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Who's Going to Win South Carolina?

  • Joe Biden

    Votes: 585 39.2%
  • Bernie Sanders

    Votes: 853 57.2%
  • Elizabeth Warren

    Votes: 24 1.6%
  • Pete Buttigieg

    Votes: 7 0.5%
  • THE KLOBBERER

    Votes: 16 1.1%
  • Tom Steyer

    Votes: 6 0.4%

  • Total voters
    1,491
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Terra Firma

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,235
A lot of middle class liberals legitimately think they're current health care plan is better in quality than M4A will, and they're simply not going to believe you that their taxes going up is worth it, and that their coverage will be better because of it. I also think a lot of middle class liberals would agree that the current field isn't all that great, but they wouldn't consider that a positive for Bernie.

Putting that aside, I'm going to take Adam's post from PoliERA about what he's personally wary of Medicare for All, as he' somebody who is a parent with a child with lots of health care issues, who has a husband that's part of a union, that doesn't support M4A.

"You mean like the Union benefits specifically? That would vary from group to group. So, I can speak to what my husband and I have. We pay nothing for our coverage. It's all part of the negotiated package through the union. It covers all of us (my husband, myself and our 6 kids). Our out of pocket maximum is a little over $12,000. Once we reach that, we pay nothing. (And with my son's MS, we reach that by January 14th of each year.) Based on what we earn, Bernie's 4.4% tax would increase our healthcare costs by about $4000 a year. Again, we are very fortunate in what we make., and I am 100% aware of that. But , like I said, my son has a ton of medical issues and we are huge consumers of healthcare. Our insurance covers all of his treatments now, including drugs that are simply not covered by Medicare/Medicaid. The gamble of M4A is too great for someone like me. My son's treatments are the difference between him being a normal healthy kid or ending up in a wheelchair by the time he's 20. There are a lot of folks like me who simply do not want to gamble with what we currently have.

The bigger issue though as it relates to some union members is they have negotiated their healthcare coverage. They may have done this in exchange for agreeing to take less of a raise, etc. While that certainly will eventually be a thing of the past, they're going to get screwed RIGHT NOW by ripping away their healthcare coverage and forcing them on M4A. I think there is a lot of justified fear and anxiety. The one thing I'm surprised Pete and Klob and Biden haven't used is to argue that if you go with M4A and the GOP gets in...you're putting your healthcare in the hands of Republicans. To me, that would be a big effective attack on the idea. But maybe that's just me.

Ya, we would pay more under Bernie 's plan. But that's not my sole opposition. And I'm definitely aware of the changes Bernie wants to make to Medicare. The issue is there are no countries in the world doing what he's arguing for. You have to have cost controls, so you either ration care or deny treatments that aren't cost effective. The drugs my son are on are not ones that are covered by Medicare our Medicaid at the moment. What Bernie is asking is to trust that the government won't screw with my kids care. That's a huge ask, and it's not something I'm willing to gamble with. "

Again, maybe you disagree with that, but there are reasonable reasons to oppose M4A for example, while not wanting poor people to die.
That is a very privileged response. He's not okay with his son maybe, possibly receiving slightly less care (which he can compensate for, considering his high income) but is perfectly fine with the poors or the unemployed dying?

I mean, he basically tells you how much he and his partner earn. He pays $12k max currently and under Bernie, his costs would increase $4k, for a total of $16k. $16K is 4.4% of ~$360,000/year and he doesn't think M4A is okay because he'll have to pay out of pocket while there are millions who are uninsured or underinsured who are going bankrupt if not outright dying due to not being able to pay for their medical expenses.

Not to mention the fact that Bernie has said that he'll bring down pharma costs. Furthermore, if you need to go to a hospital for drugs, medicare covers that so M4A would also cover inpatient drugs.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
12% of Americans are living at the poverty line.
Figure-1.-Poverty-Rates-by-Race-and-Ethnicity-1966-2018-820x490.png

Despite stock market highs and low unemployment, poverty in the U.S. is pervasive. The number of people earning less than $25,750 for a family of four is rising in both Republican and Democratic districts, and across racial and geographic lines.
www.brookings.edu

Addressing poverty can heal an increasingly divided country | Brookings

Combatting poverty is a way to unite the country through a common goal.

