Lonestar

Roll Tahd, Pawl
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
3,698
LBJ can fucking burn,
Signed: The Victims and Children of victims of Agent Orange/Operation Ranch Hand.

You too, JFK for signing off on it. Nixon for all the obvious reasons as well.


As for the rest, there's not alot to choose from that didn't have some horrific flaws they proceeded over. Lincoln probably did the most good in relation to shit that happened during his term. FDR for getting us out of the GD, and through WWII, but oh yeah, internment and help starting the creation of the Nuclear Bomb. Carter tried, but seemed doomed to fail. Clinton probably just happened to be in office when the internet age started. Obama tried, but seemed doomed to fail (thanks alot, Tea Party...). Eisenhower gets credit for the highway system, and hey, super high taxes on wealth.

Maybe the one president who died after a month???
William Henry Harrison died before he could fuck anything up.
giphy.gif
 

Nigel Tufnel

Member
Mar 5, 2019
3,560
He inherited that war and did what any other president would have done at the time, with the tech we had. Crude bombing. He didn't know the Vietnamese would just completely kick our ass's anyways.

I think this is a bad take because it is not an accurate portrayal of LBJs responsibility for escalation of US involvement. Further, this still gives LBJ an out Obama isnt afforded. Obama inherited the conflicts in the Middle East and Central Asia, and simply used the tech available to him to prosecute those conflicts. The defense is hollow for Obama, and worse for LBJ.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
I think this is a bad take because it is not an accurate portrayal of LBJs responsibility for escalation of US involvement. Further, this still gives LBJ an out Obama isnt afforded. Obama inherited the conflicts in the Middle East and Central Asia, and simply used the tech available to him to prosecute those conflicts. The defense is hollow for Obama, and worse for LBJ.

Remember that at the time, LBJ couldn't just dial up some accurate satellite imagery and know what the bombs he dropped would do. He was going off the intel of generals. Photos from planes doing precarious flybys. Etc.

Obama did. A cruise missile and the other ordinances a drone launches is a gruesome thing. Launching it into the middle of a neighborhood is going to blast apart innocents. There's just no way around it. And sorry if that sounds bad but it is what those bombs did. They wrecked entire portions of places where people lived and many of them were innocent men, women, and children who may have had no idea some ISIS member was living next door.
 

Nigel Tufnel

Member
Mar 5, 2019
3,560
Remember that at the time, LBJ couldn't just dial up some accurate satellite imagery and know what the bombs he dropped would do. He was going off the intel of generals. Photos of planes doing precarious flybys. Etc.

Obama did. A cruise missile and the other ordinances a drone launches is a gruesome thing. Launching it into the middle of a neighborhood is going to blast apart innocents. There's just no way around it.
We dropped 400,000 tons of napalm on Vietnam.
 

Nigel Tufnel

Member
Mar 5, 2019
3,560
Yea and much of it was in the jungle. Bush and Obama launched missiles right into the downtown of cities.
Let's try this another way. LBJs war effort in Vietnam measured success by body count. That was the metric. Kill as many as possible. I'm really getting my mind blown by the "Vietnam was just the best they could do" take here.
 

Gwenpoolshark

Member
Jan 5, 2018
4,109
The Pool
I didn't say Obama wasn't shitty... I just said least shitty. His civilian death toll is still lower than most (if not all?) modern presidents except maybe Carter.

Like I said, I don't really think you can be an actually good person and be president. Or at least it hasn't happened yet (except Carter I suppose?)

Carter always gets overlooked but as far as presidents who were actually decent human beings, abhorred war, believed in rights and equality, and worked to de-escalate Nixonian fascism and racism, you could do a lot worse.
 

kess

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,020
FDR has the internment camps, but was also involved in setting up the National Labor Relations Board, Executive Order 8802 prohibiting racial discrimination in the defense industry, and breaking the Philadelphia Transit Strike of 1944, desegregating the union with federal intervention.

It's debatable what Alf Landon, Wendell Willkie, or Dewey would have done, but FDR informed the Democratic position going forward. His Secretary of the Interior desegregated the Department, the kind of thing that set him against the Dixiecrats in his own time.

FDR's worst legacy is looking the other way as the Home Owner's Loan Corporation poisoned the well and enacted redline policies in cooperation with banks.
 
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Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,274
Probably something like:
FDR
Jefferson

Ike
LBJ/Teddy
Monroe/Truman

Lincoln is top 10, but I'm not a fan of he gets a free pass for a lot of shit (and I live in IL. LMAO).
 

legend166

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,113
Isn't it also like 95% likely that LBJ rigged his senate election? He was losing in a run off and then they miraculously found an extra ballot box which overwhelmingly favoured Johnson and he won.

In Alice they discover signs of fraud: The last 202 names on the rolls in Box 13 were written in a different color ink; the new names were listed in alphabetical order; the handwriting was identical; some of the new voters claim they never voted.

 

UrbanDandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,440
Teddy. Odd that a Republican president who championed conservation is being ruined by republicans in favor of monopolies.

FDR - for obvious reasons

Lincoln - same

Clinton - for balancing the nations' budget, unfortunately, he couldn't keep it in his pants.
 
