Should there be a new OT?

  • Yes

    Votes: 451 53.6%
  • No

    Votes: 391 46.4%

  • Total voters
    842

TheRaidenPT

Editor-in-Chief, Hyped Pixels
Verified
Jun 11, 2018
6,020
Lisbon, Portugal
Those decisions Xbox made, pro-consumer or not, led them to where they are now. It's up to you if it was worth it.

There isn't a world where Xbox suddenly 'turns it around' either. This is what's happening. They're not stemming the bleeding from here.

It makes sense for the long term of the Xbox brand to go multi-plat and try to get to as many players as possible.

Once the Switch 2 and PS5 Pro come out, it was gonna be even harder to compete.

On the upside I'm curious to see what they do in terms of refresh and announcements come the Showcase
 

Granjinhaa

Member
Dec 28, 2023
3,680
Those decisions Xbox made, pro-consumer or not, led them to where they are now. It's up to you if it was worth it.
what a weird thing to say. pro-consumer choices didn't lead them here, a lot of their fumbles did. stuff like game pass or releasing on PC or play anywhere didn't hurt them, bad localization, constant messaging fumbles, bad marketing and (much) more did.
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,950
I don't know if Xbox could release a new system early. Never mind that it usually takes years of planning to launch of a console anyways but they were able to release the Xbox 360 early and be successful because the games looked far and away better than what was available on the OG Xbox and PS2. For 12 months, you could only play Call of Duty 2 and Oblivion on Xbox 360 (on consoles). Would a new system in 2025 really offer that much of an upgrade over what we have now? What would be the killer app to get people to abandon their current consoles early and get a brand new box?
2027. TES and Blade (or at least Blade if TES isn't ready).
 

Check it out

Member
Oct 25, 2017
544
I just think moving on too quickly and not fulfilling your software promises (i.e. all of the currently announced games besides Blade and TES) would piss off the tens of millions who did buy a Series and they would question whether to buy a next gen console. I'd be annoyed if I bought a console for all these games announced in 2019-2021 and then they ended up being next gen games.
I don't think next gen means leaving behind the series x/s. I just think they are so far behind they need to treat their "mid gen" console equivalent like a new model and not an enthusiasts only device. Almost every console ever has had a mid gen refresh this just needs to be marketed differently. If they go the power model they just need to make it easy for developers and if they go the portable avenue they would just need to make it similar enough to the S in power.

What would be the killer app to get people to abandon their current consoles early and get a brand new box?

Portability or consistent 4K/60 with the ability to push out 120 on lower resolutions. Framerate seems to be the king of conversation since the end of last and beginning this generation, when in the past it was solely how pretty a game looked.
 

NDA-Man

Member
Mar 23, 2020
3,326
what a weird thing to say. pro-consumer choices didn't lead them here, a lot of their fumbles did. stuff like game pass or releasing on PC or play anywhere didn't hurt them, bad localization, constant messaging fumbles, bad marketing and (much) more did.

In the wake of Tango, weren't there XBox marketing execs and "anonymous sources" who spoke to McAffrey who said GP (and ATVI) got them here?
 

Azerth

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,285
what a weird thing to say. pro-consumer choices didn't lead them here, a lot of their fumbles did. stuff like game pass or releasing on PC or play anywhere didn't hurt them, bad localization, constant messaging fumbles, bad marketing and (much) more did.
but they kind of did. gamepass got people to stop buying xbox games because they can just sub to gamepass. pc told people that you dont need an xbox to play ms games. sure theres alot of other issues that helped bring them to where are now
 

Granjinhaa

Member
Dec 28, 2023
3,680
In the wake of Tango, weren't there XBox marketing execs and "anonymous sources" who spoke to McAffrey who said GP (and ATVI) got them here?
no. the sources were two former execs that left xbox quite a while ago, they didn't work there during ATVI or Game Pass. And Activision was not something for the "consumer", it was for money - but that one certainly helped. Ryan just asked for their opinion on current matters, nothing there was "inside info".