So while its sad for anyone's kid to be vulnerable to shocks to the healthcare system, I can't possibly believe that the people in Adam's position can outvote 12% of America. Even if they turn out at 100% and the "poors" only turn out at 10%, the raw numerical advantage is with the poors. The only way you can overcome that kind of advantage is with EC fuckery and/or vote suppression.
 
Last edited:

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
44% of Americans are living at the poverty line.


www.brookings.edu

Addressing poverty can heal an increasingly divided country | Brookings

Combatting poverty is a way to unite the country through a common goal.

So while its sad for anyone's kid to be vulnerable to shocks to the healthcare system, I can't possibly believe that the people in Aaron's position can outvote 44% of America. Even if they turn out at 100% and the "poors" only turn out at 10%, the raw numerical advantage is with the poors. The only way you can overcome that kind of advantage is with EC fuckery.
For the record Sayomed, I believe what you're citing is Adam's post not Aarons.
 
May 30, 2018
1,255
Love seeing #resistance Twitter freak out at Bernie's success, can't wait until he is the nom
ah yes, the people who think if you tweet on a stroll you're walking the walk

I love how bernie makes all the right people mad, his ability to get people to expose themselves is second to none
There's a non-zero section of the liberal base who really are just the right wing stereotype of performative wokeness and they're intent on exposing themselves as Bernie's chances grows. I love to see it.

My favorite part of this primary is seeing the Pundits and Randos with Blue Checkmarks who are high on their own supply melting down as Bernie's campaign continues to surge

I have seen people who unironically called themselves part of the Establishment🤣
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
User banned (1 week): ignoring the modpost, hostility and sniping
A lot of middle class liberals legitimately think they're current health care plan is better in quality than M4A will, and they're simply not going to believe you that their taxes going up is worth it, and that their coverage will be better because of it. I also think a lot of middle class liberals would agree that the current field isn't all that great, but they wouldn't consider that a positive for Bernie.

Putting that aside, I'm going to take Adam's post from PoliERA about what he's personally wary of Medicare for All, as he' somebody who is a parent with a child with lots of health care issues, who has a husband that's part of a union, that doesn't support M4A.

"You mean like the Union benefits specifically? That would vary from group to group. So, I can speak to what my husband and I have. We pay nothing for our coverage. It's all part of the negotiated package through the union. It covers all of us (my husband, myself and our 6 kids). Our out of pocket maximum is a little over $12,000. Once we reach that, we pay nothing. (And with my son's MS, we reach that by January 14th of each year.) Based on what we earn, Bernie's 4.4% tax would increase our healthcare costs by about $4000 a year. Again, we are very fortunate in what we make., and I am 100% aware of that. But , like I said, my son has a ton of medical issues and we are huge consumers of healthcare. Our insurance covers all of his treatments now, including drugs that are simply not covered by Medicare/Medicaid. The gamble of M4A is too great for someone like me. My son's treatments are the difference between him being a normal healthy kid or ending up in a wheelchair by the time he's 20. There are a lot of folks like me who simply do not want to gamble with what we currently have.

The bigger issue though as it relates to some union members is they have negotiated their healthcare coverage. They may have done this in exchange for agreeing to take less of a raise, etc. While that certainly will eventually be a thing of the past, they're going to get screwed RIGHT NOW by ripping away their healthcare coverage and forcing them on M4A. I think there is a lot of justified fear and anxiety. The one thing I'm surprised Pete and Klob and Biden haven't used is to argue that if you go with M4A and the GOP gets in...you're putting your healthcare in the hands of Republicans. To me, that would be a big effective attack on the idea. But maybe that's just me.

Ya, we would pay more under Bernie 's plan. But that's not my sole opposition. And I'm definitely aware of the changes Bernie wants to make to Medicare. The issue is there are no countries in the world doing what he's arguing for. You have to have cost controls, so you either ration care or deny treatments that aren't cost effective. The drugs my son are on are not ones that are covered by Medicare our Medicaid at the moment. What Bernie is asking is to trust that the government won't screw with my kids care. That's a huge ask, and it's not something I'm willing to gamble with. "

Again, maybe you disagree with that, but there are reasonable reasons to oppose M4A for example, while not wanting poor people to die.
I respect Adam's honesty, but the only reason why his healthcare would slightly cost more would be because he's making over $330k a year. For the vast majority of Americans, their healthcare will be significantly cheaper.

