Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Twig · Aug 2, 2018

Laiza said:
My point is ultimately that it is a futile crusade. No matter how hard you push back at it, the tide of culture is utterly unstoppable. You can keep trying to push against it all you want to, but quite frankly, it's kind of irrelevant and more likely to get you banned for thread derailment than actually produce any level of real, noticeable change.

And yes, there are multiple colloquial definitions of what makes something "anime", but context is key - usually you can figure out pretty damn quick what someone means by just looking at it in-context. ESPECIALLY when it's used in a thread like this.

Also, the mere fact that people who watch tons of anime are using the word in that way suggests it is very much NOT considered this "alien, unknowable, bad thing", but rather that they are using it as a shorthand for something that is easily understood by people who have seen otaku-pandering anime... because they've watched this shit. They know it. They understand it very well.

I mean, gods, is there really any word you would use instead to describe the specific kind of fanservicey bullshit that is Xenoblade Chronicles 2? Because I literally can't think of any word that encapsulates the specific kind of affliction it suffers other than that it is extremely "anime". I mean, it's just too perfect. It's succinct, it's easily understood in context, basically everyone knows what you mean when you say it, I mean... it's hard to argue against it, really.

Keep trying if you want to, I guess, but don't say I didn't warn you.

I'm 31 years old and have been through this cycle many times. I'm well versed in what people think and why they think it. Doesn't mean I shouldn't call out bullshit when it happens.

Everything's futile when you don't try.

Here let me argue against your XC2 bit: It's got sexist character designs.

How do you criticize every elf in Warcraft wearing boobplate with a bare midriff? Is that anime? What about Game of Thrones when the women are wearing revealing clothing? Is that anime? What about Leisure Suit Larry? Anime?

So now someone's gonna say, well, none of those look like anime, it's a different art style. Ah. But okay then why don't we generalize those categories/genres/mediums as pejoratives? Ahhh but they do for X. Yeah well that's dumb, too.

And, yes, of course I can figure things out from context. But that just further proves my point. Words lose meaning when you can throw 'em around at everything. So just say what you actually mean instead of defaulting to, well...

Machachan said:
That's arguing with windmills, though - nobody said this. I really feel like I'm in the usual dudebro ~but why do you hate videogames~ thread :/
Folks, it is possible to admit that (genre/medium you love) has issues. It isn't an attack on you or your self worth, nor on good parts of what's in (medium/genre you love).

Uh. Did you read my post? I never said you can't criticize anime. In fact, I have supported criticizing anime many times in this very thread. I criticize it almost literally every day of my life, at this point, more often than not in the same way this thread always does. So please don't throw around accusations like that. I'm having to fight my urge to scream at you right now. Thanks.

Anyway, people act like this, even if they don't say it outright. By attacking things they don't like - calling it anime - they're perpetuating this idea that anime is just this thing, this exotic artifact that can only be good for delivering shitty flawed products. It comes from a lack of knowledge, an assumption of the generic. Maybe you don't use it without knowing, maybe people here don't, but it happens, and you can't deny it. And if people who actually know their shit perpetuate it, it continues and builds upon itself. A whirlwind of willful ignorance.

So, yeah. It has absolutely nothing to do with people disliking anime. It has absolutely everything to do with people generalizing an entire medium by using it as a fucking insult. It's not rocket science, and it's goddamn frustrating that people just accept it like it should be the norm, but only for anime apparently? Nah. Nah. This is stupid. There's no defending it.

And hey even ignoring all that? It's lazy criticism. Say what you mean.

...

Man, that post I just wrote was so British television.

Deleted member 41271 · Aug 2, 2018

Twig said:
I never said you can't criticize anime

Could have sworn this was yours:

I'm attacking the idea that anime is universally this alien, unknowable, bad thing.

Weird that nobody actually does this. How odd.

How do you criticize every elf in Warcraft wearing boobplate with a bare midriff? Is that anime? What about Game of Thrones when the women are wearing revealing clothing? Is that anime? What about Leisure Suit Larry? Anime?

