I've worked with all of those "external assets" directly in game studios, internally. And even if they're external, they're still helping develop a game.
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Who is a game developer, what is game development?
- Thread starter Alek
- Start date
We have gym trainers on campus at our game company. Are they considered game developers now?
Why's this such a serious indication?
(Not comparing people working in the Gym to anyone else on the game-studio staff)
"Developer" is unmistakably tied to programming in the production of pretty much any other piece of software. I don't see why games should be any different.
EDIT: Let me put it another way. If you say you're a web developer, a mobile app developer, a Windows developer, an emulator developer... What do you think literally anyone is going to think you do?
You misunderstood what I wrote.
"I would say anybody who does anything related to creation of code or in-game assets is a game developer."
They're part of the game development process/team, so technically. I guess it's like asking if editors and writers are filmmakers even though that title usually falls on the director. In this case the title of developer usually gets put on the designers or programmers, or the entirety of the studio.
What's the term for "person who works on video games"? Usually it falls under "video game developer", regardless of their role. Programmers know this well enough to call themselves programmers or engineers.
There isn't a term for "person who works on websites" beyond web developer and yet only programmers call themselves web developers as far as I've seen.
Logged in just to say that I consider QA/QC game developers. We're all in this fight together and we rely on one another in order to ship a game.
I'm a Level Designer and I've considered myself a "Game Developer" even before that, when I was an Embedded Development Tester.
Ah, I hadn't followed the trail back. I would expand it to include producers and QA, since they're directly involved in the development process.
Actually, I guess we already agree because producers need to schedule the work and QA tests it. So they're already doing things related.
And yet most in these thread would include game artists as developers and they won't all code. Most are already including in the definition people who don't code, so your definition seems remarkably tight and something that's definitely not used in the game industry.
lol.
That made me laugh.
I like the first definition given. It is good to see lots of differing opinions.
I don't work on games, but I am a software developer. QA, product people (BAs, managers, etc), the product doesn't exist without them.
Same applies here.
Same applies here.
Your definition seems quite specific, which is fine, but I would like to know how you defined this.
From your description many, many functions of a 'game' developing are not included as a developer task or role e. g. without engine coders a modern game would not exist at all. Same for HLSL or DX developers across most platforms.
I would define that anyones work that is directly contributing to a games inception, design, form and deliver IS a game developer. I. E. A level designer or game director is a game dev. A hardware engineer or operating system developer is not.
Find me a game dev Meetup event that excludes artists or QA... Or really any role involved in game development.
I don't think anyone who says non-programming roles aren't "game developers" literally means "they can't be considered to work on games" or "they are not necessary to the process", just that the word "developer" and "programmer" is pretty much interchangeable in almost everyone's mind when talking about software production.
Like, is everyone who works in a movie a "movie producer"? I mean, they "produce movies", don't they? They're part of the "movie production process"? That it's technically true doesn't mean people don't think specifically about the producer role itself when you say it.
Like, is everyone who works in a movie a "movie producer"? I mean, they "produce movies", don't they? They're part of the "movie production process"? That it's technically true doesn't mean people don't think specifically about the producer role itself when you say it.
It depends on what your QA does. Like the person above who works for DICE who talks about handing off integration tasks to the QA team, who is making a distinction between user experience analysis from their in-house QA job title? That totally falls under my personal definition for "game developer." It really depends on the job and the person and what they contribute to the individual project, not so much the position.
Similar to how I'd say the programmer working on OpenGL drivers isn't a game developer, despite being a programmer. It really depends on how and what they contribute to the project. I guess I just prefer a narrow scope.
Well I mean, for the last few months of development QA essentially dictates what work there is left to do. I think they're completely indispensable and essential to successfully completing the development of a game.
But most (might actually be all apart from you) game developers in this thread do include non-coding roles, they may not all agree on what that list includes, but they do all include roles that don't code of some kind - it's you that's using a different definition compared to those in the industry and I'd say the lay-person too.
Compared to those in ERA? Perhaps, but this place isn't representative of the wider industry, neither from a consumer nor from a producer point of view, in the slightest.
