Ex-Naughty Dog animator: "ND's games success is due in large part to Sony's deep pocket funding delays rather than skill alone"

Sedated · Mar 13, 2020

Well hopefully this pushback helps to correct some of it at ND.

Pryme said:
Rockstar games?
CDPR?

you'd be hard pressed convincing anyone that TLOU 2 is more ambitious in scope than Cyberpunk.

Id like to point out that both these devs probs crunch even more than ND. Both have horrible tales regarding it.

Fiery Phoenix · Mar 13, 2020

Those tweets seem salty. I don't think this guy left amicably.

RivalGT · Mar 13, 2020

He comes off as an ass when he says he only wants to work with the best.

Pryme · Mar 13, 2020

Sedated said:
Id like to point out that both these devs probs crunch even more than ND. Both have horrible tales regarding it.

yeah. Shame they don't get called out for it more often. Same as Naughty Dog.

Pryme · Mar 13, 2020

RivalGT said:
He comes off as an ass when he says he only wants to work with the best.

No? It's his personal development plan. It comes off as someone confident in his skills and abilities who wants to work with people of the same caliber.
Hardly an unusual opinion.

Fiery Phoenix said:
Those tweets seem salty. I don't think this guy left amicably.

Posts like this display a complete lack of empathy for the people and their families suffering crunch.
the tweetstorm in itself is part of an overarching conversation set in motion by Jason's exposé. It wasn't just made out of the blues.

Kaswa101 · Mar 13, 2020

Another reason to avoid TLOU2.

RivalGT · Mar 13, 2020

Pryme said:
No? It's his personal development plan. It comes off as someone confident in his skills and abilities who wants to work with people of the same caliber.
Hardly an unusual opinion.

True

Modest Mauser · Mar 13, 2020

This thread title really presents his harshest words out of context of the argument about the problems with the company's culture he's making. It makes it sound like he's attacking the workers for their skill, and the pages of people reading that one tweet and kneejerk commenting are shitty.

RedOnePunch · Mar 13, 2020

I edited my post because the title of this thread is out of context. He's not saying the success of their games is because of Sony's deep pockets, but the ability of an inexperienced team to deliver a quality game.

Regarding talent retention, that's usually the sign of bad culture. I'm sure being one of the premier developers in the industry gives them the opportunity to abuse employees who want the opportunity to work there.

Arion · Mar 13, 2020

We already knew this was happening but this is just more confirmation of it. Still gonna buy the game, lol.

AzVal · Mar 13, 2020

the night shift of the defense force is here....

Tiago Rodrigues · Mar 13, 2020

Kaswa101 said:
Another reason to avoid TLOU2.

Humor me...what would be the other reasons?

fade · Mar 13, 2020

As if all other big publishers dont have the deep pockets. Activision doesn't have those pockets? EA doesn't have those pockets? MS doesn't have those pockets? Also, if a more senior team would have delivered the game a year ago wouldn't that made the crunch even worse or is he advocating cutting corners?

Fredrik · Mar 13, 2020

Okay this doesn't sound good at all. The combination of a publisher's deep pockets and studio mantra that a game should be delayed til it's perfect and then they crunch even when a game is delayed makes me think things there are unfixable. And wasn't there talk about some needing therapy from the violence focus as well?
Studio probably needs new management. And a new more light-hearted focus. Jak 4 next please?

RedOnePunch · Mar 13, 2020

fade said:
As if all other big publishers dont have the deep pockets. Activision doesn't have those pockets? EA doesn't have those pockets? MS doesn't have those pockets? Also, if a more senior team would have delivered the game a year ago wouldn't that made the crunch even worse or is he advocating cutting corners?

I don't think he's comparing ND/Sony to any other publisher. He's saying an inexperienced team wouldn't be able to deliver a quality game without delays. What he also means to say is Sony's deep pockets allow naughty dog to not value senior talent because they'll get the job done eventually

N.47H.4N · Mar 13, 2020

Pryme said:
Rockstar games?
CDPR?

you'd be hard pressed convincing anyone that TLOU 2 is more ambitious in scope than Cyberpunk.

