Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

[Deleted member 32561]

Shimazaki is a known perv that was inspired by Kill la Kill.

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Then why does all her art outside of her work on Soulcalibur not look like well. That?
Why isn't Kazumi running around in a "traditional Japanese" string bikini in her default? Why isn't Bayonetta constantly naked when she's not doing her attacks? Why don't the Garo eyecatches have the girls with boobs the size of their head?
It just doesn't match up. Besides, one can be inspired by Kill la Kill in other ways - it's not ALL Satsuki and Ryuko running around with their tits hanging out, there are other designs as well.
Edit: NOT saying she's not a "known perv" by the way, it just doesn't seem to go into her official art for the most part.

This one's nice too:

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I. Love. This. Outfit. People keep bringing up her main SC2 alt but seem to sleep on this one...
I hope it's in 6.

 

[Dragmire]

I. Love. This. Outfit. People keep bringing up her main SC2 alt but seem to sleep on this one...
I hope it's in 6.

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Yeah, they could bring both to SC 6, but it might be DLC. haha

I think some of these can be brought as alts too (maybe with some improvements):

I would love to see Ivy fight in that dress.^

 

[esserius]

It's the same problem that dogs anime: the people involved aren't looking outside of their bubble for inspiration, only to the things that immediately interest them - and, with each generation, things move further and further away from the real world. It's why Nintendo like to employ people with hobbies outside of gaming, instead of those who know nothing but gaming.

It's also a mindset I've encountered amongst numerous aspiring creatives. They're inspired by games, comics, anime et al, but they never think to look beneath the surface at what inspired them, and instead choose simply to imitate at the shallowest of levels.

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It's simple: overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.

 

[Grain Silo]

PD: Evangelion to me is a case to want to have the cake and eat it. The "deconstrution" talk to me it's just excuses to no admit what it already is.

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A lot of anime seems to have this problem. You can deconstruct whatever tropes you want in the narrative, but at the end of the day your characters are still attractive young women in skin-tight suits.

As an example to approach this topic of deconstruction fully, I believe the writer/mangaka would have to perform a full bait-and-switch. Introduce characters that are typically nubile and attractive, then maybe age them over time. You start to see bags forming under their eyes, waistlines expand from a poor diet, maybe even see (gasp) a pimple or two on their faces.

That's the only way I can think of right now where they'd prepare a cake without eating it.

 

[esserius]

Lately I've wondered if there will ever be a mediating factor (like "oscar bait" with movies) that will have enough influence to actually move development towards critical analysis. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Deleted member 4037]

Lately I've wondered if there will ever be a mediating factor (like "oscar bait" with movies) that will have enough influence to actually move development towards critical analysis. But I'm not holding my breath.

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like goty or metacritic? I think there is a forum for critical analysis on games, just not in the places you would like to be mainstream

 

[esserius]

like goty or metacritic? I think there is a forum for critical analysis on games, just not in the places you would like to be mainstream

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Yeah these aren't about critical analysis. They're just part of the machine (in metacritic's case, quite literally).

I'm not saying there isn't critical analysis. But there's very few for whom developers look to take advice. Critical analysis is largely disconnected from video games, whereas criticism, especially since the 1940s, has continued to develop side-by-side with movie makers, each feeding off the new material gained from the other. A symbiotic relationship like that doesn't exist in video games.

See:

 

[Deleted member 32561]

Lately I've wondered if there will ever be a mediating factor (like "oscar bait" with movies) that will have enough influence to actually move development towards critical analysis. But I'm not holding my breath.

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Thing is that, often enough, "Oscar bait" isn't all that deep and is blatantly meant to appeal to the shallow interests of the Oscars- basically anything to do with Hollywood or the biz in general, Anglosphere-centric history, or that seems to have to do with societal inequalities, but doesn't actually tackle those tensions, instead pretending it's only about a few bad people rather than real societal constructs we need to deconstruct. There are exceptions, especially in the last 4 years or so, but by and large since the 70s, they fall into one of those three categories, usually without doing anything special. So I'm kind of against there being any "Oscar bait" type games in the same kind of vein of actual Oscar bait films. (I'm honestly shocked both Get Out and The Shape of Water were nominated this year- a horror film that deals with Black America's very real fears of white supremacy, and a romantic film about a fishman and a mute woman. I'd never have suspected either, yet, they're there.)

That said, I get the kind of idea you're going for- games that take themselves seriously and want to actually examine the human condition with a decent budget- but given video games as a medium are even more driven by "AAA" culture than the film industry is by blockbusters, I don't really see it happening, nice as it would be. Closest I can think of is Hellblade, and that's still not from a major publisher.

