NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
I'm happy to support creators through stuff like Patreon no problem. I just refuse to support youtube, they are a horrible company that is looking to make the experience as miserable as they can for the average user.

LMAO at the idea of youtube caring about content creators.
 

LinkSlayer64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 6, 2018
2,556
Those features are absolutely minor for YouTube. The usage statistics on those would be extemely low, considering:
1) Music playback is considerably rarer than video playback and 2) PIP isn't even a public feature yet. Don't assume your use case means every single person uses YouTube the same. If you find those features so useful, then please pay for Premium so the content creators you watch will actually get paid more, instead of being ripped off by you.

Yeah, that sucks for that person, but I assume it was solved...? What is this trying to prove? Pointing out a time the copyright system was abused is not evidence of an overarching lack of care for content creators. YouTube has an incredible amount of resources available to make content and money on the platform. I'd also like to point out that YouTube's revenue sharing was groundbreaking for the internet and creator ecosystem - something even TikTok hasn't done at all.

Get back to me when you have any sort of argument for being owed free hosted video content for the rest of your life :)

No, it wasn't solved, and this crap happens all the time on youtube with zero repercussions for false copyright flags. Actual fixes for video creator's issues are not being put out, instead bullshit like hiding dislikes is under the guise of helping creators.

Pip is a public feature? Like, even my mom has it on her android?
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,300
Not being able to adjust the volume and video brightness by swiping on the left or right side of the screen in a full screen video is going to be a nuisance in the regular Youtube app or in Firefox.

If it were just the ad removal that I wanted, running Firefox with uBlock just like I do on desktop and going to the Youtube website would suffice. But Vanced has a bunch of features that Google should've added ages ago.

I'm gonna run Vanced until the app dies. Hopefully someone does a spinoff to continue on.

And even moreso, hopefully they don't try to fucking shill an NFT, which likely is what got Vanced in trouble in the first place.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Toronto
PIP isn't even a public feature yet. Don't assume your use case means every single person uses YouTube the same.
The fact that this feature isn't even public when it's been perfected in Vanced for years is fucking pathetic. Of course a feature that isn't in the app officially isn't going to have an official userbase clamouring for it. PIP is literally one of the most used features on vanced, more so than background audio. There is nothing more useful than being able to set it up so that I can multitask watching something on my YouTube and still be able to go do stuff on my phone without having to miss anything important that may come up on the video.

The feature is also literally seamless in vanced. I press the home or app switcher keys and it immediately goes to PIP remembering my settings and last set position. I can resize it. If I focus on it, it increases in size and I can set the focus size of the window. If I swipe it away it seemlessly transitions to background audio. All of this with zero pausing, buffering or glitches.

The fact that YouTube can't get their shit together and introduce useful features for even their paid subscribers is pathetic.
 
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Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
That has nothing to do with the point in question, lol. Get back to ME when you understand that.

The idea that they care about their creators is laughable.
Please explain to me in detail how exactly YouTube "doesn't care" about creators on their platform. And don't say "because Google secretly wants money actually!", as this isn't a High School economics class.

YouTube's creator tools:
- Unlimited free uploads at any length up to 8K resolution
- Videos automatically encoded to lower resolutions
- Video privacy tools (Unlisted, Private, Public)
- Video scheduling
- Revenue share monetization system
- Unlimited video thumbnail uploads and changes
- Extremely detailed and indepth Analytics page, entirely free for all creators (unmatched by any other platform)
- Realtime view counts visible by any creator for any video at all times
- Watch time, AVD, CTR, CPM, RPM, detailed audience metrics breakdowns, and much more available for free for all videos for all creators
- Live streaming support up to 4K resolution, automatically encoded down to lower resolutions (this is only for Twitch partners)
- Fully featured live streaming dashboard
- Live chat that supports donations
- Copyright system available for all creators that alerts if someone has reuploaded your content
- Channel membership support with custom tiers
- Channel merchandise support
- Free audio library for all creators

But please, tell me how the YouTube team doesn't actually care about creators. I guess they just implemented features that nobody else has because they thought it'd be fun! It's so obvious you don't actually make content professionally or know anything about the platform we're talking about.

You're so morally correct
Thanks for proving their point. Still waiting to hear a great argument about how it's not piracy... something tells me we won't ever get one...
 

Sketchsanchez

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,702
Oh okay so because small creators bought into the Google cartel that means it's okay
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,760
Please explain to me in detail how exactly YouTube "doesn't care" about creators on their platform. And don't say "because Google secretly wants money actually!", as this isn't a High School economics class.

