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Ximonz

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,468
Taiwan
ok this might trigger some Celeste fans

so I love platformers, especially Mario series, love Mario Maker 2 with 400 hours of playtime.
heard people say great things about this game Celeste so I bought it, played around 12 hours.

when I reached summit in Ch.7 I thought it is a good game,
with a lot of complains though, but still enjoyable.
and then Ch.9 and all the side-Bs happened.
currently working on side-Bs to get to the second half of Ch.9, but I have a question.

Is this game really overwhelmingly great as people say? (according to Steam reviews that is)

this game is literally SPIKE : The Game
the level design becomes atrocious and tedious to play.
every screen is filled with spike, lots of blind jumps,
things people hate in Mario Maker 2 such as wind and dark levels, yup we got it.
you are asked to perform very specific jumps constructively with little knowledge of what is ahead,
(binocular help a little, but there are a lot of sections without it)
you are asked to perform constructive air wavedashs with springs throw you around
you are asked to perform jumps/wavedashs with very tight timing and reaction time.
I don't think harder instantly equal good level design.
and I enjoyed some MM2 levels with 0.5% clear rate.

My biggest problem with this game is that it overuses all its cool idea.
you've successfully done the trick 5 times? good, here are another 50 times.
I get it, new cool ideas in platformers are hard to come up, but you don't have to spam them in your game.
Jelly air jump is cool, maybe it's your "shell jump"
first 5 times is cool, but it is very annoying for the 50th time.
and then the levels drag as long as they can without nothing really new, just harder, tighter jumps, more ridiculous reaction time.
everytime I reach next screen I can't help but think "there is more????" instead of "I wish the level is longer because it is fun"
infact I feel I had more fun playing Mario Maker levels, at least there are more variety and creative ideas.
It made me appreciate of Mario Team's level designs more to be honest.

Celeste is the very definition of a game overstayed its welcome.

here is my current progress, I keep going because I wanna see the end of the story,
and I feel if I don't complete at least Ch.9, I can't call myself a platformer lover...
yuYLpVx.jpg
 

ThisOne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,941
It's okay if you don't like it. I found the challenge to be really reasonable. It is a hard game but I really felt myself getting better at it which was a good feeling.
 

mikhailguy

Banned
Jun 20, 2019
1,967
I buy that take, even though I liked it. Whenever I replay it, the ghost hotel feels really drawn out.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,671
I don't understand why you're searching for and playing the B-Sides if your problems are length and too many spikes
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,019
yeah, i kinda agree. i stopped at the cave after the messy hotel cause it started feeling a bit too ridiculous. even with assists i couldnt really do it
 

stumblebee

The Fallen
Jan 22, 2018
2,509
only thing i didn't like was how they gated the epilogue behind a damn near 100% completion of the game. I was able to skip past the floor and beat it regardless tho
 

Xeteh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,395
Am I misunderstanding or are you frustrated that a game is taking too long to end while you're searching for and playing the optional remix-levels?
 

Miamiwesker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,693
Miami
I start the game, play a few hours then stop, I have yet to finish it. It's the super meat boy style platforming which is fun and thrilling at times but yeah when stages last so long and things get so repetitive I felt more like you "more?" rather than a Mario game where I am usually wanting "more!"
 

DoradoWinston

Member
Apr 9, 2019
6,324
the game is for sure too long imo. would have been great if cut in half i feel tbh

edit: oh and yeah gating the epilogue for a 100% completion is so lame, i had spent that much time just give me the last bit please because I for sure wont go back and play everything again
 
OP
OP
Ximonz

Ximonz

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,468
Taiwan
Am I misunderstanding or are you frustrated that a game is taking too long to end while you're searching for and playing the optional remix-levels?
I don't understand why you're searching for and playing the B-Sides if your problems are length and too many spikes
well as someone mentioned if you wanna see the end of the story (second half of Ch.9)
you have to complete B-sides
 

Vibed

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,512
Don't do Farewell before you finish all the B and C sides! That sounds like hell.

