No longer a tech marvel or gameplay darling.
Now it's a shitty bag of watered down mechanics and poor performance.
It's a sad story, really.
Now it's a shitty bag of watered down mechanics and poor performance.
It's a sad story, really.
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Why did Final Fantasy lose a bit of its mane overall?
- Thread starter fireflame
- Start date
The Final Fantasy games of old (the first ten games in the series) include many of my favourite RPGs from that era. Games like FFIV, FFVI, FFVII, and FFIX are way above most of their contemporaries, in my opinion. There hasn't been a Final Fantasy since X that I consider one of the top ten games for the console it was originally released on. Moreover, I'd say that games like FFXV suck compared to the RPGs made by Square's competitors, as well as some of the RPGs made by Square (like Dragon Quest XI and Nier Automata). I've been disappointed by the series consistently starting with XII. Personally, I blame it on the old staff leaving Square or being promoted to positions that reduce their involvement on the games, and, more importantly, the new staff has not been able to fill the void.
JRPGs should have a good story and likeable characters. XIII had neither and XV had an utterly incomplete story. It's been over a decade since they've had that.
I still enjoyed my time with both but you can file them away under good but entirely forgettable. The tech showcase are good but far from making them system sellers like VII.
There have been far better options like Persona, Ni No Kuni, Suikoden, Dragon Quest, etc since the PS2 era.
I still enjoyed my time with both but you can file them away under good but entirely forgettable. The tech showcase are good but far from making them system sellers like VII.
There have been far better options like Persona, Ni No Kuni, Suikoden, Dragon Quest, etc since the PS2 era.
Add that you spend ten hours trying to stop a marriage in the name of love.
Long development times, and trying to always focus on breaking ground. Like how we seen with FF13-2 they can quite a ways if they just focus on making a well put game. Even if that means reusing some systems, with a bit of twist and turns.
X is where they went wrong imo. They started to focus on things that didn't work: mini-games, it became more and more linear, less traversal options, more melodrama. XII was a return to form for the most part, but that game felt incomplete. IX is the last of the classics in my mind.
I really want them to take what XI and XIV do and make more manageable single-player versions of that.
I really want them to take what XI and XIV do and make more manageable single-player versions of that.
Every time I see someone praising FFXV I have to wonder if that person played any of the PS1 games.
The only reason Final Fantasy still sells as much as it does because at one point Squaresoft was so above the rest of the industry it was ridiculous, and gave that brand a quality reputation (if not the entire company).
Since no other series has really replaced FF, it keeps selling on name alone. Hyping games for a decade helps, even if the end result is as bad as FFXV. And after a decade you just want to try the one even if it's not going to be as good as the PS1 titles. If they kept releasing semi-annual entries like in the past, they would not be selling as much as they do.
I don't think FF will ever truly come back. The most you can hope for is that they make something that it's more its own thing but uses the FF name, like XIV.
The only reason Final Fantasy still sells as much as it does because at one point Squaresoft was so above the rest of the industry it was ridiculous, and gave that brand a quality reputation (if not the entire company).
Since no other series has really replaced FF, it keeps selling on name alone. Hyping games for a decade helps, even if the end result is as bad as FFXV. And after a decade you just want to try the one even if it's not going to be as good as the PS1 titles. If they kept releasing semi-annual entries like in the past, they would not be selling as much as they do.
I don't think FF will ever truly come back. The most you can hope for is that they make something that it's more its own thing but uses the FF name, like XIV.
To be honest, there hasn't been a universally beloved Final Fantasy game since VII. Final Fantasy VIII wasn't particularly beloved. IX kind of went unnoticed. X got a similar divisive reaction as VIII. XI is the MMO that we don't talk about. XII was considered 'good' but not great. Opinions about XIII go without saying. XIV Original was a disaster, Realm Reborn is considered really good but we also don't talk about it much. XV probably has close to the same divisive reactions as VIII and X.
I understand where OP is coming from and I kinda feel similar (totally subjective).
As someone who played FFXV on release day it just feels like it could have been so much more.
