Regardless of likelihood, if they were to make a future Link (past BotW and sequel) non-binary couldn't you just headcanon that one to be male.
Regardless of likelihood, if they were to make a future Link (past BotW and sequel) non-binary couldn't you just headcanon that one to be male.
That's cool. I wouldn't want to see BotW Link changed with the sequel but I think Link is interesting in that it's different heroes of time and different Links. Which gives a little more scope to the possibility in a future title and why I don't think it's necessarily as hard-line as 'can't change established characters'.If they say that Link is a non binary human ( and I'm not very sure what that even means ) so be it, if not, then I see him as a dude, plenty simple.
Link is an established character, he's a white male in all of the games. Having a 'Link creator' where you can change these makes no sense.the Zelda series is a prime candidate for having a pretty in depth character creator for Link tbh. the Lore allows for it, theres nothing to say that he has to be a white, human male. Imagine a character creator where you have gender on a slider instead of a binary option, the ability to choose between the races of hyrule as well as variants such as skin color, then being able to choose hair color, facial structure. you could enforce certain styles to make it still look like a "Link" e.g pointed ears and clothing.
it would be quite a departure for nintendo and they would never do it but its something id quite like to see tbh.
Ah yes, because something already exists, it should not change.Link is an established character, he's a white male in all of the games. Having a 'Link creator' where you can change these makes no sense.
It shouldn't change if it has been defined and established, no. It would be like giving you a Lara Croft creator and letting you change Lara into a black male. Or a new Harry Potter book coming out where suddenly he was a girl. It's ridiculous.Ah yes, because something already exists, it should not change.
Things Link Can Be:It shouldn't change if it has been defined and established, no. It would be like giving you a Lara Croft creator and letting you change Lara into a black male. Or a new Harry Potter book coming out where suddenly he was a girl. It's ridiculous.
Things Link Can Be:
- a child
- a teenager
- blond-haired
- brown-haired
- pink haired
- split into four colour-coded versions of himself
- partners with two other seemingly-indentical but also colour-coded Links
- a train conductor
- a rabbit
- a wolf
- a fish-man
- a rock-man
- a god
- an octorok
- a moblin
- a ghost inhabiting a suit of armour that teaches his future incarnation skills
- partners with an alternate-timeline wolf version of himself
Things Link Can Never Be:
- a woman
- non-binary
Having a future Link be non-binary isn't close to making Lara Croft a black male. What are you even on about?It shouldn't change if it has been defined and established, no. It would be like giving you a Lara Croft creator and letting you change Lara into a black male. Or a new Harry Potter book coming out where suddenly he was a girl. It's ridiculous.
Lol this.Ah, so we're at the point in the thread in which different ages, hair colors and transformations are equated to gender
Hodgy talked about having a Link creator because 'theres nothing to say that he has to be a white, human male'. It is quite clear that Link is a white male as that is how he traditionally appears in ALL Zelda games.Having a future Link be non-binary isn't close to making Lara Croft a black male. What are you even on about?
Each Link is different, so I'm not understanding how a future iteration being non-binary (or anything honestly) is akin to making Lara Croft a black male.Hodgy talked about having a Link creator because 'theres nothing to say that he has to be a white, human male'. It is quite clear that Link is a white male as that is how he traditionally appears in ALL Zelda games.
i am going to say this as lightly as possible but what kind of game do you think zelda is? there will never be a scene where he sits down with zelda and impa to come out like that. that isnt the type of storytelling done in these gamesHere's Aonuma's quote regarding this
So yeah, why is Link still locked onto one side of the binary if he's meant to be BETWEEN male and female? I'd appreciate some sort of "coming out as nonbinary" story beat in BOTW2, come to think of it.
Here's Aonuma's quote regarding this
So yeah, why is Link still locked onto one side of the binary if he's meant to be BETWEEN male and female? I'd appreciate some sort of "coming out as nonbinary" story beat in BOTW2, come to think of it.