Either way, the quick pace makes retrying not such a big deal. It becomes an endurance test in muscle memory, which appeals to some more than others.
 

Crayolan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,796
I don't necessarily disagree with the game maybe asking you to do the same difficult jump a little too many times in a single screen (mainly in Chapter 9), but I don't think overstaying it's welcome is the right way to describe it. Everything past Chapter 7 is optional and meant for people looking for completionists and people looking for a challenge.

Still I really like the level design in Celeste for the most part, but yea it does try to get as much mileage out of every mechanic as it possibly can.
 

IronicSonic

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,639
I loved the 10 hours I spent on the game. I don't know If I want to play the game again though.

I don't know If Celeste has good level desing. If It has bad level desing, the ability to start again inmediately helps a lot
 

metsallica

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,809
I felt the same way. Loved what I played but dropped it after a few hours. It just got to be way too much, and I didn't want to play with the assists. I didn't find the progression well balanced.
 

ClockworkOwl

Banned
Feb 1, 2020
115
I can't relate. I had more fun with the B and C sides than I did the A side. The game was wonderful from beginning to end.

The B Side Ghost Hotel did drag a little though. I'll concede that point.
 

hikarutilmitt

"This guy are sick"
Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,501
You made it further than I did, and not from difficulty. I just found the stages were using a new ability once, then again, then nothing interesting or new. It was almost pedestrian at times with its level design.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,864
I agree. Still haven't finished it. Enjoyed a lot of it, but didn't feel compelled to keep going.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,999
Yeah, I thought that the post-game stuff was a total slog

It's still a great game, but I really don't see why people here are so enamored with it
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
The game is great if you treat Summit as the true end of the game. I hated the postgame content, other than farming for Berries.

I was really bummed to see that they made the plot conclusion DLC aimed exclusively at the people that wanted to do the B-sides and heart hunting. Just not for me.
 

Manu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,191
Buenos Aires, Argentina
I agree. Still haven't finished it. Enjoyed a lot of it, but didn't feel compelled to keep going.
Same. I pick up my Switch every few months, beat a few levels and I'm like "yep that's it for now" and then it's months again before I feel like coming back.

Like whenever I pick the game back up I'm like "oh so this is why I stopped last time, right."
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,654
Celeste is fine, but I've noticed a similar trends happening in the Mario Maker community too - conflating "hard/precise" with "good". Which isn't to say it's automatically bad, but difficulty does not a good level make, yet it seems like for at least a part of platforming, that's where things are trending. Stuff like needing to follow *exactly* the right steps and move *exactly* here at *exactly* this time winds up feeling less like a level a player is working their way through, but rather a really unclear QTE for players to stumble through until they unlock the correct move sequence.

I wonder if it's possible to make super challenging level design in a platformer without simply cranking up the "precision" knob, but until then, the current trend is a little annoying.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,864
Same. I pick up my Switch every few months, beat a few levels and I'm like "yep that's it for now" and then it's months again before I feel like coming back.

Like whenever I pick the game back up I'm like "oh so this is why I stopped last time, right."
Lol. Yeah, that accurately describes the last time I played.
 

bounchfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,684
Muricas
I mean I beat it and only did a few b sides and called it quits. It's still easily the best 2d platformer I've played in 20 years. All the content past that is icing on the cake to me. And hell for a lot of the harder core people's that's when the game is just starting. So it's got a lot for everyone imo and doesn't really force you to do anything more than you'd like
 

jb1234

Very low key
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,245
It's amazing but the postgame is definitely not for everyone. Chapter 9 in particular is extremely punishing.
 
OP
OP
Ximonz

Ximonz

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,468
Taiwan
Celeste is fine, but I've noticed a similar trends happening in the Mario Maker community too - conflating "hard/precise" with "good". Which isn't to say it's automatically bad, but difficulty does not a good level make, yet it seems like for at least a part of platforming, that's where things are trending. Stuff like needing to follow *exactly* the right steps and move *exactly* here at *exactly* this time winds up feeling less like a level a player is working their way through, but rather a really unclear QTE for players to stumble through until they unlock the correct move sequence.