And this argument is just word salad, I'm sorry. Anime having X tropes (including bare midriffs) and WoW having Y tropes (including bare midriffs) doesn't mean they're the same. Not quite. They're actually bad in different ways. That's possible. Anime having terrible tropes doesn't mean no other genre has terrible tropes, nor that all terrible tropes must be represented in anime. There's actully a term among devs for art like that: Porn Elves. Yes, even if they're not actually elves, lol. So yes, there actually IS a pejorative on those.

I'm sure this is horribly generalizing and oppressive to porn elves, too, and there'll be some guy to mansplain me to not be so xenophobic towards them, because it's mean or somesuch. Lol at the thread title.

Bricks · Aug 2, 2018

Machachan said:
Pretty fun too, when it's not busy being dumb as bricks. =

:(

Snormy · Aug 2, 2018

Bricks said:
:(

I laughed and am amazed you manage that pull that out of all the lengthy posts here.

Twig · Aug 2, 2018

Machachan said:
Could have sworn this was yours:

Weird that nobody actually does this. How odd.

Honestly I find it hard to respond to the rest of your post when you think that statement is at all saying you can't criticize anime.

Clearly there's a huge disconnect happening here. So I'll just bail.

I will say though that the phrase "porn elf" is actually descriptive and meaningful.

RalchAC · Aug 2, 2018

People here don't talk about World of Warcraft as much as they talk about JRPGs because they overall have a smaller (or non existent) interest in that game compared to the genres.

I don't think it's rocket science, really. I personally haven't played World of Warcraft in 7 years so I don't know how much progress has been made since then and I don't know much about its current state.

Even then, there was a conversation a few pages ago about this Scarlet Crusade leader that was added to Heroes of the Storm, and its design was critizised because someone that (probably) plays that game brought it up.

If some regular were into World of Warcraft you'd see people talk about it more often, just like how there is a regular that plays Fire Emblem Heroes and regularly brings the seasonal Gacha units or other stuff that they find problematic.

Redcrayon · Aug 2, 2018

RalchAC said:
People here don't talk about World of Warcraft as much as they talk about JRPGs because they overall have a smaller (or non existent) interest in that game compared to the genres.

I don't think it's rocket science, really. I personally haven't played World of Warcraft in 7 years so I don't know how much progress has been made since then and I don't know much about its current state.

Even then, there was a conversation a few pages ago about this Scarlet Crusade leader that was added to Heroes of the Storm, and its design was critizised because someone that (probably) plays that game brought it up.

If some regular were into World of Warcraft you'd see people talk about it more often, just like how there is a regular that plays Fire Emblem Heroes and regularly brings the seasonal Gacha units or other stuff that they find problematic.

This is spot on. I post a lot of images here, but outside of odd stuff that crosses my path as I browse Era it's generally from the stuff I actually play, like FEH, Valkyria Chronicles, Ys, JRPGs in general.

PhazonBlonde · Aug 2, 2018

Xaszatm said:
I see .Also I like how you didn't even question the fact that there was a yaoi fanfiction chain on this thread :P

Dary · Aug 2, 2018

Twig said:
How do you criticize every elf in Warcraft wearing boobplate with a bare midriff? Is that anime? What about Game of Thrones when the women are wearing revealing clothing? Is that anime?

If there was a succinct five-letter term for western fantasy the way there is for Japanese animation, you can bet it'd be used as a pejorative for those. "The Witcher 3 is so Western High Fantasy" doesn't really roll off the tongue.

The thing with anime is that so many of the problematic elements - especially in regards to female character design - aren't hindered by genre. They're near-universal. The fucking thigh gaps, for example. And how often is that Victorian maid fetish going to show up in places where it makes no narrative sense?

Xaszatm · Aug 2, 2018

Dary said:
If there was a succinct five-letter term for western fantasy the way there is for Japanese animation, you can bet it'd be used as a pejorative for those. "The Witcher 3 is so Western High Fantasy" doesn't really roll off the tongue.

The thing with anime is that so many of the problematic elements - especially in regards to female character design - aren't hindered by genre. They're near-universal. The fucking thigh gaps, for example. And how often is that Victorian maid fetish going to show up in places where it makes no narrative sense?

To be fair, pulp fiction, penny dreadfuls, sensational magazines, there isn't exactly a shortage of terms we have for such lowbrow stuff for the west. It's just that it's not as used anymore because the most common examples aren't that common anymore.