but they kind of did. gamepass got people to stop buying xbox games because they can just sub to gamepass. pc told people that you dont need an xbox to play ms games. sure theres alot of other issues that helped bring them to where are now
Xbox still sells a ton of software. Just look at NPD and more. but yeah, sure, if you want to believe that.
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,950
I know, that's the joke :(

Would really be swell for both to turn out well and make Blade have a well deserved resurgence
I think they will. Lots of hype for the movie even despite the problems, and the game is Arkane Lyon so little reason to worry (if someone feels the need to respond with a cheeky comment about Redfall and "Arkane can do no wrong" just don't bother).
 

DiegoPaulino

Member
Aug 24, 2023
3,105
Those decisions Xbox made, pro-consumer or not, led them to where they are now. It's up to you if it was worth it.

There isn't a world where Xbox suddenly 'turns it around' either. This is what's happening. They're not stemming the bleeding from here.

Sorry but, beside game pass and a next gen console cheaper then the Switch, I can't name a single thing that the Xbox team made in the last 10 years that was pro consumer for the console only people. All decisions they made were to get this kind of people away from their Brand.

"Oh, you can now play our games on PC!" And what It benefits us who only have money to play on console or doesn't Care about Pc Gaming?

"Oh, but now you can stream It on your mobile Phone!" Same thing as before.

They did all this pro consumer things and forgot to do the only thing that matters, bring your Own games to the platform. Now they're harvesting what they planted
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,707
38EogDY.png


It's tough out here folks
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,950
Era: I am a consumer and I enjoy all these pro-consumer things Xbox is doing

Also Era: actually these pro-consumer things were bad and shouldn't have been done even though I am a consumer
 

PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,806
United States
N64, GameCube and Wii U were all commercial disasters. Nintendo was able to survive these down sale consoles by supplementing with a handheld in the Game Boy Advance, an absolute commercial home run with the Wii and the greatest console ever in the Switch. The rumors of the portable Xbox make sense to try to supplement the commercial failure of the XBone and XSX/S but I don't see how they can differentiate themselves too much from the available options. Steam Deck seems to have that market locked.

The difference in these scenarios is that Nintendo stayed agile and continued to rely heavily on exclusives. They were true to their ethos and it ended up paying off. People eventually realized they wanted to play Nintendo games and they weren't just for kids as was the reputation in the early 2000s. Most of their decisions were based on finding their niche.

Microsoft doesn't seem to have a clear vision except to make the most money possible. They tried to trick consumers by parading Phil In cute t-shirts (suits are never our friends)but as soon as real money was invested (Activision) the ROI became king. It's going to be fascinating to watch them squirm and pivot to win back any unwarranted trust. I don't think they'll ever get mine back, which is fine, I don't think they really care.

Mainly as an aside, I don't really think you can call the Xbox One a commercial failure at 60 million units, and I dont really see how steam deck can have any market locked with 3 million sales or whatever. But yeah Series is in like N64 territory at this point :-/

Your point about ethos is interesting. For me the Xbox "ethos", as much as they had one, was always mainly about importing PC advantages to console in a way that made them more approachable and useable for the mass market. Online play, digital distribution, the hard drive, networking and Xbox LAN parties, enhanced back compatibility, indie games (summer of arcade etc), streamlined Western RPGs or first-person shooters like Mass Effect, Oblivion, Halo, Call of Duty 4. And obviously the entire backend technical side, basing it on DirectX and using x86 (usually).

Of course there are other currents in there like the Sega successor titles and Kinect and so on but that PC lineage is the main thing for me.

From that point of view, going full multiplat and shipping some sort of hero PC/console hybrid device is like the ultimate version of that vision. If they have some software based way to deliver the console library and console experience going forward, I don't necessarily need a dedicated console only "xbox."