I wonder if it's possible to make super challenging level design in a platformer without simply cranking up the "precision" knob, but until then, the current trend is a little annoying.
I agree with this,
but there are more leeway in lots of hard (below 1% clear rate) SMM2 levels compare to Celeste,
and they are more creative, cool, and fun.
 

sheaaaa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,556
I don't understand why you're searching for and playing the B-Sides if your problems are length and too many spikes
Am I misunderstanding or are you frustrated that a game is taking too long to end while you're searching for and playing the optional remix-levels?

Yeah seriously lol

You beat the game dude. B and C sides are for gluttons of punishment and people that just want more.

This! You finished the game. Everything else - even the "story" you think is coming - is extra for people who want more. Complaining about there being more game is silly.
 

Trisc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,491
Vanilla Celeste is damn near perfect. A superbly challenging platformer with almost no fat on the main course. For folks satisfied with the storyline, you'll certainly get your money's worth. If you're into a bit more challenge, the B-sides are perfect. And I've been told there's even harder levels, though I'm not keen on finding out.

What soured me on the game a bit was the post-launch content demanding an awful lot more out of players so they could see the resolution of the story. I understand there's optional settings to make the game easier, but I really did want a challenge. I just didn't appreciate the challenge I got, and didn't feel like altering the gameplay loop I'd been enjoying for hours in order to make progression possible.
 

Slay

Member
May 14, 2018
38
I already 100%'d the game once and started another playthrough just the other day. There is just something very comforting about it with how it is designed with the quick retries and all and never feels frustrating. Yes the levels get harder but they are not poorly designed they are just more focused and I really appreciate them. Also you're a platform lover no matter how far you get lol.
 

Lunatic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,835
To each their own! I had a smile on my face in the first 8 chapters then a smile with gritted teeth for the part where optional advanced movement tech in the base game is actually required to proceed.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,598
Seattle, WA
Vanilla Celeste is damn near perfect. A superbly challenging platformer with almost no fat on the main course. For folks satisfied with the storyline, you'll certainly get your money's worth. If you're into a bit more challenge, the B-sides are perfect. And I've been told there's even harder levels, though I'm not keen on finding out.

What soured me on the game a bit was the post-launch content demanding an awful lot more out of players so they could see the resolution of the story. I understand there's optional settings to make the game easier, but I really did want a challenge. I just didn't appreciate the challenge I got, and didn't feel like altering the gameplay loop I'd been enjoying for hours in order to make progression possible.

Celeste is like hiking. It has an easier path, a tough-but-doable path, and a crazy-hard path. The story is almost entirely along the "easier" path, and the game tells you from the very get-go that strawberries and other trinkets are optional. The same thing can be said about real-life hiking: You can take an easier, tough-but-doable, or crazy-hard path to reach arguably the same kinds of beautiful views. (And the final free chapter was always advertised as stupid-hard. I for one will never beat it, and I'm okay with that.)

I'm not sure a modern platformer has ever scaled as well to those extremes as Celeste, while making plainly clear to players that going for 100% is about the challenge, not about depriving less talented players of the story. And at any difficulty, it's also easy as hell to try, die, and retry.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,758
I wish wave dashing was like a switch you stepped on instead of the specific button combo. I wasn't able to do the move reliably even in the endgame. Still completed B and C sides and the DLC but would have made it easier for sure.
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,148
I just want to chime in and say WE HAVE TO NORMALIZE WATCHING STORYS ON YOUTUBE. It's okay to not beat the game. Don't shame me people. If a game is becoming too hard/boring I for sure will just Youtube the rest of the story and I'm not a lesser gamer for it.