EDIT: Shlock and Troma are also such terms that are usually more western oriented that are still somewhat used. B-Movie too. Like, there actually a lot of terms used.

...Also, I'm so so sorry of bringing this next part up....

PhazonBlonde said:

Well, here's a blast from the past....

Dary said:
A shirtless Gladio bends over to wash the the Regalia's windscreen. Ignis, slouched in the driver's seat, drifts his gaze up his companion's body, the camera following suit.
"I think," he says, eyes absorbed in Gladio's rhythmic motions, "I've just come up with a new recipe."
Gladio grins. "Want me to taste test for ya?"

*men everywhere feel immensely uncomfortable*

Xaszatm said:
...let's see if someone who has no idea how attraction works can do this...

Gladio goes to wipe the sweat off his brow, the soapy, wet cloth dropping glistening droplets of water of his heaving, sweaty chest. Already wet with perspiration, the camera follows a single stream of water-sweat drip down towards the center of his chest, pass each of his hard, firm abs, then go down into his low cut pants. The camera cuts back up to Gladio's chest, which is heaving heavily and getting closer. Suddenly, he is right over the camera, smiling a smile that will melt that hearts of a thousand glaciers, eyes glistening with silent mischef, his tongue licking across his perfect teeth. "So," he says, getting ever closer, "how about that taste test?"

...yeah, sorry, I have no idea what I'm writing.

PhazonBlonde · Aug 2, 2018

Xaszatm said:
To be fair, pulp fiction, penny dreadfuls, sensational magazines, there isn't exactly a shortage of terms we have for such lowbrow stuff for the west. It's just that it's not as used anymore because the most common examples aren't that common anymore.

EDIT: Shlock and Troma are also such terms that are usually more western oriented that are still somewhat used. B-Movie too. Like, there actually a lot of terms used.

...Also, I'm so so sorry of bringing this next part up....

Well, here's a blast from the past....

For an ace you write some of the sexiest fanfic ever.... goddamn. I'll be in my bunk

Drencrom · Aug 2, 2018

Xaszatm said:
That's true. If it comes from the West it's usually from games inspired from Japan. Or we get a bunch of idiots who say that Kratos or Marcus Fenix is an example of a hot guy for the ladies which is laughable even for an asexual like me.

PhazonBlonde said:
Kratos is laughable even for boy crazy girls like me. God he's fucking ugly as sin.

Who has ever said that Kratos is supposed and designed to be attractive? He's designed to be a powerful and troubled looking God figure. The only ones who think that Kratos is sexy/attractive to women in general has to be 12yo boys.

PhazonBlonde · Aug 2, 2018

Drencrom said:
Who has ever said that Kratos is supposed and designed to be attractive? He's designed to be a powerful and troubled looking God figure. The only ones who think that Kratos is sexy/attractive to women in general has to be 12yo boys.

A lot of 12 y/o boys then apparently have Gaf and now Era accounts because "b-but Kratos!" pops up frequently in threads discussing sexualized women in games

Deleted member 23212 · Aug 2, 2018

esserius said:
Are people making arguments that sexism in video games is proportional to patriarchal family systems? Or are they comparing them to other video games and industry standards? Because I'm fairly convinced it's the latter.

Yes, some games are more sexist than others, but I don't think that those who play those games can automatically be considered sexists, as I think it makes more sense to determine whether someone is sexist or not based on how they treat women, if they can play those games but recognize their issues and realize that they are not indicative of actual women.

Twig · Aug 2, 2018

RalchAC said:
People here don't talk about World of Warcraft as much as they talk about JRPGs because they overall have a smaller (or non existent) interest in that game compared to the genres.

I don't think it's rocket science, really. I personally haven't played World of Warcraft in 7 years so I don't know how much progress has been made since then and I don't know much about its current state.

Even then, there was a conversation a few pages ago about this Scarlet Crusade leader that was added to Heroes of the Storm, and its design was critizised because someone that (probably) plays that game brought it up.

If some regular were into World of Warcraft you'd see people talk about it more often, just like how there is a regular that plays Fire Emblem Heroes and regularly brings the seasonal Gacha units or other stuff that they find problematic.

