With Quiet it's not just the costume. But how she shoves her ass in your face in the chopper etc. Quiet could had been really cool overall but Kojima really dropped the ball with her. There are aspects I like about her, but it gets ruined by the bullshit.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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This is exactly how it works for women, I sincerely don't get how it's so hard to grasp. Male sexualization in games is the rarest shit and trying to compare it to female sexualization is straight up disingenuous. 0
No trick, just that Quiet is an existing attractive character suddenly reduced to sex object for nonsensical plot reasons rather than good writing. It's out-of-context with existing characters and story as everything is sacrificed for tits-and-ass rather than it being an element of her character as a whole. Funnily enough, ripped fishnets and a nonsensical approach to battlefield clothing aren't a requirement to be seen as sexy.
Sexy people in various states of undress is absolutely cool as part of a healthy visual medium, but when it's so severely unbalanced that it's almost the default for female characters to be sex objects first and an interesting character second, when the first impression of male characters tends to be how cool/strong/competent they are instead, that medium has a problem.
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Honestly, I feel like it requires a generous amount of disingenuousness. "What do you mean Dhalsim is not literally male Rainbow Mika?", lol okay.
Another similar character by Tim Schafer
Dialog with Guybrush:
http://monkeyisland.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Kate_Capsize
What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this? Trying to avoid guys like you.
Come here often? Once TOO often, obviously.
I can hold my breath for ten minutes. You'll have to wait longer than that to pick ME up.
You know, they call me the Bone Master. I'm surprised anyone calls you at all.
You know, I could really fall for a girl like you. Hopefully off a cliff.
If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? Just the part with the knuckles.
What's your sign? No trespassing.
How'd you like to come up and see my etchings? How'd you like a nice Fruit Punch?
Wanna feel my muscles? Call me when you find one.
Has anyone ever told you you have beautiful eyes? Has anyone ever swallowed that line?
Wanna see my scar? I've seen lobotomies, thanks.
Let's get out of here and go someplace we can talk. Preferably long distance.
Aren't you a famous model? Aren't you a famous jerk?
Wanna help me search for buried treasure? How would you like to BE buried treasure?
You look like a pretty classy babe, you must be a stewardess. I guess I was wrong when I thought you couldn't possibly be as dumb as you look.
You'd be in good hands with me, baby. You can go be in your OWN hands, creep.
Absolutely, every aspect of every game should be open to criticism. A fanservice heavy character will always be criticized as such. However, I think it would be FAR less of an issue if those characters became significantly less prevalent. Personally, my main interest is to start seeing much better representation of females and seeing far less sexual exploitation of women in games.
I think you should post more like the second one, then ask "imagine 70% of all videogames now force you to play as and / or linger on the crotches and asses of characters like these. How confortable does that make you feel?".
Reposting for reference:
I've never been forced to play a video game.I think you should post more like the second one, then ask "70% of all videogames now force you to play as and / or linger on the crotches and asses of characters like these. How confortable does that make you feel?".
Reposting for reference:
As a guy, this topic always kinda weirds me out, because I feel so out of sync with the (at least vocal) majority (key word there: please, no one derail this by saying that I'm saying that all men do this, 'cause I'm not. Nowhere close, and I know that's the case and would never argue something like that. And unfortunately, it seems like it kinda has to be at least be a (vocal) majority, or else these type of things wouldn't have become so common and so prevalent and never would have become so much of a thing to begin with) of the rest of my sex. 'Cause for me, despite being bi, I have never really cared much about fanservice and over-sexualized designs either way. I've always just thought they look completely ridiculous and kinda just take me out of the experience more than anything. Particularly when it's as completely over the top and needless as Quiet in MGS V or Camilla in Fire Emblem: Fates, but stuff like Cindy in FF XV makes me roll my eyes as well with how needless it is as well. I don't need that stuff in my games; I'm just trying to play the games themselves. That's what's all about, right? The games, and it wouldn't actually make a difference at all if those designs were sexualized or not, since they'd still be the same great games either way right?
