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Fishsnot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,967
Japan
To expect backers to be consulted on a potential publishing deal (most of whom know nothing about game dev/pub or even care at all) is unrealistic, and not how these deals are done. It's clear that accepting a publisher's money (and, by extension, losing some control) was necessary to deliver a version of Shenmue III that people wanted and deserved from the campaign. If they hadn't, the game would've been a half-baked mess, and the current backlash would be nothing compared to the disappointment backers would've felt.

At the time YS Net had no reason to believe Deep Silver would do anything to upset backers. As they mentioned when the deal was made, Deep Silver had a solid record of selling Japanese games around the world, and their relationship with SEGA was probably good enough for Yu Suzuki at the time. That, and they didn't exactly have the luxury of being picky. Hindsight is 20/20.

This is clearly Deep Silver's doing, at the expense of YS Net's trust. I refuse to take a hard line on this just because YS Net's name is on the Kickstarter. It's possible for outside forces to come in and mess things up, and that's what has happened here. I'm not saying that makes things any better or easier to swallow.
You would think there must be some sort of clause in the contract on Y's Nets behalf that states that you can't have complete and utter control of the way this whole matter is being handled?
Deep Silver and Epic games are tarnishing Ys net and Yu Suzukis name here.
People's faith in Kickstarter is at an all time low now after this too.... this whole sordid affair is just having too many repercussions.
Surely if they have any concern about the well being of their backers at the very least they would have said something (anything), even if the matter is out of thier hands.
This radio silence reads that everybody has collectively shit the bed together.
Not exactly a good look for all involved! Especially if you are thinking of making new projects in the future. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice however....
I hope the collateral damage caused by Tim Sweneey's greed was worth fucking everyone over.

Someone out there say S-O-M-E-T-H-I-N-G!
Have some common decency and give us the backers and fans that at the very least.
 
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MrBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,671
My only hesitation with letting Ys Net off the hook is this post:


The post is giddy to be epic games store exclusive. Like this is supposed to be some fantastic, amazing news. It says post created by Ys Net so I don't know who else this is supposed to represent. Whoever wrote this had zero idea the backlash being EGS exclusive would bring. How else can someone so badly mis judge the crowd reaction so to speak.
 

Bowl0l

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,608
My only hesitation with letting Ys Net off the hook is this post:


The post is giddy to be epic games store exclusive. Like this is supposed to be some fantastic, amazing news. It says post created by Ys Net so I don't know who else this is supposed to represent. Whoever wrote this had zero idea the backlash being EGS exclusive would bring. How else can someone so badly mis judge the crowd reaction so to speak.
This KS update probably caused the huge upset. If they bluffed and said Ys Net is going bankrupt, all backers will be willing to receive nothing.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,906
I believe that Epic advised Ys Net and Deep Silver to just stay silent as long as possible and wait for things to calm down.
 

ParsnipForest

Member
Oct 27, 2017
571
Australia
You would think there must be some sort of clause in the contract on Y's Nets behalf that states that you can't have complete and utter control of the way this whole matter is being handled?
Deep Silver and Epic games are tarnishing Ys net and Yu Suzukis name here.
People's faith in Kickstarter is at an all time low now after this too.... this whole sordid affair is just having too many repercussions.
Surely if they have any concern about the well being of their backers at the very least they would have said something (anything), even if the matter is out of thier hands.
This radio silence by everyone involved reads that everybody has collectively shit the bed together.
Not exactly a good look for all involved! Especially if you are thinking of making new projects in the future. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice however....
I hope the collateral damage caused by Tim Sweneey's greed was worth fucking everyone over.

Someone out there say S-O-M-E-T-H-I-N-G!
Have some common decency and give us the backers and fans that at the very least.
These things can take time to turn around. We know they're working on it, and it really hasn't been that long. All we can do is wait for their solution to judge whether or not it's satisfactory. Who knows, if they do the right thing soon they could absolve themselves from this mess only a few weeks after it began, and people can get back to focussing on the game itself. That'd be nice.
 

YuSuzzune

Member
Nov 21, 2018
4,931
I believe that Epic advised Ys Net and Deep Silver to just stay silent as long as possible and wait for things to calm down.
It doesn't really work when you say you will update your users "soon".
Even if Epic told so, the effect is just having even more angry people, just give a look to the comments in the latest Kickstarter updates. Those are all people who backed the game and they are fucking angry, even people who opted for a PS4 code.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,906
It doesn't really work when you say you will update your users "soon".
Even if Epic told so, the effect is just having even more angry people, just give a look to the comments in the latest Kickstarter updates. Those are all people who backed the game and they are fucking angry, even people who opted for a PS4 code.