There is nothing secret about it. Stop drinking the koolaid.

YouTube's creator tools:
- Unlimited free uploads at any length up to 8K resolution
- Videos automatically encoded to lower resolutions
- Video privacy tools (Unlisted, Private, Public)
- Video scheduling
- Revenue share monetization system
- Unlimited video thumbnail uploads and changes
- Extremely detailed and indepth Analytics page, entirely free for all creators (unmatched by any other platform)
- Realtime view counts visible by any creator for any video at all times
- Watch time, AVD, CTR, CPM, RPM, detailed audience metrics breakdowns, and much more available for free for all videos for all creators
- Live streaming support up to 4K resolution, automatically encoded down to lower resolutions (this is only for Twitch partners)
- Fully featured live streaming dashboard
- Live chat that supports donations
- Copyright system available for all creators that alerts if someone has reuploaded your content
- Channel membership support with custom tiers
- Channel merchandise support
- Free audio library for all creators

But please, tell me how the YouTube team doesn't actually care about creators. I guess they just implemented features that nobody else has because they thought it'd be fun! It's so obvious you don't actually make content professionally or know anything about the platform we're talking about.
What are you babbling about? Those features are there because they enable creators to create content more easily for the platform, it doesn't mean they care about the creators themselves... lol.

They have proven, time and time again, that they only care about their bottom line and only care about creators enough to make sure they can enable creators to make them more money.
 

Crazyorloco

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,355
It's a free market so they can charge whatever they want. But YT Premium is massively overpriced. Ad-free Hulu is basically the same price and that comes with all of the content. Whereas YT Premium is literally just a shakedown

Honestly hard-pressed to think of a single year over the last 10 that native YouTube got better and not worse due to Google policies

Doesn't feel overpriced if you don't have a music service provider. I don't have Spotify and yt premium gives you YouTube music too. Feels like a bargain for me.

And even if I didn't use it for the music - I watch YouTube enough that paying for the removal of ads is worth it.


Not sure what people expected. Ads are literally part of the profitability behind streaming services. You take that away and large companies are obviously going to stop it.

Yup. Should be of no surprise.
 
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Sketchsanchez

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,702
There is nothing secret about it. Stop drinking the koolaid.


What are you babbling about? Those features are there because they enable creators to create content more easily for the platform, it doesn't mean they care about the creators themselves... lol.

they have proven, time and time again, that they only care about their bottom line and only care about creators enough to make sure they can enable creators to make them more money.
.
 

Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
There is nothing secret about it. Stop drinking the koolaid.


What are you babbling about? Those features are there because they enable creators to create content more easily for the platform, it doesn't mean they care about the creators themselves... lol.

they have proven, time and time again, that they only care about their bottom line and only care about creators enough to make sure they can enable creators to make them more money.
Right, so you don't actually have an argument at all! Nice! I'm glad I learnt that a company wants to make money though, never knew that before.

The YouTube team just made unparralled content creation tools because they don't actually care about the creators. Weird.
 

Sketchsanchez

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,702
Okay so Google sets the rules (and pay) and creators except the rules (and pay) (because they have no choice) and that means the rules (and pay) are fine.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,760
Right, so you don't actually have an argument at all! Nice! I'm glad I learnt that a company wants to make money though, never knew that before.
YOU don't have an argument at all.

If you don't understand how listing the site's technical features doesn't prove they care about their creators then there is no point discussing this with you.

I mean, the latter was clear from the start but whatever lol.
 

Resetta Stone

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,575
Nothing, Arizona
Hate to see it go, but I figured this would end up happening inevitably. Thankfully, I still have Vanced on my phone and I will run it until the wheels come off. The video running in the background is a godsend and a basic feature that shouldn't be relegated behind a premium paywall.
 

Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
YOU don't have an argument at all.

If you don't understand how listing the site's technical features doesn't prove they care about their creators then there is no point discussing this with you.

I mean, the latter was clear from the start but whatever lol.
I laid out exactly what YouTube has done to help creators on their platform. I showed you direct evidence. You're dismissing it because they "dont really care actually" and that I should "just google it". You have no evidence for what you're saying whatsoever, and you know nothing about the platform we're discussing. You have such little insight into how YouTube works yet continue to argue that you should be owed free content.
 

Sketchsanchez

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,702
I laid out exactly what YouTube has done to help creators on their platform. I showed you direct evidence. You're dismissing it because they "dont really care actually" and that I should "just google it". You have no evidence for what you're saying whatsoever, and you know nothing about the platform we're discussing. You have such little insight into how YouTube works yet continue to argue that you should be owed free content.
No you're just accepting what Google has done as if it's fine or even enough when the problem comes from exactly from how they choose to pay and support creators

Basically it aint the consumers fault.
 