But when I read this topic, it feels like so many people think the designs are just as important as any other part of the game and it would impact their fun if they were changed. And I just... don't get that at all, and it makes me feel out of sync with other men, because it wouldn't harm my enjoyment at all either way if they weren't so sexualized. If anything, I'd enjoy the games more myself if characters like Camilla weren't so over the top and I didn't have to watch that ridiculous pandering nonsense. And knowing lots of women would be able to enjoy the games more as well would be a pretty nice bonus for something that doesn't actually harm or affect me in any way regardless, as that stuff ain't what I like about those games or care about to begin with.
Like.. if I really do want to be aroused or something, just watch porn. That's literally what it's there for. I'm not such a horny animal that not only do I need porn, but I need to be titillated by sexy and arousing designs every time I watch a tv show or movie, or play a game or whatever as well, as if that's the only way to get or maintain my attention. That's not just off-putting and makes those games less welcoming to women, but it really starts to get to me too these days because even putting that entirely aside (which it by no means should be--far from it, but putting it aside regardless for the moment) like what... do the devs really think that my attention will be lost if T&A aren't being shoved into my face? That they don't have enough faith on the game to sell on its own merits, in terms of gameplay, narrative, level design, etc, and that my interest will be lost if I don't have some fanservice design to seal the deal on top of all that?
Or is that just what the devs who make these kind of decisions think and that they're projecting onto their male audience or something? Because either way, I don't get it and it just makes me feel kinda out of sync with the rest of my sex, because I don't care and if anything would prefer for that stuff to be toned down. I just want to play the game; that's way I'm playing a game in the first place instead of just watching porn or something, y'know? If I wanted to be aroused or whatever, I'd just watch porn instead.
I'm choosing to play a game for a reason and getting aroused or seeing hot & sexy women or whatever ain't really it. If anything, that kinda stuff creeping in anyway just kinda gets in the way and completely takes me out of the experience and just reminds me I'm playing a game and stuff, so even as a guy, I struggle to understand why that's stuff there (except when it actually is there for a rather specific story or character reason that actually makes sense, but unfortunately that's not the norm). Like that is, unless.... Do other guys actually take a break to jack it when they see one of these designs or something? I wouldn't think so (god, I hope not at least), but if not, what difference does it make? Like at all? If I want to be aroused, I'll watch porn or something. But when I'm playing a game, I just want to focus on the game itself. And this stuff has nothing to do with whatever that reason is, whether it's the gameplay, the story, the characters, exploration, or whatever. I'd enjoy it just as much whether it's there or not, because that has literally nothing to do with why I'm playing the game in the first place--all that other stuff is why I'm playing the game. Else, I'd just be watching porn or something instead of playing a game. So what would be lost, even if that stuff were to be more toned down? Nothing important, and women would feel more comfortable playing the games as well, so it seem like a net-gain if anything.
I just don't get what the big deal is, and why so many men are so defensive over these designs, when they have so little to do with what makes the games so great to begin with, nothing would be lost anyway, and women would feel more comfortable to boot, which just makes me feel so out-of-sync with the rest of my sex sometimes. I, really, really don't. But either way, that's how I feel about it. I just don't see what there's to be so defensive about in the first place or how the games would suddenly be inferior or what would really be lost at all if this stuff were to be toned down and tweaked, and only see gains if anything, so well.. yeah. That's where I'm at on all this these days. I just feel really out of place for thinking that way sometimes as a man, because it seems like so many other men are just happy to eat that stuff up and happy to be told that they apparently do need that stuff to be able to enjoy something even when they themselves know that's not true and would say as much if really pressed on it (at least, I'd like to think so anyway), but that's how I feel regardless, if that makes sense at all. Apologies if it doesn't.