We're talking about taxes being 4% after $29k of your income is exempt.

edit: Actually at 4.4% for it to be $4k more in health care expenses, he would need to be making over $390k a year.

Look I totally sympathise with the poor, the minorities, the transgender community in the US who die completely avoidable deaths each day because of the broken healthcare system.

I'm totally an ally.

But like, won't someone think of a household like mine that barely makes a thousand dollars a day? What if we only made 975 dollars a day and all the poors got healthcare while my family and I continue to be covered for everything?

I totally sympathise with the poors and people of colour won't find a stronger ally than I ( I watch Drag Race for crying out loud!) but being able to walk into a hospital when you're dying and just, you know, have a doctor see you and treat you is a bit too radical for me.


Oh and speaking of good union health insurance, everybody should take a look at this twitter thread:

 

Deleted member 7572

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,041
The biggest DINOs would have their numbers improve if they're seen butting heads with the Presidency, they'd use it for advertisements. And that's at best. At worst you drive someone like a Manchin out of the party and never get to replace him.
Ojeda doubled his poll numbers against the wife of one of the most well known men in the state.

He can (and eventually will) replace him.
 

GameChanger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,935
My mom had never voted in her life. She is completely oblivious to the politics of our country. She voted for Bernie Sanders today. My dad and brother who have also never voted in their lives will be voting for him in the next few days. Things are definitely very different this time around in my family and their social circle. I know a lot of freaking people that will be voting for the first time in their lives and they will be voting for Sanders. A lot of these people think their vote doesn't even matter but they are still voting just to send a message.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Ojeda doubled his poll numbers against the wife of one of the most well known men in the state.

He can (and eventually will) replace him.
Ojeda is actually a dino. Like, he's pro second amendment, a self-proclaimed Trump supporter, and is pro-life. This isn't an example you actually want to use. Also, his views on rolling back environmental regulation...
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,254
Sydney
See, that's actually an out of context deal where he said even if taxes on the rich were raised a ton nothing about their quality of life would change.

... Which is accurate.

Oh I know what the context is, how do you think it comes across though?

Especially when he's the author of a lot of problems people are experiencing in the first place.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,318
New York City
44% of Americans are living at the poverty line.


www.brookings.edu

Addressing poverty can heal an increasingly divided country | Brookings

Combatting poverty is a way to unite the country through a common goal.

So while its sad for anyone's kid to be vulnerable to shocks to the healthcare system, I can't possibly believe that the people in Adam's position can outvote 44% of America. Even if they turn out at 100% and the "poors" only turn out at 10%, the raw numerical advantage is with the poors. The only way you can overcome that kind of advantage is with EC fuckery and/or vote suppression.
Unfortunately every election is rife with both of those things.
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
Someone making that much complaining about M4A is some real Fuck You, Got Mine audacity. Some well off people on this board are incredibly out of touch.

yep. When I see people bash M4A i definitely give a side eye. The democrats left people like me out of being adequately covered where I can't afford a monthly supply of insulin. I'm now supposed to trust those same democrats and anyone saying "there are better ways than what Bernie is offering, it's all pie in the sky it will never pass!" Basically admitting that whatever plan they have that can pass will probably still leave people like me with shit coverage.

It's fuck you got mine. The democratic version. These people aren't on my side and don't give a fuck about people like me.
 

turtle553

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,255
Thanks for reposting "fuck you got mine" agitprop from an extremely privileged person, but 99.9% aren't in anything like this situation, which is probably why M4A support polls at 70% nationwide

But that 70% support is a lot of people that think they'll be able to keep their own insurance. Popularity goes down when clarified that private insurance would be eliminated.

26-health-care-chart.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg


The public option is still very popular.
 

Deleted member 7572

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,041
Ojeda is actually a dino. Like, he's pro second amendment, a self-proclaimed Trump supporter, and is pro-life. This isn't an example you actually want to use.
You're never going to get someone from WV who isn't pro-second amendment. We kinda have a history of actually having to kill coal barons. He's also since renounced Trump after admitting that he was wrong about the outsider rhetoric.

