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Why Halo Infinite would greatly benefit from a return to its roots
- Thread starter Stowaway Silfer
- Start date
A story that isnt dogshit and enemies that are interesting to fight would be nice. Halo 5 SP was awful
OP
OP
How so? I'd really appreciate an elaboration because as I said in the OP, I only have cursory understanding of many current MP games and am looking to learn since Halo 5 is the only one that is interesting to me for MP. It seems to me like perhaps not as a feature but as a trend, enhanced mobility is dead because CoD which implemented it towards the start of the gen and removed it and Respawn are the ones who made me take notice of the feature but now their new game doesn't have mobility in the same vein as their Titanfall games. Am I missing something important?
Heh
I just want a good game. Give me a good story without veering too far from Halo gameplay. Just make the gunplay rewarding. I want my shotguns snappy and my headshots to pop. That's the one thing Destiny got really right.
In absolute fairness no they didn't. If anything they continued upon the themes of Halo Reach which expanded up on Halo 3.
Equipment became Armor Abilities and some of those became Spartan Abilities and the rest got dropped like a bad habit and Halo 5 is about as Old school Halo 2/3 as the game is getting while retaining Sprint.
If you are placing the blame on Sprint then look at Halo Reach.
Outside of Sprint you have a Boost and a Clamber separating Halo Reach and Halo 5 with the notable exception of
No Bloom (Community hated feature)
No Armor Abilities (Community divisive feature)
There are things about the basic mechanics of halo 3 that feel bad. Point blank. I don't think enhanced mobility is dead, i think theres more discernment about the quality of said mobility and acceptance of certain limitations being placed on it.
Halo 5 felt good because unlike advanced warfare, you dont circumvent regular traversal, you have to earn height advantages still. The map design became more like a jungle gym, where you go from point to point to gain ground, and once you've gained it things like ground pound become accessible, and thruster boosting can carry you further.
Cosmetic things like the way aiming down sights looks can easily be tweaked to feel more classic, but i want an expansion and refinement on the physicality and agility i always expected a spartan to have. This doesn't mean keeping every feature in, ground pounding for example could definitely be cut or made more intuitive, situational and less powerful.
But i think halo 5 demonstrated a level of design intelligence from 343 that gives me confidence they can follow the spirit of classic halo without simply repeating the exact form of it. And its clear they've already been thinking along those lines from what little they've showed.
Halo 5 felt good because unlike advanced warfare, you dont circumvent regular traversal, you have to earn height advantages still. The map design became more like a jungle gym, where you go from point to point to gain ground, and once you've gained it things like ground pound become accessible, and thruster boosting can carry you further.
Cosmetic things like the way aiming down sights looks can easily be tweaked to feel more classic, but i want an expansion and refinement on the physicality and agility i always expected a spartan to have. This doesn't mean keeping every feature in, ground pounding for example could definitely be cut or made more intuitive, situational and less powerful.
But i think halo 5 demonstrated a level of design intelligence from 343 that gives me confidence they can follow the spirit of classic halo without simply repeating the exact form of it. And its clear they've already been thinking along those lines from what little they've showed.
Alternatively I still feel like halo 5s systems never got the fully featured n finished game they deserve. Aesthetically it was too safe n samey, and map design wise it was too focused on symmetrical shit.
I think the mobility adds to the depth of Halo as opposed to takes away from it like equipment, reach and 4 did.
But if Halo 2 could also comeback (with those button commands), then I'm cool too.
I think the mobility adds to the depth of Halo as opposed to takes away from it like equipment, reach and 4 did.
But if Halo 2 could also comeback (with those button commands), then I'm cool too.
Halo 3 with slightly faster move speed and hitscan weapons. Thats the perfect Halo game right there.
The headline made me think of Halo : CE. Halo 2 and beyond all failed to live up to the promise of the first game imo.
Like ffs just give me another beach landing, huge open world map, with sandbox physics.
Like ffs just give me another beach landing, huge open world map, with sandbox physics.
I would like the openness + sense of a new world from halo1 and the story, and setpieces from titan fall 2.
No sprint, or zoom for each weapon, basically I want the new halo to play more like 2,3 with some refine.
they can call it 'smart-link' all they want but it's literally ADS. not all guns have it but all the important ones (BR, DMR, magnum) do.
they can call it 'smart-link' all they want but it's literally ADS. not all guns have it but all the important ones (BR, DMR, magnum) do.
Visuals != Gameplay mechanic
PREACH
Halo Infinite can not be Halo 5 2, it needs to stand out from the even bigger crowd than there was in 2015 where Halo 5 wasn't even unique with Titanfall and Black Ops 3 on the market.