And yet there is still way less buzz than it was week ago. It is sad but it works.
 

Bomi-Chan

Member
Nov 8, 2017
665
Is this information you have regarding the development of Shenmue 3 or do you mean this is how things have gone in the past for Deep Silver's other Japanese projects? Always looking for insider info. :)
i dont have Insider Infos, it is just that i read on the other Forum, that Deep silver and the shenmue3 Thing have gone beyond shit and Deep silver deeply regrets getting into this. if it wasnt for the Epic Money, they would have lost a bunch of Money.
 

f2bnp

Member
Mar 16, 2019
19
On the one hand, I can totally understand getting pissed off with this announcement, since it is indeed a retraction on something people backed on. On the other hand, in my eyes, Epic Store is the same shit as Steam or any other client based store. I know I'm in the minority, but I've decided to at least attempt to exclusively buy games on GOG, Humble store or itch.io, not a great fan of paying for the privilege of downloading games locked to specific clients and DRMs.
 
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
giphy.gif


The longer they stay quiet the worse it looks on Ys Net. It's not exactly a complicated issue, in regards to them needing to "understand" what people are mad about.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,365
giphy.gif


The longer they stay quiet the worse it looks on Ys Net. It's not exactly a complicated issue, in regards to them needing to "understand" what people are mad about.
It doesn't help since the public impression is that they closed the deal really fast but now it suddenly takes really long for them to actually answer their backers.
 

Vinnk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,969
Japan
On the one hand, I can totally understand getting pissed off with this announcement, since it is indeed a retraction on something people backed on. On the other hand, in my eyes, Epic Store is the same shit as Steam or any other client based store. I know I'm in the minority, but I've decided to at least attempt to exclusively buy games on GOG, Humble store or itch.io, not a great fan of paying for the privilege of downloading games locked to specific clients and DRMs.

But that's another thing. The PC physical release was initially supposed to be all on disc. Now it seems it is just a EGS code. At least if I understand Bob Ross's comment.
 

f2bnp

Member
Mar 16, 2019
19
Yeah, I don't know if that was ever on the table, if true, then this is a shit move.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,167
To expect backers to be consulted on a potential publishing deal (most of whom know nothing about game dev/pub or even care at all) is unrealistic, and not how these deals are done. It's clear that accepting a publisher's money (and, by extension, losing some control) was necessary to deliver a version of Shenmue III that people wanted and deserved from the campaign. If they hadn't, the game would've been a half-baked mess, and the current backlash would be nothing compared to the disappointment backers would've felt.

At the time YS Net had no reason to believe Deep Silver would do anything to upset backers. As they mentioned when the deal was made, Deep Silver had a solid record of selling Japanese games around the world, and their relationship with SEGA was probably good enough for Yu Suzuki at the time. That, and they didn't exactly have the luxury of being picky. Hindsight is 20/20.

This is clearly Deep Silver's doing, at the expense of YS Net's trust. I refuse to take a hard line on this just because YS Net's name is on the Kickstarter. It's possible for outside forces to come in and mess things up, and that's what has happened here. I'm not saying that makes things any better or easier to swallow.
I think that if they want to entirely disregard their backers, they should either be willing to take the massive reputational damage, or offer refunds.

I don't understand why you're saying backers know nothing about publishing. As far as I can see, the vast majority of backers are entirely aware that Steam keys would have been preferred to Epic Store exclusivity. Something that it seems Ys Net had no idea about.
 

ParsnipForest

Member
Oct 27, 2017
571
Australia
I think that if they want to entirely disregard their backers, they should either be willing to take the massive reputational damage, or offer refunds.

I don't understand why you're saying backers know nothing about publishing. As far as I can see, the vast majority of backers are entirely aware that Steam keys would have been preferred to Epic Store exclusivity. Something that it seems Ys Net had no idea about.
I agree, I think they should offer refunds to those who want them, but the reality is YS Net as a company probably don't have the cash on hand to give out mass refunds, even if it's only a tiny percentage of backers who want them, so it'd have to be a decision backed by Deep Silver/Epic. But seems as though they're the ones who created this mess, it's only fair they front the bill in my opinion.