But I won't pretend like my evidence is anything other than anectodal, either.
This is 100% the case.
I've fought for my position, I've fought for my position to be recognized, I've worked closly with nearly every department to build bridges and foster a great working environment. To say someone isn't a part of that because you don't feel their position is in that, is demoralizing and diminishing the position that I fought to be respected in.
They are clearly Janitors...and over worked I would say at present
Considering your evidence seems to be you mostly talking about other industries like web development, I'd take it with a grain of salt.
Moby Games lists me as a developer, so I guess I'm one...
But as QA I can't really say I ever think about myself as a developer.
But as QA I can't really say I ever think about myself as a developer.
Going back to Jason's point, I think that while SOME people may have a sense of elitism or attempt to gatekeep with the game dev label, I wouldn't necessarily say it's the primary reason why this discussion is interesting. For example, like Chronospherics mentioned - I work in comms and I don't think I would consider myself a game developer - even though I'm credited - but I would consider myself part of the industry. It's probably more to do with how folks view themselves - some feel strongly about the "I'm a game dev" which can lead to gatekeeping, but like anything related to identity - it's trickier than just saying we're all the same.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're gonna meet insurmountable resistance to change this attitude since it wasn't conscious to begin with. It just kinda happened. I honestly don't think there's any sort of concerted effort to try and not consider people like you part of the development process in casual lingo.
I'd be surprised to find more than a handful of people who actually genuinelly think you aren't a crucial part of the process of making a videogame, instead of, as I said, mere interchangeability of the words "developer" and "programmer" (but not of the concepts behind them).
My experience with the videogame industry in particular is very limited compared to other industries, yeah, but I've said as much from the beginning. Certainly don't take it as gospel. Hell, even if I had worked extensively in the industry, things can change completely from one company to another.
QA are definitely developers. They are part of the dev team, bring issues to attention, track how systems act over time, and have to make mental connections on what issues might be related or why they occur. They are very familiar with the game software and there's lots of back and forth and interaction with the rest of the team. They don't just sit in a dark room and fill out forms.
Producers are devs, too, their job is to make sure everything gets done and they channel the creative energy into something that can actually be realized.
Marketing is a seperate entity, but their boss, the publisher's executive producer, gets to make all the high level calls on what the game will be in accordance to market demands, so he very much shapes the game.
Producers are devs, too, their job is to make sure everything gets done and they channel the creative energy into something that can actually be realized.
Marketing is a seperate entity, but their boss, the publisher's executive producer, gets to make all the high level calls on what the game will be in accordance to market demands, so he very much shapes the game.
We used to have this discussion all the time in the navy. We ultimately came to the conclusion that anyone who contributes to the war effort is a sailor, whether or not they wear the little hat.
This thread reminds me of this:
The Other Door Problems
Creative Director: "Yes, we definitely need doors in this game."
Project Manager: "I'll put time on the schedule for people to make doors."
Designer: "I wrote a doc explaining what we need doors to do."
Concept Artist: "I made some gorgeous paintings of doors."
Art Director: "This third painting is exactly the style of doors we need."
Environment Artist: "I took this painting of a door and made it into an object in the game."
Animator: "I made the door open and close."
Sound Designer: "I made the sounds the door creates when it opens and closes."
Audio Engineer: "The sound of the door opening and closing will change based on where the player is and what direction they are facing."
Composer: "I created a theme song for the door."
FX Artist: "I added some cool sparks to the door when it opens."
Writer: "When the door opens, the player will say, 'Hey look! The door opened!' "
Lighter: "There is a bright red light over the door when it's locked, and a green one when it's opened."
Legal: "The environment artist put a Starbucks logo on the door. You need to remove that if you don't want to be sued."
Character Artist: "I don't really care about this door until it can start wearing hats."
Gameplay Programmer: "This door asset now opens and closes based on proximity to the player. It can also be locked and unlocked through script."
AI Programmer: "Enemies and allies now know if a door is there and whether they can go through it."
Network Programmer: "Do all the players need to see the door open at the same time?"
Release Engineer: "You need to get your doors in by 3pm if you want them on the disk."