But I don't really understand how that works from their perspective - i.e. is it a locked down PC, or a full PC and they price accordingly, or it's really a console with some alternative stores? And I fear it will turn into Surface. Niche products that barely sell and are due for the chopping block any day.
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,950
Sorry but, beside game pass and a next gen console cheaper then the Switch, I can't name a single thing that the Xbox team made in the last 10 years that was pro consumer for the console only people. All decisions they made were to get this kind of people away from their Brand.

"Oh, you can now play our games on PC!" And what It benefits us who only have money to play on console or doesn't Care about Pc Gaming?

"Oh, but now you can stream It on your mobile Phone!" Same thing as before.

They did all this pro consumer things and forgot to do the only thing that matters, bring your Own games to the platform. Now they're harvesting what they planted
This is an incredibly selfish attitude. "If it doesn't directly benefit me and only me then they shouldn't do it."

Edit: Also, besides Game Pass and the Series S, which are the two biggest ones ??????
 

DiegoPaulino

Member
Aug 24, 2023
3,105
Microsoft is so pro consumer to Xbox that make their games on the other platforms to play better and have better optimization.

But maybe they're pro consumer, but where the consumers actually are 🤔
 

PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,806
United States
Sorry but, beside game pass and a next gen console cheaper then the Switch, I can't name a single thing that the Xbox team made in the last 10 years that was pro consumer for the console only people. All decisions they made were to get this kind of people away from their Brand.

"Oh, you can now play our games on PC!" And what It benefits us who only have money to play on console or doesn't Care about Pc Gaming?

"Oh, but now you can stream It on your mobile Phone!" Same thing as before.

They did all this pro consumer things and forgot to do the only thing that matters, bring your Own games to the platform. Now they're harvesting what they planted

Enhanced back compat is the huge obvious one that they did a lot of work to enable, benefitting only console players.
 

disparate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,198
Sorry but, beside game pass and a next gen console cheaper then the Switch, I can't name a single thing that the Xbox team made in the last 10 years that was pro consumer for the console only people. All decisions they made were to get this kind of people away from their Brand.

"Oh, you can now play our games on PC!" And what It benefits us who only have money to play on console or doesn't Care about Pc Gaming?

"Oh, but now you can stream It on your mobile Phone!" Same thing as before.

They did all this pro consumer things and forgot to do the only thing that matters, bring your Own games to the platform. Now they're harvesting what they planted
BC, play anywhere.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,707
Even if they go fully day one multiplatform publishing I don't expect them to get rid of hardware completely. It's what been speculated and talked about for months now. They may just end up shipping a less subsidized, or non-subsidized, enthusiast machine that is more PC-centric but runs some kind of emulation layer or shell or whatever to bring your digital library from Xbox forward.

They might be a software/services company, but they still have an entire consumer and developer ecosystem they want to keep you/devs invested in.

6158d22ea007c94771fb80ed5ea2d482.png


"Make the GDK the one-stop-shop for building games on Microsoft platform, including other PC ecosystems"

They want you using Visual Studio, and GitHub (and CoPilot), but also use middleware like PlayFab, Havok, Simplygon, etc, and cloud services like Azure. Then to tie it off they want you to sell your software on their Store. And that software will be "universal" and run on an Xbox or PC, so even if they are shipping to Steam it can still be easily packaged or sold on the Microsoft Store.

Why would they cut out the "Target Platform" part of this pipeline if it's still profitable and a key part of their vision?
 

DiegoPaulino

Member
Aug 24, 2023
3,105

Play anywhere is the same their investments in PC, it doesn't benefits those of us who can't make the jump to Pc gaming. This is less "fuck the Pc master racers!" and more "oh, thats near but I can really get any benefit from It"

And BC was cool, I give them that. I wish If that's really a next gen console they can continue with It.
 

PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,806
United States
Play anywhere is the same their investments in PC, it doesn't benefits those of us who can't make the jump to Pc gaming. This is less "fuck the Pc master racers!" and more "oh, thats near but I can really get any benefit from It"

And BC was cool, I give them that. I wish If that's really a next gen console they can continue with It.

