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Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
Now that's straight up bs. We had three weeks of people posting threads about how dangerous this film is before any of the media or FBI started talking about. Then pairs in favour of the film started dying down massively once staff posts threatened to ban people for defending it.
I think what your posting is straight up BS. Most of the people on here are defending this movie from some boggeyman while downplaying or justifying any criticism posters have about the marketing and the actual content, even in this thread. That's not outrage, that's criticism. No matter how much nuance anybody approaches with this subject it's always met with "but look at this outrage" which stems from Warner's pre-manufactured PR statements anyway.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,258
The moments when Walt went over the line were plain and the people he wrongly hurt were frequently far more sympathetic than him. His behaviour came off as unhinged, unjustifiable, and uncontrolled. The concern with the Joker movie seems to be that Joker is cast as somewhat more sympathetic.

I haven't seen the film yet though so I don't actually know how much credence there is to that.
Weren't a lot of people rooting for Walter White?

Art is being deemed problematic for not explicitly and unambiguously spelling out its intended message.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Yeah, it's weird because the movie is out and no one has really articulated HOW Joker is an incel movie. People were shouting for days that it was, but they're all silent or still with the hot takes that it is incel related or inspires them.

It's heavily implied he killed the girl he liked who didn't return his feelings
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
That's enough for people to view him as a hero?
He is a white guy who has cancer who starts making and sell meth to help his family financially. That same reason is spouted to the end. Either people saw through that or they didn't. The point is while Breaking Bad is critically lauded, Joker gets this weird vocal backlash for doing the same thing. It seems exploring why someone would do bad is now a bad thing or is selectively called out.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I think what your posting is straight up BS. Most of the people on here are defending this movie from some boggeyman while downplaying or justifying any criticism posters have about the marketing and the actual movie, even in this thread. No matter how much nuance anybody approaches the subject it's always met with "but look at this outrage" which stems from Warner's pre-manufactured PR statements anyway.

People are defending it now because the films out now and they've watched it so people claiming it inspires incels don't have a leg to stand on. And it may surprise you but as expected, they actually didn't make a film about how killing people or incel tendencies is a good thing.
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
People are defending it now because the films out now and they've watched it. And it may surprise you but as expected, they actually didn't make a film about how killing people is a good thing.
You do realize I'm mostly talking about before the movie came out. I have doubt most posters here have seen it yet. And your still missing the point this is a manufactured outrage.
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
Wall Street did. The opposite of what Oliver Stone wanted to happen happened.

I've not watched the Joker so no idea what it is about just answering OP's question.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,115
Walter literally kills Nazis as a revenge for his empire. He goes down a hero for many people.
The finale isn't representative of his behaviour during the rest of the show though, it was his attempt at redemption.

But frequently in the rest of the show, he's doing awful shit to people who very plainly don't deserve it.
 

Braag

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,908
Must be a mainly US thing as no one where I live talks about such concerns. Pretty much everyone is just interested in seeing the move like it's any other movie.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
Compare joker to American history x?

that's a bold move. Doesn't really make any sense whatsoever.

American history X has a clear anti hate message.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
The finale isn't representative of his behaviour during the rest of the show though, it was his attempt at redemption.

But frequently in the rest of the show, he's doing awful shit to people who very plainly don't deserve it.
And how many people still cheered Walter on and called Skylar a bitch? Too many. The point is the show rationalized his actions and he wasn't seen as more evil or repulsive by viewers. You are made to be sympathetic because his ultimate reason for doing so is to help his family.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
You do realize I'm talking about before the movie came out.

I mean I could link to a number of threads going back to even August claiming the movie will inspire incel shooters.




Even the threads just about clips of the movie were filled with people saying it inspires incels.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,115
Weren't a lot of people rooting for Walter White?
People are weird. Like I said, I haven't seen Joker so I can't really comment on the content of that movie. I just felt like Breaking Bad made it very obvious that Walt was a bad person who did bad things and didn't much care how it harmed others, even innocent people.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
People are weird. Like I said, I haven't seen Joker so I can't really comment on the content of that movie. I just felt like Breaking Bad made it very obvious that Walt was a bad person who did bad things and didn't much care how it harmed others, even innocent people.
oh,butthat'sdifferent.gif
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
I mean I could link to a number of threads going back to even August claiming the movie will inspire incel shooters.




Even the threads just about clips of the movie were filled with people saying it inspires incels.
Literally not outrage and most of the posts are defending the movie or think the premise of the OP is ridiculous.