It shouldn't change if it has been defined and established, no. It would be like giving you a Lara Croft creator and letting you change Lara into a black male. Or a new Harry Potter book coming out where suddenly he was a girl. It's ridiculous.
Link reincarnates, those characters don't. I'd agree if people wanted to change, say, Ocarina of Time era Link, but there is literally nothing stopping the next Zelda game from having a non-binary or female Link.
The arguments against it honestly make me think of the contingent of fans who were deadset against a female Doctor Who and then it happened and no one really minded because the core of the character remained the same.
The arguments against it honestly make me think of the contingent of fans who were deadset against a female Doctor Who and then it happened and no one really minded because the core of the character remained the same.
You're not wrong, but now we have Link without the green tunic, able to wear an abundance of outfits including women's clothes.Meanwhile people in Zelda threads keep being disingenuous by acting like Link hasn't always had a fairly set look aside from minor age/hair color variations. Hell, removing his green tunic in BOTW was touted as a "major" change that they had to think over. The same goes for Zelda.
You're not wrong, but now we have Link without the green tunic, able to wear an abundance of outfits including women's clothes.
So I'm not sure why we're constantly appealing to the past when it's clear with BotW they're more willing to draw outside of the lines when it comes to what 'Link' looks like.
Sure you can still recognise the character as Link in the game, but then I don't think any of those traits contradict having a non-binary Link.
You use they/them pronouns and have it be normal for the next iteration of Link. What's the issue in having that for the next iteration after BotW?How would it even be expressed in-game, though? Link doesn't have a distinct personality and doesn't speak. If Link can already dress in women's clothing with no ill effects, what's the difference?
I think the point was that even such a minor thing like clothing took ages and had probably very long internal discussion about it. And when you have that in mind, requests like in the OP about gender identitiy are just not something a company will decide on in any timeframe that is expected by some folks here. I think the women's clothes is a clear sign that Nintendo is willing to adapt to progressive ideas, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will make any change or that these changes will happen over night.You're not wrong, but now we have Link without the green tunic, able to wear an abundance of outfits including women's clothes.
So I'm not sure why we're constantly appealing to the past when it's clear with BotW they're more willing to draw outside of the lines when it comes to what 'Link' looks like.
Sure you can still recognise the character as Link in the game, but then I don't think any of those remaining traits contradict having a non-binary Link in a future iteration.
Who is asking for this change overnight?I think the point was that even such a minor thing like clothing took ages and had probably very long internal discussion about it. And when you have that in mind, requests like in the OP about gender identitiy are just not something a company will decide on in any timeframe that is expected by some folks here. I think the women's clothes is a clear sign that Nintendo is willing to adapt to prgoressive ideas, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will make any change or that these changes will happen over night.
This is so bizarre. Like we should only discuss the elements that they've changed currently, instead of taking that new progressive attitude and discussing what might be possible with it down the line.Changing clothes isn't the same as changing the pronouns a character uses.
Literally one post above mine you say: "You use they/them pronouns and have it be normal for the next iteration of Link. What's the issue in having that for the next iteration after BotW?"Who is asking for this change overnight?
What are you even saying lol. "Won't happen in the next game" - of course not. I don't see why that should dismiss and curtail any discussion about where we might like to see the character go now that it's clear they're open to being more creative with Link.
why is this worthy of a "yuck"?
How is me saying that I don't see an issue with it being possible in the next iteration mean I think it's likely or expect it to happen in the next iteration?Literally one post above mine you say: "You use they/them pronouns and have it be normal for the next iteration of Link. What's the issue in having that for the next iteration after BotW?"
So do you expect and want it for the next game now or not? I already said I don't mind people striving for progressive change, if you wouldn't strive for it it would never happen after all, but asking Nintendo to make Link a genderqueer character when they took decades to make Zelda not a damsel and even more decades to make Link wear women's clothes then that's just unrealistic for me at this point in time.