Going back to the gameplay style of pre Reach Halo is needed at this point as the current trend of Halo is being built off of when Reach was an experiment for Destiny and in the age of COD clones. A new path forward can still be taken.
Really, all Halo should be is being able to do the killing with as little button presses as possible. Fire, grenade, and melee is it, and everything surrounding those from movement to visibility should not distract from those 3 core functions.
Sprint immediately ruins this and 343 were hell bent on staying with the COD roots so much that they attempted to bandaid the infection by restricting shield recharge. You know it's a problem and in order to keep it in Halo you now inhibit a series staple like shields, for a mechanic based solely on its connection to being the next COD?
Keep thrusters and tweak them so that they last long enough to shoot a few bullets and fast enough to where it can be viable as a quick strafe, but difficult to master so that battles aren't 20 seconds of people thrusting around each other. An actual new mechanic that rewards skill, outplaying, and a sense of speed.
Other things like ground pound and slide can just be tied to the thrusters. In the air, thrust then melee, slide would be thrust then crouch. Have it be the difference from Halo 1-3 and new Halo. A mechanic that opens up more options that are secondary to base functions but can be mastered to enhance that 30 seconds of fun.
Let's get a large FOV, fast base movement speed, smaller, tight map design, continue with the balance that Halo 5 introduced and reduce clutter in visuals and Halo can start looking like an interesting choice in 2020 as opposed to "Oh look, another shooter."
Halo Infinite can not be Halo 5 2, it needs to stand out from the even bigger crowd than there was in 2015 where Halo 5 wasn't even unique with Titanfall and Black Ops 3 on the market.
Going back to the gameplay style of pre Reach Halo is needed at this point as the current trend of Halo is being built off of when Reach was an experiment for Destiny and in the age of COD clones. A new path forward can still be taken.
Really, all Halo should be is being able to do the killing with as little button presses as possible. Fire, grenade, and melee is it, and everything surrounding those from movement to visibility should not distract from those 3 core functions.
Sprint immediately ruins this and 343 were hell bent on staying with the COD roots so much that they attempted to bandaid the infection by restricting shield recharge. You know it's a problem and in order to keep it in Halo you now inhibit a series staple like shields, for a mechanic based solely on its connection to being the next COD?
Keep thrusters and tweak them so that they last long enough to shoot a few bullets and fast enough to where it can be viable as a quick strafe, but difficult to master so that battles aren't 20 seconds of people thrusting around each other. An actual new mechanic that rewards skill, outplaying, and a sense of speed.
Other things like ground pound and slide can just be tied to the thrusters. In the air, thrust then melee, slide would be thrust then crouch. Have it be the difference from Halo 1-3 and new Halo. A mechanic that opens up more options that are secondary to base functions but can be mastered to enhance that 30 seconds of fun.
Let's get a large FOV, fast base movement speed, smaller, tight map design, continue with the balance that Halo 5 introduced and reduce clutter in visuals and Halo can start looking like an interesting choice in 2020 as opposed to "Oh look, another shooter."
There's nothing to find out or it being hidden, it's been this way since halo 1... and also just think about it; the accuracy circle stays the same size relative to your screen although you're zooming in. Your accuracy circle is thus smaller and tighter if observed from the non-zoomed position.
And that is the problem. Why does it need to be that? It's unnecessary and only serves as an attempt to please an audience that wasn't a sure bet to go after.
I couldn't agree more OP and I'll reiterate what Ive said for a long time-if I want to play a hybrid of halo/cod I can play vitrually any shooter on the market. If I want to play a modern version of classic Halo, I have nothing. If 343 want to keep the version of the game theyve built I think thats fine but the solution should at least be, why not do what CoD did and get a second studio making Halo games that play like the classic versions did? Seriously win win for everyone and it blows my mind MS hasn't actually done this considering how badly theyre hurting for first party games.
no its isnt, it effects bullet spread. 343 straight up lied during the beta that it was only cosmetic but others tested it and proved it effects bullet spread.
Thx for Blink Stinkles much appreciated
I like how several people have already pointed out how you're wrong and how the "not-ADS" has gameplay implications for accuracy and spread, but you just keep ignoring those and arguing against low hanging fruit
Time ain't gonna sweep itself!
criminally underrated classic and one of the best Japanese exclusives for any US system
I don't know, the problem with Halo 4 wasn't really the new core abilities; it was losing the sandbox aspects and trading the open-ish structure for pretty graphics.
I don't know about 5, haven't played it, but infinite seems to be taking a completely new approach so I doubt a return to the series' roots is happening.
I don't know about 5, haven't played it, but infinite seems to be taking a completely new approach so I doubt a return to the series' roots is happening.
I would love it if the core was a lot like Halo 2 Anniversary multilayer and then they build out from there.