I guess not wanting another Aurora = woke culture or something.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,115
And how many people still cheered Walter on and called Skylar a bitch? Too many. The point is the show rationalized his actions and he wasn't seen as more evil or repulsive by viewers. You are made to be sympathetic because his ultimate reason for doing so is to help his family.
Anyone who didn't see through that ultimate reason before the end is blind. Walt makes it clear what he's all about when people beg him to show some sense. This isn't about his family it's about his ego and his wounded pride. "I'm in the empire business."
oh,butthat'sdifferent.gif
Like I said. Haven't seen Joker, can't judge the truth of the complaints for myself.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
Anyone who didn't see through that ultimate reason before the end is blind. Walt makes it clear what he's all about when people beg him to show some sense. This isn't about his family it's about his ego and his wounded pride. "I'm in the empire business."

Like I said. Haven't seen Joker, can't judge the truth of the complaints for myself.
And when you see Joker, you will understand the hypocricy too.
 

Arcsurvivor

Member
Jul 13, 2018
147
The Aurora experience has caused a lot of fear especially in American theaters showing Joker. Is it warranted? Maybe, but but it's better to be cautious I guess.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
We had armed police officers in my screening at 12:30pm, wasn't even half full. I'm curious if others had similar experiences, I've never seen that in a theater before.

Mind you, I'm in Colorado. South Denver, maybe 30 minutes or so from Aurora.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Literally not outrage and most of the posts are defending the movie or think the premise of the OP is ridiculous.

I guess not wanting another Aurora = woke culture or something.

Not outrage but you have an issue with people thinking this movie isn't gonna cause another Aurora shooting then? Going so far as to insinuate I'm the sort of person who complains about woke culture in a stealth edit.
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
Not outrage but you have an issue with people thinking this movie isn't gonna cause another Aurora shooting then? Going so far as to insinuate I'm the sort of person who complains about woke culture in a stealth edit.
My point is that there's no outrage and you proved it. Good job.

(And it wasn't a stealth edit nor was it accusatory, it was just another thought and I do that to my posts a lot)
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
Too many people became allergic to non vanilla entertainment to the point they lost the ability to enjoy feeling challenged.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
Liberals being guilty of the same kind of moral panic right-wingers and Christians have engaged in forever. See post right below this one.

It's quite pathetic, really. Several magnitudes less pathetic than incels and right-wingers, but still pathetic in its own right.

This. It's Chicken Little bullshit combined with a no so subtle side of trying to will something bad into existence just so they can stand on their pulpits and wag their fingers and claim, "I told you so". You can feel the saliva dripping in some of the posts around here of people wanting desperately to be vindicated by a tragedy happening and them having called it. It's gross.
 

Deleted member 39450

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 3, 2018
476
Boston, MA
Making mountains of molehills is an enduring tradition. Era is a pretty progressive board and I think I've heard more about progressives complaining about Joker than I have progressives actually complaining about Joker. This is me officially kicking off the complaining about the complaint complaining, by the way. The line starts here.

Well, I think when people read something incredibly hyperbolic, they're more motivated to respond and reject it. That's just the nature of the beast.

My primary quibbles with younger progressives is that they often seem to have absolutely no basis for thinking rationally or with any sense of proportionality. Combined with a nasty negativity bias, I really sometimes wonder how well they're going to be able to navigate adulthood.
 
Nov 1, 2017
246
DFW, Texas
A Clockwork Orange was pulled from circulation by Kubrick (and Warners) because of copycat crimes and general fears of violence and remained that way until Kubrick's death. Fight Club resulted in some real fight clubs and mild domestic terrorism.
in the UK only -- A Clockwork Orange was never pulled in the States, we love our ultraviolence and death by giant dildo here in the USA!
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,981
Compare joker to American history x?

that's a bold move. Doesn't really make any sense whatsoever.

American history X has a clear anti hate message.

Eh, there's a lot of issues with American History X and how it conveys its message:

- Edward Norton's character is a much more powerful figure when he was Nazi (Shirtless, shredded Edward Nortion giving charismatic speeches is much more "badass" than his meeker attitude after he's reformed)
- The message is "hate is bad" but actual points are never addressed. For example, Norton's characters make several arguments about Rodney King and Affirmative Action which are never debunked. People just shake their heads, but never confront him directly.
- The first black friend the main character makes in prison wins him over by basically doing a mini minstrel show.
- The ending...just the ending.

Obviously I'm not arguing the movie itself has a pro-Nazi stance. Its anti-hate message is pretty clear. But, just because a piece of media has a blatant intended message, that doesn't mean it actually conveys it well.