Backers having an opinion on storefronts and what is best for them does not mean they understand the business of games. Crowd-sourcing opinions on publisher deals is deeply impractical and makes no sense.
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,565
On the one hand, I can totally understand getting pissed off with this announcement, since it is indeed a retraction on something people backed on. On the other hand, in my eyes, Epic Store is the same shit as Steam or any other client based store. I know I'm in the minority, but I've decided to at least attempt to exclusively buy games on GOG, Humble store or itch.io, not a great fan of paying for the privilege of downloading games locked to specific clients and DRMs.
You aren't with Steam tho, that's up to the devs. Don't know about Win but on Linux I can download non-DRM Steam games without even the client itself.
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,788
Birmingham, UK
i dont have Insider Infos, it is just that i read on the other Forum, that Deep silver and the shenmue3 Thing have gone beyond shit and Deep silver deeply regrets getting into this. if it wasnt for the Epic Money, they would have lost a bunch of Money.

I haven't read the thread over there but I think this is just supposition based on the sales of the Shenmue remasters on Steam not setting the world on fire. I doubt their investments were in particular danger, but I guess that screwing over backers is of little concern compared to completely eliminating risk in what is likely a one shot deal.

But that's another thing. The PC physical release was initially supposed to be all on disc. Now it seems it is just a EGS code. At least if I understand Bob Ross's comment.

My understanding is that Deep Silver's Twitter comments implied this although I don't think it's been 100% confirmed. The lack of contrary comments by any of the parties does strongly suggest that's the case though.

I'm not in the tier this applies to, but another potential worry is the trial version promised for the $100+ tiers. Has there been any mention in the last couple of years of when that's likely to release?
 

Swenhir

Member
Oct 28, 2017
521
Backers having an opinion on storefronts and what is best for them does not mean they understand the business of games

You've got to stop supporting this patronizing attitude. We understand the business of games alright. Epic's aims at a monopoly and Deep Silver is a very selfish actor that views the PC platform's health and its customers as an "externality" to its business.

Picking up crowdfunded, then-publisher-funded projects and applying exclusivity deals on them without refunds is wrong and everyone knows it. Just stop with the "you don't understand business".
 

morningbus

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,058

YuSuzzune

Member
Nov 21, 2018
4,931
Now let's see Ys stating they need to wait for Suzuki ro come back before releasing a statement.
 
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elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,570
Backers having an opinion on storefronts and what is best for them does not mean they understand the business of games. Crowd-sourcing opinions on publisher deals is deeply impractical and makes no sense.
It's not that they don't understand the business of games, it's that they shouldn't have to care, except if it lead to totaly unrealistic expectation ( not set by the the people leading the project ).

If they wanted business partners who only care about earnings, they should have pitched as such, say on fig and get actual investors. They didn't, from that point onward they had to take backer into account for their subsequent business decision, regardless of kickstarter loose rules allowing them to stay in the legality ( which people sadly like to equal with morality if it can protect a corporation ) pretty much regardless of what they do.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,151
The 'statement' was released as a joint statement from Deep Silver, Ys Net and Epic. You think Ys Net can break whatever confidentiality or contract was signed and issue a statement? Unfortunately, I think their hands are completely tied.
 

morningbus

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,058
Or... what, exactly?

They can literally remain silent until the game releases and nothing will happen.

It's not like you can get a refund. And anyone who thinks they'll succeed with a chargeback doesn't know how banks work.
Granted, I agree. I don't think they're going to do anything satisfactory.

But I mean more in a sense of calming people down with a statement. Waiting 2 more weeks is going to keep people angry and it'll follow the game from now until well after it's released.
 

YuSuzzune

Member
Nov 21, 2018
4,931
that's where these always end up

'um it's called business have you ever heard of it'
I don't really understand how people can defend such practices. To me this whole situation feels like a giant scam, and it's the only Kickstarter I took part because I thought, since Suzuki was involved, would be a 100% hit. Instead I'm now regretting to put 30$ on this.
 

Deleted member 4609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
767
I don't really understand how people can defend such practices. To me this whole situation feels like a giant scam, and it's the only Kickstarter I took part because I thought, since Suzuki was involved, would be a 100% hit. Instead I'm now regretting to put 30$ on this.

Because it doesn't affect me, and therefore I don't care about it, so why do YOU care, do you think you're better than me? WELL YOU'RE NOT YOU PIECE OF SHIT IT'S JUST ANOTHER LAU
 

ParsnipForest

Member
Oct 27, 2017
571
Australia
You've got to stop supporting this patronizing attitude. We understand the business of games alright. Epic's aims at a monopoly and Deep Silver is a very selfish actor that views the PC platform's health and its customers as an "externality" to its business.

Picking up crowdfunded, then-publisher-funded projects and applying exclusivity deals on them without refunds is wrong and everyone knows it. Just stop with the "you don't understand business".
If you read my post properly you'd see I agree with you -- they should offer refunds -- and the part you quoted was in reference to giving backers a say in YS Net's original publishing deal with Deep Silver, which makes no sense to me, and isn't how things are done. Have you seen any other Kickstarters asking their backers if they're OK with the publishing deal they're about to sign? These deals are private business negotiations, often wrapped in NDAs and whatnot, and backers do not know the inner workings of the project: studio expenses, team size, budget, schedule etc. etc.