And thinking about it, as a bit of an aside one last thing that's kinda weird is that a common refrain in threads regarding Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is "so what if the designs of Rex and Pyra are stupid? You going to let that stop you from playing the game? There's so much else to the game than just that! You really going to give it all up just because of that?" Even ignoring the other problems with that argument a moment, doesn't that knife cut both ways? Like, if that's indeed the case, then wouldn't people be able to play the game just as well if Pyra's design wasn't so stupid, that you'd be able to play the game just as well? That there's no real point in her being designed like that, and the game wold end up being just as good as it likely will end up being if she wasn't (particularly when X had already fixed this problem with you being able to choose a cosmetic armor set and 2 is a complete regression from that, creating a completely unnecessary and previously-completely-fixed problem, but I digress)? If not, what's the difference? Why does that knife only cut one way? Because that just seems like it's admitting that the designs don't matter and the game would be just as good if it wasn't like that in the first place, since there's apparently "so much else to enjoy." Or is that not the case after all? I know that's a complete aside, but it still seems somewhat relevant to the topic, and it always bugs me when it comes up, since it seems so self-defeating to me. But I know that's kinda neither here nor there, so I digress. Just needed to get that one of my chest somewhere, and this place seemed as good as anywhere I guess.
Fake edit: And before anyone gets me on this, I don't think this stuff actually needs to go completely 100% away and be completely eliminated or anything of the sort. Far from it. I just don't see any reason for it to be the default or norm, and any reason why we can't have more varied depictions of women in games that don't all revolve around that. More variety. Variety is good. Let's have more of that, so everyone can be happy. That's all I'm getting at, in the end. So please, please, no strawmen about how I actually want this stuff to be completely wiped out, because that's not what I'm saying at all, and not what I'm getting at at all (I'm speaking in terms of individual games like MGS V or FE: Fates, not all games everywhere period that ever had and ever will exist, or anything like that).
But when I read this topic, it feels like so many people think the designs are just as important as any other part of the game and it would impact their fun if they were changed. And I just... don't get that at all, and it makes me feel out of sync with other men, because it wouldn't harm my enjoyment at all either way if they weren't so sexualized. If anything, I'd enjoy the games more myself if characters like Camilla weren't so over the top and I didn't have to watch that ridiculous pandering nonsense. And knowing lots of women would be able to enjoy the games more as well would be a pretty nice bonus for something that doesn't actually harm or affect me in any way regardless, as that stuff ain't what I like about those games or care about to begin with.
Like.. if I really do want to be aroused or something, just watch porn. That's literally what it's there for. I'm not such a horny animal that not only do I need porn, but I need to be titillated by sexy and arousing designs every time I watch a tv show or movie, or play a game or whatever as well, as if that's the only way to get or maintain my attention. That's not just off-putting and makes those games less welcoming to women, but it really starts to get to me too these days because even putting that entirely aside (which it by no means should be--far from it, but putting it aside regardless for the moment) like what... do the devs really think that my attention will be lost if T&A aren't being shoved into my face? That they don't have enough faith on the game to sell on its own merits, in terms of gameplay, narrative, level design, etc, and that my interest will be lost if I don't have some fanservice design to seal the deal on top of all that?
Or is that just what the devs who make these kind of decisions think and that they're projecting onto their male audience or something? Because either way, I don't get it and it just makes me feel kinda out of sync with the rest of my sex, because I don't care and if anything would prefer for that stuff to be toned down. I just want to play the game; that's way I'm playing a game in the first place instead of just watching porn or something, y'know? If I wanted to be aroused or whatever, I'd just watch porn instead.
I'm choosing to play a game for a reason and getting aroused or seeing hot & sexy women or whatever ain't really it. If anything, that kinda stuff creeping in anyway just kinda gets in the way and completely takes me out of the experience and just reminds me I'm playing a game and stuff, so even as a guy, I struggle to understand why that's stuff there (except when it actually is there for a rather specific story or character reason that actually makes sense, but unfortunately that's not the norm). Like that is, unless.... Do other guys actually take a break to jack it when they see one of these designs or something? I wouldn't think so (god, I hope not at least), but if not, what difference does it make? Like at all? If I want to be aroused, I'll watch porn or something. But when I'm playing a game, I just want to focus on the game itself. And this stuff has nothing to do with whatever that reason is, whether it's the gameplay, the story, the characters, exploration, or whatever. I'd enjoy it just as much whether it's there or not, because that has literally nothing to do with why I'm playing the game in the first place--all that other stuff is why I'm playing the game. Else, I'd just be watching porn or something instead of playing a game. So what would be lost, even if that stuff were to be more toned down? Nothing important, and women would feel more comfortable playing the games as well, so it seem like a net-gain if anything.