Things Link Can Be:
- a child
- a teenager
- blond-haired
- brown-haired
- pink haired
- split into four colour-coded versions of himself
- partners with two other seemingly-indentical but also colour-coded Links
- a train conductor
- a rabbit
- a wolf
- a fish-man
- a rock-man
- a god
- an octorok
- a moblin
- a ghost inhabiting a suit of armour that teaches his future incarnation skills
- partners with an alternate-timeline wolf version of himself
Things Link Can Never Be:
- a woman
- non-binary
-Not white
You use they/them pronouns and have it be normal for the next iteration of Link. What's the issue in having that for the next iteration after BotW?
I'm genuinely not sure how you can't see the difference between having characters that are non-binary in things and just "pretend in your head". Come on.
Goes past the fact that we're relating "wears women's clothes" to being all that non-binary is for some reason, when it has nothing to do with it. The point was a response to the "Link has a very rigid image" section.
I'm 100% okay with them not even giving Link a gender. I think going out of their way to make a "coming out" story for Link is kind of ridiculous though.Here's Aonuma's quote regarding this
So yeah, why is Link still locked onto one side of the binary if he's meant to be BETWEEN male and female? I'd appreciate some sort of "coming out as nonbinary" story beat in BOTW2, come to think of it.
I'm not stamping on anything. I'm saying that when OP likes to see a coming out as non-binary story for Link in the BotW sequel they are just setting themselves up for disappointment, because it's too much too soon, especially for a company like Nintendo.This is so bizarre. Like we should only discuss the elements that they've changed currently, instead of taking that new progressive attitude and discussing what might be possible with it down the line.
Link is more outside the lines than the character has ever been. Let people explore where that could lead without feeling the need to stamp on it because it might not happen soon or at all.
Maybe I just mixed up OP's wording with yours then, sorry for that. I just think it's not possible for the next iteration, at all. This is a very slow company we are talking about here. If we are lucky we get a sidequests that makes a tounge in cheek about Link's possible gender identity and that's it. Certainly not what OP is proposing.How is me saying that I don't see an issue with it being possible in the next iteration mean I think it's likely or expect it to happen in the next iteration?
I still think that Link/the Zelda IP in general isn't really the most natural place to look for non-binary representation. And if it happens at all, it sounds more like it'd be about a side character you gotta help, not the main character, who honestly gets little depth in general.
If anyone disagrees, I'd be very curious to read a "what if" scenario that outlines how you think the devs could incorporate Links non-binary-ness into a new game.
Also, this topic got me thinking: What series do you think would work well/better/perfectly with a non-binary protagonist?
I personally think it shouldn't be anything with a character creator. Making the choice for the character seems much less meaningful than having a pre-set main character who just is that way, regardless of what the player does or chooses.
If he doesn't have a character then what's the issue with the change?I suppose the issue for me is simply that I don't see Link as a character. Like I said, if Link actually had a personality or a mind or thoughts or feelings it would be one thing, but he just...doesn't.
You have the video game use they/them pronouns because it's a video game. If being male doesn't require any additional concern in this fictional world I don't see why being non-binary would.This isn't a character with an identity that they can claim or champion or wrestle with or try to explore, which is why I find it hard for the concept of non-binary gender to be expressed around him. Is every NPC in the game world supposed to intuitively know what pronouns this dead-eyed stabbing robot prefers? Or are we thinking Hyrulian society should evolve past the concept of binary gender on a general level to the point at which everyone is nonbinary and everyone uses non-binary pronouns? That would certainly be a way to tackle the situation, though I don't think Nintendo will ever be progressive enough to try it.
It's not hard, people seem so adamant that Link is dead-set male that obviously you don't need all of that to communicate gender. If it was just a pronoun then what's the issue for a future version, but obviously people are taking more from Link than that.Like I said before, if Link was an actual character this wouldn't even be a discussion. Go for it! My issue lies solely in the fact that it's hard to communicate something like that when the character has no agency or identity of their own.
Fair, completely get where we got tied.I'm not stamping on anything. I'm saying that when OP likes to see a coming out as non-binary story for Link in the BotW sequel they are just setting themselves up for disappointment, because it's too much too soon, especially for a company like Nintendo.