I'm basically talking to myself here, it's hard to not feel like I'm cheating for doing it ):
 

Benzychenz

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,409
Australia
These are my totals:

DiMo7ZWU0AgFE-T


Never got bored and found the game so satisfying to master. Voted it #1 on our recent best platformer thread.
 

steviestar3

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jul 3, 2018
4,463
Speaking as someone that has finished everything in Celeste outside of the golden strawberries: not doing the A/B/C side format for Chapter 9 was a huge fuckup. It's an absolutely unreasonable difficulty spike for players that aren't already used to doing the B/C side stuff, which would be fine if they didn't lock new mechanics and story content behind it. They alienated a sizable portion of their audience there for no benefit.
 

EggmaniMN

Banned
May 17, 2020
3,465
They didn't alienate anyone with Chapter 9 because once I decided I'd had enough I just used the accessibility features to see the end. No fuss no muss.
 

rustyra24

Member
Jul 6, 2018
470
I did all the a/b/c sides and felt like I played the game enough. I started farewell and didn't feel like finishing it. If you can't finish 7C you won't be able to finish farewell.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
this game is literally SPIKE : The Game
the level design becomes atrocious and tedious to play.
every screen is filled with spike, lots of blind jumps,
things people hate in Mario Maker 2 such as wind and dark levels, yup we got it.
you are asked to perform very specific jumps constructively with little knowledge of what is ahead,
(binocular help a little, but there are a lot of sections without it)
you are asked to perform constructive air wavedashs with springs throw you around
you are asked to perform jumps/wavedashs with very tight timing and reaction time.
I don't think harder instantly equal good level design.
and I enjoyed some MM2 levels with 0.5% clear rate.

Aha, I'm glad someone else is calling Celeste to account for this so I don't have to bloviate on this subject as long-windedly as I usually do.

To be clear, I enjoyed the game a lot: I loved the elegance of the "lessons -> boss -> recapitulation" chapter structure and especially liked how the hunt for 100% of the A-side strawberries adhered to the same logic as Rayman Legends, where it's not enough to touch the collectible, but you also have to get out and land safely. There's a ton of cleverness here that is distributed in a way I found well paced and just as long as it needed to be.

But the way I like to describe Celeste is that it's the world's greatest, most refined example of a philosophy of difficulty design I disagree with completely. It's the game you get when that dreadful approach is on its best day.

Like the OP, I can regularly handle everything in SMM2 down to the 0.5% range (which is where levels wind up before they get into consecutive item-throwing tricks or really tight demands on pixel-perfect positioning). And I have to say, as someone who has been streaming viewer-submitted levels in SMM2 for a few months now, my least favourite genre by far is what the community calls a Precision level, which has, shall we say, a precise meaning in this context.

Here I'm not talking about any ordinary hard level, or even technically demanding levels with a lot of shell jumps, but the "dodge the weird hitbox" style of level that is all about restrictive intended paths through one-tile spaces that give you no freedom to adapt or improvise—levels with ugly one-tile spike blocks everywhere. (The #TeamPrecision style, if you know your way around SMM2.) You'll do as you're told, and you'll do it repeatedly until it works. The levels might be ten seconds long or only one screen wide, like the single-screen rooms all over Celeste, but they take significantly longer to clear than hard levels that actually give you interesting and varied interactions to master. The technique required of the player often isn't even that interesting: just regular old jumps in narrow spaces. The creators, if they are present, usually like to boast that it took them three or ten hours just to upload this monstrosity themselves. It's all just terribly boring, especially as a streaming experience, because from the perspective of level design there is literally nothing to talk about—no method to develop and practice, no cognitive puzzle to solve, no original level mechanic to reverse-engineer and understand. You just ram into the weird-looking corner pixel of a spike or sawblade, until you don't. Luckily, these are easy to skip or ignore in SMM2 and there is no shortage of significantly better content in the Super Expert range, if you know where to look.

Nothing in Celeste is that bad, but most of its approach to difficulty is symptomatic of the same problem. You die and retry until you've followed the intended path. And the problem with this is that the repetitions don't add much to the experience. When you clear a particularly punishing room, it's like you've done it by accident rather than by finesse, without necessarily feeling like you've earned it or that you can do it again consistently.