I did not bring up WoW in a what-about manner. They just...assumed I did, I think.

Dary said:
If there was a succinct five-letter term for western fantasy the way there is for Japanese animation, you can bet it'd be used as a pejorative for those. "The Witcher 3 is so Western High Fantasy" doesn't really roll off the tongue.

The thing with anime is that so many of the problematic elements - especially in regards to female character design - aren't hindered by genre. They're near-universal. The fucking thigh gaps, for example. And how often is that Victorian maid fetish going to show up in places where it makes no narrative sense?

Why not just refer to it as "weird maid fetish"? It's so much more descriptive, and doesn't rely on vague pejorative.

But hey whatever. It's fucked up but you do you.

Xaszatm · Aug 2, 2018

Twig said:
I did not bring up WoW in a what-about manner. They just...assumed I did, I think.

Why not just refer to it as "weird maid fetish"? It's so much more descriptive, and doesn't rely on vague pejorative.

But hey whatever. It's fucked up but you do you.

I mean...the word meido is specifically relating to the large trend in anime of throwing in maids at the slightest provocation with little rhyme or reason to them so we could use that because it is still very an anime focused problem (even though maids are also fetishsized in the west, they aren't to the extent where we have a specific term for it).

Drencrom · Aug 2, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
A lot of 12 y/o boys then apparently have Gaf and now Era accounts because "b-but Kratos!" pops up frequently in threads discussing sexualized women in games

Really? I would like a laugh, can you quote one of these posts?

I personally love Kratos and his design, but he's definitely not made to be a convetionally "attractive man". He's a gnarly and powerful looking god with big muscles, a luscious beard, war paint etc, his facial features are chiseled in a way to make him look weathered and intimidating. Doesn't mean that some women and men won't find his features attractive ofc.

Ferrs · Aug 2, 2018

Drencrom said:
Really? I would like a laugh, can you quote one of these posts?

I personally love Kratos and his design, but he's definitely not made to be a convetionally "attractive man". He's a gnarly and powerful looking god with big muscles, a luscious beard, war paint etc, his facial features are chiseled in a way to make him look weathered and intimidating.

Some men think shirtless dudes = sexualized , so Kratos is sexualized, same as, for example, Zangief. Pretty sure if you dig in this OT you'll find some comments about that, I have seen them.

Dary · Aug 2, 2018

Twig said:
I did not bring up WoW in a what-about manner. They just...assumed I did, I think.

Why not just refer to it as "weird maid fetish"? It's so much more descriptive, and doesn't rely on vague pejorative.

But hey whatever. It's fucked up but you do you.

Sure, when refering to it in isolation, but "anime" is being used to refer to an amalgamation of these trends. Like in this thread's favourite game, Xenoblade 2 - a game whose advertising literally played up how "anime" it was.

Morrigan · Aug 2, 2018

Drencrom said:
Who has ever said that Kratos is supposed and designed to be attractive? He's designed to be a powerful and troubled looking God figure. The only ones who think that Kratos is sexy/attractive to women in general has to be 12yo boys.

lol, "what about Kratos" is so common we literally had to include him in the mini-FAQ in the OP. xD

Bad faith and ignorant arguments are not limited to 12 year old boys, sadly.

Spyware · Aug 2, 2018

Funny that WoW came up now. My little brother just went back to it last week and has been talking to me a bit about it. Mostly stuff he dislikes, is bothered by or that makes him angry, because he knows I don't like the game and won't defend it in any way (like some of his friends if he complains to them).

Among other things he sends me pics like this one ("Unforgiving Sentinel" NPC, lvl 110 and is supposedly active in the ongoing war?)

With comments like "I think she forgot her armor at home." and "Armaments, undergarments... basically the same, right?"

Xaszatm · Aug 2, 2018

Spyware said:
Funny that WoW came up now. My little brother just went back to it last week and has been talking to me a bit about it. Mostly stuff he dislikes, is bothered by or that makes him angry, because he knows I don't like the game and won't defend it in any way (like some of his friends if he complains to them).

Among other things he sends me pics like this one ("Unforgiving Sentinel" NPC, lvl 110 and is supposedly active in the ongoing war?)