 

[esserius]

That said, I get the kind of idea you're going for- games that take themselves seriously and want to actually examine the human condition with a decent budget- but given video games as a medium are even more driven by "AAA" culture than the film industry is by blockbusters, I don't really see it happening, nice as it would be. Closest I can think of is Hellblade, and that's still not from a major publisher.

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And neither can I. Nothing wrong with floating the idea though, as far away as it probably seems.

 

[Deleted member 4037]

Yeah these aren't about critical analysis. They're just part of the machine (in metacritic's case, quite literally).

I'm not saying there isn't critical analysis. But there's very few for whom developers look to take advice. Critical analysis is largely disconnected from video games, whereas criticism, especially since the 1940s, has continued to develop side-by-side with movie makers, each feeding off the new material gained from the other. A symbiotic relationship like that doesn't exist in video games.

See:

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by metacritic I just meant review sites, if that wasnt clear. I think there is critical analysis of games, when you look at review sites and what makes goty in most cases its usually the bigger budget titles with large worlds now which is what you are seeing devs kind of moving to because that is what people seem to like given that it scores high and receives awards. Even the indie scene goes towards more hand drawn kind of art like cuphead or ori or hollow night cause these are the kinds of things that will grab the attention of people and publications. You could say they are feeding off other games, but then I think the same argument applies to movies, they look at what is being celebrated and take aspects of it. The things they are focusing on just dont happen to be the things that you want them to focus on.

 

[Dary]

Yeah these aren't about critical analysis. They're just part of the machine (in metacritic's case, quite literally).

I'm not saying there isn't critical analysis. But there's very few for whom developers look to take advice. Critical analysis is largely disconnected from video games, whereas criticism, especially since the 1940s, has continued to develop side-by-side with movie makers, each feeding off the new material gained from the other. A symbiotic relationship like that doesn't exist in video games.

See:

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The majority of Video Game Analysis seems steeped in "trope culture", and I'm sure I've moaned about that enough in that thread as it is, so I'll leave it at that XD

 

[rras1994]

Thing is that, often enough, "Oscar bait" isn't all that deep and is blatantly meant to appeal to the shallow interests of the Oscars- basically anything to do with Hollywood or the biz in general, Anglosphere-centric history, or that seems to have to do with societal inequalities, but doesn't actually tackle those tensions, instead pretending it's only about a few bad people rather than real societal constructs we need to deconstruct. There are exceptions, especially in the last 4 years or so, but by and large since the 70s, they fall into one of those three categories, usually without doing anything special. So I'm kind of against there being any "Oscar bait" type games in the same kind of vein of actual Oscar bait films. (I'm honestly shocked both Get Out and The Shape of Water were nominated this year- a horror film that deals with Black America's very real fears of white supremacy, and a romantic film about a fishman and a mute woman. I'd never have suspected either, yet, they're there.)

That said, I get the kind of idea you're going for- games that take themselves seriously and want to actually examine the human condition with a decent budget- but given video games as a medium are even more driven by "AAA" culture than the film industry is by blockbusters, I don't really see it happening, nice as it would be. Closest I can think of is Hellblade, and that's still not from a major publisher.

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The "critical darlings" of the film world are not the big blockbuster films that the public go and see either, and aren't the big money AAA projects either, the game industry isn't that different. Not that means the game industry or the film industry should just pander, they should try to be inclusive and cater to everyone, like for example the Black Panther movie which I've heard good things about (haven't seen yet as am waaaaaaaaaay behind on the marvel movies) and while it's inclusive to black people, it's still a blockbuster movie designed for the average movie goer. And there's nothing wrong with those movies though, they are the kind of stories that humans have told throughout history. More serious and different stuff comes from the smaller budget stuff, it pretty much does in every industry and then good ideas filter up and get incorporated with a different spin. I'm not sure we can expect the games industry to be different

 

[A.J.]