The pacing was all over the place, the world was ultimately pretty small and for the most part everything looked pretty similar. The big road trip they talked about felt like a two hour drive with car problems in between.
Also not a big fan of the combat.
I really hope the rumors that Yoshida and part of the FFXIV crew are working on FFXVI and that they go back to high fantasy.
Bring the series back with a bang! (I know, it wasn't really gone :P)
/edit: Also, get the hell out of here with those FFXI drive bys... That game is amazing and 90% of the other FF games wished they were even half as good as FFXI.
As someone who played FFXV on release day it just feels like it could have been so much more.
The pacing was all over the place, the world was ultimately pretty small and for the most part everything looked pretty similar. The big road trip they talked about felt like a two hour drive with car problems in between.
Also not a big fan of the combat.
I really hope the rumors that Yoshida and part of the FFXIV crew are working on FFXVI and that they go back to high fantasy.
Bring the series back with a bang! (I know, it wasn't really gone :P)
/edit: Also, get the hell out of here with those FFXI drive bys... That game is amazing and 90% of the other FF games wished they were even half as good as FFXI.
Because it's been a very mixed bag after IX. FF X fucking sucked shit, XI was an online MMORPG, XII is great and one of my fave PS2 games, XIII fucking sucked shit again, XIV is another MMORPG and by the time XV rolled around I had long since stopped caring about the series.
XIII sucked and turned away the SNES and PS1 generation of fans who were happy to put the series into the nostalgia part of their fandom.
I have always wondered what FFX, FFXIII and Kingdom Hearts have in common. For some reason I absolutely hate the characters and art in all those three games (honestly though I never actually bothered to play the latter two). Battle system in FFX was great though.
FFXII was great but flawed, it just ended out of nowhere. I would have loved another 30-40 hours of story. Or at least something that tied all the loose ends together.
Anyone else felt that FFXV was kind of similar to FFXII in that it was on its way of becoming something amazing but fell short due to a lack of story content? It actually gave me hope that, given the right circumstances, FFXVI could be great.
FFXII was great but flawed, it just ended out of nowhere. I would have loved another 30-40 hours of story. Or at least something that tied all the loose ends together.
Anyone else felt that FFXV was kind of similar to FFXII in that it was on its way of becoming something amazing but fell short due to a lack of story content? It actually gave me hope that, given the right circumstances, FFXVI could be great.
Man, I've never heard this much hate for FFX before, but I stand by what I said earlier -- I don't think any FF game has been universally loved, and that comes from the nature of the series itself, changing from game to game.
In some respects though the first nine games seem to be less controversial, and part of that is probably from how relatively uniform they are. FF stuck with ATB from IV to IX. I wonder what the reaction would be if Square Enix made FFXVI basically like Dragon Quest XI but with ATB and Nomura character designs -- just go full old school. A handful of modern console JRPGs have proven it can be done -- DQXI, Ni No Kuni, etc.
But even then, at best I see the next major FF game selling as much as one of Ubisoft's big games that year or a Battlefield game or something. A game like FF can't stand head-and-shoulders above the rest of today's market. The PS1 FF's felt so big partially because they had less competition.
And if I'm gonna be really honest, JRPGs were never really THAT important to the western console market. It was just Final Fantasy. Everything outside FF in the west on consoles has been selling about the same since the SNES era, except maybe MegaTen games.
Real talk: FFXIII has one of the better soundtracks in the series.
Basically, the name can still sell, Square has not yet proven it can produce and ship an HD numbered FF game without running into problems that take years to get through. Honestly that might apply to just HD games in general if we're talking about the FF and Kingdom Hearts studios.
In some respects though the first nine games seem to be less controversial, and part of that is probably from how relatively uniform they are. FF stuck with ATB from IV to IX. I wonder what the reaction would be if Square Enix made FFXVI basically like Dragon Quest XI but with ATB and Nomura character designs -- just go full old school. A handful of modern console JRPGs have proven it can be done -- DQXI, Ni No Kuni, etc.
