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Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
15,934
To simplify my point, I'll just point to this thread where clearly no one knows what the word divisive means, but they just like saying it.

www.resetera.com

Divisive games you consider a 10/10

DK 64 maybe?

I feel people do the same thing with a lot of commonly used phrases online today.

It was just explained to me that Armored Core 6 is divisive game because it got an 86 on metacritic. Can we be serious?
 
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Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,229
This is what I mean by just repeating criticism. AAA games are homogenized, but how many Metroidvanias comes out every week. How many farming games. But if we point that out then we're just picking on people that like those genres apparently for simply stating a fact.

The word derivative exists and means something, but everyone likes saying safe, soulless, homogenenized and shitting on AAA games (while putting over other games guilty of the exact same shit, just made by devs they like) so we just repeat what they said even though thinking about it for at least 5 minutes would make you go "well, everyone says that, but is it REALLY true?"

If we're gonna be doing this overly cynical, everything has to be a contest, validate my taste thing, I just wish we could do it more honestly because the picking and choosing gets to me.

I don't see how calling something "derivative" is really any different than calling something "homogenized" other than you for some reason being more favorable for one word over another.

It's not just a case of repeating criticism. Many of us on a site like this have been playing games for decades and so are quite familiar with the history and trajectories of various genres. Obviously not everyone is out to reinvent the wheel with every new game, but it's not at all surprising that people may pick up on aspects of game design that over time significantly lessen the individuality of games within a genre. For example the popularization of "revenge" meter type mechanics in fighting games post Street Fighter IV. That was a mechanic that was extremely well suited to Street Fighter at the time, but now shapes the entire genre of games, including games that historically would not have been reliant on such mechanics such as Tekken. It leads to a lot variety within a genre to be sanded away where two wildly different styles of games grow ever closer to meeting in the middle.

I'm not sure why commenting or pointing such a thing is such an issue, or why a person doing so needs to go the extra mile to drag a bunch of random indie games in order to validate their opinion. Of course there are tons of extremely derivative indie titles... many are designed explicitly to resemble or replicate classic games of the past. But there's a difference between a lot of games being made within the same genre, and all games within the same genre making the same core gameplay decisions. It's the latter that AAA gaming suffers more heavily from, due to the financial need to be palatable to the widest audience, whereas novelty is often the reason why one indie game stands out and apart from the rest.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,367
I don't think this is fair.

For a start, frame pacing issues (an element of frame rates and performance) can give people headaches and motion sickness etc...

Also, wildly uneven frame rates can be incredibly distracting and mess with gameplay directly. There is input lag at lower fps, and if the flucuates wildly you can experience shifts in input lag that mess with your timing. For some games this will matter less, like turn based RPGs for example, but for others like fighting games or FPS it can make a big difference.

When it comes to solid 30fps vs 60fps or something, I can understand as there's weird hyperbole on both sides there. Put that aside though, and I really can't undersrand you calling this entire topic valid when higher FPS makes games feel so much better for a lot of people.

Like, I personally can't play an FPS at 30fps anymore and have a good time. That might seem ridiculous to you, but just consider that lot of us have become so used to playing at higher FPS that the drop to 30 in certain games and the input lag and lack of responsiveness that comes with it will put us off playing.

I tried Suicide Squad recently. The game couldn't lock 60fps and had dips into the 30s. The only choice I had was lock it to 30 which is something that feels too bad for me for a game that requires quick reactions, or put up with wild swings in FPS and all the issues they cause.

Again, I get being put off by some of the hyperbole surrounding this topic, but I really can't undersrand calling the topic vapid as a given. It's not. FPS is a major factor of game feel that can't be ignored, even if you personally aren't affected by the issues that can arise.

See but your example highlights the problem. What is anyone supposed to say in response to your Suicide Squad paragraph? There's nothing to discuss.

"The framerate sucks"
"ok"

It's more akin to a tweet than a discussion post.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,258
See but your example highlights the problem. What is anyone supposed to say in response to your Suicide Squad paragraph? There's nothing to discuss.