With comments like "I think she forgot her armor at home." and "Armaments, undergarments... basically the same, right?"

I think the developers forgot that they are called Night Elves, not Nightwear Elves...

Biestmann · Aug 2, 2018

I give Japanese games a lot of bad rep, but MMOs are just as bad if not worse with their lingerie armor sets.

Snormy · Aug 2, 2018

RalchAC said:
People here don't talk about World of Warcraft as much as they talk about JRPGs because they overall have a smaller (or non existent) interest in that game compared to the genres.

I don't think it's rocket science, really. I personally haven't played World of Warcraft in 7 years so I don't know how much progress has been made since then and I don't know much about its current state.

Even then, there was a conversation a few pages ago about this Scarlet Crusade leader that was added to Heroes of the Storm, and its design was critizised because someone that (probably) plays that game brought it up.

If some regular were into World of Warcraft you'd see people talk about it more often, just like how there is a regular that plays Fire Emblem Heroes and regularly brings the seasonal Gacha units or other stuff that they find problematic.

The thing is, MMOs are long term games. Once you've established that the game has some trending bad designs you sort of know already what to expect. When the next main line Final Fantasy drops Cindy on you though that is different is a new level of disappointment entirely. In the case of Fire Emblem Heroes I'd also say that the series was traditionally pretty decent in the female design department. I imagine some of us has written off some of the games' designs already so we just don't mention it until it crosses our paths again. Really I could probably show the new costumes that get added to Black Desert Online but do I really want to do that many stink post? It's not like we're lacking new games to talk about and have to rely on old games that still has new sexualized designs.

Drencrom said:
Really? I would like a laugh, can you quote one of these posts?

If you run a search through this thread for Kratos we have hits from all the way back in 2017!

Ferrs said:
Some men think shirtless dudes = sexualized

Some people just don't actually understand what sexualized and objectified means.

mael · Aug 2, 2018

Spyware said:
Funny that WoW came up now. My little brother just went back to it last week and has been talking to me a bit about it. Mostly stuff he dislikes, is bothered by or that makes him angry, because he knows I don't like the game and won't defend it in any way (like some of his friends if he complains to them).

Among other things he sends me pics like this one ("Unforgiving Sentinel" NPC, lvl 110 and is supposedly active in the ongoing war?)

With comments like "I think she forgot her armor at home." and "Armaments, undergarments... basically the same, right?"

Wow always look like mush on my screen when I'm playing like I can't make out anything more than general shapes of the characters except during cutscenes.
I guess that's why I was never bothered by any sexualisation there, I could literally not see it.
I just realize that it's what happened with Xenoblade 1 as well.
Could have the character in the most trashy outfit, the game was so blurry and the camera so far I can't make out what the characters are outside of silhouette.
Xeno2 broke that with how fucking overt it was with everything.

Komii · Aug 2, 2018

Snormy said:
When the next main line Final Fantasy drops Cindy on you though that is different is a new level of disappointment entirely.

Final fantasy has always had skimpy clothes, cindy's felt worse because of how they did it tbh

Like, alexandria's female knights in ff9 had leotard armor and beatrix had cleavage armor, ffx npcs had awful clothing with even some g strings over g strings, ffXII had the vieras, FF13 had a cop in a miniskirt, also that woman in snow's party, 14 is an mmo, tho now you can equip bunny suits to male characters, japanese fans didn't like that and want a way to switch it off

Honestly, the thing cindy did worse than the reet is being advertised as a selling point... thinking about it now I was more dissappointed the trend wasn't broken

PhazonBlonde · Aug 2, 2018

Mariip said:
Final fantasy has always had skimpy clothes, cindy's felt worse because of how they did it tbh

Like, alexandria's female knights in ff9 had leotard armor and beatrix had cleavage armor, ffx npcs had awful clothing with even some g strings over g strings, ffXII had the vieras, FF13 had a cop in a miniskirt, also that woman in snow's party, 14 is an mmo, tho now you can equip bunny suits to male characters, japanese fans didn't like that and want a way to switch it off

Honestly, the thing cindy did worse than the reet is being advertised as a selling point... thinking about it now I was more dissappointed the trend wasn't broken

Quote for truth. Cindy gets way too much shit when FFXII had THIS shit

mael · Aug 2, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
Quote for truth. Cindy gets way too much shit when FFXII had THIS shit

In what brothel do you encounter this character?
I spend so much time moving the camera around in that game that the motion blur remove all features and I miss gems like that.