Well said,just as ND,Rockstar and CDPR has crunch too to achieve the scope and details of their games,but The Last of Us is a linear story driven game.You said like there is a lot of games like Part 2,but you just named two of the biggest third party games out there,with a much bigger staff and development time and also crunch on top of all,can you name a linear single player at the scope of Part 2?The only one I can think is God of War 2018 and of course had crunch and took 5 years to finish.I am curious to see how big is Part 2 compared to God of War.I can't wait to play it.

Fiery Phoenix · Mar 13, 2020

Pryme said:
Posts like this display a complete lack of empathy for the people and their families suffering crunch.
the tweetstorm in itself is part of an overarching conversation set in motion by Jason's exposé. It wasn't just made out of the blues.

You're right. I apologize. I've since read the rest of it.

Sausage_Poison · Mar 13, 2020

Yikes! And the string of bad Sony publicity continues.
If he is this angry, either there is something very wrong with how things are being managed within the studio or he was heavily wronged while he was inside. Either way, it does not paint a good picture about how things are working inside ND.

Arthands · Mar 13, 2020

fade said:
As if all other big publishers dont have the deep pockets. Activision doesn't have those pockets? EA doesn't have those pockets? MS doesn't have those pockets? Also, if a more senior team would have delivered the game a year ago wouldn't that made the crunch even worse or is he advocating cutting corners?

this misread of the topic is so terrible its not funny.

He's saying that the culture is so bad that the game sees unnecessary delay due to high turnover rate, burnout, and other reasons. If the culture is much better managed, work will have been more efficiently done by everyone and the delay will be significantly reduced.

mxbison · Mar 13, 2020

martincrimson87 said:
This thread and the HZD related ones convinced me that Reset Era is the largest Sony fanboy hive on the internet. Standing up for ND practices ffs...

I haven't seen anyone standing up for these practices (also didn't read the whole thread though).

But saying its just money and not talent is pretty much just shitting on the people who work there and makes you wonder why other devs with the same budget and crunch don't consistently put out amazing games like ND then.

Amir Mirzaee · Mar 13, 2020

Timlot said:
This caught my attention...

"Ultimately, ND's linear games have a formula and they focus-test the shit out of them."

They once did a GDC talk on that.

They make sure everyone, I mean like EVERYONE, are going to like that game.

And not by designing a fun gameplay loop or telling a story they want to tell as artists, but by making sure that what they've made stimulates all the right parts in people's brains.

And considering the amount of money that goes in each Naughty Dog game and the massive audience that they've targeted, I'd say it's the right thing to do.

icecold1983 · Mar 13, 2020

I was under the impression ND games dont have particularly large budgets or huge amts of people compared to other aaa studios. Hard to see that as the defining reason their games continually outclass the vast majority of the industry.

TAJ · Mar 13, 2020

Amir Mirzaee said:
They once did a GDC talk on that.

They make sure everyone, I mean like EVERYONE, are going to like that game.

And not by designing a fun gameplay loop or telling a story they want to tell as artists, but by making sure that what they've made stimulates all the right parts in people's brains.

And considering the amount of money that goes in each Naughty Dog game and the massive audience that they've targeted, I'd say it's the right thing to do.

I remember seeing a video about the focus testing of the Halo 2 campaign and thinking "Oh, so THAT'S why the campaign was awful.".
The Uncharted games are decent at their worst, though.

Arthands · Mar 13, 2020

mxbison said:
I haven't seen anyone standing up for these practices (also didn't read the whole thread though).

But saying its just money and not talent is pretty much just shitting on the people who work there and makes you wonder why other devs with the same budget and crunch don't consistently put out amazing games like ND then.