I just don't get what the big deal is, and why so many men are so defensive over these designs, when they have so little to do with what makes the games so great to begin with, nothing would be lost anyway, and women would feel more comfortable to boot, which just makes me feel so out-of-sync with the rest of my sex sometimes. I, really, really don't. But either way, that's how I feel about it. I just don't see what there's to be so defensive about in the first place or how the games would suddenly be inferior or what would really be lost at all if this stuff were to be toned down and tweaked, and only see gains if anything, so well.. yeah. That's where I'm at on all this these days. I just feel really out of place for thinking that way sometimes as a man, because it seems like so many other men are just happy to eat that stuff up and happy to be told that they apparently do need that stuff to be able to enjoy something even when they themselves know that's not true and would say as much if really pressed on it (at least, I'd like to think so anyway), but that's how I feel regardless, if that makes sense at all. Apologies if it doesn't.
And thinking about it, as a bit of an aside one last thing that's kinda weird is that a common refrain in threads regarding Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is "so what if the designs of Rex and Pyra are stupid? You going to let that stop you from playing the game? There's so much else to the game than just that! You really going to give it all up just because of that?" Even ignoring the other problems with that argument a moment, doesn't that knife cut both ways? Like, if that's indeed the case, then wouldn't people be able to play the game just as well if Pyra's design wasn't so stupid, that you'd be able to play the game just as well? That there's no real point in her being designed like that, and the game wold end up being just as good as it likely will end up being if she wasn't (particularly when X had already fixed this problem with you being able to choose a cosmetic armor set and 2 is a complete regression from that, creating a completely unnecessary and previously-completely-fixed problem, but I digress)? If not, what's the difference? Why does that knife only cut one way? Because that just seems like it's admitting that the designs don't matter and the game would be just as good if it wasn't like that in the first place, since there's apparently "so much else to enjoy." Or is that not the case after all? I know that's a complete aside, but it still seems somewhat relevant to the topic, and it always bugs me when it comes up, since it seems so self-defeating to me. But I know that's kinda neither here nor there, so I digress. Just needed to get that one of my chest somewhere, and this place seemed as good as anywhere I guess.
Fake edit: And before anyone gets me on this, I don't think this stuff actually needs to go completely 100% away and be completely eliminated or anything of the sort. Far from it. I just don't see any reason for it to be the default or norm, and any reason why we can't have more varied depictions of women in games that don't all revolve around that. More variety. Variety is good. Let's have more of that, so everyone can be happy. That's all I'm getting at, in the end. So please, please, no strawmen about how I actually want this stuff to be completely wiped out, because that's not what I'm saying at all, and not what I'm getting at at all (I'm speaking in terms of individual games like MGS V or FE: Fates, not all games everywhere period that ever had and ever will exist, or anything like that).
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Are you trying to be funny? Because it's quite emphatically not working.
Women don't need to be forced to play games from a limited selection to encounter this shit, I assure you.
In some cases it's also a cultural thing I think.Surely, that's a rhetorical question. It's not off-putting to you, it's off-putting to Encephalon (and many other people).
Just because it's not as bad as some other videogame kind of shows how bad female character design is overall, that there are so many examples.
If fanservice is going to be so pervasive and unavoidable in videogames, at least give the options to not have to deal with it.
The Japanese watch some American movies and notice caps and Japanese anime to get inspiration for their game and see a lot of cleavage. Then they head to GamesCom or watch Fasion shows or whatever and European girls wear short pants.
I seriously had to do a double take when those started appearing on the streets around 2013/2014. I mean, these fashion trends seem to mainly originate from female designers and fashion icons and celebrities.
Combine those 3 trends (cleavage in Japanese manga/anime + American hats + European short pants) and you end up with designs like that.
I don't think this is entirely a case of: "Let's create the most sexualized female character we can think of" in all these cases but more a combination of things.
Just like when Dub step had a short time in the limelight and every game started using some sort of dubstep for their trailer music. Game designers and artists usually follow trends but a game can take up to 3 years(or a decade) to create.
So something like Final Fantasy XV that probably started going in production in this form around 2014 ends up looking like that.