The pro life thing isn't accurate either, as he's rallied for WV Free, and:

theintercept.com

Richard Ojeda Comes Out Swinging on Abortion Rights

2020 presidential candidate Richard Ojeda: “Rich women have always had access to the care that they want or need and they always will.”
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
Who's saying that nothing should change?

Most of the political establishment - not limited to the US, I'm talking about my country as well. And those defeatists who would rationalize not being able to get nice things before even trying. The US has a golden opportunity to have a real challenger to the status quo who a) has a chance to win, b) has actual progressive convictions, c) seems to be hard to corrupt. That's the kind of perfect storm you don't wanna miss. Maybe I'm just naive, but for the first time in my 30+ years of life, I see a candidate that actually looks like they'll fight to the death to get things done. In a country whose politics affects all of us, no less. If I were American, I'd vote in a heartbeat. Can't say that's ever happened to me before. That's a much needed breath of fresh air. We need the hope.

Does that mean said president will be able to accomplish even half of their agenda? I doubt it. It is, after all, a broken system, and 4 years is a short time. But I'd rather they give it a shot anyway and steer the discourse towards more substantial change. All candidates would either have to compromise anyway, or have an an agenda that's aligned with the status quo to begin with. Better start from with (somewhat) lofty demands to get anything at all than engage in limp-wristed bargaining before the fight even begins.

Tl;dr: Argue from a position of power. Ask "what if?". Say "we want". Don't say "but... but... but...". Don't be submissive. Dare to be optimistic.
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,537
I think thats incorrect. I think its closer to 44 million americans, not 44%.

Its closer to 10-13%

Which is still a fuck ton for america to be great again. 🙄 the poverty line is 12k a year for a single person. I couldnt imagine surving on that.
It's referring to workers
"More than 53 million people—44% of all workers aged 18-64—are low-wage workers by our criteria. They earn median hourly wages of $10.22 and median annual earnings of $17,950."
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,902
Every Bush-Era, neo-con, Never Trump Republican is parading around the editorial pages of the major newspapers today calling on Obama to save their party.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,429
But that 70% support is a lot of people that think they'll be able to keep their own insurance. Popularity goes down when clarified that private insurance would be eliminated.

26-health-care-chart.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg


The public option is still very popular.

Fortunately, Socialist Bae AOC agrees that a public option would not be the end of the world.
 

turtle553

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,255
Do people bash m4a because they don't want it? or do they bash it because the feel it's a losing policy position?

I think a lot of people are pessimistic that a government plan would be both cheaper and better for them, seems like too big a promise. Being risk averse, people don't want to lose what they have for something they don't think will be better. That may be rational or not. More people think that there is no way even 51 democrats in the Senate will support it and it will never happen, so why waste that energy when other options may be able to get everyone covered much quicker and a true M4A plan can be enacted once people see how good a plan the government can provide.
 

Terra Firma

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,235
Ojeda is actually a dino. Like, he's pro second amendment, a self-proclaimed Trump supporter, and is pro-life. This isn't an example you actually want to use. Also, his views on rolling back environmental regulation...
Checking out his Twitter, he doesn't seem like a Trump fan. I only heard about the guy briefly when he was running for office at some level but dropped out soon.
 

Bad_Boy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
I had to double check my own numbers and yes this is correct.
400px-Number_in_Poverty_and_Poverty_Rate%2C_1959_to_2017.png
But to add to the previous point...
Aprox 50% of americans make less than 30k.

Thats also an insane fucking number. Most importantly all those people will directly be affected positively by voting for bernie.

It's referring to workers
"More than 53 million people—44% of all workers aged 18-64—are low-wage workers by our criteria. They earn median hourly wages of $10.22 and median annual earnings of $17,950."
Ah now that makes sense.

Bernie will help those who cant work due to medical reasons get help too, so that number should change as well.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Calling Ojeda a self-proclaimed Trump supporter when hes been extremely clear about the reasons behind his former support of Trump is not great
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,748
I beleive half of the country earns 30k or less a year. Add up the cost of housing, healthcare, food, etc.... yeah that many people are in the gutter.