To have "Oscar Bait" you would need to have an award show as big and notable as the Oscars. And it would have to be notable enough for Japan to care as well.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

The "critical darlings" of the film world are not the big blockbuster films that the public go and see either, and aren't the big money AAA projects either, the game industry isn't that different. Not that means the game industry or the film industry should just pander, they should try to be inclusive and cater to everyone, like for example the Black Panther movie which I've heard good things about (haven't seen yet as am waaaaaaaaaay behind on the marvel movies) and while it's inclusive to black people, it's still a blockbuster movie designed for the average movie goer. And there's nothing wrong with those movies though, they are the kind of stories that humans have told throughout history. More serious and different stuff comes from the smaller budget stuff, it pretty much does in every industry and then good ideas filter up and get incorporated with a different spin. I'm not sure we can expect the games industry to be different

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Oh don't get me wrong, I have no issue with blockbusters or more "fun-focused" games. Hell I fucking love them. It'd just be nice if some of the more major game releases weren't all "shooty bang bang tits and ass kaboom", you feel me? It feels like anything that tries to take itself seriously without being held back by its expectations (whether of the publisher or the focus groups) is confined to the indie or "AA" space. Like, you're not gonna see a game that looks into psychosis with any level of care with the same kinda budget a game like Monster Hunter World gets.

 

[esserius]

by metacritic I just meant review sites, if that wasnt clear. I think there is critical analysis of games, when you look at review sites and what makes goty in most cases its usually the bigger budget titles with large worlds now which is what you are seeing devs kind of moving to because that is what people seem to like given that it scores high and receives awards. Even the indie scene goes towards more hand drawn kind of art like cuphead or ori or hollow night cause these are the kinds of things that will grab the attention of people and publications. You could say they are feeding off other games, but then I think the same argument applies to movies, they look at what is being celebrated and take aspects of it. The things they are focusing on just dont happen to be the things that you want them to focus on.

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A review site is not a critical analysis. It can't be, as the nature of reviews is to help people make buying decisions. Some might contain elements of critical analysis, but that's not the modus operandi.

This is why I say they're part of the machine. If video game developers are getting their critical analysis from game reviewers, they're probably barking up the wrong tree.

As an example - A critical analysis of a historical event is looking at things like the history or the people involved, or even something more pointed, such as a particularly important person's upbringing and how that (presumably) influenced their behavior. It's not a, "well the game controlled well, looked pretty, I had fun, A+" situation.

 

[rras1994]

Oh don't get me wrong, I have no issue with blockbusters or more "fun-focused" games. Hell I fucking love them. It'd just be nice if some of the more major game releases weren't all "shooty bang bang tits and ass kaboom", you feel me? It feels like anything that tries to take itself seriously without being held back by its expectations (whether of the publisher or the focus groups) is confined to the indie or "AA" space. Like, you're not gonna see a game that looks into psychosis with any level of care with the same kinda budget a game like Monster Hunter World gets.

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Nah, I get ya. I do feel we are slowly moving away from the "tits and ass" part though, at least in the West. I feel we are getting more topics in game too but it's the game mechanics themselves often go in to the "shooty bang bang" part and there's not much divergence from it. I mean I would say that Dragon Age Inquisition is a game that deals with faith and the difference aspects as well as dealing with the subverting the "chosen one" trope, but that's not what the majority of people talk about when they bring up that game, and it can easily be played as the traditional power fantasy without the gamer looking closer. It's built with the depth there if you look but it also to be shallow in a way so that the consumer just gets their feel good "power fantasy". I love that game but it's annoying when the majority of people discussing it don't care about those parts at all. It does make me worry that less games will try to put those kind of things in cus the audience doesn't seem to care.

 

[spam musubi]

A slight tangent to the ongoing topic, but I had a thought. The whole "Bayonetta's design/actions are ok because she owns her sexuality" feels like a meme sometimes. It's used as a blanket statement to shut down any and all criticism of the franchise, as if that immediately makes it ok. I'm not saying it's entirely false; but I think it's sometimes disingenuously used to silence any conversation around the games. I don't think that's an automatic excuse. And I say this as a huge fan of platinum and the series. Reminds me of this comic:

I think there are degrees to this. Quiet and "words and deeds" is an obvious disingenuous one, the Bayonett argument holds more merit. But I don't think it's an entire free pass. I just wish people wouldn't just use that argument as an immediate conversation ender like I see in every thread this issue is discussed. I thought of this because I was playing Bayo on the switch and my wife saw it and I tried to explain to her and she just rolled her eyes and said it's such a typical excuse. Of course her word isn't be all end all and different women can feel differently but it just made me question the argument and whether it's just a diversion to not discuss the issue.

Edit: also "but a woman designed bayonetta". Yeah, but like I said women aren't a monolith, and a man designed the game.

 

[Deleted member 4037]

A review site is not a critical analysis. It can't be, as the nature of reviews is to help people make buying decisions. Some might contain elements of critical analysis, but that's not the modus operandi.

This is why I say they're part of the machine. If video game developers are getting their critical analysis from game reviewers, they're probably barking up the wrong tree.