He didnt say there isn't talent. In fact he said the opposite. He is saying the success isnt only because they are talented, but also Sony's deep pocket gives room to the delay caused by the toxic culture.

Haze · Mar 13, 2020

RivalGT said:
He comes off as an ass when he says he only wants to work with the best.

Jesus fucking Christ. How has this thread been up for almost 12 hours and people are still completely misrepresenting his points.

Kaswa101 · Mar 13, 2020

Tiago Rodrigues said:
Humor me...what would be the other reasons?

Personally I'm not a fan of the edgelord gore fest that everything has been pointing to so far. And that whole controversy about ND forcing its developers to watch detailed vulgar content to accurately capture the violence. And now this.

Also in general, I never wanted a sequel to TLOU. Still seems unnecessary to me, so they can keep it lol

Laughing Banana · Mar 13, 2020

fade said:
As if all other big publishers dont have the deep pockets. Activision doesn't have those pockets? EA doesn't have those pockets? MS doesn't have those pockets? Also, if a more senior team would have delivered the game a year ago wouldn't that made the crunch even worse or is he advocating cutting corners?

The point.

You.

Arthands · Mar 13, 2020

Haze said:
Jesus fucking Christ. How has this thread been up for almost 12 hours and people are still completely misrepresenting his points.

I am starting to think some are fanboys deliberately misrepresenting his words here.

Lyng · Mar 13, 2020

If this thread had been about Blizzard / Bethesda or EA we wouldn't see this insane amount of corporate shills.

Bansai · Mar 13, 2020

Lant_War said:

JFC... last time I hear about shit like that was during the whole Bioware fiasco.

WTF is wrong with those studios...

KillLaCam · Mar 13, 2020

Thats pretty obvious. Devs at the Sony studios arent just magically better than everyone else

Bold One · Mar 13, 2020

Bansai said:
JFC... last time I hear about shit like that was during the whole Bioware fiasco.

WTF is wrong with those studios...

When you stack enough awards you start getting high on your own supply.

Spark · Mar 13, 2020

fade said:
As if all other big publishers dont have the deep pockets. Activision doesn't have those pockets? EA doesn't have those pockets? MS doesn't have those pockets? Also, if a more senior team would have delivered the game a year ago wouldn't that made the crunch even worse or is he advocating cutting corners?

Just maybe a more senior team wouldn't have overworked their employees to the point of hospitalisation.

Arion · Mar 13, 2020

Amir Mirzaee said:
They once did a GDC talk on that.

They make sure everyone, I mean like EVERYONE, are going to like that game.

And not by designing a fun gameplay loop or telling a story they want to tell as artists, but by making sure that what they've made stimulates all the right parts in people's brains.

And considering the amount of money that goes in each Naughty Dog game and the massive audience that they've targeted, I'd say it's the right thing to do.

oh damn, i didn't realise all the fun i had with naughty dog games was because my brain was being simulated and not because those games were actually fun.

Pryme · Mar 13, 2020

fade said:
As if all other big publishers dont have the deep pockets. Activision doesn't have those pockets? EA doesn't have those pockets? MS doesn't have those pockets? Also, if a more senior team would have delivered the game a year ago wouldn't that made the crunch even worse or is he advocating cutting corners?

Would it hurt you to read the OP? To show some empathy for the people suffering to make the game? Is this a deliberate thing to focus on one out of context tweet instead of looking at the whole thread for context?

And no, the point about a more senior team speaks to improve efficiency, reduced rework etc as a means to deliver faster and better.

SpaceCrystal · Mar 13, 2020

Braag said:
This site is very pro Playstation. If this was Rockstar or CDPR or some other big studio which has been in the "crunch news" before, their graves would have been dug by now.

On topic, I always find it disgusting when a company tries to silence its employees about the company's work culture. I've worked in places like that in a different field. If you don't have anything to hide you wouldn't try to silence your employees.

martincrimson87 said:
This thread and the HZD related ones convinced me that Reset Era is the largest Sony fanboy hive on the internet. Standing up for ND practices ffs...