Play Anywhere really comes to life as a console benefit with a ROG Ally. Highly recommend it if you're interested and have the cash.
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,950
Even if they go fully day one multiplatform publishing I don't expect them to get rid of hardware completely. It's what been speculated and talked about for months now. They may just end up shipping a less subsidized, or non-subsidized, enthusiast machine that is more PC-centric but runs some kind of emulation layer or shell or whatever to bring your digital library from Xbox forward.

They might be a software/services company, but they still have an entire consumer and developer ecosystem they want to keep you/devs invested in.

6158d22ea007c94771fb80ed5ea2d482.png


"Make the GDK the one-stop-shop for building games on Microsoft platform, including other PC ecosystems"

They want you using Visual Studio, and GitHub (and CoPilot), but also use middleware like PlayFab, Havok, Simplygon, etc, and cloud services like Azure. Then to tie it off they want you to sell your software on their Store. And that software will be "universal" and run on an Xbox or PC, so even if they are shipping to Steam it can still be easily packaged or sold on the Microsoft Store.

Why would they cut out the "Target Platform" part of this pipeline if it's still profitable and a key part of their vision?
Exactly. Y'all aren't losing your precious boxes now or any time soon (said as someone who plays almost exclusively on Xbox consoles).
 

Granjinhaa

Member
Dec 28, 2023
3,680
new role

Search Jobs | Microsoft Careers


The Xbox Experiences and Platform Commerce (XPC) team is looking for a Principal Engineering Lead to run one of our Monetization & UGC (User Generated Content) teams. In this role, you will manage a passionate group of software engineers to build a broad set of reliable, highly scalable distributed services. Our mission is to enable game developers to build sustainable economies and creator communities that invite players to participate in and contribute to experiences they love. Your team will be responsible for the design, development, and operation of those services to ensure delightful and reliable experiences for customers (e.g. game studios and developers).

no, really, it's arkane lyon. am i missing a joke lol
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
5,126
Iunno. Feels like GaaS games can come late and still hit. There's this base still built in, playing, talking about it, engaging with the title online. Even years later. So, maybe counter to the prevailing wisdom, I feel like GaaS games DON'T need to be day and date. They can come over when they need a boost as long as they are actually good games. Sea of Thieves didn't need Playstation to be a hit. It differentiated the Xbox platform and is now mopping up some extra revenue as the game transitions into another phase. Forza Horizon obviously doesn't need Playstation to be a hit. If the GaaS game is good, it is going to find the audience later or early. No matter imo. So, you differentiate the platform with a period of exclusivity and then you potentially bring them over to make a second debut. It's also the case you don't need a second marketing beat for GaaS for reasons already listed where you do for single player games.

Who was Sea of Thieves competing with when it came out? It grew a dedicated audience in a time where competition was light and held into it. I really wonder how it would fare as a new IP if released in 2024.

I think a GaaS that isn't multiplatform is going into a fight with the biggest games in the industry with a handicap. It is a friction point for people even trying a new GaaS game of their group of friends is split by the available platforms.
 

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,931
Honestly I don't really get all the dooming here. People are acting like Xbox has sold like Wii U level numbers instead of the around 30 million units it's actually sold. Sure, it's been outsold 2:1 in total and in recent quarters being outsold close to 5:1 but y'all act like this is some impossibly doomerist scenario...

In reality we're watching the console market contract in real time and Xbox is just getting hit harder because it's the smaller system and has weaker marketing and worldwide presence. But I really don't get why y'all are acting like this is suddenly the end of console gaming from Xbox or think that they're going to stop being an eco-system
 

Azuos

Member
Sep 29, 2021
1,012
Kinect was awesome, I remember spending the day in my cousin's home just to play Kinect Adventures all day.

So nostalgic.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,707
Honestly I don't really get all the dooming here. People are acting like Xbox has sold like Wii U level numbers instead of the around 30 million units it's actually sold. Sure, it's been outsold 2:1 in total and in recent quarters being outsold close to 5:1 but y'all act like this is some impossibly doomerist scenario...

