Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
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I disagree with the concept that a game focused on realism can be "too real". The whole point is to show things that are relatable to the real audience. If the characterization made the characters seem like plausible people, then it succeeded in its goals. And it managed without making the female characters into Caricatures of humans.
Bayo, to a certain degree, has ownership over her sexuality, but her actual design, much like 2B, undermines that agency.
What do you mean by that? Bayo has 100% control, 2B is more questionable but it does have to do with the narrative.
Yeah, I can understand making the characters relatable for the audience of your game; bring that LIS might not be aimed at my demographic. I just believe that there's only so much you can do with relatability to where the characters become unlikable while still being realistic for their personality and age. Apologies if it doesn't make too much sense, but in short LIS isn't much aiming towards my demographic, more so aiming towards late-teen girls.
Actually I'd ask you to explain what you mean when you say Bayo has "100%" control, since that's obviously never the case in a video game. And upskirt achievements have nothing to do with the narrative. It's just another big budget game that wants to promote its juvenile aesthetics as being more meaningful than they are.
Then perhaps you shouldn't be criticizing it at all, until you develop the capability of being objective. It would be like game reviewers treating baby games on the Leapfrog as if they were intended for the 35+ demographic and complaining that they already know how to read.
First thing is that neither is big budget by any stretch, what I meant is that Bayo has agency in that she does what she wants to do. I kinda see Bayo as the personification of foreplay since she loves teasing people in a cartoonish way (even the player). The upskirt thing is undefendable. Nier definitely is trying to be more than its juvenile pandering but Bayo (in terms of narrative) definitely is not trying to be something meaningful. Both are juvenile but all im saying is that there are far worse contenders if context is the main factor to whether a sexualized character is "ok".
I don't think most will take it as a comfort when your defense amounts to, "well, it's not as bad as other games!" There are lots of things that could be said about Bayonetta and her sexuality; how it's definitely different that she is often in the dominant role when compared to other video games, how sexualization as a weapon is at least interesting when taken literally, rather than the metaphor it's often proposed as. But at the same time that same sexual power is not something she owns nearly so much as it is owned by the director, frequently panning across her body, and in spite of us knowing that she has ownership of and can control the camera (fourth wall breaks abound), frequently it's used to exploit the character that is often the one exploiting. It's a mess of contradictions, frequently and unknowingly countervailing itself of consistent vision on the role of sexuality and power. Those themes are there, but they are explored with the same juvenile aesthetics the game purports itself to be upending.
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It is good to remember that bayonetta cannot be talked in a vacuum as this game also features another skinny tall sexy woman who also does the same and no other non sexy woman has any "going nude" powers.
Hell the game barely has any women besides bayo and jeanne
Hell the game barely has any women besides bayo and jeanne
What is a sexualized female character design that you approve of? That makes sense in context, has agency and is a respectable character.
Edit: Anyone can answer just so we can get examples for discussion.
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Isabella from Dragon Age 2 - the only thing I'd change is putting trousers on her (which I think they did in DAI multiplayer). She's a strong female character who has agency, is more than just sex and mor importantly, while being sexy, she actually does have sex and not just with the player character. All the talk of Bayonetta being in control of her sexuality, does she ever actually have sex with anyone?
They never fucking do, which is why the whole excuses about exploring sexuality always rang completely false to me. These sexualized women are never about women's sexualities at all.
I know you didn't ask me, but I always felt like Mad Moxxi in Borderlands was fine. She's heavily sexualized but I never felt she was objectified at all and it fit her character completely. Plus, she was genuinely funny at times.
I am really regretting looking at his Twitter Feed. He has talent, but everything he draws is just......yeah. I'm not much of a "yikes" person, but this is the perfect situation for it. Some of his stuff is just "yikes".
Bayonetta is essentially the video game version of Suckerpunch as far as i'm concerned when it comes to how people argue that Bayonetta has agency over her sexuality. Bayo 2 especially as voyeur.exe camerawork doesn't stop even when she's in genuine danger and so much of it, right down to how the director talks about the character, would fit right into /r/menwritingwomen.