I stand by what I said. If I was required to play as something I didn't want to play as I would just play something else.
Cindy was designed by an italian dude (Roberto Ferrari). He also designed Aranea.
This is a viable option because finding a game without a design like the one posted above is very easy - you can pick blindly, actually. Heck, that sexualized dude is fanart, lol.
What percentage of games containing required male characters that you didn't like would it have to reach before you found it annoying rather than a minor inconvenience?
Is this topic mainly about JRPGs? Because the genre sucks to me regardless lol. I've lived as a foreigner in Tokyo for over 5 years and that country, especially in the larger cities, is very open with sex and not much is taboo. The country is very desensitized on the topic of sex. A lot of these lack of dressed women are viewed as beautiful and not sexual in nature. Its definatly a cultural thing, at least concerning the JRPG genre.
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Just out of curiosity, where are all you getting these numbers like 70% and 90%. As someone who thoroughly likes fanservice in gaming, I find it to be incredibly rare nowadays. Most Western AAA titles and a vast majority of indie games have none at all. Granted, Japan is still carrying the torch, and Japan's output has been fantastic this year, but most games being released are not from Japan anymore.
Also, to all the people saying that they don't want to get rid of fanservice...what do you want then? By no means is it the norm or common anymore, and you'll only find it in a small selection of games, but reading these comments makes it sound like every single game is chock full of it and that it has to be drastically reduced.
Also, to all the people saying that they don't want to get rid of fanservice...what do you want then? By no means is it the norm or common anymore, and you'll only find it in a small selection of games, but reading these comments makes it sound like every single game is chock full of it and that it has to be drastically reduced.
I think the anti-man archetype we see in media is kind of a problem in it's own way. Women can still be friends with men and flirt with men while still being strong and independent. Creating a strong female character doesn't have to come at the expense of men basically. Just like a strong male character shouldn't come at the expense of females.
That said I will admit the responses are funny.
Not saying that's what this image is it just reminds me of that trope.
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Where do you see anything anti-man? There's no anti-man media, just anti creeps/harassers.
Like that quote explicity says "Trying to avoid guys like you." towards a guy that just at start is already trying to flirt and won't stop doing it (in a creepy way)
Wat. Women dress extremely conservatively here in Tokyo, with the admitted exception of short shorts/skirts. Cleavage is a big no here (it's even a dress code rule at work), and most women don't even wear clothes that bare their shoulders. You would think Tokyo would be a city-wide tit expo going by Japanese games, but it's actually the opposite. And nothing is taboo? Really? How about PDA? How about gay couples? Breastfeeding? I'm from Mexico and I'd say Mexico is exponentially more open with sex than Japan.
I see some misconceptions about Fire Emblem here, Awakening and Fates didn't sell well only because of fanservice, it sold well because of QoL changes to make the game more accessible. If anything Awakening could have way less fanservice and still sold well, and Fates actually "censored" a fanservice mode in west and, despite the outburst from a certain group, it still sold well.
Xenoblade is a stranger case. Because I am pretty sure it would sell much better if it didn't have all that fanservice.
Xenoblade is a stranger case. Because I am pretty sure it would sell much better if it didn't have all that fanservice.
Haha yep, that is golden. I firmly believe that the games (film too ofc) I played as a kid/teen have had a big part in my views and attitudes even today.Another similar character by Tim Schafer
Dialog with Guybrush:
http://monkeyisland.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Kate_Capsize
What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this? Trying to avoid guys like you.
Come here often? Once TOO often, obviously.
I can hold my breath for ten minutes. You'll have to wait longer than that to pick ME up.
You know, they call me the Bone Master. I'm surprised anyone calls you at all.
You know, I could really fall for a girl like you. Hopefully off a cliff.
If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? Just the part with the knuckles.
What's your sign? No trespassing.
How'd you like to come up and see my etchings? How'd you like a nice Fruit Punch?
Wanna feel my muscles? Call me when you find one.
Has anyone ever told you you have beautiful eyes? Has anyone ever swallowed that line?
Wanna see my scar? I've seen lobotomies, thanks.
Let's get out of here and go someplace we can talk. Preferably long distance.