"The framerate sucks"
"ok"

It's more akin to a tweet than a discussion post.
Except I didn't just say "the Frame rate sucks" I explained why it was an issue for me, too.

There is nothing any more "vapid" about that then you complaining that some people share their opinions on these things.

There are also far more ways to respond than just "OK".

Also, pretty sure you as well as everyone here has shared an opinion before that wasn't an invitation for direct discussion and was just you... sharing your opinion, lol. Nothing wrong with that.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
15,934
I don't see how calling something "derivative" is really any different than calling something "homogenized" other than you for some reason being more favorable for one word over another.

It's not just a case of repeating criticism. Many of us on a site like this have been playing games for decades and so are quite familiar with the history and trajectories of various genres. Obviously not everyone is out to reinvent the wheel with every new game, but it's not at all surprising that people may pick up on aspects of game design that over time significantly lessen the individuality of games within a genre. For example the popularization of "revenge" meter type mechanics in fighting games post Street Fighter IV. That was a mechanic that was extremely well suited to Street Fighter at the time, but now shapes the entire genre of games, including games that historically would not have been reliant on such mechanics such as Tekken. It leads to a lot variety within a genre to be sanded away where two wildly different styles of games grow ever closer to meeting in the middle.

I'm not sure why commenting or pointing such a thing is such an issue, or why a person doing so needs to go the extra mile to drag a bunch of random indie games in order to validate their opinion. Of course there are tons of extremely derivative indie titles... many are designed explicitly to resemble or replicate classic games of the past. But there's a difference between a lot of games being made within the same genre, and all games within the same genre making the same core gameplay decisions. It's the latter that AAA gaming suffers more heavily from, due to the financial need to be palatable to the widest audience, whereas novelty is often the reason why one indie game stands out and apart from the rest.

So when it's an indie games it's "going the extra mile" and we're dragging them. "Dragging". But when it's AAA it's just a little comment or pointing something out. That is the language are choosing to use when you when it takes less effort and it's even more obvious. The whole point about being purposefully selective about these things just not coming across.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,229
So when it's an indie games it's "going the extra mile" and we're dragging them. "Dragging". But when it's AAA it's just a little comment or pointing something out. That is the language are choosing to use when you when it takes less effort and it's even more obvious. The whole point about being purposefully selective about these things just not coming across.


No, somebody absolutely could make similar comments surrounding indie games if they so choose to. I'm saying that in doing so they don't need to address every potential issue another poster such as yourself may take on it. I just highlighted the fighting genre with Street Fighter and Tekken to make a point.. but if someone were to rush in quote my post and be all like "oh yea, well what about SMASH!? Huh?" then I'd be confused as to what they think they're achieving with such a post. You can state an opinion without having to extrapolate it and argue with yourself within the confines of a single post.

"AAA games have grown to be very similar to each other in order to try and appeal to everyone at once"
"Well there's tons of indie Metroidvanias!"
"umm... ok? cool?"

Do you expect someone to think up your potential response and then decide not to post their genuine opinion based on that? It's not even a directly related response. You don't know that they don't equally avoid the hordes of Metroidvanias also.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,892
I think a lot of people are way too focused on high resolutions these days.

720p at 60fps with good texture filtering looks really good when playing at a normal distance.

I'll even go as far as saying 360 and PS3 games with their bad framerates and crappy texture filtering can still look perfectly acceptable too. I think it looks considerably better on modern 4K TVs than it did on the LCD TVs of the early 2010s.

I think anything above 1440p is just a waste of resources, and I'm even counting with reconstruction. Reconstruct up to 1440, then let the TV scale the rest of the way to 4K, and it still looks amazing.
 

Tsumami

Member
Feb 3, 2022
5,149
QTEs are fine. They didn't deserve the backlash they got.

gg.gif
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
15,934
I think a lot of people are way too focused on high resolutions these days.

720p at 60fps with good texture filtering looks really good when playing at a normal distance.

