining in on forum discussions much. The discourse around TFA and TLJ has been a huge turnoff for me.
I absolutely love Star Wars, and have since I first saw the trilogy in the mid 80's as a kid, but I just can't discuss it online anymore. The sequel trilogy has been pretty great so far, and I'm excited as fuck for The Rise of Skywalker, but I'm not sure I'll be joining in on forum discussions much. The discourse around TFA and TLJ has been a huge turnoff for me.
Avengers Endgame is about time travelling through the microscopic world. Execution is key.
And guess what? The execution of the latest movies isn't so hot with audiences despite playing super safe
You forgot when Anakin gloated to the Count that his powers "doubled" since they last met 😆
She lived on her own on a hostile planet both in atmosphere and inhabitants. For her to survive would necessitate learning how to fight. Lightsaber training does not make an elite fighter. It's about learning how to use such a dangerous weapon, when to use it, and how utilizing the Force can supplement and amplify one's performance.
She's also not shown to be better at fighting than Kylo. She's shown to defeat him when he's seriously wounded and emotionally compromised (which negatively effects his ability to wield The Force).
He's not talking about potential. He's talking about raw power that Anakin possessed before being mamed vs losing access to a significant portion after being mamed. He doesn't need to reach a potential max, he is AT his max until he loses his limbs. This is why The Jedi Council is wary of him the entire time. Because he's essentially a walking nuclear bomb. The purpose of the training, for both Jedi and Sith is about molding the mind. Thought processes. World view. Not about developing potential power.
Luke's strength is always greater than Vader's. What allows Vader to beat him in ESB is that Luke's emotions are clouded and his mind is not clear. What allows him to overpower Vader in RotJ is his channeling the rage but what makes him win is mental clarity at the last moment (a realization that causes a mental breakthrough) and THAT gives him the ability to bring Vader back to the Light Side. None of that is from training techniques. At most, meditation could play a role but mental clarity and breakthroughs aren't reached through training the same way that physique or physical skill is. It's not a bit by bit over time thing. It's moments of sudden realization. And different people have those moments at different times throughout different experiences.
Obi really doesn't train Luke physically at all. That happens with Yoda and even then is limited to physical conditioning. The lessons the Jedi impart upon Padawans are largely philosophical ones as well as the rules of the Order itself. They're Monks not MMA fighters. That's why there are no duel training scenes in the OT. Even the exercise of blocking the little lasers from the ball isn't about training use with the lightsaber. It's about feeling and trusting The Force. It's about reaching the right mind state to utilize what they already have correctly and without falling to the Dark Side.
I went in really expecting to love what he was about to say, but lord....that was an obnoxious ass rant.
Also, I disagree about the "leveling up." I get what he is going for, but there is obviously training that goes into helping one connect more with the force. I've no issue with Rey or Luke's skills whatsoever though...just saying that I think there are improvements to be made via training and "leveling up."
Also, I disagree about the "leveling up." I get what he is going for, but there is obviously training that goes into helping one connect more with the force. I've no issue with Rey or Luke's skills whatsoever though...just saying that I think there are improvements to be made via training and "leveling up."
I didn't forget it, it doesn't matter what he says because Anakin never understands the way of the Jedi or the Force. That's why he falls to the Dark Side. He literally talks about that throughout Attack and Revenge. He doesn't understand the Council. He doesn't get their reasoning. His logic is one that falls on the side of The Greater Power should Rule. So he doesn't understand that he's always been this powerful. He's measuring his strength the wrong way because his mental state is in the wrong place and that disconnect is what makes him vulnerable to Palpatine and causes his downfall.
Yikes nice name calling insult there friend. This kind of thinking as worse as people who do actually believe star wars is for girls now imo.
Is this why there are Jedi holocrons from Anakin Skywalker explaining the proper form to fight and how to adapt to certain opponents? Or why Mace Windu was hailed as the greatest duelist in the Jedi Order? Or why there are actual scenes of dozens of padawans being taught by a Jedi Master how to wield a lightsaber?
You can't just ignore the parts you don't like, y'know.