Core Engine Programmer: "I have optimized the code to allow up to 1024 doors in the game."
Tools Programmer: "I made it even easier for you to place doors."
Level Designer: "I put the door in my level and locked it. After an event, I unlocked it."
UI Designer: "There's now an objective marker on the door, and it has its own icon on the map."
Combat Designer: "Enemies will spawn behind doors, and lay cover fire as their allies enter the room. Unless the player is looking inside the door in which case they will spawn behind a different door."
Systems Designer: "A level 4 player earns 148xp for opening this door at the cost of 3 gold."
Monetization Designer: "We could charge the player $.99 to open the door now, or wait 24 hours for it to open automatically."
QA Tester: "I walked to the door. I ran to the door. I jumped at the door. I stood in the doorway until it closed. I saved and reloaded and walked to the door. I died and reloaded then walked to the door. I threw grenades at the door."
UX / Usability Researcher: "I found some people on Craigslist to go through the door so we could see what problems crop up."
Localization: "Door. Puerta. Porta. Porte. Tür. Dør. Deur. Drzwi. Drws. 문"
Producer: "Do we need to give everyone those doors or can we save them for a pre-order bonus?"
Publisher: "Those doors are really going to help this game stand out during the fall line-up."
CEO: "I want you all to know how much I appreciate the time and effort put into making those doors."
PR: "To all our fans, you're going to go crazy over our next reveal #gamedev #doors #nextgen #retweet"
Community Manager: "I let the fans know that their concerns about doors will be addressed in the upcoming patch."
Customer Support: "A player contacted us, confused about doors. I gave them detailed instructions on how to use them."
Player: "I totally didn't even notice a door there."
Full article:
http://www.lizengland.com/blog/2014/04/the-door-problem/
The Other Door Problems
Creative Director: "Yes, we definitely need doors in this game."
Project Manager: "I'll put time on the schedule for people to make doors."
Designer: "I wrote a doc explaining what we need doors to do."
Concept Artist: "I made some gorgeous paintings of doors."
Art Director: "This third painting is exactly the style of doors we need."
Environment Artist: "I took this painting of a door and made it into an object in the game."
Animator: "I made the door open and close."
Sound Designer: "I made the sounds the door creates when it opens and closes."
Audio Engineer: "The sound of the door opening and closing will change based on where the player is and what direction they are facing."
Composer: "I created a theme song for the door."
FX Artist: "I added some cool sparks to the door when it opens."
Writer: "When the door opens, the player will say, 'Hey look! The door opened!' "
Lighter: "There is a bright red light over the door when it's locked, and a green one when it's opened."
Legal: "The environment artist put a Starbucks logo on the door. You need to remove that if you don't want to be sued."
Character Artist: "I don't really care about this door until it can start wearing hats."
Gameplay Programmer: "This door asset now opens and closes based on proximity to the player. It can also be locked and unlocked through script."
AI Programmer: "Enemies and allies now know if a door is there and whether they can go through it."
Network Programmer: "Do all the players need to see the door open at the same time?"
Release Engineer: "You need to get your doors in by 3pm if you want them on the disk."
Core Engine Programmer: "I have optimized the code to allow up to 1024 doors in the game."
Tools Programmer: "I made it even easier for you to place doors."
Level Designer: "I put the door in my level and locked it. After an event, I unlocked it."
UI Designer: "There's now an objective marker on the door, and it has its own icon on the map."
Combat Designer: "Enemies will spawn behind doors, and lay cover fire as their allies enter the room. Unless the player is looking inside the door in which case they will spawn behind a different door."
Systems Designer: "A level 4 player earns 148xp for opening this door at the cost of 3 gold."
Monetization Designer: "We could charge the player $.99 to open the door now, or wait 24 hours for it to open automatically."
QA Tester: "I walked to the door. I ran to the door. I jumped at the door. I stood in the doorway until it closed. I saved and reloaded and walked to the door. I died and reloaded then walked to the door. I threw grenades at the door."
UX / Usability Researcher: "I found some people on Craigslist to go through the door so we could see what problems crop up."