As an example - A critical analysis of a historical event is looking at things like the history or the people involved, or even something more pointed, such as a particularly important person's upbringing and how that (presumably) influenced their behavior. It's not a, "well the game controlled well, looked pretty, I had fun, A+" situation.

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you mean specifically story points? I think there is a market for that in certain cases like Mass Effect 3, but I will agree for the most part it is sort of off to the side. I think thats due to AAA's lack of focus on it for the most part when even something like botw barely has a story worth mentioning

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Then why does all her art outside of her work on Soulcalibur not look like well. That?
Why isn't Kazumi running around in a "traditional Japanese" string bikini in her default? Why isn't Bayonetta constantly naked when she's not doing her attacks? Why don't the Garo eyecatches have the girls with boobs the size of their head?
It just doesn't match up. Besides, one can be inspired by Kill la Kill in other ways - it's not ALL Satsuki and Ryuko running around with their tits hanging out, there are other designs as well.
Edit: NOT saying she's not a "known perv" by the way, it just doesn't seem to go into her official art for the most part.

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I mean stuff will still largely be reined in if an artist wants to go even crazier with something. It's just the unwritten rule of standards and practices (not the broadcast term). That line has been getting narrower as of late, which is why I'm not surprised Shimazaki is letting loose.

As an example to approach this topic of deconstruction fully, I believe the writer/mangaka would have to perform a full bait-and-switch. Introduce characters that are typically nubile and attractive, then maybe age them over time. You start to see bags forming under their eyes, waistlines expand from a poor diet, maybe even see (gasp) a pimple or two on their faces.

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This sort of happens, but they usually go full body horror instead of showing the physical imperfections that comes with being a human. Stuff like Franken Fran or the works of Shintaro Kago.

 

[Kinsei]

Ya know, with all the talk of Soul Caliber 6 Ivy, it makes me wonder how people reacted when the female designs were revealed for MKX. That game massively toned down the T&A but I don't remember people making a big deal out of it. Here's a pic of an example, keep in mind that they are the same character. (left is MK9 and right is MKX)

It astounds me that Mortal Kombat of all things is one of the more progressive fighting games. There's even an openly gay character.

 

[esserius]

you mean specifically story points? I think there is a market for that in certain cases like Mass Effect 3, but I will agree for the most part it is sort of off to the side. I think thats due to AAA's lack of focus on it for the most part when even something like botw barely has a story worth mentioning

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It doesn't need to be specifically related to story. It could be about any of the numerous aspects of games. It could be about how that game plays out a certain mechanic, and what successes or failures it has with regards to representation, or about how play influences design or story, or about how programmatic approaches to problem solving can lead to new insights. And these could be broader or narrower analyses, focusing as specifically on something as a single character in a game or as broad as the influence of Mario on games, past and present.

The difference however is that a review, by itself, is not a critical analysis of the text. It simply takes too long to provide that for most reviewers, especially when, again, their goal is to help consumers make purchasing decisions, not provide discourse about the game in a greater or lesser oeuvre (and again, some reviews may do this, but it's not a focus, nor is it common in game reviews).

Lindsay Ellis - the person in the video I just linked, provides a lot of critical analysis on film.

 

[PtM]

A slight tangent to the ongoing topic, but I had a thought. The whole "Bayonetta's design/actions are ok because she owns her sexuality" feels like a meme sometimes. It's used as a blanket statement to shut down any and all criticism of the franchise, as if that immediately makes it ok. I'm not saying it's entirely false; but I think it's sometimes disingenuously used to silence any conversation around the games. I don't think that's an automatic excuse. And I say this as a huge fan of platinum and the series. Reminds me of this comic:

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2015/09/14/kate-beaton/beaton-1.nocrop.w529.h478.jpg

I think there are degrees to this. Quiet and "words and deeds" is an obvious disingenuous one, the Bayonett argument holds more merit. But I don't think it's an entire free pass. I just wish people wouldn't just use that argument as an immediate conversation ender like I see in every thread this issue is discussed. I thought of this because I was playing Bayo on the switch and my wife saw it and I tried to explain to her and she just rolled her eyes and said it's such a typical excuse. Of course her word isn't be all end all and different women can feel differently but it just made me question the argument and whether it's just a diversion to not discuss the issue.

Edit: also "but a woman designed bayonetta". Yeah, but like I said women aren't a monolith, and a man designed the game.

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It's not a diversion, it's an opinion. Maybe Bayo could go unchallenged in another climate.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

Ya know, with all the talk of Soul Caliber 6 Ivy, it makes me wonder how people reacted when the female designs were revealed for MKX. That game massively toned down the T&A but I don't remember people making a big deal out of it. Here's a pic of an example, keep in mind that they are the same character. (left is MK9 and right is MKX)

It astounds me that Mortal Kombat of all things is one of the more progressive fighting games. There's even an openly gay character.