Aren't you a famous model? Aren't you a famous jerk?
Wanna help me search for buried treasure? How would you like to BE buried treasure?
You look like a pretty classy babe, you must be a stewardess. I guess I was wrong when I thought you couldn't possibly be as dumb as you look.
You'd be in good hands with me, baby. You can go be in your OWN hands, creep.
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I agree to what you have said. To go a bit further people need to really understand the Japanese culture. Having lived in Tokyo for a few years I was able go experience this. The younger generation Japanese people are exposed to sex appeal to the point of being desensitized. These female characters are not being added to video games to glorify sexism but how a lot of the Japanese perceive beauty. This is a big cultural issue and not strictly a gaming one.
This is a derail from the question, which is "how would it make you feel". You just don't have the guts to answer honestly, because fuck if you're going to try to empathize for one second.
(it's also a ridiculous mirepresentation of the hypothetical, which is "imagine that playing a videogame forced you to", not "imagine if a videogame magically forced you to play it".).
He'd be totes okay with it (fully knowing it'll never happen) :P
His reluctance to answer or even imagine the scenario already speak loud and clear about how it would really make him feel.
And back to square one again. That's it, I'm out. Sorry guys.
Conservative maybe in the winter months because it's cold. Lol. I've seen a lot of unique things in Shibuya and Roppongi. I mean look at the whole love hotel district in Shibuya or random sexy cartoon photos on store walls. In akihabara you can go to Bic Camera electronic store and go to the DVD section and see tons of hentai flaunted not even covered up. Those are just a few examples
Edit: I don't think I mentioned cleavage in my other post. But you are correct on that topic.
You don't have to play as said character for it to be wrong or demeaning. I don't see your point.
Sorry to reduce your thoughtful post to just this. People also criticize generic and dull characters. Take Aiden Pearce from Watch Dogs in example. Even the iconic cap doesn't help. Though there are ofcourse people who do like it. But criticizing something to be generic and dull doesn't cause the same knee-jerk reactions as criticizing something of being too sexualized or straight up sexist. Or how about those Mass Effect female Ryder comments. "Eeeew she's ugly!". Are people trying to take away my ugly characters in games? (Not that I would consider the character to be ugly)
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Not even in summer you see women showing cleavage. It's a no-go, you'd be attracting the stares of everyone by doing so (in the words of my foreigner female friends who came and made the mistake of wearing their western clothes). What you find near clubs in Roppongi =/= what it's okay with Japanese society. The opposite, actually, lol. You have a point, though - everyone turns a blind eye to porny magazines at convenience stores and similar stuff. But cleavage? PDA? gay couples? breastfeeding? Absolutely nowhere to be seen. I would actually say it's a very sexually oppressive society.
Someone should tell Japan that the west abandoned victorian puritan values a long time ago and it's okay for them to do the same.
I'm going to have to back this up. Sexualized designs stand out MORE within Japan. I find it hard to believe anyone who has actually been Japan would claim anything otherwise.
Think I'm gonna need to edit the OP with a FAQ, 'cause the sheer amount of drive-bys is getting mind-numbing.
Probably not inherently so, but I can't think of many good examples. Some forms sexualization is more tasteful than others, but it's still, for the most part, gratuitous. People bring up Chun Li, but... isn't she supposed to be a cop? And yeah her cup size and the tightness of her clothes seem to be increasing by every game...
If your comparison argument for male sexualization is to bring up hentai, you've already lost the argument.
Do you really not realize how insulting you sound?
Or gay women, for that matter. Many of them, including the OP, have posted in this thread.
Oh. Here I thought it was artistic freedom. Oops?
You've asked a similar question before and I'm quite certain you were answered...
"Excuse me but I happen to be a connoisseur on Japan. Thanks to my extensive hentai collection I am super fluent on Japanese and understand everything about their culture and politics."
You've never been forced to read a forum thread either, but here you are showing everyone how threatened you are by women talking about how they feel about sexualized characters in games.
You just took your business elsewhere right?
Welcome to most female gamers upon hitting 12.
You're not really doing a great job with that.