Kurt Russell

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,587
Reminding me there are people who feel that skipping ads is a form of piracy.


If this doesn't get you a tag, there is no justice in the world.
Sorry in advance if I misunderstood your post, but what in my post is so outrageous? I've seen this stuff happen countless times already. I'm only asking that if people wish to do the region jumping, they keep it to themselves and don't brag openly about it, as it inevitably ends up triggering a price raise for us. It isn't a big ask...
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,760
I laid out exactly what YouTube has done to help creators on their platform. I showed you direct evidence. You're dismissing it because they "dont really care actually" and that I should "just google it". You have no evidence for what you're saying whatsoever, and you know nothing about the platform we're discussing. You have such little insight into how YouTube works yet continue to argue that you should be owed free content.
No, you laid out site functionality and features that are necessary for them to allow creators to efficiently create content for them.

They are not doing that because they care, lol.
 

yap

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,640
So uh

It's because they tried to monetize it via NFTs.



kfd4iu59vvs21.jpg

welp
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,312
Reno
I laid out exactly what YouTube has done to help creators on their platform. I showed you direct evidence. You're dismissing it because they "dont really care actually" and that I should "just google it". You have no evidence for what you're saying whatsoever, and you know nothing about the platform we're discussing. You have such little insight into how YouTube works yet continue to argue that you should be owed free content.

It's awesome that Google provides tools to help creators.

Just because they do that doesn't mean they also don't treat creators like shit.

See the recent issue with the removal of the dislike button. Pretty much every content creator was against it's removal and YouTube pretty much ignored their complaints.

Then there's the whole can of worms that is the copyright strike system and the mess that it is.

Google does some great things with YouTube, but they also do a lot of really bad things as well.

Because of course smh, while the rest of us argue about bs like whether using vanced is piracy.



Same shit different day 🙄

It's clear to anyone (if this NFC thing was the reason) that Google was letting Vanced hang around until it crossed that monetary line.

Anyone who doesn't think Google knew about Vanced all these years has their head buried in the sand.
 

Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
The fact that this feature isn't even public when it's been perfected in Vanced for years is fucking pathetic. Of course a feature that isn't in the app officially isn't going to have an official userbase clamouring for it. PIP is literally one of the most used features on vanced, more so than background audio. There is nothing more useful than being able to set it up so that I can multitask watching something on my YouTube and still be able to go do stuff on my phone without having to miss anything important that may come up on the video.

The feature is also literally seamless in vanced. I press the home or app switcher keys and it immediately goes to PIP remembering my settings and last set position. I can resize it. If I focus on it, it increases in size and I can set the focus size of the window. If I swipe it away it seemlessly transitions to background audio. All of this with zero pausing, buffering or glitches.

The fact that YouTube can't get their shit together and introduce useful features for even their paid subscribers is pathetic.
We can argue all day about Google's A/B testing system and slow rollout of features, I would mostly agree with you, but at the end of the day I think PiP and background audio are reasonable compromises for a company that is trying to make YouTube profitable. There may be a day where this line would be crossed, and the $10 a month would no longer be "worth it", but in my opinion we're a long way from that. If this were any other service people would be clamoring at the sheer amount of features and content available for free.

Also, I use YouTube PiP on iOS all the time and it works as flawlessly as you described. Not sure what you mean there

No you're just accepting what Google has done as if it's fine or even enough when the problem comes from exactly from how they choose to pay and support creators
What do you mean?! Please explain what you mean by "how they choose to pay and support creators"? You can't just drop extremely vague sentences like that without something to back it up.

No, you laid out site functionality and features that are necessary for them to allow creators to efficiently create content for them.

They are not doing that because they care, lol.
You do realize that there can be multiple parties who win out of creating creator tools right...? I didn't think I had to actually explain this. YouTube obviously didn't make these tools completely unrelated to profit, they made them for the creators that earn them profit! YouTube earns 45% of creator revenue! Both parties win here. Creators get best in class tools to maximize their chances at success and YouTube gets to keep running their platform. The creator marketplace and YouTube is intertwined by design. The way the entire YouTube monetization system works plays against your argument. YouTube cares about creators making money because it makes them money, and it grows the platform considerably.

If your argument is seriously just "YouTube doesnt care about creators personally as people" I think I'm just gonna bow out here.

It's awesome that Google provides tools to help creators.