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But they did. I remember to see people complaining how they were changing their outfits like that and how the characters got ugly like Kitana, Sonya, Mileena and others that got a new design.

 

[Xaszatm]

Ya know, with all the talk of Soul Caliber 6 Ivy, it makes me wonder how people reacted when the female designs were revealed for MKX. That game massively toned down the T&A but I don't remember people making a big deal out of it. Here's a pic of an example, keep in mind that they are the same character. (left is MK9 and right is MKX)

It astounds me that Mortal Kombat of all things is one of the more progressive fighting games. There's even an openly gay character.

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They had a massive fit over it, saying characters were ruined and of course, cries of censorship and screaming how they were pandering to the "SJWs" instead of the true crowd. Just goes to show how hypocritical these guys are.

 

[Kinsei]

But they did. I remember to see people complaining how they were changing their outfits like that and how the characters got ugly like Kitana, Sonya, Mileena and others that got a new design.

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They had a massive fit over it, saying characters were ruined and of course, cries of censorship and screaming how they were pandering to the "SJWs" instead of the true crowd. Just goes to show how hypocritical these guys are.

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Ah, I was unaware of that.

 

[Salty Rice]

As far as i know most people welcomed the change they made in MKX since it was ridiculous in MK9.

Surely there are always some people who are against it but it wasnt that many.

MKX designs of old characters were actually one of the most praised aspects of the game.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

There were definitely people against the design changes but they didn't nearly harm the game as much as the detractors would've hoped, I imagine.

Given MK was always a more "mature" (read: mature in the way immature people think maturity should be; not a knock against it as I'm sure there are plenty of people who acknowledge how silly the gore is while still loving it, but facts is facts) series, I just can't imagine that there would be a much larger cabal to boycott SC6 if they actually tried to not be overly masturbatory with the designs. I mean, it's the sister series to Tekken, which definitely saves its more sexualized designs for side costumes (well, excluding Christie but she's an outlier) so... I don't know. It's just weird to think that it'll be the inverse here.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Was apparently designed by Shimazaki-sensei, which I find surprising, I'd assume it to have been more classy-but-sexy to have been designed by her. I can only assume the design was commissioned.

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Edit: also "but a woman designed bayonetta". Yeah, but like I said women aren't a monolith, and a man designed the game.

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It seems to me that designing incredibly erotized female characters has no negative stigma whatsoever in Japan, which shouldn't be surprising considering the race in that direction; crucially, this doesn't carry a stigma even for women. With that in mind, a character being designed by a woman tells us absolutely nothing, and whenever the argument is made that "this character was made by a woman", the response shouldn't be "but I'm sure someone else asked / forced her to"; rather, it should be "women can be sexist too".

I feel like the latter is perhaps a bit of an elephant in the room here in the way it's avoided; it seems counter-feminist to say bad things about women, let alone for a man to say them. However, until we can freely acknowledge that women can be as wrong as any human being about anything, and that this doesn't invalidate one single thing about feminism, anytime a woman does something that is anti-feminist, it can and will be used as a catch-22 argument against feminism itself.

Transformative media isn't objective, which is why people will like "bad" things without admitting they're bad, because they legitimately don't see it as bad. You can have a critical consensus, but no one can decide with the individual finds valuable in fictional media except for, well, the individual.

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It's not so much about admitting "this, which I like, is bad" as it is considering "this, which I like, may be bad" or even "may have problems". Tangentially, it's also "people criticising this, which I like, are not necessarily my enemies". The problem is overidentification of people with the media they consume, to the point that criticising the media is immediately seen as attacking them.

I don't know about you, but being stuck as myself at 14 sounds like hell. :p

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Well turn 40+ and you might reconsider. :)

 

[Antiwhippy]

Thing is are women being willing to embrace their erotic form inherently sexist?

Is it kinda like that recent Jennifer Lawrence kerfuffle?

 

[Deleted member 32561]

It seems to me that designing incredibly erotized female characters has no negative stigma whatsoever in Japan, which shouldn't be surprising considering the race in that direction; crucially, this doesn't carry a stigma even for women. With that in mind, a character being designed by a woman tells us absolutely nothing, and whenever the argument is made that "this character was made by a woman", the response shouldn't be "but I'm sure someone else asked / forced her to"; rather, it should be "women can be sexist too".