There's a certain kind of player that loves the sense of accomplishment involved in clearing something once and only once: the kind that wants a checkpoint on every screen and prefers games like Celeste because pulling off something very precise, then putting it away and never looking at it ever again, makes them feel like they've done something worthwhile. I am not that kind of player. By and large, I don't think the error margins in Celeste actually add much to the game design or encourage you to develop a better understanding of the mechanics. There comes a point where you already have all the understanding you need, and you're still crashing against the corner spikes anyway. I don't see that as a meaningful form of improvement, and I don't think of myself as having grown as a player when I come out on the other end of it.

(Mind you, many of the strawberry/crystal challenges do this very well—asking you to overcome a mental problem of grasping the mechanics or reading the spatial clues in the layout, and yielding easily once you do. But that's exactly why I often enjoyed that aspect of the game.)

Celeste is fine, but I've noticed a similar trends happening in the Mario Maker community too - conflating "hard/precise" with "good". Which isn't to say it's automatically bad, but difficulty does not a good level make, yet it seems like for at least a part of platforming, that's where things are trending. Stuff like needing to follow *exactly* the right steps and move *exactly* here at *exactly* this time winds up feeling less like a level a player is working their way through, but rather a really unclear QTE for players to stumble through until they unlock the correct move sequence.

I wonder if it's possible to make super challenging level design in a platformer without simply cranking up the "precision" knob, but until then, the current trend is a little annoying.

Well yes, there is a way: the kind of platforming challenge that gives you a ton of headroom to jump around, adapt, and create your own methods and solutions, and maybe even give you a safety net to take some hits—but asks you to do so over a long scale of consistency, like a long arcade-style level with no checkpoints.

The recent 3D Mario endgames since Galaxy 2 all do this wonderfully. DKCTF's no-checkpoint hard mode is sublime. Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair took this furthest of all, building the structure of an entire game around the goal of training the player to do a long-haul challenge—and naturally, the kind of people who prefer the checkpoint-per-screen format of games like Celeste hated it, whined and complained to no end, and called it a tedious case of "artificial difficulty" because they thought repeating anything was a waste of time. (I adored it, of course.)

It's the very opposite philosophy of platforming difficulty, and I strongly prefer it in every way. I prefer it for its flexibility and its room for player agency. I love how starting with a one-hit buffer in 3DW's Champion's Road or having the Bee Shield to ease your way into the Impossible Lair all give you enough of a cushion that throughout the learning process, you steadily improve at the level while asking yourself, "Am I ahead or behind?" And crucially, almost none of the examples I'm talking about are ever tightly tuned enough to force you down the narrow path of one designer-intended solution. Rather, they ask you, through repetition, to develop your own solution and refine a method that matches up with your instincts and the way you like to read the level. Every obstacle is only medium-hard but you really have to develop an understanding of what's going on, and discover your own favourite pattern, in order to chain them all together.

It was a revelation for me to run DKCTF to 200% again in 2018 for the first time since accomplishing the same in 2014, and discovering how much of the muscle memory just stuck, like returning to a challenging piece of music on an instrument you once studied seriously. There's some rust to shake off but it comes back so quickly, because mastering long levels like that is about mastering principles. It's the other kind of damage-driven, spike-based, precision-oriented difficulty, always out to kill the player, that I find most "artificial".

Once again, Celeste does pull this off quite well from time to time, but that's clearly not where its instincts lie, and I think most of what is brilliant about the difficulty design in game works despite the spikes and tight corners, not because of them. I'd like to go for the golden strawberries sometime (as they're a big no-checkpoint consistency check of the type I'm talking about), but the tuning of the screens themselves really doesn't look like a good match for that sort of challenge at all. Fewer spikes, wider corners, but also sparser checkpoints would have perfected many of Celeste's ideas for me. But that's obviously not the audience it was going for—and I found it telling that, in my view at least, so many of Matt Thorson's SMM2 creations fell flat as they were such a mismatch for the Mario format.
 
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