A reminder that some pubs didn't even let developers have scenes where a protagonist who's a woman kiss a man because they felt that gamers would be offput by that idea, (despite the metric fuckton of hetero romances and damsels in distresses in gaming), let alone having sex. 😂
Has Dragon Quest Builders 2 been discussed here? Did a search and didn't find anything.
I really enjoyed my time with the game overall but there's this entire island/story arc where
and it was just tedious to go through.
I really enjoyed my time with the game overall but there's this entire island/story arc where
You're helping out a mining village, where there is a single woman who every villager is obssesed with (except her father). When people arrive to join the village, they are apprehensive because building is considered a sin... and what changes their minds is seeing this woman and falling in love with her. Everyone constantly argues over who is going to marry her - the giant Golem creature being the most outspoken about it - and their motivation to work hard is the promise of seeing her dress in a Playboy bunny suit and dance for everyone. Once she gets the bunny outfit a handful of other women in the same outfit arrive and work as barmaids for the miners. Part of the main quest is building a huge stage for her to dance for all these buff ass miners. You have the option of bringing her with you to your own island after that storyline is done and I removed her from that mess of a village without question
I'm not exactly sure that being sexualized and having sex should be tied though? Plenty of people can sexualize themselves yet aren't necessarily having sex as a result of it, since that might not even be the aim nor the reason why they sexualize themselves in the first place.
When I wear a short skirt, put on full-face makeup, and dance in a sexy way, it doesn't necessarily mean I want to have sex with people. Expressing sexuality isn't the same as wanting to have sex. I have not a lot of qualms about a character being sexualized and yet their sexual history not being mentioned much. I don't expect the latter to be anyway, given how prude video games mostly are about sex in the first place. What matters more to me, is who created/wrote those characters, if they come from men or women, and how their sexualization is framed, if the character has agenda over it or not. I don't mind Bayonetta at all, even though she ain't a favorite of mine, but I have seen plenty of (feminist) women friends loving her enough to understand that in her case, things are more complex that what it looks like.
When I wear a short skirt, put on full-face makeup, and dance in a sexy way, it doesn't necessarily mean I want to have sex with people. Expressing sexuality isn't the same as wanting to have sex. I have not a lot of qualms about a character being sexualized and yet their sexual history not being mentioned much. I don't expect the latter to be anyway, given how prude video games mostly are about sex in the first place. What matters more to me, is who created/wrote those characters, if they come from men or women, and how their sexualization is framed, if the character has agenda over it or not. I don't mind Bayonetta at all, even though she ain't a favorite of mine, but I have seen plenty of (feminist) women friends loving her enough to understand that in her case, things are more complex that what it looks like.
I second Mad Moxxi. I love her to death. (I think she's my age - old. LOL)
Dragon age has several female characters who are open about their sex lives actually. Well, from what I remember at least.
As for Moxi, TPS actually has a scene where you find out her whole sexualize persona was an act she does. When out of character she acts and sounds more like her children.
It's the abundance of female characters that are somehow an exploration of women's sexuality but don't have sex and there's actually no history that they have ever had sex - there is a difference between a women sexualise herself with her clothes and not having sex, and making a character that is meant to be a take on women's sexuality but never has sex. Especially the amount of times it happens. Do I think Bayonetta's the worst sexualised character ever? No, I think there's alot people could enjoy with her as she's campy and fun - I would question that she's not a good example of expressing female sexuality, and also say that just becaue there are good elements to her character that your feminist friends may like, doesn't mean there aren't elements of her design which aren't sexist and explicably designed for the male gazee. Women can like sexist stuff too. That doesn't discount the stuff that she does well as having a confident, campy female character, especially a playable main one, is not seen often. She's a complicated display of both which is why there is so much discussion about her.
Sure, but it's quite telling that these sexualized characters still never express any kind of sexuality at all either.
I can't really blame anyone for it, given how bad the Sorceress's design is, but those (and the dungeon event screens) didn't really get brought up enough the first go around. I did find a lot to like about the game itself (especially because I loved the everloving shit out of Capcom's D&D games), but this stuff doesn't really do anything but bring the game down:
(she makes moaning sounds of course)
At least I can still play those D&D games on PS3.