In reality we're watching the console market contract in real time and Xbox is just getting hit harder because it's the smaller system and has weaker marketing and worldwide presence. But I really don't get why y'all are acting like this is suddenly the end of console gaming from Xbox or think that they're going to stop being an eco-system
Self-fulfilling prophecy fears i guess
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,950
Honestly I don't really get all the dooming here. People are acting like Xbox has sold like Wii U level numbers instead of the around 30 million units it's actually sold. Sure, it's been outsold 2:1 in total and in recent quarters being outsold close to 5:1 but y'all act like this is some impossibly doomerist scenario...

In reality we're watching the console market contract in real time and Xbox is just getting hit harder because it's the smaller system and has weaker marketing and worldwide presence. But I really don't get why y'all are acting like this is suddenly the end of console gaming from Xbox or think that they're going to stop being an eco-system
👆👆👆
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,722
I don't think next gen means leaving behind the series x/s. I just think they are so far behind they need to treat their "mid gen" console equivalent like a new model and not an enthusiasts only device. Almost every console ever has had a mid gen refresh this just needs to be marketed differently. If they go the power model they just need to make it easy for developers and if they go the portable avenue they would just need to make it similar enough to the S in power.



Portability or consistent 4K/60 with the ability to push out 120 on lower resolutions. Framerate seems to be the king of conversation since the end of last and beginning this generation, when in the past it was solely how pretty a game looked.

I don't think the wider audience really cares that much about framerate and even among hardcore gamers, let's be real, it became less of a concern once their platform of choice wasn't able to output high frame rates and high fidelity consistently. Most people aren't dropping another $500 or more to play games at 120 fps.

Portability would put them in direct competition with Nintendo and that would mean stacking their first party lineup against theirs. That's a hard hill to climb. I just don't see an easy way for Microsoft to release a new console early. They still ultimately need those games that drive people to the platform. Based on what they currently have in the pipeline, I don't see them having that, especially when those titles will also land on Series X/S.
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,950
Portability would put them in direct competition with Nintendo and that would mean stacking their first party lineup against theirs. That's a hard hill to climb.
I think the game offerings are different enough and appeal to different audiences and tastes that this wouldn't be as big of a concern. People would still want Fallout or Forza or Halo or Fable on the go, even though they can get Zelda and Mario.
 

Clippy

Member
Feb 11, 2022
2,231
Honestly I don't really get all the dooming here. People are acting like Xbox has sold like Wii U level numbers instead of the around 30 million units it's actually sold. Sure, it's been outsold 2:1 in total and in recent quarters being outsold close to 5:1 but y'all act like this is some impossibly doomerist scenario...

In reality we're watching the console market contract in real time and Xbox is just getting hit harder because it's the smaller system and has weaker marketing and worldwide presence. But I really don't get why y'all are acting like this is suddenly the end of console gaming from Xbox or think that they're going to stop being an eco-system
Why assume 5:1 is the floor? What's stopping hardware continue tumbling toward never seen split levels, and impossibly low lows? Like besides it being a gloomy story.

Simply citing tens of millions sold before the strategy shift tells us nothing.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,363
but they kind of did. gamepass got people to stop buying xbox games because they can just sub to gamepass. pc told people that you dont need an xbox to play ms games. sure theres alot of other issues that helped bring them to where are now

If they had 30 or 40% more subscribers than they do - which would have been possible if their console+pc strategy was significantly better executed - we would not be having these conversations today.

I won't belabour the point but I think their decision to stick with the Windows store on their PC as it's delivery mechanism, despite seeming somewhat inconsequential at the time, may have almost single handedly kneecapped Gamepass growth potential. There were many other problems they had in many fields - game development struggles, game quality struggles, regional screwups, marketing failures, inability to deliver content on a consistent schedule... but I think even if all that still happened, PC should in theory have been able to be a safety net, and it just wasn't.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,804
If they had 30 or 40% more subscribers than they do - which would have been possible if their console+pc strategy was significantly better executed - we would not be having these conversations today.