But even then, at best I see the next major FF game selling as much as one of Ubisoft's big games that year or a Battlefield game or something. A game like FF can't stand head-and-shoulders above the rest of today's market. The PS1 FF's felt so big partially because they had less competition.
And if I'm gonna be really honest, JRPGs were never really THAT important to the western console market. It was just Final Fantasy. Everything outside FF in the west on consoles has been selling about the same since the SNES era, except maybe MegaTen games.
Real talk: FFXIII has one of the better soundtracks in the series.
Basically, the name can still sell, Square has not yet proven it can produce and ship an HD numbered FF game without running into problems that take years to get through. Honestly that might apply to just HD games in general if we're talking about the FF and Kingdom Hearts studios.
People still go back and play FFVII, VIII and IX. I have. They not only hold up, they are better games than most RPGs today and certainly better games than FFXV.
Better story, better characters, better and more deep battle mechanics (materia and GF systems better than anything in ffxv), more varied locations, more mini games, more *meaningful* side quests rather than time padding MMO nonsense, more people to talk to, more world building.
These aren't rose tinted glasses. The games were just far better made. More content, more meaningful content and better content. Better and more coherent style and story telling. They are holistically good games.
Nonsense. People disliked it for perfectly valid reasons. Poor story telling, unfinished game, shallow combat, piecemeal DLC side stories for the party members, MMO fetch/rat killing side quests, empty and boring open world, having to watch a sold separately movie to actually get background and context to the game etc etc
Trying to hand wave all these perfectly valid criticisms of FFXV as "people don't like it because it is different" is very intellectually dishonest.
FFXV is a very poor RPG. And, quite opposite to your argument, if you took the FF name away from it I'm fairly certain it would have been utterly trashed by everyone. Imagine some no-name RPG released a completely unfinished game, with an awfully told story, gated all the personal stories of the party members behind DLC, completely empty and dead open world and filled it with time padding MMO fetch quests and had a brain-dead shallow combat system. Nobody would give it the pass FFXV got because it was FF and had been in development hell for like 10 years so people were just happy to see it exist. It would have, rightfully, gotten 6-7/10 across the board which is what it deserves.
It absolutely does not stand up to the legacy of FF outside of flashy visuals. Anything else, of substance or depth, is mediocre at best. Mediocre open world. Mediocre story told awfully. Mediocre battle system. Mediocre side quests. Released incomplete and charging for character side stories.
I played Xenoblade chronicles 2 after FFXV, and while I was not a fan of the art style or the fan service the actual game itself was a masterpiece especially in comparison to the dumpster fire that was FFXV. It had an amazing story, an interesting world, deep and fun battle system, great characters and best of all the DLC was basically an entire other game and it didn't feel like I was being sold bits of the game I already paid for.
It had a worse art style and graphics than FFXV, but everything outside of visuals puts FFXV to absolute shame.
I'm thinking the same. However we've got no clue about how long we'll have to wait for this episode since we're now stuck on VIIR for a while and SE considers it as the new main line entry and I can see it running for the majority of PS5's life. I fear it's going to be a long road.
Hearing this actually makes me pretty worried about the future actually! The lackluster endings of 12 and onward, that feeling of underwhelming incompleteness, of mysteries untold seem like taunts to buy follow up material. That attitude was super pervasive in XV's design and even if I was enjoying the game alright beforehand, a disappointing ending colors my entire impression of the game.
... I never did finish XV though I hear it had a decent ending, the game lost me far before that point. The decent sales of FFXV and related media only make it feel like this incomplete storytelling method will be the way forward rather than a mistake to be learned from.
I enjoyed 15. Is it the height of 7 when we were young and the IP had its big western coming out, no. But it's changed and I don't know honestly how they'd keep it satisfying all. Even if they kept the exact late 90s formula, they'd hit a wall eventually like Zelda did and need a BOTW style reboot of what you expect from their games
See my post. Nobody says FFXV is bad because it is "different". They say it is bad because it has a bad story, shallow combat, empty open world, gated character back stories, boring MMO time padding side quests, requires a prequel movie to actually have context, was released in a completely unfinished state etc etc
These are all perfectly valid criticisms that have *nothing* to do with "oh but people don't like it just because it is different". Which is, in most cases it is used, an untrue way of dismissing criticism by straw man.