I definitely agree with you on Bayo, I think she displays both good elements and bad elements. And as such, I will never mind her as much as much more obvious, much more blatant and annoying displays of casual sexism you can see widely in video games and pop culture in general. Bayo is also one of a kind in the way she's portrayed, and her campiness, confidence and brazenness is what sets her apart from a lot of other female characters, and why a lot of women are loving her and adopting her, despite her other flaws. Is she perfect? No. Is her existence a nuisance to women? I wouldn't think so either. At least, she isn't to me, that's for sure, but I'm just one woman among many after all. She shows clear personal agency over her own sex appeal, and I relate to that, even though the male gaze can still definitely be felt throughought the game in subtle ways.
This is video games we're talking about, the medium is extremely prudish to begin with, and seldom displays the sexuality of anyone regardless of their genders, so I'm not too surprised about that in the first place. I agree with your point though, but I don't feel it's because she's a woman specifically. I mostly feel like it's because she's in a video game, most and foremost. However, I am also not blind at the irony of creating sexy/sexualized characters yet giving them no actual sexual agency/history of their own either, but that would be more blatant in other mediums than in video games, given the fact video games are very prudish in general.
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I would actually say the real issue with Bayonetta is she's used as a cudgel by other people to dismiss concerns with sexualisation. People muddy the water by saying how women like Bayonetta so there's no problem with her sexualisation, when just cus women like her , especially when she has good aspects, doesn't mean there aren't criticisms or things that could be improved. Which is why I think it's important that we have women leading the convo about this, especially about characters like Bayontetta which tend to be alot more complicated, as we can get a variety of women's views. The conversation on how to express women's sexuality should come from women but unfortunately in the gaming community, women are driven out of spaces where this kind of convo happens so it envitably becomes overrun by guys, and while I don't think they mean to it, it tends to make the convo very binary. Either good or bad, no inbetween.
Truth be told, despite playing both of the Borderlands games, I don't really remember much about them. Like sure, it's a campy, whacky run and gun, but to be honest Moxxi doesn't strike me as being terribly memorable. Well, more to the point, Borderlands as a series doesn't strike me as terribly memorable. Still, I can appreciate the character and a lot of what her design is rooted in, which is an inoffensive (if not terribly original) pop punk aesthetic.
To your question, Gilver I think at the very least the recent conversation makes it abundantly clear that I have very specific aesthetics and tastes. That said, nobody here is a monolith, including myself. Still, if I were to pick a character that meets your requirements, I do think that Elly from Xenogears fits.
Agreed.
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Wait what
I had no idea there was that kinda shit in the game. Disappointing.
I'd say that people holding Bayonetta as an example of why sexualization is fine because women like her, implying sexualizing women characters in general is fine as a result, are often completely missing the point of why Bayonetta gets a pass, while most others do not. Bayo feels like she's owning her body, owning her sex appeal, owning her sexual expression. With her, it feels like a genuine personal agenda, while with 95% of sexualized female characters, it feels like it is just forced, serves no other purposes but male gaze & gratification, and are in result extremely shallow and boring (if not downright insulting to various degrees). Now we can have a debate on whether a fictional character can have an agenda (probably not), but until we get women game dev creating such characters in video games, and exploring issues of sexual expression, agenda, and sexuality, I guess this is as good as it gets in the meantime.
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Bayonetta I never got a chance to play personally, and her design looks eh to me, mainly because her outfit's aesthetic doesn't mesh well with me. I can appreciate a game when it does explore a women's sexuality, even though it's not built for me as a gay guy. I guess I would enjoy a game more where it explores a male's sexuality in terms of exploring same-sex stuff, even if the resulting factor doesn't involve sex itself.
That's a fair statement, especially given that rape victims tend to be further victimized for their circumstances after an assault.
One character that annoys me personally is from Star Ocean 4. The requisite woman-dressed-in-a-scarf in that game is a grieving widow with no interest in picking up a new romance because she is still dealing with her husband's death. So why is she dressed like a professional latin dancer at the world championships? I'll see if I can find a pic.
Allegedly a serious scientific researcher, because heels are so comfortable to wear in both the laboratory and the field.
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I'm actually wanting to know a bit more about this sort of stuff. In the terms of making an actual good character that doesn't use rape as a traumatic event.
