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CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
Great OP. I never planned on getting the game. I hope people who are will take a step back and consider why and how media does have the power to hurt minorities.
I keep waiting for them to stop doing this shit, to apologize, and do better and it just never happens.
It's so sad to see a dev with this much prestige and such a large platform just lean into this shit when the changes being asked for isn't hard to do, at all.
- Don't use the adverts in question
- Don't tie pronouns to voice pitch in the game
- Do the bare minimum of introspection and realize the platform they hold and the impact of their words has upon the world
It's so sad to see a dev with this much prestige and such a large platform just lean into this shit when the changes being asked for isn't hard to do, at all.
- Don't use the adverts in question
- Don't tie pronouns to voice pitch in the game
- Do the bare minimum of introspection and realize the platform they hold and the impact of their words has upon the world
Great OP, Kyuuji. Thank you for doing what you do. I would love it if Era could get to a point as a community where we don't need to constantly explain to the entire forum why trans rights and representation are important - this shit should be a given - but you're doing good work regardless. I just wish you didn't have to.
Beyond that, I also wish Era would stop giving a platform to all the individual marketing videos and articles CDPR and the press put out supporting this game. Like I understand news is news, but not every single insubstantial "look at this thing!!!!!!!!!!!" hype video needs its own dedicated fluff thread. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting three or four distinct Cyberpunk threads that don't actually have anything to say beyond folks spewing out variations of "DAY ONE" and "I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CONTROVERSY, THIS SHIT IS COOL".
We need to be better.
Beyond that, I also wish Era would stop giving a platform to all the individual marketing videos and articles CDPR and the press put out supporting this game. Like I understand news is news, but not every single insubstantial "look at this thing!!!!!!!!!!!" hype video needs its own dedicated fluff thread. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting three or four distinct Cyberpunk threads that don't actually have anything to say beyond folks spewing out variations of "DAY ONE" and "I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CONTROVERSY, THIS SHIT IS COOL".
We need to be better.
Thanks for compiling this information, OP. CDPR is awful.
Unfortunately, his views don't represent the view of the company as a whole.
Unfortunately, his views don't represent the view of the company as a whole.
Excellent OP Kyuuji, thank you. It's such a deep running issue, that it's impossible to chalk this up to just them making a silly mistake or being "only ignorant". Nah, it's deliberate. Mike Pondsmith handwaving the transphobia in an Eurogamer interview I think also sadly didn't help. Wish people like Holly who fucking works at CDPR would speak out about all of this. Or even just Alanah as she's bi afaik. It's just sad to see how silent supposed allies & people part of our community are when it's a game they can't just simply ignore.
Obviously can't speak for all lesbians & gay men living in Germany, but in my friend group all gay men use "schwul" for themselves & all lesbians use "lesbisch". Homosexuell is just.. zu klinisch? But none of us work in LGBT departments at universities & we're just young LGBT folks, so yeah, might just be different depending on who you ask. "Schwul" gets used in a derogatory way just like gay in English, but just like with gay it doesn't stop most people from still calling themselves schwul. We do have a different word that's the equivalent to the f-slur, but I obviously don't feel comfortable typing it out. For me, as a lesbian, it's a bit different as the worst thing I can think of is "Dorflesbe" which honestly makes me laugh more than anything else, because it's so fucking stupid. "Lesbe" in general wird auch oft benutzt, but it's still nowhere close to being anything like dyke in English. It's mostly the same way it is with gay/schwul for me & the other lesbians I know. Personally, I'm much more uncomfortable with others calling me homosexuell instead of just simply lesbisch? Because a lot of lesbophobes are just scared of taking the word lesbisch/lesbian in their mouths, but that's a whole different issue with them thinking we're exclusionary & gatekeeping for not being attracted to men (????). Just wanted to add a different viewpoint, hope you don't mind. :0 Also sorry for the Denglish lmao
Obviously can't speak for all lesbians & gay men living in Germany, but in my friend group all gay men use "schwul" for themselves & all lesbians use "lesbisch". Homosexuell is just.. zu klinisch? But none of us work in LGBT departments at universities & we're just young LGBT folks, so yeah, might just be different depending on who you ask. "Schwul" gets used in a derogatory way just like gay in English, but just like with gay it doesn't stop most people from still calling themselves schwul. We do have a different word that's the equivalent to the f-slur, but I obviously don't feel comfortable typing it out. For me, as a lesbian, it's a bit different as the worst thing I can think of is "Dorflesbe" which honestly makes me laugh more than anything else, because it's so fucking stupid. "Lesbe" in general wird auch oft benutzt, but it's still nowhere close to being anything like dyke in English. It's mostly the same way it is with gay/schwul for me & the other lesbians I know. Personally, I'm much more uncomfortable with others calling me homosexuell instead of just simply lesbisch? Because a lot of lesbophobes are just scared of taking the word lesbisch/lesbian in their mouths, but that's a whole different issue with them thinking we're exclusionary & gatekeeping for not being attracted to men (????). Just wanted to add a different viewpoint, hope you don't mind. :0 Also sorry for the Denglish lmao
Like I said in the thread about the cosplay, at this point it's obvious they don't care.