And, again, see my post if you're making the argument "they have no other option but to release a mediocre dumpster fire like FFXV". Xenoblade Chronicles 2, outside of visuals and art style, puts FFXV to absolute shame in every other aspect of the game and is a modern open world JRPG.
Funny thing is that between Fire Emblem, Persona, Xenoblade etc we're in a bit of a JRPG renaissance. FF isn't up with the big boys in terms of quality with FFXV, not even close.
I think SE are just chasing the more casual crowd and this is putting off the people who have stuck with them since the start with the older FF games.
Thing is I didn't like FFXV much but it didn't matter in the end as it sold and appealed to the casual audience but that alienated their fans too. They are chasing the me too open world game genre and theirs was nothing special and just boring. Through good marketing and other things they seemed to have made a success out of it. Most people didn't care and just took it for face value.
To have the property stay relevant and sell maybe they had to do this though? Blame it on the more casual audience of today.
Thing is I didn't like FFXV much but it didn't matter in the end as it sold and appealed to the casual audience but that alienated their fans too. They are chasing the me too open world game genre and theirs was nothing special and just boring. Through good marketing and other things they seemed to have made a success out of it. Most people didn't care and just took it for face value.
To have the property stay relevant and sell maybe they had to do this though? Blame it on the more casual audience of today.
FFXI was the start of the shift of general perception, from what I've seen.
10 - A legendary launch title to the PS2; first time it had voice acting; a brand new look; etc etc. Sure it was a bit linear, sure we missed the world map, but that story! The music!
11 - Why...is it online? That sounds like it could be amazing, but..why? Where's the story? Who are the main characters? It's great, to be sure, but it only feels like it's inspired by FF. There's a lot to do, and it sure is unique, but there's WoW around now too...
12 - An epic tale, a return to form, full of vivid characters. a vibrant world, open and explorable...but those gambits sure are polarzing, that story is fantasy star wars - who is the main character again? This battle system seems a little detached....
And then we wasted 3 whole games on 13, 14 was a disaster at launch, 15 had a ton of development baggage and came out when contemporaries were starting to be as epic and as pretty...
10 - A legendary launch title to the PS2; first time it had voice acting; a brand new look; etc etc. Sure it was a bit linear, sure we missed the world map, but that story! The music!
11 - Why...is it online? That sounds like it could be amazing, but..why? Where's the story? Who are the main characters? It's great, to be sure, but it only feels like it's inspired by FF. There's a lot to do, and it sure is unique, but there's WoW around now too...
12 - An epic tale, a return to form, full of vivid characters. a vibrant world, open and explorable...but those gambits sure are polarzing, that story is fantasy star wars - who is the main character again? This battle system seems a little detached....
And then we wasted 3 whole games on 13, 14 was a disaster at launch, 15 had a ton of development baggage and came out when contemporaries were starting to be as epic and as pretty...
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Not to mention voice acting is just so much more resource intensive. They have to allocate budget for it, whereas before it could go into improving other areas.
I don't know OP. I'm having a blast right now playing FFXIV's Stormblood main story. It's amazing. And also it has a hugely fun Gold Saucer included in the package (with the Triple Triad game from FFVIII and other stuff).
Yes, it is an online game, but the main story is easily enjoyable in single player (well, there are dungeons and raids for more people but the matchmaking works wonders).
But yeah, if you are talking about the single-player traditional FF, looking at FFXIII and FFXV I think I agree with you.
Yes, it is an online game, but the main story is easily enjoyable in single player (well, there are dungeons and raids for more people but the matchmaking works wonders).
But yeah, if you are talking about the single-player traditional FF, looking at FFXIII and FFXV I think I agree with you.