I'll even go as far as saying 360 and PS3 games with their bad framerates and crappy texture filtering can still look perfectly acceptable too. I think it looks considerably better on modern 4K TVs than it did on the LCD TVs of the early 2010s.

I think anything above 1440p is just a waste of resources, and I'm even counting with reconstruction. Reconstruct up to 1440, then let the TV scale the rest of the way to 4K, and it still looks amazing.
But what's a "normal distance"? Playing Hades on my Switch vs Series S is a night and day difference for me to where I'll never go back to the former. Don't like it on my TV so I play on my monitor which I sit closer to. Steam Deck rings closer to 1080.

So are we talking, TV distance, monitor distance or handheld distance?
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,892
But what's a "normal distance"? Playing Hades on my Switch vs Series S is a night and day difference for me to where I'll never go back to the former. Don't like it on my TV so I play on my monitor which I sit closer to. Steam Deck rings closer to 1080.

So are we talking, TV distance, monitor distance or handheld distance?

TV distance. Like sitting on a couch and playing a TV at a comfortable distance.

Playing on a monitor 1 foot away is a pretty different experience.
 
Aug 31, 2019
2,699
I think a lot of people are way too focused on high resolutions these days.

720p at 60fps with good texture filtering looks really good when playing at a normal distance.

I'll even go as far as saying 360 and PS3 games with their bad framerates and crappy texture filtering can still look perfectly acceptable too. I think it looks considerably better on modern 4K TVs than it did on the LCD TVs of the early 2010s.

I think anything above 1440p is just a waste of resources, and I'm even counting with reconstruction. Reconstruct up to 1440, then let the TV scale the rest of the way to 4K, and it still looks amazing.
Definitely agree with the last paragraph. You can even math it if you like: https://goodcalculators.com/tv-viewing-distance-calculator/

Maybe you sit very far away, but 720p is definitely rough, even just on stuff like UI elements.
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,885
I think a lot of people are way too focused on high resolutions these days.

720p at 60fps with good texture filtering looks really good when playing at a normal distance.

I'll even go as far as saying 360 and PS3 games with their bad framerates and crappy texture filtering can still look perfectly acceptable too. I think it looks considerably better on modern 4K TVs than it did on the LCD TVs of the early 2010s.

I think anything above 1440p is just a waste of resources, and I'm even counting with reconstruction. Reconstruct up to 1440, then let the TV scale the rest of the way to 4K, and it still looks amazing.

That's just wild to me. 720p would be blurry as hell on any TV we have in this house.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,892
That's just wild to me. 720p would be blurry as hell on any TV we have in this house.

It's a bit soft, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

There's a couple things that really made me realize that I'm ok with 720p

The first was getting a dock for our Steam Decks. My wife played through all of Control on her Steam Deck and even though it was 720p I thought it looked fine once you were actually playing. I think part of what helped is the Steam Deck can integer scale.

The second was playing Fallout New Vegas on the Series X. It's still 720p, but it boosts to 60fps and has forced 16x anisotropic filtering, and I think it looks clean as heck. Sure some edges shimmer a bit, but it's really not bad at all.

I ended up moving my PS3 to my main TV and thought it looked fine. Played through all of Singularity. Sure the image quality wasn't as good as modern games, but it was easy enough to move past and just enjoy the game.
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,885
It's a bit soft, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

There's a couple things that really made me realize that I'm ok with 720p

The first was getting a dock for our Steam Decks. My wife played through all of Control on her Steam Deck and even though it was 720p I thought it looked fine once you were actually playing. I think part of what helped is the Steam Deck can integer scale.

The second was playing Fallout New Vegas on the Series X. It's still 720p, but it boosts to 60fps and has forced 16x anisotropic filtering, and I think it looks clean as heck. Sure some edges shimmer a bit, but it's really not bad at all.

I ended up moving my PS3 to my main TV and thought it looked fine. Played through all of Singularity. Sure the image quality wasn't as good as modern games, but it was easy enough to move past and just enjoy the game.