I still don't think they're doing all this shit out of intentional maliciousness, but I'm sure at least part of it is trying to generate controversy. All publicity is good publicity, etc.
I still don't think they're doing all this shit out of intentional maliciousness, but I'm sure at least part of it is trying to generate controversy. All publicity is good publicity, etc.
Very thoughtful. You are making a comment in a thread dedicated to condemnd transhopia and at the same time you are being xenophobic - this is an awful generalization you have made.
OP, as a transwoman myself, I'm happy that you took the time to do this. Your efforts don't go unnoticed and I hope it changes some folks' minds.
that second hand copy will still have all the transphobic stuff in it you know
What's been weird is seeing the debate between CDPR/CP77 and Rowling/Potter game.
It seems like people are more willing to dunk on Rowling and Potter because "LOL kiddie wizard aren't cool anyway" yet there's not as much controversy with CDPR/CP77 because "ZOMGOSH FLOPS GRAPHICS PRETTY! I DON'T CARE!"
It seems like people are more willing to dunk on Rowling and Potter because "LOL kiddie wizard aren't cool anyway" yet there's not as much controversy with CDPR/CP77 because "ZOMGOSH FLOPS GRAPHICS PRETTY! I DON'T CARE!"
It's only a drop in the bucket but I was excited to play Cyberpunk but canceled my pre-order a while back. I don't actively participate in these threads not because I don't care but because what I have to say would barely be above a driveby post most of the time. I do have a desire to learn and be better so I make an effort to read all of the threads that show up about these issues even if I don't have anything insightful to say. There are so many great games coming out that can be played without needing to come up with poor excuses on why playing them is okay without feeling guilty.
Yeah thanks! I think you could somewhat(!) compare gays saying "schwul" to themselves as black people saying the n-word to themselves. Just to make it their word and take it away from all these assholes. And at university you have to be inclusive and work towards that. And since most are cis and all are upcoming scientists anyway, the departments use "homosexuell" and suggest to use this term since it is the term you use in social sciences, gender studies, sexology etc pp. and shouldn't be offensive.
But, as a disclaimer, I don't have a lot of contact to those doing work in this regard, since my campus is in a different city and I'm just an mechanical engineer. So I might not be 100% correct here
Is there any fucking chance any of this is handled elegantly in the final game? I have never played a CDPR game are they revered for their writing? Is the game transphobic or transignorant? If you are going to make a game that includes subject matter related to oppressed groups then you need members of those groups on the team or brought on for guidance. I have no idea what the situation is at CDPR but I feel that too many times creators are serving as ambassadors to groups they don't belong in, and it has to stop.
I think at this point framing the social media posts they've made as mistakes/unnecessary is just looking at it the wrong way. After this many objectionable instances, it's hard to look at it as anything but an extension of what they are as a company. They didn't make some unfortunately transphobic twitter posts. They just seem to be an unfortunately transphobic company.
It's transphobic imagery even if the character isn't meant to be a woman. If it's meant to be a man in drag, the entire "joke" here is still just seeing testicles on a femme-coded person. Their genitals are also cartoonishly exaggerated to make the character seem abnormal.
thank you. ive never understood the "second hand copy" form of boycotting. usually just means you were never planning to get it new in the first place
For some users, yeah, that's pretty much it.
There's more chance of Trump becoming a trans ally.
Aint this the true. Being misgendered is rather traumatic, from my experience. While most people are kind about it where I live, the fact remains that I'm terrified when people bring it up. And then every so often you'll get that person who will maliciously use it against you, rather than just being ignorant.
Thank you for making this thread, Kyuuji. It's a valuable source of information, and a great place to direct those who don't understand why this is such a big deal for trans folks.