You say that...but I remember quite a few people who thought "no Ma'am" from Married with Children was an admirable and achievable goal.
To be frank, sexualized character designs (I guess specifically female?) are so ubiquitous by now that they are boring.
Putting aside the close adherence to the "slim but busty+huge ass" body type, the rules of a female character's costume design always seem to be:
You usually get armor that is perfectly molded for boobs, or armor that covers the boobs but not the stomach (lol), or armor that has specific cones just to accommodate the boobs (make sure the boobs stick out! you can't have players mistaking a woman for a man!). For ass and legs, you basically get tights, even if they're supposed to be pants, regardless of fabric material they always mold to the butt and mold perfectly to slim legs. Those female characters have their tailors literally stitching their pants while the fabric is on their legs, because like you cannot stick your foot through material that doesn't stretch! In Japan's case, female characters are almost always wearing short skirts, dresses, or short shorts. Pants? Women wear pants???
The costume design is so boring. The nature of making clothes that essentially shape female characters for male gaze not only clashes with female characters that are written, but after a while it's just a blur of the same 'types' of characters.
Why do women criticize sexualized character designs? One of the reasons is because sexualized character designs are just not interesting. From a visual design we know automatically which and how female characters are created for titillation. Male characters, oftentimes the designers and writers do this dumb thing where they make these characters 'stereotypical gay guys' which is a whole other problem itself. If you want me to be dumping 60 bucks on your game, I would like to see interesting characters and some more thought put into female characters' appearances above "I would totally bang this chick".
Putting aside the close adherence to the "slim but busty+huge ass" body type, the rules of a female character's costume design always seem to be:
- Emphasize the boobs
- Emphasize the ass
- Or emphasize the legs
You usually get armor that is perfectly molded for boobs, or armor that covers the boobs but not the stomach (lol), or armor that has specific cones just to accommodate the boobs (make sure the boobs stick out! you can't have players mistaking a woman for a man!). For ass and legs, you basically get tights, even if they're supposed to be pants, regardless of fabric material they always mold to the butt and mold perfectly to slim legs. Those female characters have their tailors literally stitching their pants while the fabric is on their legs, because like you cannot stick your foot through material that doesn't stretch! In Japan's case, female characters are almost always wearing short skirts, dresses, or short shorts. Pants? Women wear pants???
The costume design is so boring. The nature of making clothes that essentially shape female characters for male gaze not only clashes with female characters that are written, but after a while it's just a blur of the same 'types' of characters.
Why do women criticize sexualized character designs? One of the reasons is because sexualized character designs are just not interesting. From a visual design we know automatically which and how female characters are created for titillation. Male characters, oftentimes the designers and writers do this dumb thing where they make these characters 'stereotypical gay guys' which is a whole other problem itself. If you want me to be dumping 60 bucks on your game, I would like to see interesting characters and some more thought put into female characters' appearances above "I would totally bang this chick".
Woman here. I have been reading the discussion for a while because woman sexualisation is something that often annoys me when I play video games. Sometimes it kinda shocks me that some people see "nothing wrong" when you see how female characters are treated compared to male characters in some games, and those same people must try to find some weak excuses to justify it instead of simply admitting "I just love T&A" (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I love some hot male body myself, people like attractive people from time to time).
I mean, it's really blatant, and the "artistic vision" excuse doesn't work because sometimes artists aren't completely free to do what they want, it's about selling a product after all, so I think that most of the time, artists must design characters according to the target audience's taste.
Anyway, it's not about deleting all fanservice or stuff like that. It's about balance. It's about wanting more diverse female characters (body types, yes, but roles too).
For example, I love how diverse female characters are in Pyre.
You have Jodariel who is a demon that doesn't take shit from anyone. She's an "heavy-type" character, she's really strong and tall, which is kinda uncommon for a female character.
The Moon-Touched Girl who is energetic, weird, funny and adorable.
Pamitha could be described as sexualized, but it corresponds to her flirty personality. But even her flirty personality is kind of a façade, and at no moment in the game, she is objectified by the other characters.
And finally Bertrude. I like Bertrude a lot because she's powerful and actually funny sometimes. But also because it's very rare to have an old woman as a playable character who has an interesting role and that isn't just the "grandma's protagonist" or the "nice old lady of the town".
