Had Yakuza 0 sitting on my PS4 for a few months now due to Playstation Plus, this makes me want to start it ASAP.
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Yakuza 3 remaster cut transphobic elements from original game
- Thread starter RPGamer92
- Start date
Why not keep the discussion tied to Yakuza?
Where Kiryu wanting to kill someone in the main story is legitimately treated as a "OH MY GOD, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SAYING" moment in Yakuza 6.
But you do when it's senseless violence. Look at how Hatred was received. Violent games constantly go out of their way to contextualize the violence in a way that makes it "less bad". And even then it doesn't always work, just look at how many people make fun of the death count in Uncharted, even though everyone Nate kills would kill him if they got the chance.
It's also almost always a stylized representation of violence, when you get things like torture scenes and such, they always become controversial, so it's not all that much of a leap to assume that a game that has you putting as much effort to cut off someone's leg for no reason as you would in real life would have its share of controversy as well.
The game insulting trans people is not contextualizing it in any meaningful way (and good luck finding a good context for it that doesn't involve the character learning and becoming better about it during the course of the story), and isn't really stylized at all either, deadnaming for example is done in the exact same way people face that issue in real life. When I shoot people or get shot in a videogame, it doesn't bring back memories of people in my family who were murdered with guns, but the way a game can be transphobic is pretty much exactly the same way people suffer transphobia in real life.
There's also the cultural thing where violence was normalized with many many many many years of it being romanticized in media, of being shown as heroic. You can find that an issue as much as you want, and it's a discussion worth having, but you don't change such a long time of cultural normatization with a single forum discussion. You can't change the fact that one of the actions with the most satisfying feedback developers found in videogames is violence, in order to just remove violence from a game while losing nothing. Now tell me about the satisfying feedback of being transphobic.
Violence has some context that is at least somewhat understandable (in case of these games, Yakuza is a (group of) criminal organization(s), criminal organizations often involve violence). Transphobic content where it's just about laughing at some manly looking transgender person and it has nothing to do with exploring larger themes of bigotry against transgender people and its profound effects on transgender people within the story, then that kind of content can just kindly fuck off. "It's just a joke" is not a good reason to include bigoted shit that has nothing to do with the story & themes otherwise and that bigotry isn't taken seriously. Creative people and their works aren't holy, they aren't beyond criticism and they certainly aren't beyond some worthwhile editing/alterations when some problematic aspects exist (such as removing blatant bigotry that brings nothing to the table or has nothing to contribute to the topic).
And it's not that all transphobia should be barred from games, but if you include transphobic content in your games, you BETTER have something actually meaningful to say about the topic of bigotry against transgender people AND handle that transphobic content VERY carefully. If it's just about having a laugh at their expense (often by using offensive stereotypes and/or language), it has absolutely zero value to anything and is better removed.
Glad we agree
That's fine but don't bring up violence here as if it's relevant to the discussion/problem. If you want to talk about violence in games, make another thread or find a relevant one.
It's not a double standard or anything. The two issues just have nothing to do with one another. You come off as sounding like you're trying to gloss over the trans issue by bringing up violence. Just don't bring it up in this context.
You can make an argument that westernised cultures fetishize violence but consider sex a tabboo – but even that has nothing to do with transgender issues.
I know this dude is banned but it needs to be said.
People did get outraged over violence in games. It happened loads outside of gaming communities. Even in gaming communities a lot of people were upset over the game Hatred because they thought it went too far. So this guy is talking out his ass.
He also ignores that the argument against transphobic material isn't that it makes people transphobic, the argument is it makes transgender people feel unsafe and uncomfortable. So it should be removed to not be a dick. At least that's how I see it framed here more often than not.
There's no doubt that media can influence people, it's why propaganda exists, but it's not this uncontrollable force. If you go into a video game that uses violence with the belief that violence is wrong you won't end the game thinking violence is suddenly acceptable. If you already think violence is okay it will just reconfirm your bias.
In the same that people who watched antisemtic films in WW2 era were already predisposed (is that the correct word?) to accept antisemitism, but if you showed that film to a liberal progressive now they wouldn't leave the theater an antisemitic.