We don't do this any more. I get discounting FFXI since it's a strange and gangly beast, but ignoring FFXIV in threads like these is based on the misconception that's it's an online game and not a single player game with online features. If we're talking main quest, you're by yourself 80% of the time, if not more. Even if it were an online game, discarding FFXIV from any conversation about the direction or the reputation of the series as a whole is disingenuous and unrepresentative.
Like with many who dislike FFX in here, you can not like FFXIV, but it has ruffled the mane of the series and brightened its aura significantly over the last few years so that, as far as I'm concerned, the Final Fantasy series is on the ascendant again, and FFVIIR will capitalise and contribute to that.
I guess if there is (or was) any problem, I'd say it's that letting every game to be super different from each other while simultaneously having very high production values results in solid, at least somewhat interesting games, but with what it takes to make a game these days it's an approach that also made it really difficult to maintain and/or improve consistency and consensus.
I would say they've recognized and adjusted to that to some extent though. A big part of FFXIV's appeal is that in many ways it uses past games as a foundation, and FFVII reduces some of the engine development work that's been slowing them down for years and while splitting up the story is sort of ambitious, they'll have assets and mechanics that can and likely will be reused in subsequent parts, so they can more easily refine things over time and generally speed up production. Should be interesting to see how this kind of thinking will be applied to FFXVI.
I would say they've recognized and adjusted to that to some extent though. A big part of FFXIV's appeal is that in many ways it uses past games as a foundation, and FFVII reduces some of the engine development work that's been slowing them down for years and while splitting up the story is sort of ambitious, they'll have assets and mechanics that can and likely will be reused in subsequent parts, so they can more easily refine things over time and generally speed up production. Should be interesting to see how this kind of thinking will be applied to FFXVI.
There is some crazy hot takes in here. Things like FFXI and FFXIV don't count because they are MMOs, some crazy revisionist history, and just straight up thrashing of some games.
If you played from the beginning, none of the FFs have anything in common. They are all isolated, from their story tone, battle systems, even musical themes. Is FF going down a hill because they didn't clone FF7 or FF9 ad infinitum or because FFXI and FFXIV are online? No, FF has its staples, the job/class theme, the monsters and usually some rock they call a crystal.
Just because 1 or 2 games resonate with others more than the other games doesn't mean it's doomed. FF has always been about experimenting and trying new things. If you want a series that keeps stuff the same, do yourself a favor, just drop FF and go play DQ or something.
To me, even though personally, I didn't like things like FFII, FFIII, FFIX and FFXV, does it make those games any less of an FF? Even with FFII's strange leveling system, the shallow characters of FFV, the oversimplification of FFIX, the quasi-MMO like battle system of FFXII where you lose direct control of your allies. All those are very much FF. FF isn't just a single director game series anymore, and even when Sakaguchi was there they all varied greatly as well. You see it in any and every FF thread, there are fans of any of the games be it VIII, XII, XIII or even XV.
If you played from the beginning, none of the FFs have anything in common. They are all isolated, from their story tone, battle systems, even musical themes. Is FF going down a hill because they didn't clone FF7 or FF9 ad infinitum or because FFXI and FFXIV are online? No, FF has its staples, the job/class theme, the monsters and usually some rock they call a crystal.
Just because 1 or 2 games resonate with others more than the other games doesn't mean it's doomed. FF has always been about experimenting and trying new things. If you want a series that keeps stuff the same, do yourself a favor, just drop FF and go play DQ or something.
To me, even though personally, I didn't like things like FFII, FFIII, FFIX and FFXV, does it make those games any less of an FF? Even with FFII's strange leveling system, the shallow characters of FFV, the oversimplification of FFIX, the quasi-MMO like battle system of FFXII where you lose direct control of your allies. All those are very much FF. FF isn't just a single director game series anymore, and even when Sakaguchi was there they all varied greatly as well. You see it in any and every FF thread, there are fans of any of the games be it VIII, XII, XIII or even XV.
Personally, my disdain for FFXIII has meant I had zero interest in any FF since.
So that's when it killed it for me. Not that I play a lot of them nowadays, but I'm good for about one meaty JRPG year and haven't even considered FFXV.