Localization: "Door. Puerta. Porta. Porte. Tür. Dør. Deur. Drzwi. Drws. 문"
Producer: "Do we need to give everyone those doors or can we save them for a pre-order bonus?"
Publisher: "Those doors are really going to help this game stand out during the fall line-up."
CEO: "I want you all to know how much I appreciate the time and effort put into making those doors."
PR: "To all our fans, you're going to go crazy over our next reveal #gamedev #doors #nextgen #retweet"
Community Manager: "I let the fans know that their concerns about doors will be addressed in the upcoming patch."
Customer Support: "A player contacted us, confused about doors. I gave them detailed instructions on how to use them."
Player: "I totally didn't even notice a door there."
Full article:
http://www.lizengland.com/blog/2014/04/the-door-problem/
The people that contribute to what you see, hear, do and the people that make sure it all works on a technical level are developers.
I wouldn't consider PR reps, open beta testers or even executive producers as developers but they do contribute to the game making process.
Not every game dev can tell you how many triangles a character is made of, or how many lines of code it takes to make a jumping mechanic work properly, of how many different sounds went into making that monster roar. But the people who's work is on display are the ones I'd call "developers".
I wouldn't consider PR reps, open beta testers or even executive producers as developers but they do contribute to the game making process.
Not every game dev can tell you how many triangles a character is made of, or how many lines of code it takes to make a jumping mechanic work properly, of how many different sounds went into making that monster roar. But the people who's work is on display are the ones I'd call "developers".
If a product could not be created without the role, then they are developers.
A game with characters needs animators.
A game with 3d objects needs modellers
A game with music needs a composer/sound designer
If you need someone to help develop your game, they are game developers.
A game with characters needs animators.
A game with 3d objects needs modellers
A game with music needs a composer/sound designer
If you need someone to help develop your game, they are game developers.
respect
imma game developer (programmer) and from my perspective, production and qa are dev
for a start, qa author test suites, and that's dev
I mean, I can only comment on my own experience.
For almost 3 years I worked at Blizzard as a QA tester. We were basically a bunch of kids sitting in super fancy game chairs feeling super lucky to be playing games and getting paid for it. Sure we had to fill out forms/data input every 30 minutes or so, but It was a minimum wage job that required no experience or skills.
Now, not all companies are equal, and not all QA testing is equal. I later on did some 'QA testing' that literally required small amounts of code manipulation and much more in depth responsibilities. It was a much smaller group (mobile game) and the 'QA testers' included the coders and a couple of the creators. In that case, I wouldn't even label it QA testing tbh, even though that's part of what we were doing.
My point is, at least for me, when I talk 'game development' and 'game developer' I refer specifically to creators of the projects. Artists, coders, decision makers and their staff.
Maybe the definition can be blurred a bit for some jobs, but there's definitely a point that takes it too far in my view. When you start talking about the marketing firm or legal office being a 'developer' that just sounds off to me.
I never felt the need to fight for/argue for status when I worked QA at Blizzard. I knew my place and never felt I was on the level of the developers there. Not sure why anyone would feel any different about a job status like that now.
For almost 3 years I worked at Blizzard as a QA tester. We were basically a bunch of kids sitting in super fancy game chairs feeling super lucky to be playing games and getting paid for it. Sure we had to fill out forms/data input every 30 minutes or so, but It was a minimum wage job that required no experience or skills.
Now, not all companies are equal, and not all QA testing is equal. I later on did some 'QA testing' that literally required small amounts of code manipulation and much more in depth responsibilities. It was a much smaller group (mobile game) and the 'QA testers' included the coders and a couple of the creators. In that case, I wouldn't even label it QA testing tbh, even though that's part of what we were doing.
My point is, at least for me, when I talk 'game development' and 'game developer' I refer specifically to creators of the projects. Artists, coders, decision makers and their staff.
Maybe the definition can be blurred a bit for some jobs, but there's definitely a point that takes it too far in my view. When you start talking about the marketing firm or legal office being a 'developer' that just sounds off to me.
I never felt the need to fight for/argue for status when I worked QA at Blizzard. I knew my place and never felt I was on the level of the developers there. Not sure why anyone would feel any different about a job status like that now.