So transphobic material is hurtful to transgender people but also harmful to society in that it can reconfirm biases people have of trans people. The idea that they're predators for example. That they "trap" men. All this stuff is gross and untrue.
The fact that Michiru rapes Kiryu if you fail the chase sequences is what makes it overtly transphobic in my book. The whole thing is played off like a joke, and it's just perpetuating tired gay panic stereotypes at the expense of a group that already suffers so much, for the sake of a clunky prison rape joke.
This is one of the reasons why I feel the Yakuza devs are sincere and WANT to improve their games in LGBTQ aspects.Just gonna leave this here. More proof the Yakuza devs are legit. Persona Devs hold that L.
I have also to say... every fucking time this whole "censorship"-crying comes up you always can tell that these people don't care about the thing being censored. It's always being mad at devs for the "political" statement behind a cut like this.
Yakuza 3 had a side quest that featured a trans woman with the game calling her "it" and "guy". Furthermore, she chases Kiryu around town to kiss him with all of it being played for comedy. It's fucked, tropey, unnecessary and I'm glad they removed it. This isn't a first for the serious either with some really questionable stuff but I'm glad they got rid of it.
RPGamer92 Could you put my post in the OP for context?
Goddamn. Didn't remember this quest at all. Good to see it gone, nothing of value is lost.
Post ban reply I know, but just to address this.
It helps to think about the intent and effect of the transphobic content in Yakuza 3, which attempts to create comedy out of a sterotypical portrayal of the queer community as sexually aggressive predators, a trope that is behind a lot of real life violence (up to and including murder) against that community. This alone means its exclusion from future remasters isn't on the same level as the degree of violence, which is not taken at the expense of an already socially, legally and existentially imperiled community.
This is not to say that we can't talk about the nature, degree and use of violence in Yakuza games.
Just that this thread is not the time and place for it.
4 remastered right? If so how is it handled there?
I think I read an article some time ago stating they want to handle it close to the source material but tastefully (or with class i think?) as times are different now than they are in the past. I Think that was the gist of it, If i find the source I can definitely shoot it your way.
Not a fan of the editing out content from the original game if this is suppose to be a remaster. I am on board for minor QOL improvements/tweaks but taking out this I think sort of makes it different to the original. I totally get why SEGA did this though, can't blame them.
EDIT: If it's just one or two lines however, this isn't a big deal. Taking out a mission or something relevant to the story is a different ballgame(For me). That would make the remaster feel less.
EDIT: If it's just one or two lines however, this isn't a big deal. Taking out a mission or something relevant to the story is a different ballgame(For me). That would make the remaster feel less.
Michiru is just a character in Y4. There's no chase scenes or alleyway rape in 4, and she's just treated like another recurring NPC, if memory serves.
Michiru existing isn't the problem as much as the way they chose to use her in 3.
This was from a sub-story, not an actual critical element to the overall storyline. You could play through the original release and never run into her because sub-stories are optional.
I get you. I was just wondering how she is being used in 4. Its been years since i played the game. I appreciate explaining it.
Yeah, she's definitely not presented nearly as problematically in 4 as she was in 3. I barely even remembered she was in 4 until people reminded me, whereas that stupid "that was even worse than prison" brick joke is lodged in my brain like a piece of broken glass.
They can remove every pursuit side quest from Yakuza 3 and I wouldn't care. It's by far the worst controlling, least mechanically satisfying and boring part of the game.
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup. It was one of those things they clearly added in to show off their new engine's improvements over the PS2 games, and it was just...never worth the effort in actual practice. It shows, since they made it less and less prominent as the series went on, too.
Oh, that's good to hear. It's been a bit and I'd forgotten how they implemented her in 4.
How do 3, 4 and 5 hold up? I thought they were doing Kiwami style remakes. I've only played 0 and Kiwami 1 in the series so far.
No, for 3 4 and 5 they are doing straight up remasters. 1080p/60 FPS. However, it means any video content is still going to be (upscaled) 720p and 30 FPS.