I won't belabour the point but I think their decision to stick with the Windows store on their PC as it's delivery mechanism, despite seeming somewhat inconsequential at the time, may have almost single handedly kneecapped Gamepass growth potential.

Correct. It's also weirdly a group that Phil has no direct power over. So getting them to update the store has proved fruitless. Anyhow, Steam would have been the better option on PC.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,707
If they had 30 or 40% more subscribers than they do - which would have been possible if their console+pc strategy was significantly better executed - we would not be having these conversations today.

I won't belabour the point but I think their decision to stick with the Windows store on their PC as it's delivery mechanism, despite seeming somewhat inconsequential at the time, may have almost single handedly kneecapped Gamepass growth potential. There were many other problems they had in many fields - game development struggles, game quality struggles, regional screwups, marketing failures, inability to deliver content on a consistent schedule... but I think even if all that still happened, PC should in theory have been able to be a safety net, and it just wasn't.
They do not have the kind of consistent first party output to warrant a Steam game pass option. They can't offer day one access on Steam and they don't have a non-day one plan. And to have a compelling non-day one plan it would need to be consistent and still be fairly expensive (given the Steam cut and further cannibalisation of sales).
 

Bessy67

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,748
I won't belabour the point but I think their decision to stick with the Windows store on their PC as it's delivery mechanism, despite seeming somewhat inconsequential at the time, may have almost single handedly kneecapped Gamepass growth potential. There were many other problems they had in many fields - game development struggles, game quality struggles, regional screwups, marketing failures, inability to deliver content on a consistent schedule... but I think even if all that still happened, PC should in theory have been able to be a safety net, and it just wasn't.
They didn't really have a choice. No other storefront would allow a subscription that takes away sales. There's nothing in it for Valve or whoever unless MS gave them a cut of the subscription money, and that wasn't going to happen.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,707
They didn't really have a choice. No other storefront would allow a subscription that takes away sales. There's nothing in it for Valve or whoever unless MS gave them a cut of the subscription money, and that wasn't going to happen.
It's not that a storefront wouldn't allow for a subscription. EA Play is available on Steam and PlayStation for example. But EA Play Pro isn't. And EA Play only offers games that are 9-12 months old and doesn't include any third party stuff.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,363
They do not have the kind of consistent first party output to warrant a Steam game pass option. They can't offer day one access on Steam and they don't have a non-day one plan. And to have a compelling non-day one plan it would need to be consistent and still be fairly expensive (given the Steam cut and further cannibalisation of sales).
They didn't really have a choice. No other storefront would allow a subscription that takes away sales. There's nothing in it for Valve or whoever unless MS gave them a cut of the subscription money, and that wasn't going to happen.

Not talking about getting it onto other stores. I mean literally the use of UWP and the windows backend.

What they should have done is built their own traditional x86 app store that allowed them to mirror the simple, usable functionality of every other PC store in existence. They can have bugs, but the scale and nature of the errors and technical issues faced by the UWP delivery mechanism were almost unthinkable, and we routinely saw people saying things like "I tried PC gamepass for 2 weeks and it broke my computer and I had to format it - I am never touching this again".

The reputation it had amongst PC gamer circles was poison. It was the kiss of death. Even though it's relatively more stable now it still has significant issues and reputational damage was deep and long lasting.

The reason this didn't happen was presumably two-fold: firstly political, as doing this would be seen as a slap in the face to the windows division, and secondly because integrating with the UWP was the least effort option and already had a number of games ported to it from the 2015-2018 period. Presumably at the time, people said "no its fine, we can fix it" - but they couldn't, and they didn't, not meaningfully.

The consequences of being shackled to it even go beyond reputational, it has functional limitations that screwed it over hard. Shackling themselves to console update schedules (weeks behind Steam and other PC stores in many cases), mod support being defficient (or non existant), etc.