It gives you better range and a tighter bullet spread. It's ADS.
I would LOVE so much a Halo ODST 2 taking place during the events of Halo 2 (on Halo Delta) or Halo 3 (battle of Earth or battle of the Ark) with Master Chief cameos and with their new engine and next-gen graphics.
ODST are cool. They definitely need to return !
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I really don't think Halo would benefit from being open world. I'd much rather they just focus on large, open levels like the mission Halo in CE and Winter Contingency in Reach.
its really hard to put into words what I want from Halo exactly.
Recapture that sense of scale and feeling of being lost in a strange alien world feel of Halo that they failed to do since. Weapons that feel new and a bit weird. Stuff like the needle gun and plasma gun where dope in Halo CE and eventually you run out of good ideas and we just got "its a shotgun but ALIEN! WOW LOOK AT ALL THE GLOWY BITS! THATS HOW YO KNOW ITS ALIEN" Same thing with bad guys. It was deflating as heck when you fight the covinent in Halo 4 and beyond.
What I want is a Resident Evil 7 type franchise reinvention but for Halo. Something completely new. But looked at its origins and the feelings it gave people are reimagine them for today.
It say pulling such a thing off is a tall order would be a understatement
Recapture that sense of scale and feeling of being lost in a strange alien world feel of Halo that they failed to do since. Weapons that feel new and a bit weird. Stuff like the needle gun and plasma gun where dope in Halo CE and eventually you run out of good ideas and we just got "its a shotgun but ALIEN! WOW LOOK AT ALL THE GLOWY BITS! THATS HOW YO KNOW ITS ALIEN" Same thing with bad guys. It was deflating as heck when you fight the covinent in Halo 4 and beyond.
What I want is a Resident Evil 7 type franchise reinvention but for Halo. Something completely new. But looked at its origins and the feelings it gave people are reimagine them for today.
It say pulling such a thing off is a tall order would be a understatement
Small open world if you prefer, like the whole game taking place on a single halo, kinda linear missions (open wide) but with a clear sense that everything is connected. No load times, recurring landmarks and so on.
No, am not talking about these features. I don't care if there is a sprint or not.
Prometheans, Osiris, Spartan IV, Locke the moron, Cortana, and so on.
They also drifted away far from being an evolution of Reach with killstrikes, perks and loudout. Messed up.
Especially on BTB maps or bigger. I think a projectile DMR would be a good version of it.
Based on Bonnie Ross recent interview, given the teaser too, this Halo will be going back to its roots, even the art looks inspired utterly from Halo 3. I do hope they keep all the Halo 5 movement, its a true joy to use, and is the reason why it's superior to any FPS this gen for me.
Barely, I'm just as deadly using from the hip as I always was. ADS has no impact.
OP
OP
I've never thought of them doing this in the way CoD rotates studios. It is pretty interesting to consider. I've just never questioned the approach since Halo has consistently been just one universe and Call of Duty, as far as I know, has multiple universes.
Me too. Halo 2 Anniversary Multiplayer is actually my favorite MP in the whole franchise and right now with the Match Composer of MCC, I either choose to only play it or couple it with OG Halo 2. I love how simple it is like the original trilogy while being really impressive visually. The modified Halo 4 engine with a visual style closer to the first trilogy (with black undersuits!!) looks great. IMO it's a shame that it was overshadowed by the launch troubles of the MCC and the fact that MCC includes every other multiplayer in the series which leaves it unfocused and has a result H2A only has a handful of maps and has seemingly been forgotten. It even has a Forge mode that apparently was the most advanced before H5 but there's no way to find Forge maps as far as I know and there aren't even Forge maps in matchmaking.
Yeah, jem you need to stop saying it's visual only when it's not lol. Just because it doesn't make you walk slowly like most ADS shooters doesn't mean it's not ADS. Not all ADS are the same exact thing, but Halo 5 clearly has several ADS weapons.
That being said, I think ADS has largely been overblown by the community. Sure, it makes the AR a bit more accurate at range, but that's not a bad thing imo. It's not OP, nor is it underpowered like it is in some other Halo games. I personally think iron sights look wack and take up too much screen estate, so I'd give people the option to loadout with standard iron sights like the default H5 BR or allow people to use the 2x zoom it used to have in previous games. I don't see the harm in that while giving players more customization options.
Agree with most of you say. There was always a nice sort of wholesomeness and sense of scale to having to rely on vehicles to get around big maps.
Ive always said (and people have disagreed) that I dislike the Halo Extended Universe and the way that Spartans are shown as a different type of super soldier to how they are the games. A lot of things like Spartan abilities and sprint and jump boosts feel like an attempt to live up to how Spartans are in the books than how they should play In a game.