Well, I guess the thing is that for me, I can forgive older games for their graphics. I can load up stuff on my N64 and that thing chugs. I can't really forgive modern games for having poor fps or resolution, though. There are so many Switch games that just run poorly with bad image quality.

FF7 Rebirth is probably going to be my favorite game this year, but I still really disliked having to choose between a mode that looked like a choppy 30fps and a mode that was blurry at 60fps.
 

PJTierney

Social Media Manager • EA SPORTS WRC
Verified
Mar 28, 2021
3,723
Warwick, UK
Need for Speed Hot Pursuit shows that the series doesn't need to rely on customisation to provide a good experience.
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,520
So I just played the first two Bioshock games for the first time (wild, I know).

Not gonna argue that it's *better* but I enjoyed 2 waayyy more than 1.
 

blamite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,577
Text and UI in 95% of games is way, way too small.

Force every developer making a console game to play it while sitting 6 feet away from a 50" TV and this will be fixed overnight.
 
Dec 2, 2021
843
I don't think any of this is an issue personally. All games like this require suspension of disbelief. Unless a game like this we're to constantly shift between a tonne of protagonists as each one dies in a believable way, it's going to feel inconsistent at some point due to the simple nature of it being a video game.

This also doesn't really have much to do with the specific points I brought up above.

Now, a game that actually does shift between say a dozen protagonists as each one dies in a variety of ways from heroic deaths to freak accidents could be really cool.
Other games aren't trying to be realistic(at least to the same extent) though and Last of Us is explicitly trying to not be like other games, especially when it comes to violence.
When you stab someone-if you watch reference videos, which we have, it's gross and it's messy it's not sanitized like you see in most movies and games. And we wanted to get the player to feel that.
We definitely wanted this game to feel as grounded as possible," Gross told GamesRadar. "So a lot of research was done by every department, you know, the animators, the art directors, we wanted the violence to feel real so that the trauma could feel authentic.
Even if it wasn't though. Outside of maybe Lev and Ellie being Robin Hood jrs, It's not really a game thing. The stuff I'm talking about is just what the story is and comes from their penchant for violence and general edgy aesthetic tastes. Like I mentioned, we have the show and it still has this over the top stuff in it. Even with them specifically trying to address the videogameeness, especially the action and violence.
But that doesn't exist in a passive medium. One of the things that I loved hearing from [co-creator Craig Mazin] and HBO very early on was, 'Let's take out all the violence except for the very essential.'
They had 2 opportunities to tone down what Joel did at the end of the first with Part 2 and the show and they didn't. This is just what they want the series to be. Which is totally fine(it's a series with mushroom zombies, it can be a little fantastical), but that's not what it's supposed to be.

Why this is relevant to what you said is because the audience wouldn't treat Joel like he's John Wick if the games didn't themselves. Nobody watching Walking Dead goes "bullshit, Glenn wouldn't have been gotten like that" because the series treats them like a normal person. Where Daryl probably would because he, similarly to Joel, exists in heightened reality. Joel even in the games is mythologized. Look at what Tommy does in Part 2 and even he says he has nightmares about what Joel used to do. Pretty much everybody that knows Joel besides Tess allude to his reputation. He's able to find Ellie after she gets abducted by David in like 20 minutes because he's torture Sherlock.

Neil's description of Abby and her friends feeling's in the scene with Joel is they think he's literally the devil and all just stand and stare at him when he says his name because they're frozen with fear. Because of course they would, he left hallways filled with bodies and blood. You can't jump from that to he's just a silly guitar playing old man who's lost his edge from domestic living and be surprised people wont immediately buy into that. Especially when it doesn't come across. The moment happens just 2 minutes after Joel does the action movie thing of racing into the World War Z zombie horde on horseback to rescue Abby.

Like imagine if we got the trailer version of the game where Joel and Ellie go out for one last adventure to get revenge on whomever and Joel is just as much of a murder machine as the first. Would your immediate reaction be thinking it's unrealistic and there's no way Joel could still be this good? If not, then you can't expect others to feel the opposite , right?