About 60% have 40 thousand of income a year or less. Which depending on where you live ranges from I can't live on this at all to one bad emergency and were going into financial ruin.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,149
That is a very privileged response. He's not okay with his son maybe, possibly receiving slightly less care (which he can compensate for, considering his high income) but is perfectly fine with the poors or the unemployed dying?

I mean, he basically tells you how much he and his partner earn. He pays $12k max currently and under Bernie, his costs would increase $4k, for a total of $16k. $16K is 4.4% of ~$360,000/year and he doesn't think M4A is okay because he'll have to pay out of pocket while there are millions who are uninsured or underinsured who are going bankrupt if not outright dying due to not being able to pay for their medical expenses.

Not to mention the fact that Bernie has said that he'll bring down pharma costs. Furthermore, if you need to go to a hospital for drugs, medicare covers that so M4A would also cover inpatient drugs.

First, having a child that needs help, regardless of income, isn't a privilege.

Second, 4.4% of income going towards healthcare isn't that bad, considering my plan has me paying about 12% of my position's cost, and that is just the premium side of things. It is a high deductible plan that doesn't cover anything until I reach the 3k deductible. So I have to end up paying more before I can even use it.

Third, Bernie does need to do a better job at talking about what M4A means totally, what coverage it has, etc. The last 4 years or so, he has mostly just been making the moral side of the case, and listing off numbers.
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,537
I wonder if Pete is wondering why his strategy of going after one demographic that would only help him win the least populous states is not working
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,365
I'd say the narrative of Biden being in #2 could make SC a tight race, but lol he's still got less than half the votes Bernie does.

It's still his best finish in a primary ever.

EDIT: Also, if Bernie seriously finishes with over 40% of the votes, it's time to kill the "he has a ceiling" narrative. Kill it dead.
 

KidAAlbum

Member
Nov 18, 2017
3,181
Polling in public option frames the question around the idea that you're losing something you like. It's valid because reality is that those dishonest attacks exist, but it's also not complete because you could also ask the question around "whatever you like about your private insurance be it close ERs, not paying much money, having dental, having eyewear care, liking your doctor, etc... will likely exist under M4A." Polling is never done with the most accurate choices in this debate. Only then could we truly see what people actually prefer.

Likely, I don't remember any candidates proposing a healthcare system like Germany, Japan, and France where their "insurance companies" are social sickness funds. Is any candidate proposing turning these companies into those German, Japanese, and French equivalents? No.

The debate isn't single payer vs multipayer from France, Germany, and Japan. The debate is single payer vs public option competing with the powerful rich insurance companies. Sure you'll reduce their power with the public option because it would be cheaper, but the insurance companies can lobby for their plans being superior, and have much more wealth than say the insurance companies from Netherlands.
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,537
I'd say the narrative of Biden being in #2 could make SC a tight race, but lol he's still got less than half the votes Bernie does.

It's still his best finish in a primary ever.

EDIT: Also, if Bernie seriously finishes with over 40% of the votes, it's time to kill the "he has a ceiling" narrative. Kill it dead.
He has a ceiling of 100%
 

Sean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Longview
Which is still a fuck ton for america to be great again. 🙄 the poverty line is 12k a year for a single person. I couldnt imagine surving on that.

It's hard. You find and use whatever you can. Stuff like the Obamaphone program and food stamps, both of which I use. You try to be as frugal as possible while still finding some way to escape the bullshit. I sacrifice doing a *lot* to afford new games and to just keep up with conversations with friends and try to have some semblance of relevance. It's hard to not feel isolated when you can't afford to do things that others take for granted. I haven't bought new shoes in years. I'm using some jeans I found in a dresser that belonged to my dead dad (who was a monster). Movie pass things have been an absolute blessing for me thankfully, though due to my problems going to the theater is always painful. I'm also living completely "paycheck to paycheck" while struggling to get the last of my debt under control and clawing out a way to actually "live". I spend on some things I shouldn't and I know I shouldn't, but I'd just be completely miserable otherwise. I'm afraid of going to the doctor. I'll never be able to fix some of my teeth and feel normal about that either. There's always a mountain of anxiety.
 
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