I would also add Celeste but she is not playable. I like her design a lot, she's beautiful and elegant.
And each character is endearing and has a cool backstory, that's one of the reasons why the game is great.
I would like to see more diversity like that in video games. It's good to see that Western developers seem to pay attention to that but it's a shame to see it's not always the case for most Japanese developers (except Soulsborne, because Soulsborne is great).
(I hope my post makes sense, in fact there are so many things I would like to say but other people already explained them better than I can)
(Also yay, first post! Hello, everyone!)
I mean, it's really blatant, and the "artistic vision" excuse doesn't work because sometimes artists aren't completely free to do what they want, it's about selling a product after all, so I think that most of the time, artists must design characters according to the target audience's taste.
Anyway, it's not about deleting all fanservice or stuff like that. It's about balance. It's about wanting more diverse female characters (body types, yes, but roles too).
For example, I love how diverse female characters are in Pyre.
You have Jodariel who is a demon that doesn't take shit from anyone. She's an "heavy-type" character, she's really strong and tall, which is kinda uncommon for a female character.
The Moon-Touched Girl who is energetic, weird, funny and adorable.
Pamitha could be described as sexualized, but it corresponds to her flirty personality. But even her flirty personality is kind of a façade, and at no moment in the game, she is objectified by the other characters.
And finally Bertrude. I like Bertrude a lot because she's powerful and actually funny sometimes. But also because it's very rare to have an old woman as a playable character who has an interesting role and that isn't just the "grandma's protagonist" or the "nice old lady of the town".
I would also add Celeste but she is not playable. I like her design a lot, she's beautiful and elegant.
And each character is endearing and has a cool backstory, that's one of the reasons why the game is great.
I would like to see more diversity like that in video games. It's good to see that Western developers seem to pay attention to that but it's a shame to see it's not always the case for most Japanese developers (except Soulsborne, because Soulsborne is great).
(I hope my post makes sense, in fact there are so many things I would like to say but other people already explained them better than I can)
(Also yay, first post! Hello, everyone!)
Always surprises me* how many blokes - especially in these circles - are completely oblivious to what women find attractive.
*doesn't surprise me at all
Also, redesign based on "fan feedback"
This is pretty funny. Also good evidence to counter the folks saying guys don't care about sexualised depictions of men in games.
Haha, yea it feels bad, but I'd definitely rather play as the dude above.
Yeah, I really hope I didn't make anyone feel excluded by that, and if I did I'm sorry. I'm used to a common reply being "gay women like it too!" which is usually based on nothing, but I was trying to head it off. I'd rather have to deal with the point later than gloss over gay women's voices, though, so I should've phrased it better.
Just a note, Capcom's intention with that Ryu costume was to have a battle damaged Ryu, after the Hot Ryu thing took off they admitted to being completely blindsided by the fan reaction to him. Basically the fanbase objectified Ryu there, not Capcom.Not a rarity, costumes like this and similar ilk have existed for about 10 years now. The only real difference was the fact he had a beard, Ryu running around with a top on in pants is nothing new for a character in either SF or most fighting games. And Capcom (like woman) actively used that sex appeal.
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So yea, "man with top off and big muscles", pretty much par for the course in most fighting games. Something obviously jives here, but it wasn't by rarity of sexualized men. Most likely a particularly well done one.
Some will even say "But there are people who find Zangief sexy!". I heard the same argument for Junkrat and Roadhog from Overwatch. Yes, true, some people are attracted to them. But the real question is: was it the devs' intent? As said earlier, it's like for Hot Ryu. Hot Ryu wasn't designed to be sexualized, it was a "happy accident" if people reacted that way.
I always find this argument puzzling.
All women find the same thing attractive? That's certainly not true for men.
User Warned For: Repeated arguing out-of-context. This thread is about the obvious disparity in how male and female characters are portrayed/sexualized in games. Not the very idea that the human form is attractive.
Stating that practically every human-being finds the human-form intrinsically pleasing is not insulting at all, it's generally something to be celebrated. Which is what SFV does. Wonderfully.
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