Don't get me wrong , a lot people would still whine about it. Largely for stupid and misogynistic reasons. But there wouldn't be as much, "Joel would never" if they showed a bit more restraint.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,258
Other games aren't trying to be realistic(at least to the same extent) though and Last of Us is explicitly trying to not be like other games, especially when it comes to violence.


Even if it wasn't though. Outside of maybe Lev and Ellie being Robin Hood jrs, It's not really a game thing. The stuff I'm talking about is just what the story is and comes from their penchant for violence and general edgy aesthetic tastes. Like I mentioned, we have the show and it still has this over the top stuff in it. Even with them specifically trying to address the videogameeness, especially the action and violence.

They had 2 opportunities to tone down what Joel did at the end of the first with Part 2 and the show and they didn't. This is just what they want the series to be. Which is totally fine(it's a series with mushroom zombies, it can be a little fantastical), but that's not what it's supposed to be.

Why this is relevant to what you said is because the audience wouldn't treat Joel like he's John Wick if the games didn't themselves. Nobody watching Walking Dead goes "bullshit, Glenn wouldn't have been gotten like that" because the series treats them like a normal person. Where Daryl probably would because he, similarly to Joel, exists in heightened reality. Joel even in the games is mythologized. Look at what Tommy does in Part 2 and even he says he has nightmares about what Joel used to do. Pretty much everybody that knows Joel besides Tess allude to his reputation. He's able to find Ellie after she gets abducted by David in like 20 minutes because he's torture Sherlock.

Neil's description of Abby and her friends feeling's in the scene with Joel is they think he's literally the devil and all just stand and stare at him when he says his name because they're frozen with fear. Because of course they would, he left hallways filled with bodies and blood. You can't jump from that to he's just a silly guitar playing old man who's lost his edge from domestic living and be surprised people wont immediately buy into that. Especially when it doesn't come across. The moment happens just 2 minutes after Joel does the action movie thing of racing into the World War Z zombie horde on horseback to rescue Abby.

Like imagine if we got the trailer version of the game where Joel and Ellie go out for one last adventure to get revenge on whomever and Joel is just as much of a murder machine as the first. Would your immediate reaction be thinking it's unrealistic and there's no way Joel could still be this good? If not, then you can't expect others to feel the opposite , right?

Don't get me wrong , a lot people would still whine about it. Largely for stupid and misogynistic reasons. But there wouldn't be as much, "Joel would never" if they showed a bit more restraint.
I appreciate you putting the effort in to your reply here, but I just completely disagree that any of this is an actual issue with the game.

Joel's murder rampage is no more ridiculous than anything we see from many characters in Part 2, or much of the ridiculous stuff we see him and Ellie do in Part 1 before that. For a shooter to actually be fun... we need encounters that are entirely unrealistic, and we bend the story as best we can around it.

Feats in game are exaggerated because... it is a video game. In reality, Joel, Abby, Ellie, Tommy... they all do ridiculous super hero tier shit constantly. The fact the game is going for realism in many ways isn't in conflict with this at all because we know it is a video game and not reality. We suspend our disbelief when video game shit happens.

It's not a fault of the game that some people aren't able to do this.

-

I'll add to this a bit:

I understand the dissonance here, and that suspension of disbelief can go too far for some people.

The video game medium as a whole is not perfectly suited to telling more grounded realistic stories unless a developer decides to make a very specific type of game.

There was always going to be disonnance in a game that is both a shooter with this kind of encounter design and a story being told about characters who are also flawed and human, but I don't think that's a failing of the game itself and simply limitations of the medium resulting in situations where (if the game design is going to be fun AND tell a more grounded tale) we need to suspend our disbelief of the video game aspects causing friction with the lore and meet the creators halfway.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
5,892
The correlation is kind of clear there. While the rest of us are using 1080p screens and up and saying 720 doesn't look great on those.