I feel like the latter is perhaps a bit of an elephant in the room here in the way it's avoided; it seems counter-feminist to say bad things about women, let alone for a man to say them. However, until we can freely acknowledge that women can be as wrong as any human being about anything, and that this doesn't invalidate one single thing about feminism, anytime a woman does something that is anti-feminist, it can and will be used as a catch-22 argument against feminism itself.

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My problem is that then, who decides what's sexist or not? What makes one woman more an expert on what is sexist or not? For instance, for every person who decries Bayonetta as sexist schlock, there's a woman who says its empowering to her, you know?

Maybe I'm just not ready to have these sorts of discussions. My goal in lurking in this topic is that I don't want people to be uncomfortable in the sort of fandom circles I run around in. I want the games, anime, whatever I'm a fan of to feel welcoming to women, since I know how hard it is for people to find a place to fit in, especially marginalized groups such as women. But if we're in the same breath saying certain types of women aren't allowed then... I'm very confused.

Maybe I'm just approaching this from the wrong direction entirely. I don't know. I apologize if I've said anything out of turn.

 

[Weiss]

Thing is are women being willing to embrace their erotic form inherently sexist?

Is it kinda like that recent Jennifer Lawrence kerfuffle?

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The difference between Jennifer Lawrence and Ivy is that one is an autonomous human being.

 

[Antiwhippy]

The difference between Jennifer Lawrence and Ivy is that one is an autonomous human being.

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I wasn't responding to just that obviously.

I'm more talking about this.

It seems to me that designing incredibly erotized female characters has no negative stigma whatsoever in Japan, which shouldn't be surprising considering the race in that direction; crucially, this doesn't carry a stigma even for women. With that in mind, a character being designed by a woman tells us absolutely nothing, and whenever the argument is made that "this character was made by a woman", the response shouldn't be "but I'm sure someone else asked / forced her to"; rather, it should be "women can be sexist too".

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[Weltall Zero]

My problem is that then, who decides what's sexist or not? What makes one woman more an expert on what is sexist or not? For instance, for every person who decries Bayonetta as sexist schlock, there's a woman who says its empowering to her, you know?

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Welcome to the wonderful world of schisms or divides among feminism, of which there are many. Case in point (and in fact related):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

And yeah, Bayonetta is a case often brought up, and I've seen perfectly valid, intellectually solid feminist writings about why she's a symbol of female empowerment, and likewise about why she's the most objectivized and sexist thing ever. My own opinion is somewhere in between but changing depending on what day of the week you ask me.

Maybe I'm just not ready to have these sorts of discussions. My goal in lurking in this topic is that I don't want people to be uncomfortable in the sort of fandom circles I run around in. I want the games, anime, whatever I'm a fan of to feel welcoming to women, since I know how hard it is for people to find a place to fit in, especially marginalized groups such as women. But if we're in the same breath saying certain types of women aren't allowed then... I'm very confused.

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Well confusion is an awesome place to start! I can't think of a better incitator for curiosity and learning.

So my point of view is that if we're having any discussion about what's good or bad (or what's feminist or sexist), the inherent assumption is that there is an objective good or bad; that is, some things are beneficial and others are damaging (otherwise we're discussing personal preference which leads nowhere). It might not be obvious in many cases which is which (and that's what makes for the most interesting topics), but without the assumption that there is a better way and a less than better way, then what the hell are we even doing here?

It follows that two contradicting opinions can't be simultaneously true; at least one must be wrong. It then follows that if two women hold directly contraditing opinions, at least one must be wrong. Otherwise, any and every opinion can be right, which is a very convenient thing for those happy with the status quo and intent on downplaying the need for any changes or discussion at all. Being a woman doesn't give you magic infallibility powers, nor does it shield your opinion from criticism.

Maybe I'm just approaching this from the wrong direction entirely. I don't know. I apologize if I've said anything out of turn.

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I don't think you said anything offensive and if anything I find your sincerity refreshing. Not everyone is willing to say "I'm confused".

 

[Weltall Zero]

I wasn't responding to just that obviously.

I'm more talking about this.

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So was he, I was talking about the designers of Ivy and Bayonetta. My specific point isn't so much whether they're sexist or not, but rather that there is no physical law that prevents a woman from ever engaging in sexist behaviour or holding sexist opinions. And if this feels nuanced or murky about modern-day character designers in a first world country, it might be easier to see if you think of what your great-great-grandmother thought of the role of women (hint: it was probably not "stay single, be independent, get a job").