That's what I mean by "backers don't understand the business", so stop acting like my posts are deeply offensive and I must fall in line. It's weird.

that's where these always end up

'um it's called business have you ever heard of it'
Is this aimed at me? It's amazing how a few posts about how it should be Deep Silver and Epic who take responsibility for the situation, and absolutely nothing about dismissing backer concerns, can lead to dismissive posts like this, all because I said that expecting backers to be consulted on publishing deals is unrealistic, because they don't have the behind-the-scenes knowledge. Some people just see that 'S' word and go into high alert.
 
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YuSuzzune

Member
Nov 21, 2018
4,931
I presume we won't get an update today. And if it's not out tomorrow, I doubt it will in the weekend so another week has passed.
 

YuSuzzune

Member
Nov 21, 2018
4,931
I just want to know what I should do, because I'm afraid to switch to a PS4 copy and than they will say something about "The people who opted in for a Steam key will receive one one year later in addition to the Epic one on D1" and they revoke the option to switch the key, or they will lock out the possibility to get a PS4 key, so people who chose the Steam one need to stick with an Epic store key.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,273
Is this seriously just going to blow over?
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,497
This is more worrying



People will now expect stores to fund development.

People who makes games really don't care about anything except themselves, do they? Now people need to pay them to do the job that they willingly got into. Its not like anyone put a gun to their head and forced them to make games.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,743
This is more worrying



People will now expect stores to fund development.

That is such a short sighted argument

Epic doesn't plan to fund game devs out of pocket forever. They're only doing it because that's the only way to get anyone to use their store. It also fails to consider the long term cost to pissing off and betraying your fan base just for short term funding

Also if your game needs someone literally paying for exclusivity just to survive in a storefront war...maybe that game shouldn't be made in the first place. Harsh maybe, but isn't that how business and development normally work?
 

tuxfool

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,858
I think it's incredibly naive of him to assume that the Epic money is being reinvested into the game this close to launch. If anything, they're spending a portion of that money to strip Steam features from the game.
I think that he is arguing that it will help IV.

However, if that is their thinking, they're effectively worrying about a future that won't come to pass if they don't make good now. Other than semantics, that is effectively just taking the moneyhat and running, with the excuse that there was not demand for future games.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,166
China
Does he really think YSnet is getting money from that and not Deep Silver?

The game comes out in 5 months, August before. The game is done and Deep Silver will choose after it sold well if they can continue or not, not because they get an Epic Moneyhat...
 

voOsh

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,665
Also if your game needs someone literally paying for exclusivity just to survive in a storefront war...maybe that game shouldn't be made in the first place. Harsh maybe, but isn't that how business and development normally work?

Yep. I hope Shenmue fans get a great game and more in the future. But if the game can't sell well enough on it's own merits to justify development costs perhaps that is just not a commercially viable game.
 

CesareNorrez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,543
People always talk about how niche Shenmue is, but what level are we talking? Because we can look at crowdfunded games and use steamspy to figure out sales. Is Shenmue more or less niche than Pillars of Eternity? How about Wasteland 2? Shenmue had more backers than either of those games and steamspy indicates sales of over a million. Yes I understand price discounts factor into it, but if you are looking for investment you going to show off sales numbers.

I'm sure Ys Net is not a financially stable company. And Shenmue 4 is going to require some serious investment, but I do think sales for Shenmue 3 will surprise people that talk about how niche Shenmue is.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,151
The Kickstarter certainly didn't make it look niche. I haven't checked in a while, but it's been the highest-funded video game Kickstarter for a few years. I think people's expectations for what a game is is a lot more open minded and different than what it was 18 or 19 years ago. I can see Shenmue picking up a new audience provided the game isn't a total mess. Hell, if it ends up being bad, but "funny bad," it might still find an audience.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,166
China
The Kickstarter certainly didn't make it look niche. I haven't checked in a while, but it's been the highest-funded video game Kickstarter for a few years. I think people's expectations for what a game is is a lot more open minded and different than what it was 18 or 19 years ago. I can see Shenmue picking up a new audience provided the game isn't a total mess. Hell, if it ends up being bad, but "funny bad," it might still find an audience.

The delay puts the game into the month when those games are released:

Death Stranding
Pokemon Sword and Shield
Doom Eternal
Star Wars
Planet Zoo

And we will still have more announcements for November at Gamescom.
 
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