Holy fucking shit... like, I was willing to give a slight benefit of the doubt for the cosplay thing when I saw that thread yesterday (though I was still very disgusted to be fair) but then I saw the whole story with the drink and the name and just... holy fucking shit..
OP, thank you for bringing this to mine and everyone else's attention with this mega-thread. I can't believe that I've actually been defending them before
OP, thank you for bringing this to mine and everyone else's attention with this mega-thread. I can't believe that I've actually been defending them before
"If you feel slightly bad about buying the game as a result of the issues being highlighted then, honestly, good."
Well put, OP, and really well done thread. If you take these things individually, maybe an insensitive artist was hired or a bad social media intern, or something, but then you stitch them altogether as a pattern that keeps repeating itself, over and over, it's clear the company is trans hostile and against human rights.
I'm not really into the CDPR games. Played a bit of Witcher 2 and 3, and it didn't really click with me. But their hurtful positions or at least ... unwillingness to consider how their behavior & positions can hurt people ... over the years, which I wouldn't have even known about it I wasn't active in this community, make me very unlikely to play any of their games. They just have a clear pattern of harm.
Well put, OP, and really well done thread. If you take these things individually, maybe an insensitive artist was hired or a bad social media intern, or something, but then you stitch them altogether as a pattern that keeps repeating itself, over and over, it's clear the company is trans hostile and against human rights.
I'm not really into the CDPR games. Played a bit of Witcher 2 and 3, and it didn't really click with me. But their hurtful positions or at least ... unwillingness to consider how their behavior & positions can hurt people ... over the years, which I wouldn't have even known about it I wasn't active in this community, make me very unlikely to play any of their games. They just have a clear pattern of harm.
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CPDR - where there's smoke there's fire and holy shit is there a lot of smoke.
What's amazing about this is that they've chosen to be actively harmful to court controversy. It's bullshit.
What's amazing about this is that they've chosen to be actively harmful to court controversy. It's bullshit.
Ngl, I really don't think the comparison to the n-word works at all when it's much more the same way gay gets used as an insult. "Schwuchtel" is what I'd personally call the equivalent of the f-slur, you know? But I do get where you're coming from! Definitely is different if you're in an academic setting & I understand people just using "homosexuell" there! It's just, personally, not something I & other LGBT friends of mine are comfortable being called/using for ourselves as it just always feels a teensy bit.. othering depending on how it's said? But we might just be too used to talked umgangssprachlich lmao & we're all in our early to mid 20s, so I'm sure people older than us would have different opinions on it too. But hey, all is well as long as it's not derogatory! And I'm glad your campus is as inclusive as it is, hope I find something similar if I do end up choosing to go to uni at a later date. ;w;
The Witcher is genuinely compelling (especially 3) but it always had problems with minorities. There's only one explictly gay character, and I believe it took until one of the expansions to get a black character.
You could also chalk a lot of the positives down to the framework for The Witcher being strong and relatively progressive in its own right (I'd recommend watching Curio's vids on the franchise including the games for a trans perspective). Cyberpunk doesn't seem to have quite as strong a foundation, considering it's based on a tabletop RPG and not novels, and it's decidedly thornier in general to tackle a more grounded world compared to a fantasy one.
Fantastic OP, thank you for so eloquently detailing all of that grim evidence.
The entire post should really be picked up by mainstream gaming sites and given the attention it truly deserves, but they'd never bite the hand that feeds them of course.
Perhaps some enterprising modder could do what CDPR likely won't and release a PC mod that removes all of the transphobic imagery (and likely other visual and verbal references), and uncouples voice selection from character pronouns.
The entire post should really be picked up by mainstream gaming sites and given the attention it truly deserves, but they'd never bite the hand that feeds them of course.
Perhaps some enterprising modder could do what CDPR likely won't and release a PC mod that removes all of the transphobic imagery (and likely other visual and verbal references), and uncouples voice selection from character pronouns.
The Witcher series is also known for their terrible treatment of women and no black characters at all until the third's game first paid expansion.
But TW1 had women as collectible cards when you had sex with them. TW2 had a digital Playboy magazine as an extra content featuring the main romantic interest fully naked. And TW3 had sex scenes that were pure male fantasies, such as all sorts of magical scenarios.
Poland is overwhelmingly white. I don't think we can impose a moral imperative to ask a company of an overwhelmingly white nation to represent a foreign country's racial demographic in their games?
LGBT representation is completely wrong, I agree.
Bless you OP for breaking it down for those out of the loop.
CDPR ain't getting a dime from me anymore.
Yup.