Joeku · Aug 2, 2018

Wearing the G-string on the outside must be an extremely specific fetish, because otherwise I have no idea how anyone would decide that was not the stupidest-looking thing ever.

Biestmann · Aug 2, 2018

Personally, I found the lack of importance of the female cast of FF15 to be a bigger problem than Cindy's design. There is hardly any women in the game to begin with, your party is exclusively male, and then the two women that really do play a part in the story are relegated to sexy mechanic and dead girlfriend. The presence of women in that world is of no consequence.

Eintopf · Aug 2, 2018

Biestmann said:
Personally, I found the lack of importance of the female cast of FF15 to be a bigger problem than Cindy's design. There is hardly any women in the game to begin with, your party is exclusively male, and then the two women that really do play a part in the story are relegated to sexy mechanic and dead girlfriend. The presence of women in that world is of no consequence.

Don't forget the sexy warrior trope!

Deleted member 18021 · Aug 2, 2018

Final Fantasy's long history of leotards still gets me, lol.

Even when they get rid of them and replace them with Amano's designs, it's usually not much better.
I still have no idea what the hell Rosa's supposed to be wearing.

Xaszatm · Aug 2, 2018

Eintopf said:
Don't forget the sexy warrior trope!

Add her with Samus on the "I don't care if you try to explain it, heels in combat are dumb" category.

mael said:
In what brothel do you encounter this character?
I spend so much time moving the camera around in that game that the motion blur remove all features and I miss gems like that.

I think they're Al-Cid's harem following. Or in Rabanastre. One of the two.

mael · Aug 2, 2018

MochaKoffee said:
Final Fantasy's long history of leotards still gets me, lol.

Even when they get rid of them and replace them with Amano's designs, it's usually not much better.
I still have no idea what the hell Rosa's supposed to be wearing.

I was going to say that older FFs get a better rep because of the more primitive hardware but
on DS

Still stupid

And this one I guess you can imagine that she's wearing someting better

Xaszatm said:
Add her with Samus on the "I don't care if you try to explain it, heels in combat are dumb" category.

Well if she fights on horseback, it actually would make sense....Otherwise it's just stupid design.
You'll notice how male characters never have high heels even on horseback
Random example in Fire Emblem

Xaszatm said:
I think they're Al-Cid's harem following. Or in Rabanastre. One of the two.

As part of the harem it would make sense but the other...lol

Xaszatm · Aug 2, 2018

MochaKoffee said:
Final Fantasy's long history of leotards still gets me, lol.

Even when they get rid of them and replace them with Amano's designs, it's usually not much better.
I still have no idea what the hell Rosa's supposed to be wearing.

FFVI has this problem as well as Terra and Celes inexplicably wear leotards despite the former being a mind-controled slave and the later being the general of an army! One that DOESN'T wear skimpy armorwear!

Komii · Aug 2, 2018

mael said:
In what brothel do you encounter this character?
I spend so much time moving the camera around in that game that the motion blur remove all features and I miss gems like that.

Thats a regular city npc, you can find her in the bar, in the church, walking down city center streets...

mael · Aug 2, 2018

Xaszatm said:
FFVI has this problem as well as Terra and Celes inexplicably wear leotards despite the former being a mind-controled slave and the later being the general of an army! One that DOESN'T wear skimpy armorwear!

I was looking at spritesheets to show that with the size of the sprites it didn't really make a difference but then I found this

final_fantasy_6_lp___aurora_base_spritesheet_by_video_boy_mal-d65ce6r.png

while the original is

...yeah

Mariip said:
Thats a regular city npc, you can find her in the bar, in the church, walking down city center streets...

In a church...I know they tried to explain the outfits with the place being in the middle of desert but it's like they never actually saw how people in real life dress in a desert.

esserius · Aug 2, 2018

Oheao said:
Yes, some games are more sexist than others, but I don't think that those who play those games can automatically be considered sexists, as I think it makes more sense to determine whether someone is sexist or not based on how they treat women, if they can play those games but recognize their issues and realize that they are not indicative of actual women.