My point is that "she's a woman" is not a knockout argument for "she can't be sexist", and therefore "it was designed by a woman" is not an argument for "it can't be a sexist design". No amount of "well perhaps she's embracing her inner sexyness" justification should logically make a character design any better or worse than if it was designed by a male. Either the design is sexist, or it isn't; and we should discuss its intrinsic merits without needing to resort to any fallacy of origins.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I guess that also goes into the murkier pools of authorial intent vs critical interpretation doesn't it?

I agree for sure that "it's by a women" is not a slam dunk "it's not sexist", I was more questioning that embracing eroticism is inherently sexist? I mean I know feminism isn't exactly a consensus anyway, thus the JLaw reference.

 

[esserius]

So was he, I was talking about the designers of Ivy and Bayonetta. My specific point isn't so much whether they're sexist or not, but rather that there is no physical law that prevents a woman from ever engaging in sexist behaviour or holding sexist opinions. And if this feels nuanced or murky about modern-day character designers in a first world country, it might be easier to see if you think of what your great-great-grandmother thought of the role of women (hint: it was probably not "stay single, be independent, get a job").

My point is that "she's a woman" is not a knockout argument for "she can't be sexist", and therefore "it was designed by a woman" is not an argument for "it can't be a sexist design". No amount of "well perhaps she's embracing her inner sexyness" justification should logically make a character design any better or worse than if it was designed by a male. Either the design is sexist, or it isn't; and we should discuss its intrinsic merits without needing to resort to any fallacy of origins.

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Sexism, much like objectification, are neutral terms. They are not inherently feminine or masculine, and their perpetuation is not specific to the creator. Anyone can be sexist, and they can be sexist towards men, towards women, towards homosexuals, bisexuals, transgender, etc. The same is true of objectification.

Or, more to the point, the creator is not the arbiter of our perception. We are allowed to look past a person to see what they create and judge their creations, based on their own merits and histories, and do not have to engage with the creator in order to do so (we certainly can, but it is by no means necessary).

 

[Deleted member 7130]

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Video game anatomy: women don't have areolas

 

[Deleted member 4037]

Video game anatomy: women don't have areolas

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I think its a Japan thing in general, they dont seem to like nipples for the most part

 

[PtM]

Video game anatomy: women don't have areolas

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I'm more bothered by the sexualisation of malnourishment.

 

[Cueil]

I understand the point of view you have and to a point, I want more appropriate armor/clothing for female and male characters, but this conversation isn't going to change to biggest abusers of this, Japanese developers. The unfortunate truth is that until we see more women buying AAA games at a point that affects the bottom line change wont happen outside of a few developers/Publishers. We'll continue to see overly sexualized characters for the foreseeable future because Sex Sells *shrugs*.

 

[esserius]

I understand the point of view you have and to a point, I want more appropriate armor/clothing for female and male characters, but this conversation isn't going to change to biggest abusers of this, Japanese developers. The unfortunate truth is that until we see more women buying AAA games at a point that affects the bottom line change wont happen outside of a few developers/Publishers. We'll continue to see overly sexualized characters for the foreseeable future because Sex Sells *shrugs*.

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Read

The

OP

 

[Xaszatm]

Read

The

OP

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Anyways, let's talk about a western (...sort of) game then that suffers from this: League of Legends. While League of Legends did get better after the story revamp, it still suffers greatly from it's male-female body types. Male characters in that game get so many different body types while women are stuck with two: childlike cuteness and sexy woman. Sure there are exceptions and the story revamp tried to change it but it caused a funny thing where characters are now no longer matching their new personalities (Orianna and Miss Fortune). And even after the story revamp this dichotomy is still there. Men can be beasts, hulking brutes, and sexy sure but women are stuck between the two still.

 

[Deleted member 8001]

New upcoming game called "Ion Maiden" has a very well designed woman character. She has actual armor! Not boob armor!

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ion-maiden-a-build-engine-fps-teases-a-reveal-this-wednesday.25563/

 

[Derpot]

It's a bit sad to read that some people reduce the problem to "you insecure women should stop ruining video games with your insecurities" when the issue is more complicated than that.
Oh well.

Anyways, let's talk about a western (...sort of) game then that suffers from this: League of Legends. While League of Legends did get better after the story revamp, it still suffers greatly from it's male-female body types. Male characters in that game get so many different body types while women are stuck with two: childlike cuteness and sexy woman. Sure there are exceptions and the story revamp tried to change it but it caused a funny thing where characters are now no longer matching their new personalities (Orianna and Miss Fortune). And even after the story revamp this dichotomy is still there. Men can be beasts, hulking brutes, and sexy sure but women are stuck between the two still.