So that's when it killed it for me. Not that I play a lot of them nowadays, but I'm good for about one meaty JRPG year and haven't even considered FFXV.
But they did have an overall vision and quality that was common between the good ones, and is lacking in FFXV.
I mean, the game was released in an incomplete beta state. It charges you for the character side stories. A lot of important plot and context of the game was sold separately as a movie. The open world is empty. The side quests are almost entirely MMO tier fetch and rat killing quests used to pad out the game with basically meaningless and contentless content (a pet peeve of mine in modern game design).
None of these criticisms are "well it's a matter of taste", an awful argument that keeps getting brought up again and again in this thread. It's a straw man.
There are objective and definite failings of FFXV that aren't subjective at all. The quality and quantity of the content in the game, especially at launch, falls far below the standard of FF historically. It is lots of mediocre content with a shiny coat of paint and released in a beta state with lots of things that were traditionally an intrinsic part of FF like character stories being sold back to us as DLC.
And if any other franchise released such an incomplete game, with such ridiculous DLC it would be absolutely torn apart and rightfully so. Imagine the new Dragon Age game released like that - unfinished and you had to buy DLC to get the character stories of your party members. There would be uproar. SE shouldn't get a pass.
Just gone done playing FFXIII tonight on the X with the upgrades. It's still a cool unique game even if it has limitations with exploration. I love the spectacle of a good FF game.
Nah, we just call that Bethesda, they magically print those passes somehow. Almost all the points you just made, Bethesda revels in it. But we're here to talk FF.
As for actually replying to you, while I too, dislike FFXV, to say it shipped incomplete might be a stretch. The game would literally have to be missing a chapter or be more incoherent than what we got. Would FFXV be better if it had the prologue that was used for the movie, or would it be better if the character stories were added in? Sure, but it's not like the game couldn't be played and understood without those. All that extra stuff was S-E poor attempts to monetize the game.
It's like equating The Witcher 3 is incomplete because blood and wine wasn't there at the start.
FF used to be a series with an extremely long story for games at the time, an expansive world with various side quests, and a battle system that keeps the boss fights engaging until the end.
Nowadays any action rpg can shoot for similar lengths, it can have a bigger world with even more to do and the gameplay can be largely engaging across the entire game rather than just the bosses. There was a time when a JRPG was a way to do a certain type of game you couldnt make otherwise. Now it's just more a way to slow it down instead
Nowadays any action rpg can shoot for similar lengths, it can have a bigger world with even more to do and the gameplay can be largely engaging across the entire game rather than just the bosses. There was a time when a JRPG was a way to do a certain type of game you couldnt make otherwise. Now it's just more a way to slow it down instead
13 was trash
14 was trash first, then recovered. It's fantastic now but it's just not the same because it's an MMORPG.
15 is one hell of a mess of a multimedia-project that still feels unfinished and janky as fuck.
Then we had a shit ton of remakes, ports, mobile games and spin offs, with some really good games among them. But it still feels like VII - X are the best of the franchise and that the whole series is kinda stuck in the past. Square Enix even doubles down on that because the next big thing in the franchise is... A remake.
14 was trash first, then recovered. It's fantastic now but it's just not the same because it's an MMORPG.
15 is one hell of a mess of a multimedia-project that still feels unfinished and janky as fuck.
Then we had a shit ton of remakes, ports, mobile games and spin offs, with some really good games among them. But it still feels like VII - X are the best of the franchise and that the whole series is kinda stuck in the past. Square Enix even doubles down on that because the next big thing in the franchise is... A remake.
Very true. This can usually be noticed in games where quests or events have been added late in development and have no VA, or generic VA like "I have a job for you!", followed by text boxes. This can really unfurl a games atmosphere for me.
To me it feels like they try WAY too hard to make it "cool" by making what they think are cool, stylish characters that will appeal to everyone surrounded by complicated stories that are too complicated for their own good. It all just comes off as cheesy tryhard stuff that can't be taken seriously. It has no heart and soul.