720p looks like butt on a 1080p screen. I'd argue that 720p looks better on a 4K TV than it does on a 1080p TV. Even though most 4K TVs don't do integer scaling of 720p I think the higher pixel density allows for a much nicer interpolated image than 1080p does.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,229
I think 240p on a 13 or 21 inch CRT looks far better than 720p on a 1080 or 4K set.

Yea, CRT generally looked more pleasing in general than fixed panel screens do (and plasma looked nicer than LCD / OLED imo). What I was just adding is that along with non-native scaling, the larger screens also cause lower resolutions to be less tolerable than there were on older sets.
 

genericbrand

Member
Oct 28, 2017
315
The correlation is kind of clear there. While the rest of us are using 1080p screens and up and saying 720 doesn't look great on those.

Someday people will have 8k televisions that can integer scale from a lot of popular resolutions but those TV's will mangle it instead with its built in scaling tech and then devices input that don't do it either or people don't have the option turned on. 1440p good too. Wonderful 720p to 1440p integer scalling
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,103
I think a lot of people are way too focused on high resolutions these days.

720p at 60fps with good texture filtering looks really good when playing at a normal distance.

I'll even go as far as saying 360 and PS3 games with their bad framerates and crappy texture filtering can still look perfectly acceptable too. I think it looks considerably better on modern 4K TVs than it did on the LCD TVs of the early 2010s.

I think anything above 1440p is just a waste of resources, and I'm even counting with reconstruction. Reconstruct up to 1440, then let the TV scale the rest of the way to 4K, and it still looks amazing.
To each their own, but I can't agree whatsoever. And I'm saying that as someone who still uses a 720p plasma in their bedroom, regularly. It's what I play Switch and 1080p games on...

But I can absolutely tell the difference that higher fidelity and resolution makes, and I enkoy and prefer it. To the extent that it shapes my standards. Framerate too. I want higher resolutions whenever possible. I won't prioritize them over higher framerates, but I'll take what I can get.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,825
I'm interested in what you have to say here but it's a little too vague for me to really parse.

I'm not smart enough or qualified enough to really add anything and this is my point, essentially. I'm not equipped to say something like the Marvel v Capcom Infinite mod initiative currently underway rubs me the wrong way because I completely understand I would be mis-construed. This is one example.

But it (that post of mine) is a sort of follow up thought to something I posted about a page ir so back. The video-based gaming news cycle is far too leaning into editorial and opinion based reporting and it's something we should acknowledge is lost from the written form.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,760
A game can be considered "divisive" even if it had a very high score on review aggregate sites, sold well, and was up for Game of the Year awards. Critics and media circles are not the end-all-be-all of what is and isn't popular. There are films and albums that were extremely well received by those kinds of metrics but have fan reception that is obviously more controversial if you spend a modicum of time on forums/fandoms. I don't just think it's a vocal minority of people.

This is to say that, yes, I consider GTA4, Doom Eternal, and the Last of Us Pt. 2 to be divisive video games, even if it can be hard to point to a specific metric that would indicate that as such.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,429
Trying to force a "for newcomers!" angle can harm a game. More games should be made that assume the player has played a previous entry. We would get way more interesting sequels that way.
 

Turnscr3w

Member
Jan 16, 2022
5,264
Trying to force a "for newcomers!" angle can harm a game. More games should be made that assume the player has played a previous entry. We would get way more interesting sequels that way.
You didn't put any example so I'm having a difficult time imagining your point.
Would you say SF6 is a less interesting sequel to SF5 l, because of it's mechanics? MKX to MK11 as well?
What about TF:C to TF2?
Or UMVC3 to MvCI?
Aren't you basically arguing that sequels should function as updates rather than being a new game?
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,429
You didn't put any example so I'm having a difficult time imagining your point.
Would you say SF6 is a less interesting sequel to SF5 l, because of it's mechanics? MKX to MK11 as well?
What about TF:C to TF2?
Or UMVC3 to MvCI?
Aren't you basically arguing that sequels should function as updates rather than being a new game?
Eh I wasn't really thinking of multiplayer games here.