And not just the debate here but the media takes on both are quite jarring.
CDPR ain't getting a dime from me anymore.
Yup.
And not just the debate here but the media takes on both are quite jarring.
I had seen all of these pop up one-by-one over the past couple years, but when you see them all complied like in the OP, it really hits you how unavoidable the conclusion is.
Beyond this just reflecting the true beliefs of the developers or studio leadership, I'm sure they also have made the cynical calculation that the benefit they gain in the right wing community from these dog whistles outweighs potential harm in the trans and ally communities.
Beyond this just reflecting the true beliefs of the developers or studio leadership, I'm sure they also have made the cynical calculation that the benefit they gain in the right wing community from these dog whistles outweighs potential harm in the trans and ally communities.
If a game company is dominantly white, they can hire diversity consultants or sensitivity readers to help better represent marginalized people in their stories. Tanya DePass is one such person, for example.
The thing that jumped out to me about "Chromanticore" is that one of the more common depictions of a manticore includes a scorpion stinger on the tail. So I thought it was trying to make a penis/stinger comparison.
It's just a multi-layered bit of transphobic bullshit, you just uncover more the longer you think about it.
They're making a game set in 2077 California. Frankly, there should be next to no white people in the game.
I want to say thankyou so much for writing this and I really appreciate the thought and the way you summarized the whole thing. It makes me feel happy considering I'm not the best at making threads and I usually get frustrated with the responses alot. I think this should definitely be the definitive mega thread for cyberpunk discussion from here on out as the ot for issues with the game. You've definitely have said it better than I ever could.
I think it's reasonable expectation, especially when they clearly are very capable of it. 77 features a lot different ethnicities, minorities, body types etc.
Can they do all of that without using just stereotypes? We will know for sure soon, but people can assume...
In this day and age it'd be extremely narrowminded of them to base their universe solely on their own experiences. Like, I grew up in an overwhelmingly white city but I knew black people existed. When you're writing a fantasy story you don't even have to put much thought into it if you don't want to - just make a character a different race and that's it.
Also it's not like The Witcher is set in a real world analogue, if anything its backstory would inherently have to suggest its world is very diverse, or at least more so than it is in the games. Humanity was plucked from the real-world Earth at some unspecified point in our future after it was destroyed. Doesn't make much sense for it to be so overwhelmingly white, and the Witcher Netflix series is very diverse in comparison and it isn't even all that noticeable.
You can actually see what California thinks about this:
Projections
www.dof.ca.gov
Hispanic and Asian continue to grow but a large % are still white.
Poland doesn't have the colonization history that most European countries have, and most Polish people the age of Andrzej Sapkowski seldom met any people of color until the end of the 90s. But The Witcher universe contains plenty of allegories to the Jewish or Roms treatment, which are much closer issues to their culture than the slave trade and its current-day ramifications.
To go back to CDPRed, their management is to blame for a lot more than transphobic comments but I will definitely buy the game because plenty of my friends, some LGBT or from cultural minorities worked hard on Cyberpunk and they deserve all credit for it. I feel like I would be punishing the devs by boycotting the company.
Absolute nonsense.
This whole "I want to support the devs" excuse has been debunked to hell and back
Oh for crying out loud please stop with this excuse. The devs already got paid, you're giving your money to the higher ups.
I'm so done here.
Bonuses are a real thing, and believe it or not but first the higher ups get paid THEN the devs get their bonuses. Devs at CDPR are notoriously under-paid, and most of them stay post-release just because of bonuses that offset their shitty salaries.
This game is guaranteed to sell enough to cover up its costs and its higher ups bonuses, but any additional sale will contribute to a fair payment to the devs.
I don't even know if I want to buy the game anymore. I was never as hyped for it as others were and this is especially a turn-off.
It's unfortunate that the transphobia of the higher ups was able to overshadow the Harry Potter game but not with this game. There'll still be hype threads coming everyday leading up to, and probably even after the game releases. Realistically, I'm not expecting a ban on the topic of the game but the least we can do is keep this thread alive for as long as we can. For what it's worth, I do think the mods are doing a pretty decent job at handling the situation.
It's unfortunate that the transphobia of the higher ups was able to overshadow the Harry Potter game but not with this game. There'll still be hype threads coming everyday leading up to, and probably even after the game releases. Realistically, I'm not expecting a ban on the topic of the game but the least we can do is keep this thread alive for as long as we can. For what it's worth, I do think the mods are doing a pretty decent job at handling the situation.