Regardless of whether or not you're sexist, you are promoting sexism by playing games that perpetuate its systemic embeddedness in our culture.

And, shocker, most of us have done that and will do that in the future, because it's damn near impossible to avoid. You being flippant about this is more a reflection on your own insecurity than it is about sexism in media.

Twig said:
I'm 31 years old and have been through this cycle many times. I'm well versed in what people think and why they think it. Doesn't mean I shouldn't call out bullshit when it happens.

Everything's futile when you don't try.

Here let me argue against your XC2 bit: It's got sexist character designs.

How do you criticize every elf in Warcraft wearing boobplate with a bare midriff? Is that anime? What about Game of Thrones when the women are wearing revealing clothing? Is that anime? What about Leisure Suit Larry? Anime?

So now someone's gonna say, well, none of those look like anime, it's a different art style. Ah. But okay then why don't we generalize those categories/genres/mediums as pejoratives? Ahhh but they do for X. Yeah well that's dumb, too.

And, yes, of course I can figure things out from context. But that just further proves my point. Words lose meaning when you can throw 'em around at everything. So just say what you actually mean instead of defaulting to, well...

Uh. Did you read my post? I never said you can't criticize anime. In fact, I have supported criticizing anime many times in this very thread. I criticize it almost literally every day of my life, at this point, more often than not in the same way this thread always does. So please don't throw around accusations like that. I'm having to fight my urge to scream at you right now. Thanks.

Anyway, people act like this, even if they don't say it outright. By attacking things they don't like - calling it anime - they're perpetuating this idea that anime is just this thing, this exotic artifact that can only be good for delivering shitty flawed products. It comes from a lack of knowledge, an assumption of the generic. Maybe you don't use it without knowing, maybe people here don't, but it happens, and you can't deny it. And if people who actually know their shit perpetuate it, it continues and builds upon itself. A whirlwind of willful ignorance.

So, yeah. It has absolutely nothing to do with people disliking anime. It has absolutely everything to do with people generalizing an entire medium by using it as a fucking insult. It's not rocket science, and it's goddamn frustrating that people just accept it like it should be the norm, but only for anime apparently? Nah. Nah. This is stupid. There's no defending it.

And hey even ignoring all that? It's lazy criticism. Say what you mean.

...

Man, that post I just wrote was so British television.

Language evolves, as Laiza said. Stop tilting at windmills and whining about semantics. You, and everyone else here, understands the context in which the term is used, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

Komii · Aug 2, 2018

mael said:
I was looking at spritesheets to show that with the size of the sprites it didn't really make a difference but then I found this

while the original is

...yeah

In a church...I know they tried to explain the outfits with the place being in the middle of desert but it's like they never actually saw how people in real life dress in a desert.

FFX had similar outfits but i usually gavw it a pass because it was mostly on cities near the beach, still awful because the outfits were ugly tho

That celes spritesheet ;;

Deleted member 18021 · Aug 2, 2018

Xaszatm said:
FFVI has this problem as well as Terra and Celes inexplicably wear leotards despite the former being a mind-controled slave and the later being the general of an army! One that DOESN'T wear skimpy armorwear!

Yeah, Amano's design for Celes was 100000% better than the dumb neon green leotard thing, but Square seems more inclined to use the leotard nowadays so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I still kind of like the old PS1 CG render of her:

Dary · Aug 2, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
Quote for truth. Cindy gets way too much shit when FFXII had THIS shit

Also, whilst Googling, I found this fanart of Celes. I guess it just goes to show how much worse things could be...

Eintopf · Aug 2, 2018

Dary said:

FF6: Xenoblade 2 edition

Xaszatm · Aug 2, 2018

Dary said:
Also, whilst Googling, I found this fanart of Celes. I guess it just goes to show how much worse things could be...

OF COURSE! Don't you know hands are the most vulnerable part of the body, where all your vital organs are?!?