I havent a clue where the Pedophiliac comment comes from...
all the unlockable artwork is viewable here
A context where it would be ok for a character to be in a sexy dress is if the narrative has a scenario where people would realistically dress up. Such as a fancy party. Or showing skin when two adult characters are about to have sex. Not when they go battle dragons and run hundreds of kilometres in rough terrain.
See: Parasite Eve 1 and Aya at the opera. People in real life dress up for such occasions so it doesn't raise any eyebrows that Aya would be in such an outfit.
Bayonetta has certain positive characteristics (she is portrayed in a fairly sex positive way and being in control of her own body) but overall it still has a lot of problematic stuff, mostly in relation to the framing. Her personality says she is in control of her sexuality and then the camera does everything to basically molest her.
The pervy dresses in Nier Automata have absolutely no reason to be in the game. The narrative wouldn't suffer at all if they toned the objectification and sexualization down considerably.
I honestly don't understand why Bayonetta is more in control over her sexualization than Poison in SFV or Nyotengu in DOA6 or any other over-sexualized character, they're just designed and animated to be confident, flirty and teasing, by men for men. I think it's a bullshit defense tbh. Personally I can't stand any of them and I can't see any reason what so ever that any sexualized game would be worse with a normal strong woman in the leading role.
I'll probably step on some toes now but the latest grown-up Lara Croft is a good example of a strong woman in a leading role imo. She has stopped being flirty and teasing and doesn't do any seductive posing or weird stripper moves, she has stopped running around in skimpy clothes or dresses, the camera doesn't do the gaze thing, etc. She just happen to be very very beautiful.
I'll probably step on some toes now but the latest grown-up Lara Croft is a good example of a strong woman in a leading role imo. She has stopped being flirty and teasing and doesn't do any seductive posing or weird stripper moves, she has stopped running around in skimpy clothes or dresses, the camera doesn't do the gaze thing, etc. She just happen to be very very beautiful.
Well, I mean, there's...ummm...that one character? No, maybe not. Surely there's a good example of this somewhere. *cries*
On a side note, this makes me want to see a main character like Lizzo in a game now.
Lizzo's body-type I would love to be in a game. Let's just hope future devs take note.
You're still hard-pressed to find this in any media, sadly. You might see non-traditional bodytypes for men more often, but men are rarely given any sexuality to speak of, unless machismo comes across as sexual to you (in which case you have all the options in the world). And it all still seems largely confined to two body types, those of the waif and the muscle hellscape. Media has a lot of work it needs to do on bodytypes in general.
Oh yeah, certainly needs some huge work in the male department too. Mainly having some more chubby options. Same with women as well.
Thanks for posting this. I love certain designs to death, 2B being one of them, but I don't need to defend them and I don't think it needs to be defended. I literally come into this thread to get the other perspective so it's really frustrating when people come in here and try to ruin the point of the thread. Definitely speak up more often. I think this thread needs this from time to time.
I don't know why you feel obligated to defend it. Nothing is safe from criticism and you can still like something even if other people don't. It still exists. I think you can understand why it can be problematic and still like it for yourself for whatever reason that you do. I think it's particularly difficult and self-defeating to not at least admit that 2B's design could lower people's potential to get into the title. Not everyone wants bare ass in their face while playing a video game.
Nier Automata is one of my favorite games of all time, but I won't defend 2B's design, EVEN though I love it. It makes the game hard to recommend to certain people and undermine's the overall experience to a lot of people. Even if it doesn't to us personally, that's irrelevant.
It feels like 80% of the replies in the Dragons Crown thread are from people that have never even looked at his thread once...
Sometimes I see she and I get preemtively tired, i'm sorry. I saw that one dude who victim blamed the guy being offended at the homoephobia the artist for the game did. And reversed course. I'll try just, that's a fucking crazy first impression of a thread
I'd join in, but I've only spent like an hour playing Dragon's Crown. As such I don't have the frame of reference to discuss it outside of the occasional pic I've seen here and there.
Man, I haven't played Dragon Crown, but seeing beyond the designs of some characters, and coming across things like the monk warrior in that pose and groaning, or that freaking Amazon down pose, yeah no. Definitely some issues....
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