Square marketing Rebirth as a "perfect jumping in point for newcomers" when it's really not. And that's not a bad thing. It's a sequel, embrace it!!

I think if more devs designed games where they assumed players had played the previous game, things could ramp up in complexity/difficulty quicker. FF7R part 3 is gonna have even more combat options than Rebirth. I'd prefer less onboarding time, kinda just wanna be thrown in the deep end with all options unlocked.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,825
Events over the past few days underscore how much I have always disliked the 'companies are not your friend' chestnut. Not only are they your friends, they're a friend who has wronged you. Hell hath no fury etc etc.

I think much of it has to do with the allure of the incentivised memberships being the first thing we gravitate towards, whereas a usual agreement (traditionally) clearly outlines exactly what is expected of you before you get the goodies.

This could be as something as frivolous as a person's first discussion about household chores with their family when they are young, something like sports or music lessons as extra curricular activities, or something more sophisticated and serious by comparison (one's first job out of either school or after tertiary education, a loan, etc).

Many, many people when it comes to gaming and gaming accounts either didn't learn this crucial two-way-street stuff when they needed to, in a rush to get in on what they may have thought was the 'ground floor', and this is yet another example.
 

Tabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,411
Maybe I'm just going crazy but Helldivers 2 just isn't that good? Like, I don't get the hype. I could just be playing Warframe instead, it's basically the same thing instead it's slower, sluggish with a different setting.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,760
Eh I wasn't really thinking of multiplayer games here.

Square marketing Rebirth as a "perfect jumping in point for newcomers" when it's really not. And that's not a bad thing. It's a sequel, embrace it!!

I think if more devs designed games where they assumed players had played the previous game, things could ramp up in complexity/difficulty quicker. FF7R part 3 is gonna have even more combat options than Rebirth. I'd prefer less onboarding time, kinda just wanna be thrown in the deep end with all options unlocked.

People aren't going to like this suggestion, and even I don't really like it, but technically making the "sequel" a hefty DLC expansion or just an expansion pack in general sidesteps this issue entirely.

Events over the past few days underscore how much I have always disliked the 'companies are not your friend' chestnut. Not only are they your friends, they're a friend who has wronged you. Hell hath no fury etc etc.

I think much of it has to do with the allure of the incentivised memberships being the first thing we gravitate towards, whereas a usual agreement (traditionally) clearly outlines exactly what is expected of you before you get the goodies.

This could be as something as frivolous as a person's first discussion about household chores with their family when they are young, something like sports or music lessons as extra curricular activities, or something more sophisticated and serious by comparison (one's first job out of either school or after tertiary education, a loan, etc).

Many, many people when it comes to gaming and gaming accounts either didn't learn this crucial two-way-street stuff when they needed to, in a rush to get in on what they may have thought was the 'ground floor', and this is yet another example.

I don't really get what your point here is. Usually the idea behind the "corporations are not your friend" is that they're not people. Because they're not. Like that's just objectively true. They respond to market forces, not emotions. All it means is to not form a parasocial relationship with an entity that isn't even human. What context do you see the phrase used in that any of the rest of what you're saying here matters?
 

CheapJi

Member
Apr 24, 2018
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When done right review bombing is an amazing tool that has shown time and time again that it works.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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I don't really get what your point here is. Usually the idea behind the "corporations are not your friend" is that they're not people. Because they're not. Like that's just objectively true. They respond to market forces, not emotions. All it means is to not form a parasocial relationship with an entity that isn't even human. What context do you see the phrase used in that any of the rest of what you're saying here matters?

I'm just saying the pendulum can swing the other way.

Our parents or earlier generations might have had the same thing happen to them.

I am not a diehard fan who has watched every episode but I saw a clip from Always Sunny once where they (the characters, who are also the writers?) parodied how time share properties can deceive prospective buyers.

That happened in real life to my parents.