Galactic Specter said:
Who would've thought a thread discussing poor working conditions at AAA game studio would actually have console loyalists defending the practice.

Of course it would be Naughty Dog/Playstation that would elicit such a fierce response.

It's not just this site, but mostly everywhere else, too. They treat Sony like the second coming as if they can never do anything wrong. It's disgusting.

SigSig · Mar 13, 2020

Amir Mirzaee said:
They make sure everyone, I mean like EVERYONE, are going to like that game.

And not by designing a fun gameplay loop or telling a story they want to tell as artists, but by making sure that what they've made stimulates all the right parts in people's brains.

And considering the amount of money that goes in each Naughty Dog game and the massive audience that they've targeted, I'd say it's the right thing to do.

TIL why I don't care about NDs recent output, huh. I assumed they were targeting the lowest common denominator, but I didn't think their entire development cycle was based on that.

RivalGT · Mar 13, 2020

Haze said:
Jesus fucking Christ. How has this thread been up for almost 12 hours and people are still completely misrepresenting his points.

I don't have any issues with what he said or his thoughts on the subject at hand here. I would have pointed that out if I did though. What he said is there for everyone to read, me saying he's an ass doesn't make him wrong.

Khanimus · Mar 13, 2020

omark said:
?????????

1 year ago

Almost like people, after they leave an organization/relationship/living situation etc., gain some perspective on how shitty it actually was. That they see the shit they dismissed or excused isn't actually okay, and that the industry knows it can exploit "passion" at the expense of its workers' well-being.

Really crazy stuff, I know!

VeePs · Mar 13, 2020

Lyng said:
If this thread had been about Blizzard / Bethesda or EA we wouldn't see this insane amount of corporate shills.

You're not wrong.

timrtabor123 · Mar 13, 2020

Nocturne said:
kind of weird to highlight this tweet specifically when the majority of his thread is about naughty dog's terrible work practices and failures in talent retention or managing crunch

My thoughts as well. Morbidly funny for me to see people lose the forests for the tree here just to dunk on the dude because "lol salty exemployee" is such low hanging fruit.

Nappuccino · Mar 13, 2020

I'm a big ND fanboy, and I have no excuses for them. The work culture, at least in certain divisions, seems in need of immediate correction.

Shinrou · Mar 13, 2020

Lyng said:
If this thread had been about Blizzard / Bethesda or EA we wouldn't see this insane amount of corporate shills.

My thoughts exactly.

RockmanBN · Mar 13, 2020

Lyng said:
If this thread had been about Blizzard / Bethesda or EA we wouldn't see this insane amount of corporate shills.

Naughty God!

jukeboxhero2396 · Mar 13, 2020

not surprising. video game industry is rough as hell.

Arkanim94 · Mar 13, 2020

The corporate shilling in this thread is downright scary, damn.

SinkFla · Mar 13, 2020

While it's good to hold studio heads and companies accountable for this shit, I think it's a sightly insular train of thought. This entire country's labor laws need to be remastered (see wut I done do there?) and revamped to protect employees of all kinds. I always see crunch used in relation to game development but it's a ubiquitous problem and not mutually exclusive. Until real checks and balances are put into place companies will always work their staff to the bone if it means maximum return and minimal expense. I'm honestly shocked more game devs haven't opened studios where I live since it's an "at will/right to work" state. Our lack of legislation would probably make Rockstar heads salivate.

SinCityAssassin · Mar 13, 2020

I see this discussion is going just swimmingly.

Cyborg · Mar 13, 2020

This is bad! Poor management and so sad to see the direction this industry is marching towards.

That being said you have always the right to leave your job if company's culture doesn't fit.

Venuslulu · Mar 13, 2020

The new "Grounded" documentary is going to be litttt

Ex-Naughty Dog animator: "ND's games success is due in large part to Sony's deep pocket funding delays rather than skill alone"

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