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This reminds me of when a friend and I discussed about LoL. I don't play LoL at all, but my bf and my friend do, I just know some characters. So my friend told me about the lore of a character called Leblanc, and she explained to me that she's basically a manipulator who has been plotting for centuries and she deceives people with illusions and stuff. And of course, she's stupidly gorgeous and has a stupid outfit. Told her "oh so you're saying she's a conveniently gorgeous 1000-year-old female manipulator, how original, lmao". But hey, I just shrugged. "Evil sexy woman deceiving people" is a classic trope that exists for sooo long.

But anyway, it's good that they're trying to diversify female characters more now.

New upcoming game called "Ion Maiden" has a very well designed woman character. She has actual armor! Not boob armor!

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ion-maiden-a-build-engine-fps-teases-a-reveal-this-wednesday.25563/

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Hey, game looks cool. I'm not into fps, but my bf would like it so I'll talk to him about it!

 

[Pablo Mesa]

Laid-Back Camp

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didnt someone in mexico caused a forest fire trying to make a camp fire like in the anime?

 

[Pablo Mesa]

I guess to bring this back to sexualised designs, i think Overlord is a good example of an anime with a couple of non sexualised ones , take Shaltear in her battle armor

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Overlord have both. I think is a good contrast between their "regular" attire and their combat ones

Tho the manga did a better Job representing the Tank orientation that is Albedo

then we have Shaltear

and True Form

Spoiler

Pleiades are ok as long as we dont count in Solution

 

[Aters]

Honestly I like sexy women. I like boobs. What I don't like is when media treats me like a horny teen. I hate it when games sacrifice believable narrative and consistent tone just for fan-service. I don't think about politics too much when I play games, but I always think about what makes a good game.

didnt someone in mexico caused a forest fire trying to make a camp fire like in the anime?

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Thought it was a joke, but maybe not. You can never underestimate the destructive nature of nerds.

 

[Mib]

A lot of anime seems to have this problem. You can deconstruct whatever tropes you want in the narrative, but at the end of the day your characters are still attractive young women in skin-tight suits.

As an example to approach this topic of deconstruction fully, I believe the writer/mangaka would have to perform a full bait-and-switch. Introduce characters that are typically nubile and attractive, then maybe age them over time. You start to see bags forming under their eyes, waistlines expand from a poor diet, maybe even see (gasp) a pimple or two on their faces.

That's the only way I can think of right now where they'd prepare a cake without eating it.

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One good example (and the only one I know) is Eureka from Eureka 7. She starts out as a perfect haired pretty girl that the mc is in love with, and half way through the series sci-fi magic leaves her with rough hair, no eyebrows and facial scar tissue. She's doesn't look horribly deformed though; she looks like she had a bad accident, and the characters (including mc) treat her with the same respect, love, and support as they did before the event irrc.

She ends up staying that way all the way up until the second to last episode, only having the scars heal a little and begining to regrow her hair. It's still kind of a cop out to some degree, but it works with the metaphors they were using it for.

https://imgur.com/gallery/YtnaE

 

[tomasz_terka]

I find picking Ivy or that bunny girl from new Xenoblades as the examples of treatment of women in games in general quite ridiculous. For each Ivy you have 10 other women characters in Soul Calibur with decent designs that are conveniently ignored for the sake of making argument that women are treated as sexual objects and how it makes them unwelcome when, in fact, they're just put there for the sake of filling certain archetype of a woman. Hovewer, nobody forces you to play as an Ivy, and if you insist there will probably be an alt costume that will turn her from a girl with BDSM fetish attire into something more reasonable.

That is not to say you can't complain about that Ivy design, but people will find your argument petty as these characters aren't even central characters in the game. It's just one of choices, not something devs will gleefuly expect you to pick or deal with unless she comes up as an opponent character.

 

[esserius]

I find picking Ivy or that bunny girl from new Xenoblades as the examples of treatment of women in games in general quite ridiculous. For each Ivy you have 10 other women characters in Soul Calibur with decent designs that are conveniently ignored for the sake of making argument that women are treated as sexual objects and how it makes them unwelcome when, in fact, they're just put there for the sake of filling certain archetype of a woman. Hovewer, nobody forces you to play as an Ivy, and if you insist there will probably be an alt costume that will turn her from a girl with BDSM fetish attire into something more reasonable.

That is not to say you can't complain about that Ivy design, but people will find your argument petty as these characters aren't even central characters in the game. It's just one of choices, not something devs will gleefuly expect you to pick or deal with unless she comes up as an opponent character.

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I heard there's an OP in this thread... perhaps you should read it.