Another example is Rorschach. Alan Moore clearly portrayed Rorschach as an unstable, hateful, sexist, homophobic, conspiracy obsessed loser. But he gets some "cool" moments and a sympathetic backstory, and, despite a very clear message, that's enough where a lot of people see him as the "hero" of Watchmen.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,764
Another example is Rorschach. Alan Moore clearly portrayed Rorschach as an unstable, hateful, sexist, homophobic, conspiracy obsessed loser. But he gets some "cool" moments and a sympathetic backstory, and, despite a very clear message, that's enough where a lot of people see him as the "hero" of Watchmen.

That's a great example.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
So where is this coming from? Is it just that Americans live in such a divisive and tension filled country?
It is partly that for sure. The movie is reviewing much better outside the US. Perhaps because it is a real shock for American media to see America depicted in such a savagely critical light.

But so far the US audience seem to love it.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,981
Yes.

All this polemic is so weird to me.

Imagine watching The Godfather and think "ok, but why the movie doesn't make it clear that they are villains?"

There's the point that we have Gamergate and plenty of other examples of the ways nerd culture is used by the incel and alt-right communities. So unless the mob was using social media to brainwash people into joining them with Godfather shitposts, the comparison doesn't completely stack.

Granted, I think the controversy over the Joker film isn't going to lead to anything. But I can definitely understand why people might be nervous about it.
 

Maolfunction

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,871
Having seen the movie, I did take issue with how the movie frames Arthur as a sympathetic character and that did make me pause a bit considering our current cultural climate.

Even in a vacuum though, I still would call Joker a very middling movie as there's much better movies that explore the ideas in the film better.

I'm also of the opinion that the film does not cater to incels as there's no real ideology that Arthur follows, so that angle is completely manufactured by journalists who don't know what the word incel actually means. Arthur is just a sad, lonely sack of shit in the film. He has no underlying philosophy that pushes him to his ultimate demise as Joker. He's just an abused, mentally ill person that the film implies has no choice in what he does because he goes off his meds, (a very gross depiction of those with mental illnesses I might add) has a troubled childhood and becomes psychopathic as a result of those things. He's not at all motivated to violence because he can't get laid. He has absolutely no interest in sex as far as I could tell. He wants the world to quit treating him like shit and is desperate for a friendly face.

I think the film would have been infinitely better if it had stepped away from mental illness and troubled childhood completely. Those are such well worn tropes in Hollywood, I'm completely over directors and screenwriters who have no clue what they're doing wield them like blunt hammers to blame instead of letting their characters shoulder the weight of their actions fully. It would have been better if Arthur, sound of mind, delved into his violent end as a result of his perceived forced loneliness since he takes no steps to reach out and find people who might be friendly to him.

It is not society's fault that Arthur became Joker. It's Arthur's fault, but the movie shields him by blanketing mental illness and abuse over him. And there's not a single character Arthur interacts with meaningfully that isn't a massive dick to him. It's extremely easy to walk away from the movie with a sense of sympathy and pity for him as if he deserves any.

I do think the controversy is overblown, the film is not good enough to warrant so much hand wringing and discussion. It's barely surface deep, any movement it inspires, if any, will be shallow as hell and will die out by next year. But I also understand where the concern comes from considering America's current climate. It's ultimately nothing and probably hurts more than helps anything, but this is the hell timeline we're living in currently where everything feels like raw nerve exposure.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,695
There is a rise of radical white terrorism, and also "chan" or just part of internet culture in general as it pertains to trolls, who are much like the character of the Joker, sowing discord just for the sake of it. I'm a big proponent of we should not count what happens online as not a part of the "real world", I think there are a shitload of troubled people out there who engage in that sort of thing on the internet and having it glorified in a movie is something to keep an eye on- people who do that shouldn't have a protagonist like the Joker to relate to.
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
Watch the movie. The controversy is a media creation, majority of viewers will agree with me

it's not incel friendly, it's less violent than many other films, it's just grim and depressing
 

Dre3001

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,853
I think the current divisive climate in the US is the main cause for concern. The other movies you mention in the OP weren't released at a time when the topic of those movies was at a boiling point.

Just in the last 2-3 years, there have been a significant increase in mass shootings in the country and the consistent catalyst seems to be the exact character that the movie is about (mental issues, lonely male, ostracized from society, etc).

Most people know that our country has a significant issue with guns and mental health and that things will continue until steps are put in place to address those issues. But until then, people don't want to be reminded of the problem and hope that ignoring it will eventually make it go away.

The "fear" surrounding this movie is from people who think this will push more troubled individuals out there over the edge and lead to more acts of violence.