However I disagree on ADS. I was sceptical at first buts it's one of the few good features of Halo 5. I never liked the old zooming in in previous games.
Kind of a general tangent here, but I wouldn't actually say it's a "boots on the ground" thing but rather more of enhanced mobility having a massive skill floor. It's the same issue with maps that try and implement verticality.
Most players who play shooter games aren't particularly good at them. Not trying to sound up my own ass there but if you play a game that lets you spectate squad mates you'll know this is true. Now, enhanced mobility kills off spawn camping, camping, snipers, basically anything easy. It allows highly skilled players to utterly dominate.
Ive always said (and people have disagreed) that I dislike the Halo Extended Universe and the way that Spartans are shown as a different type of super soldier to how they are the games. A lot of things like Spartan abilities and sprint and jump boosts feel like an attempt to live up to how Spartans are in the books than how they should play In a game.
However I disagree on ADS. I was sceptical at first buts it's one of the few good features of Halo 5. I never liked the old zooming in in previous games.
Kind of a general tangent here, but I wouldn't actually say it's a "boots on the ground" thing but rather more of enhanced mobility having a massive skill floor. It's the same issue with maps that try and implement verticality.
Most players who play shooter games aren't particularly good at them. Not trying to sound up my own ass there but if you play a game that lets you spectate squad mates you'll know this is true. Now, enhanced mobility kills off spawn camping, camping, snipers, basically anything easy. It allows highly skilled players to utterly dominate.
That shit doesn't matter go be an elitist somewhere else ADS had a proven change to bullet mechanics in the game
Assault rifles are barely use in game after a certain skill gap
I hope they ditch "enhanced" mobility. It didn't really seem to actually change anything for the better. The maps weren't really any more vertical, it was just that instead of having to jump or crouch jump up somewhere, you had to clamber up instead. Which took away your ability to move as freely as you can't go up places backward, or shoot and move as you go. Don't think it was a positive change for the series. As well as feeling more Halo with it IMO, it raises the skill ceiling and feeling of freedom of movement.
I don't have an opinion on ADS or movement abilities since I have never even played Halo 4 or 5, but I will say Overwatch functions just fine without ADS on all weapons/heroes. Yes, apples to oranges, completely different games, but its a highly popular FPS released in this climate.
I try to view the enhanced mobility criticism as objectively as I can because Halo's 2 and 3 are both some of my favorite games of all time, like I think DOOM 2016 had some cool things working in that game even if the MP was half baked.
But with nearly 15,000 MP games played on Halo 2 and 3, I don't know if Halo's mechanics are what drew me in, as much as it was it's robust social features that made me play those games for years.
I try to view the enhanced mobility criticism as objectively as I can because Halo's 2 and 3 are both some of my favorite games of all time, like I think DOOM 2016 had some cool things working in that game even if the MP was half baked.
But with nearly 15,000 MP games played on Halo 2 and 3, I don't know if Halo's mechanics are what drew me in, as much as it was it's robust social features that made me play those games for years.
I don't disagree. The change in visuals was blatantly an attempt to attract new fans.
I'd rather see a return to classic zoom visuals.
H5's version of zoom does have gameplay implications but it isn't ADS.
The actual gameplay changes due to H5's zoom effectively amounts to an increased effective range for autos. Which is exactly what zoom does for precision weapons. If you call H5's zoom ADS you might as well call classic zoom ADS for precision weapons - it makes the terms fairly useless.
When ADS is discussed it's almost in reference to the aiming style in games like CoD, ie:
- large spread in hip fire.
- tight spread when aiming.
- slow movement when aiming.
As I've said before, people only refer to H5's zoom as ADS because of the visual change. If it weren't for the visuals it would just be "zoom added to autos".
Referring to H5's scope mechanics as "ADS" makes the distinction between ADS and zoom pointless.
I hear what you're saying, which is why I typically ignore these semantics over ADS and would rather discuss specifics.
Do I want IRON SIGHTS on weapons? No.
Am I fine with zoom on autos? Yes.
Halo Infinite should be a full game based on everything that made Silent Cartographer fun. Sandboxy, physicsy, systemic non-linear exploration with pockets of combat encounters scattered around, on foot and with vehicles. Have a ton of fun systems that the player can mess around and experiment with in an open ended enviroment.
Halo was never better than that level.
Halo was never better than that level.
You're right, these discussions usually are just semantics and I agree with both your points. I'd rather have classic zoom too.
To be fair though, in this case the semantics are somewhat important because they're being used as an argument. H5's zoom is not an example of the game straying from the core Halo gameplay formula as the OP suggests. If anything I'd argue it's an example of exactly what the OP is asking for. It's an evolution of the sandbox, not a change in the core mechanics.
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