Just because they do that doesn't mean they also don't treat creators like shit.

See the recent issue with the removal of the dislike button. Pretty much every content creator was against it's removal and YouTube pretty much ignored their complaints.

Then there's the whole can of worms that is the copyright strike system and the mess that it is.

Google does some great things with YouTube, but they also do a lot of really bad things as well.
Saying YouTube treats their creators "like shit" is pretty inflammatory and doesn't really hold up.

Not every YouTuber hates the dislike button change. For example, YouTuber Hank Green doesn't think its a big deal and you'd find that there are a lot of creators that don't mind the removal, it's just a loud segment who dislike the change. That doesn't mean their opinions are incorrect as there's certainly room for argument there, but it's not as cut and dry as you're saying. Also, it's still visible for creators which unsurprisingly goes against the "youtube hates creators" narrative.

The copyright system has its issues but this isn't really a YouTube problem, except for a few smaller things that have mostly been ironed out. Tom Scott I think explains this the best in this video.
 
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astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,760
You do realize that there can be multiple parties who win out of creating creator tools right...? I didn't think I had to actually explain this. YouTube obviously didn't make these tools completely unrelated to profit, they made them for the creators that earn them profit! YouTube earns 45% of creator revenue! Both parties win here. Creators get best in class tools to maximize their chances at success and YouTube gets to keep running their platform. The creator marketplace and YouTube is intertwined by design. The way the entire YouTube monetization system works plays against your argument. YouTube cares about creators making money because it makes them money, and it grows the platform considerably.

If your argument is seriously just "YouTube doesnt care about creators personally as people" I think I'm just gonna bow out here.
You're being so incredibly disingenous now, or you've just drowned in the koolaid. Either way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,935
Knew this day would come. Just gotta hold out for whatever grass roots replacement comes, but still, gotta say it's a pretty shitty feeling.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,760
Exactly what it feels like debating with you.

Are you completely unaware of the huge amount of content creators who have posted the many ways that YT proves they put their bottom line above their community?

Do you not understand the way they prop up certain types of creators who create content that actively harms a good deal of their community?

They don't care about their community, they pay lip service to LGBTQ, women, poc, etc... while enabling people who spread hate and only clamping down when it reaches a critical point that threatens their bottom line.

There are so many ways they shit on their community. Features sets and ease of use is how they grow their platform for their own benefit, it doesn't mean they care.
 

Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
Exactly what it feels like debating with you.

Are you completely unaware of the huge amount of content creators who have posted the many ways that YT proves they put their bottom line above their community?

Do you not understand the way they prop up certain types of creators who create content that actively harms a good deal of their community?

They don't care about their community, they pay lip service to LGBTQ, women, poc, etc... while enabling people who spread hate and only clamping down when it reaches a critical point that threatens their bottom line.

There are so many ways they shit on their community. Features sets and ease of use is how they grow their platform for their own benefit, it doesn't mean they care.
This is a vague, non-descript list of issues with no examples or evidence applied to them. Hey, it's exactly like your previous argument.

Look, all I wanna hear is that you know adblocking is piracy and you're okay with that. That's all I wanna hear! It doesn't mean you're a terrible person, it just means you know the impact but you don't really care.
 
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astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,760
This is a vague, non-descript list of issues with no examples or evidence applied to them. Hey, it's exactly like your previous argument.
The Quartering is a content crerator who regularly posts harmful content that helps perpetuate bigotry and hate, which actrively harms a lot of people. If YT cared about its creators people like this would not be allowed on the platform.

A single exmple, there are many more.

And there are /countless/ examples of content creators speaking up about the ways YT has shat on parts of the community.

You know this already, though.
 

Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
The Quartering is a content crerator who regularly posts harmful content that helps perpetuate bigotry and hate, which actrively harms a lot of people. If YT cared about its creators people like this would not be allowed on the platform.

A single exmple, there are many more.

You know this already, though.
This is an entirely separate argument. Can we just skip to you admitting that adblock is piracy? Once I get that, I'm good
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,760
This is an entirely separate argument. Can we just skip to you admitting that adblock is piracy? Once I get that, I'm good
It's not at all, it is part of the evidence that shows they do not carte about their community.

Ironically, though, it is true that your comment has nothing to do with our current discussion.

Liike I said, you are incredibly disingenous.
 

Austriacus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
736
Its interesting that there are people in here proclaiming that blocking ads is essentially piracy. Tbh im kind of shocked, a couple years ago this thread would have been devoid of that feeling entirely i think.