Yakuza 5 should hold up much better than 3 or 4, because 0 was built on a modified Yakuza 5 engine. Yakuza 5 was the first game on the PS3 which rendered full 720p on the console, because of the new engine, Yakuza 3 and 4 were both sub HD.
Played through them all back to back last year and they are all fine and I had no problem playing through them on the PS3. PS4 versions are great with 60fps and 1080p.
They hold up. Y3 & Y4 dont feel far off at all from Yakuza Kiwami. Y5 is essentially on the same engine as Kiwami.
The big issue with the remasters is that after playing games like 0 (peak Yakuza, gameplay-wise) and Kiwami 2 (peak Yakuza, engine-wise), 3 is going to feel like a PS2 game by comparison. It's a very, very pared-down experience compared to the later PS3 installments, and its story is...not great.
It's still Yakuza, and there's still stuff to love in there, but if any game in the PS3 subseries needed more tweaks than just graphics, it would be 3. It very much feels like a "we're still figuring this console out" kind of game.
This is a good thing. That said, once I'm done with Yakuza 0, Kiwami and 2 Kiwami I'm probably just going to play the PS3 version since I ended up procuring it and it's a rare find since it's physical only and all. And it's not like the PS4 version is confirmed to be localized anyway.
In case of game preservation PS3 games are easily rippable and emulatable, stuff is preserved.As for stuff getting changed in the re-releases well we have a notable actor change in Y4 because the actor retired and the contract was up and do you call replacing them censorship or a blight to game preservation? It's a way bigger change than just a side-quest but no one is burning with anger as some people demanding to leave transphobic shit in.
I think most people realize it's kind of hard to be mad at RGG Studio for changing Tanimura's actor when they're legally prohibited from reusing that actor's likeness.
I'd also say most actual fans of these games are also ok with the changes to Y3, even glad that they care. There are some babies out there who'd rather burn everything down for kiwami 2 not having a small side-area or the wrong posters in the arcade, which is just eye-rolling and the type of nerd-rage that makes you question some people's priorities.
Of course there are those who just flame up on the mere mention of the topic regardless of which game and crash into the threads angry that some devs dare be progressive.
Again: this isn't censorship. It's the creators of the game making changes to their own product because the scenes in question are out of character with the series and Kiryu as a whole.
Removing content from the original because someone might get offended. Yeah, they're censoring their own game. And out of character with the series? This kind of thing happens in the series all the time. The bizarre side quests are one of the best things about the series.
It's more notable than a voice actor change i guess, but what can you do it's a game-specific thing that happens sometimes. The main guys in these games aren't real people so for me i don't have that much to worry about since i am not so attached to the extra guest character played by some actor.
Oh please.
This isn't censorship in any way, this is the developers themselves removing something they feel shouldn't be in the game.
Kiryu gets raped by a transwoman in an alley and cracks a joke about it being worse than prison. It's not funny, it's not cute, it's not bizarre. It's just transphobic gay-panic nonsense. The series is better for losing this substory.
Nonsense? In a way. Funny? Absolutely. If this happened in real life, obviosuly it's not funny. Thankfully, it's a video game and complete fiction. Let's remove everything else that might offend people while we're at it. It's fucking lame.
I mean the real actor, the fact that he had to retire for something like that. I'm still salty about Hideki Taniuchi.
It's not funny in-game. It's making light of a long-running, offensive stereotype that's been leveled against gay and trans people for decades. It also doesn't mesh well with the way Kiryu sees the world, either - Kiryu doesn't judge people unless they hurt or take advantage of innocents.
Is your name a joke on this? Because lame gag is all that side-quest amounts to. Are you angry about people apologizing about their past problematic jokes too?
You can find their comedy stand-ups just fine if you just want to shower in those bad jokes, but people apologizing and having a release that doesn't feature it is the offensive part? You can just go back and play the old version if it strikes your fancy you aren't losing access to your bad jokes.
What if they grew as people.
I dunno why the assumption is always that they still hold these views and felt forced to change.
So you don't like my opinion so you're only answer is to want me banned. That's one of the problems with modern society. I'm entitled to my view.