Deleted member 18021 · Aug 2, 2018

That's actually not terribly far off from recent-ish official art of her lol

mael · Aug 2, 2018

Mariip said:
FFX had similar outfits but i usually gavw it a pass because it was mostly on cities near the beach, still awful because the outfits were ugly tho

Well at least a population leaving by the seaside mostly living off the sea makes kind of sense to wear beach attire

traditional hawai dress through google...(and dear god some of the google responses)
But desert people?

young-berber-in-traditional-dress-in-the-sahara-desert-in-morocco-BBP84R.jpg

stock photo of north african person in traditional attire.

We can't be farther from FFXII if we tried!

Mariip said:
That celes spritesheet ;;

I'm actually sad I know this exists now because it's soooooooooooo much better!

Deleted member 23212 · Aug 2, 2018

esserius said:
Regardless of whether or not you're sexist, you are promoting sexism by playing games that perpetuate its systemic embeddedness in our culture.

And, shocker, most of us have done that and will do that in the future, because it's damn near impossible to avoid. You being flippant about this is more a reflection on your own insecurity than it is about sexism in media.

I'm not sure how it's promoting sexism, most people don't even know that I have those games. Sure, you can call me sexist if you'd like, but to be honest I am still going to fight against sexism and misogyny not because I think it'll get me social points, but because I think it's the right thing to do. Where you and I disagree is on how to deal with the situation. I think that it should be dealt with in a few ways:

Bringing up and acknowledging the inherent sexism in our economic model
Demonstrating the societal norms that maintain sexism
Showcase the sexist depictions of women in the media
Critique and denounce those who deny sexism/support sexism

Now, yes, there is an overlap with people who play games like that and those who decry "SJWs, feminists, cultural Marxists", etc., but the issue there is not that they're playing the games, but that they don't see what is wrong with the games, and on a larger scale, society itself. The fact of the matter is, you wouldn't even know if someone was playing games like that unless they brought it up.

mael · Aug 2, 2018

MochaKoffee said:
Yeah, Amano's design for Celes was 100000% better than the dumb neon green leotard thing, but Square seems more inclined to use the leotard nowadays so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I still kind of like the old PS1 CG render of her:

And now I wanna see a spritesheet corresponding to this model....
And look at that ! you can actually fight in this attire without looking like you're straight out of fight that broke out in a brothel!

Dary · Aug 2, 2018

MochaKoffee said:
That's actually not terribly far off from recent-ish official art of her lol

Well, there it is. Where's Kefka when you need to remake the world, ey?

AztecComplex · Aug 2, 2018

Biestmann said:
Personally, I found the lack of importance of the female cast of FF15 to be a bigger problem than Cindy's design. There is hardly any women in the game to begin with, your party is exclusively male, and then the two women that really do play a part in the story are relegated to sexy mechanic and dead girlfriend. The presence of women in that world is of no consequence.

Hey! Don't you forget about Gladious' little sister (it's a modern jrpg of course we need a little sister! I'll bet thatbin the JP track many an otaku moisten their underwear upon hearing "oniiiii-chan" or "imouto" over and over again which, let's face it, it's the only reason this character exists for). She was even an active party member for a while there.

She was cute of course but I wouldn't call her "sexualized". Her clothes don't even rip like in the case of goddamn Luna (it's in the trailers, not a spoiler).

esserius · Aug 2, 2018

Oheao said:
I'm not sure how it's promoting sexism, most people don't even know that I have those games. Sure, you can call me sexist if you'd like, but to be honest I am still going to fight against sexism and misogyny not because I think it'll get me social points, but because I think it's the right thing to do. Where you and I disagree is on how to deal with the situation. I think that it should be dealt with in a few ways:

Bringing up and acknowledging the inherent sexism in our economic model

Demonstrating the societal norms that maintain sexism

Showcase the sexist depictions of women in the media

Critique and denounce those who deny sexism/support sexism

Now, yes, there is an overlap with people who play games like that and those who decry "SJWs, feminists, cultural Marxists", etc., but the issue there is not that they're playing the games, but that they don't see what is wrong with the games, and on a larger scale, society itself. The fact of the matter is, you wouldn't even know if someone was playing games like that unless they brought it up.

Stop taking everything like it's a personal attack on you, and stop telling everyone else what they should be doing. Get over yourself.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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