Depending on the company and role-definitions, Producers do a "lot" more than scheduling the work - but I prefer to avoid specific titles and just label that "production-staff" (includes project managers and a host of other different named roles).
And yes they are all game-devs when working on game projects, Krejloc's definition fits.
The one area that gets a bit hairy is executive roles(well, Executive Producers really - other executive roles I generally don't consider game-devs in a typical scenario) - it's difficult to argue they actually contribute to production(s) directly, but without their contribution projects often wouldn't even start, or continue to operate etc.
People who are involved in the production of the game (i.e., those who help get it shipped) are game developers. Their role may be more or less major, but that's about the only reasonable distinction. Most of the arguments here seem to be largely related to purity testing, which is never a good look.
As for what game development is, my hope is that it's something akin to the design process, where the first two steps are basically more free and open, and are not so much about users as they are about ideas:
I'm aware, as a person who has made games in the past, that it's not anything actually like this, but I like to imagine people try to follow something like this. ;)
As for what game development is, my hope is that it's something akin to the design process, where the first two steps are basically more free and open, and are not so much about users as they are about ideas:
I'm aware, as a person who has made games in the past, that it's not anything actually like this, but I like to imagine people try to follow something like this. ;)
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That really depends on company by company and even on regions. In japan for example, a producer have a bigger role compared to what we have in the west for many cases but not all of them.
That's a really great example. lol
I haven't work in the videogame industry so i suspect that i am "wrong" but my humble opinion is this:
Game development as a term for me is the ombrella that encapsulates all the other roles, and for me it is just that, roles to game development. Developers is just one role in a team of creators.
Programmers/developers, artists, marketing, producers, QA, voice actors,.... all are equal roles in a team in order to finish the game for me.
Everyone that contributes something, measurable or not is in this category.
Game development as a term for me is the ombrella that encapsulates all the other roles, and for me it is just that, roles to game development. Developers is just one role in a team of creators.
Programmers/developers, artists, marketing, producers, QA, voice actors,.... all are equal roles in a team in order to finish the game for me.
Everyone that contributes something, measurable or not is in this category.
I tend to agree with this (I'm a web developer myself). I associate developer with programmers/coders, though since games are much more complicated and larger products, it would no doubt include other roles as well. It doesn't mean that non-programmers are less important, though! Anyone who tries to exclude or make people feel lesser for having a different, but still crucial role, would be quite the asshat.
oh you
List is great but goddamn this slayed me. That and the "#retweet" haha.
I associate developer with coders as well, though my company makes us refer to them as engineers, since development is something we all take part in. The term's used so much it's also somewhat meaningless though, as every year seems to see the increase of engineers who clearly aren't focused on that. ^^;
Naming stuff is a weird process, especially in tech.
Sure, but there's inevitably going to be a time where QA comes back and the coders decide to take something out rather than try and fix whatever Cthulu-esque nightmare QA stepped into and is now presenting to them.
Like, I'd be remiss to not include them when I think about stuff like that.
The thing is though, is that QA influence quite significantly what you see in the game. Take out the QA and the game you're playing would often be quite different.
It's not just finding bugs, feedback goes right down to the design of a game and can result in quite significant changes.
Hi I've been designing, building and implementing in-game environments and assets for 10 years.
QA are devs, and honestly I think we would make better games if we treated in-house QA more like design assistants. Often companies do the bare minimum and use QA just to iron out technical faults, but if we were able to put the time and effort into collating more creative feedback in post-alpha and at least running it all by the relevant creators I think we would make better games.
QA are devs, and honestly I think we would make better games if we treated in-house QA more like design assistants. Often companies do the bare minimum and use QA just to iron out technical faults, but if we were able to put the time and effort into collating more creative feedback in post-alpha and at least running it all by the relevant creators I think we would make better games.
QA is an absolutely crucial aspect of the development process. In my current team, QA is part of all of our meetings (daily), they plan their work in the same board as us, they give us feedback almost daily and no task is considered finished without their approval.
I agree with you that I wouldn't personally consider them "developers" since they're not building features or assets but I just thought "aid" didn't convey the full scope of their involvement.