Fair enough. It's never easy to tell in these types of threads when someone is joking or when they believe in what they're saying because a lot of the finer points get missed in how murky the movies have been in explaining things.
They were rhetorical questions.
First off, you're not arguing in good faith. You don't even know me and you're already trying to paint me as a misogynist because I don't think a fictional female character's feats are portrayed well.
Second, what makes you think I'm not concerned about all the other crazy shit? That isn't the topic here. I'm not going to go off in a tangent complaining about Force Ghostsz
Third, it devalues the stories of Anakin and Luke. If nobodies can be as powerful as Anakin then the integrity of the PT and OT along with TCW is smeared a bit. But the ST does that worse as a whole anyway.
Fourth, it's not compelling to watch. My opinion though.
Fifth, there's not really a good reason that she's as powerful as she is besides being the MC. Luke and Anakin had reasons.
Sixth, the ST tries to frame Rey as a nobody but then makes as special as Luke and Anakin. I find the whole thing disingenuous.
You might think it was a stupid comment but, if you read Dark Disciple, you'd know the last time Anakin and Dooku fought was when Dooku was forced to run away because Anakin was winning. So Anakin saying that is really his way of saying Dooku doesn't stand a chance, rather than some arbitrary power level thing.
I'm still amazed that this rant came from the actor who portraed a primary example of "Jedi training that develops a character growing more powerful in a way that feels earned"
You mean the stuff that Lucas and Filoni added years and years after the fact to fill out the universe and have actual things happening? I didn't say that training in the use of lightsaber forms, fighting, and techniques didn't exist. I said that Power and the ability to use those things didn't come from that training.
Mace's skill with a lightsaber came from his ability to use Vaapad.. which he was only able to do because of his mental focus and mind state. Almost all other users of Vaapad either fell to the Dark Side because of it or were already Dark Side Force Users.
huh?
Kanan training of ezra was more about feeling the force, believing in him and stuff like this.
it wasnt like "do 3 thousand pushups to unlock force choke"
Star Wars is universal in that it has wide-reaching themes that can touch across every age and generation. But there is a layer of simplicity within that that really speaks to children (for example, Luke loses his hand but he immediately gets a new one and all is well, and they don't really explore the ramifications of some terrible acts) and I think that what he is saying is true. They are for everyone but they are made with children in mind. George Lucas himself has said that he made these movies for kids - even as recently as two years ago. I see far more people my age that grew up with the Prequel movies that love them than not. I'm sure we'll see the same thing with the Sequel movies once they've had time to simmer. The amount of little girls, for example, that I've seen wear Rey merchandise or even dress up as her for Halloween is staggering.
There is some kind of stigma in saying that "these are for kids" as if that means it is only for that age group but that isn't true at all. To me, The Mandalorian looks like the first Star Wars project (outside of books and comics) that is being specifically made to appeal to an older demographic imho.
There is some kind of stigma in saying that "these are for kids" as if that means it is only for that age group but that isn't true at all. To me, The Mandalorian looks like the first Star Wars project (outside of books and comics) that is being specifically made to appeal to an older demographic imho.
Yes, I know. I need more than "she grew up on the streets and became a good fighter because of it"
He's talking about potential because Anakin wasn't twice as strong as Palpatine, he inly had the potential to be.
That's why Palpatine shouts out "Darth Vader will grow more powerful than either of us". Anakin's not there yet
Kanaans training was about all that AND combat skill, form, even how to adjust the settings of your freaking lightsaber.
It wasn't just "believe in yourself to become a god"
But hey whatever lets you sleep at night
That scene alone is more training and effort than Rey's in 2 movies. That's disgraceful
Edit: So much for "Just believe in yourself"
why would a fucking kid film series keep me from sleeping at night?
LOL
Considering how you rush to every single post criticizing the newest kid films in the series....
Again, Freddy himself portrayed exactly what everyone has asked and it certainly wasn't the "level up" dismissive BS.
So his argument is hilarious
The force did it. Everything good and everything bad is because of the force. Kids died and became slaves because of the force. Yay.
the force is centrist.
the force is centrist.