I wonder if it has something to do with how common in people parasocial relationships with influencers are nowdays, something like "these people are not giving money to my dudes, they are not rewarding them for all the work they put into making content!" and such

The video is being hosted on the internet without any paywall, watching it under any terms is fair game. Piracy is not the theft of ad revenue, and its not a moral obligation to support influencers on the internet.
 

R0987

Avenger
Jan 20, 2018
3,072
Damn background playback was the one thing I used this app for guess I'll use the app till it stops working then move on to
newpipe assuming that it wont be C&D by Google as well by then since I'm afraid that they might go after more alternative youtube apps after this one.
 

Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
It's not at all, it is part of the evidence that shows they do not carte about their community.

Ironically, though, it is true that your comment has nothing to do with our current discussion.

Liike I said, you are incredibly disingenous.
You have dodged and avoided every piece of evidence I've given you in this discussion. You are absolutely one of the most disingenious posters I've ever interacted with, and fail to understand even basic facts about the platform. Please don't participate in discussions about things you know nothing about, it's just a waste of everyones time.

The video is being hosted on the internet without any paywall, watching it under any terms is fair game.
This isn't true. There is a paywall, and it's being removed by third party programs to make the content free so the platform and creators aren't paid.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,760
You have dodged and avoided every piece of evidence I've given you in this discussion. You are absolutely one of the most disingenious posters I've ever interacted with, and fail to understand even basic facts about the platform. Please don't participate in discussions about things you know nothing about, it's just a waste of everyones time.
I mean, you have to be trolling at this point as all you're doing is describing your own posting style itt lol.

You and I were specifcially discussing the idea that they care about their communuity.

They will add features that make it more efficent for people to make them money, but they won't crack down on bigotry and hate that actrively harms large parts of their community. That ins inherent to the above idea and cannot be decoupled from it.

Countless content creators over the years have made videos to show how they shit on their community in various ways, and it's often the case that they only ever retract or make positive changes in this context when they re eive blowback that could affect their bottom line.

The fact you have, twice now, ignored my argument and built the strawman of "but you need to admit adblock is piracy" just shows how disingenous you are, and everyone reading can see it.

You're going on ignore.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,212
Can we just skip to you admitting that adblock is piracy?
It's by definition not:
3a: the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright
b: the illicit accessing of broadcast signals

Is it actually immoral? I guess. Depends on who you ask. But no court of law will ever agree with adblocking being piracy. It's just not.

Now, there are ways to assuage anyone thinking it's immoral by using things like Ghostery or AdNauseum which let the ads play in the background but don't show them/randomly click all ads on a page as a form of obfuscation and while still letting the ad-servicers get their clicks (tho with fake clicks). That's another can of worms tho.

I won't even get into the privacy and security aspects of ads.

End of the day, if ads were served right in the first place – or even just not actively getting fucking worse, things wouldn't ever have needed to go in this direction.

There's a middle ground here and YouTube, imo, fails to concede at every juncture.
 

Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
You and I were specifcially discussing the idea that they care about their communuity.
No we weren't. You said that YouTube treats Creators poorly, and I refuted that statement with evidence. Creators are different than the "community", whatever that means. That's an incredibly broad and vague term that doesn't really define anything, as there are billions of YouTube users.
You're going on ignore.
Good.
 

Austriacus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
736
You have dodged and avoided every piece of evidence I've given you in this discussion. You are absolutely one of the most disingenious posters I've ever interacted with, and fail to understand even basic facts about the platform. Please don't participate in discussions about things you know nothing about, it's just a waste of everyones time.


This isn't true. There is a paywall, and it's being removed by third party programs to make the content free so the platform and creators aren't paid.

Influencers getting payed when i watch an ad is not a paywall, its an advertisment while watching something for free. When i skip ads im not commiting piracy, im just skipping ads. The fact that influencers need me to watch the ad is not my problem. This is why many of them have their own sponsors in a video (which i skip with another add on as well) which gives them actual money on a prior agreement that doesnt neccesitate me to actually consume the ad (becoming no different than tv)

No matter how you try to rationalise it, nobody is stealing a product by skipping advertisments, they just dont wana be sold something. If someone goes into their patreons and leaks stuff tho, now thats different.
 

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
Q: Is using ablocker piracy?

A: No

Q: Is using adblocker immoral?

A: No

Q: Should anyone feel bad about using it on youtube?

A: Nope
 

Jokerman

Member
May 16, 2020
7,292
Isn't Premium competitively priced compared to other streaming options? I use YouTube far more regularly than, say, Netflix, which is nearly 10x the price I pay.