Maybe I just mixed up OP's wording with yours then, sorry for that. I just think it's not possible for the next iteration, at all. This is a very slow company we are talking about here. If we are lucky we get a sidequests that makes a tounge in cheek about Link's possible gender identity and that's it. Certainly not what OP is proposing.
I think that Zelda games do have the kind of lore depth that could make non-binary characters feel like a normal part of the world. Side stuff, especially stuff not explicitly spelled out, can be quite mature, deep, and dark. There's room for many things that have never been there.Nintendo makes mostly kid games because their writing is normally pretty shallow. It would require a completely different type of game for that type of quest/story to be handled as well as people on this forum would want of it.
Like mentioned before, that doesn't work in languages like Spanish or German. That'd be an issue.You have the video game use they/them pronouns because it's a video game. If being male doesn't require any additional concern in this fictional world I don't see why being non-binary would.
Could you come up with an example? I don't need anything perfect and I'm not trying to set up some kind of "Ah! So you don't have the solution" moment, but I genuinely can't imagine what those ways, in the context of a Zelda game, would look like. Link not really talking seems to be a huge hindrance.I don't think a large story beat would fit, but there are other ways of having a character be non-binary and I don't see why it requires all the additional hand-wringing when it comes to how that would be in game. It could be subtle but concrete and be just as rewarding to players.
If he doesn't have a character then what's the issue with the change?
You have the video game use they/them pronouns because it's a video game. If being male doesn't require any additional concern in this fictional world I don't see why being non-binary would.
Again, come on.
It's not hard, people seem to adamant that Link is dead-set male that obviously you don't need all of that to communicate gender.
The amount of reaching you're doing to explain how having they/them pronouns in the game instead of he/him would be a concern or issue is incredible.
No disagreement there from me. I think for them being as conservative as they are, they made good steps in terms of representation this gen. Twintelle and Urbosa were some of the best designs they put out in a while. Looking forward to how far it will go in the future.Fair, completely get where we got tied.
I don't think a large story beat would fit, but there are other ways of having a character be non-binary and I don't see why it requires all the additional hand-wringing when it comes to how that would be in game. It could be subtle but concrete and be just as rewarding to players.
Certainly nothing I expect to see soon if at all, but I think it's certainly in scope for a future iteration of him to be NB and would be happy if it ever came to pass.
Yeah, Nintendo wont do this with Link, and I really hope I'm right here. I don't mind Link being a female or leaving his gender up to the player, but I do like having an established character for the game rather than creating one. It's more iconic and allows the character to stand out more. Character creators are usually terrible in my opinion.the Zelda series is a prime candidate for having a pretty in depth character creator for Link tbh. the Lore allows for it, theres nothing to say that he has to be a white, human male. Imagine a character creator where you have gender on a slider instead of a binary option, the ability to choose between the races of hyrule as well as variants such as skin color, then being able to choose hair color, facial structure. you could enforce certain styles to make it still look like a "Link" e.g pointed ears and clothing.
it would be quite a departure for nintendo and they would never do it but its something id quite like to see tbh.
This is interesting, but seems predominantly a localisation issue? Non-binary people exist within Spain and Germany so what do they use? Genuinely curious as I like languages (can get by in the latter) and know that others aren't even gendered at all. Not suggesting it's not an issue, as it's a valid one to raise. Just interested in knowing how it's resolved outside of games by the communities in those countries.Like mentioned before, that doesn't work in languages like Spanish or German. That'd be an issue.
Have the character referred to by a gender neutral pronoun or term was my suggestion which we're resolving above. An NPC could have a well constructed line in the general Hyrule tone about Link if you're disguised at the time - won't venture into the wording now but there are ways short of forcing Link into having a deep and compelling story with a hundred pages of script.Could you come up with an example? I don't need anything perfect and I'm not trying to set up some kind of "Ah! So you don't have the solution" moment, but I genuinely can't imagine what those ways, in the context of a Zelda game, would look like. Link not really talking seems to be a huge hindrance.