Feb 1, 2018
5,083
So many cites were ruined by the highway act. Before this American cities were bustling and had some of the best public transportation in the world. So much beautiful architecture was torn down thanks to the highways. This brought a rise to the horrible cookie cutter suburbs, white flight, death of street cars and other public transportation systems. Always makes me sad to see pictures from the 20's and 30's how great the cities used to be then see recent pictures of the empty parking lots that replaced a lot of it.

That's one way to view it. The other way is that freeways and highways connected the country in more robust ways and allowed a period of economic expansion and facilitation of a burgeoning middle class
 

Ramsay

Member
Jul 2, 2019
3,704
Australia
FDR wasn't perfect, but he did pretty much set up a proper safety net against poverty.

Best modern President would be Obama by far (he's B/B+), although that's largely because I would give Clinton, both Bushes, Reagan and Trump an F.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged" - Noam Chomsky
Carter always gets overlooked but as far as presidents who were actually decent human beings, abhorred war, believed in rights and equality, and worked to de-escalate Nixonian fascism and racism, you could do a lot worse.

Carter send weapons and money to support the Indonesian genocide in East Timor. Not a decent human being after all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,832
Racoon City
So many cites were ruined by the highway act. Before this American cities were bustling and had some of the best public transportation in the world. So much beautiful architecture was torn down thanks to the highways. This brought a rise to the horrible cookie cutter suburbs, white flight, death of street cars and other public transportation systems. Always makes me sad to see pictures from the 20's and 30's how great the cities used to be then see recent pictures of the empty parking lots that replaced a lot of it.

Not to mention how it utterly decimated the black community as those highways were purposefully run through our neighborhoods with the intent to destroy them. And stop the growth of black wealth and community

It's impossible for me to look past that and say it was "worth it"
 
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Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Is everyone really skimming over all of the Vietnamese LBJ bombed both publicly and secretly after lying to the public? All so that America won't look bad for losing a war they could never win? Vietnam was entirely his war. Nixon inherited it and continued the bombing. Americans today still brushing off that shit like it was nothing. Fantastic.

The best president is the one that keeled over only a few months into his term. Didn't live long enough to fuck anything up.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
1,095
FDR wasn't perfect, but he did pretty much set up a proper safety net against poverty.

Best modern President would be Obama by far (he's B/B+), although that's largely because I would give Clinton, both Bushes, Reagan and Trump an F.
Obama is a war criminal who should be spending the rest of his natural life in a cell. He is not the best by any metric.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,095
He's the best modern president - which isn't a high bar when Reagan, Clinton, the Bushes and Trump have all been awful.
I'd argue that Carter is less bad. What Obama did wrt not closing gitmo, the droning of innocent civilians, the way his admin opened the door to abuse by subsequent administrations. He also presided over a huge transfer of wealth during the 08 crisis.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
Fdr, lincoln, washington in that order. all others have pretty much been meh or sucked
 

Piecake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,298
Is that... supposed to be good..?

Some would say so.

Polk certainly was an influential and important president who changed US history a great deal. Whether that was a good thing is up to you. That is how I took his 'great' word. Not so much as a moral judgement, but whether any president in the 19th century did something important besides lincoln.
 

Mar Tuuk

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,699
I'd argue that Carter is less bad. What Obama did wrt not closing gitmo, the droning of innocent civilians, the way his admin opened the door to abuse by subsequent administrations. He also presided over a huge transfer of wealth during the 08 crisis.
I forgot about the bailouts to Wall Street
 

Deleted member 31923

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,826
FDR was the best imo. LBJ was one of the best on domestic policy, and one of the worst on foreign policy thanks to Vietnam. Ike was the last decent Republican president.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,853
Orlando, FL
Instead of comparing the awfulness of the two worst, let's have a nicer discussion of the opposite.

There isn't a single president who would not have both positives and negatives.
FDR would have been the best for the new deal and victory in WWII but he also has some glaring low points like Japanese internment and inaction on Jim Crow laws in the South.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,126
I forgot about the bailouts to Wall Street

or him and dems not prosecuting wall street and banks for two highly destructive schemes to country and global economy.

next to throwing us underneath the bus to insurance companies on obama care this is their biggest sin in our lifetimes and most don't give a fuck they did nothing. one reason my vote for team blue is no longer automatic short of shit show like trump.
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,410
It's hard to ignore FDR, Lincoln, and Washington considering the country probably wouldn't even exist without them. The internment camps is a stain on his legacy and he was probably the closest thing to a king the United States has ever had (or ever will have) but what FDR was able to accomplish is nothing short of incredible.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,823
So many cites were ruined by the highway act. Before this American cities were bustling and had some of the best public transportation in the world. So much beautiful architecture was torn down thanks to the highways. This brought a rise to the horrible cookie cutter suburbs, white flight, death of street cars and other public transportation systems. Always makes me sad to see pictures from the 20's and 30's how great the cities used to be then see recent pictures of the empty parking lots that replaced a lot of it.

I think a similar argument would have been made bemoaning the railroad. That the railroad starved towns that rail couldn't get to (it did), turned cities into smoke-filled industrial exfixiation chambers (it did), accelerated the mechanization of human labor (it did), was designed and implemented by a corrupt union between gilded-age billionaires and paid-off politicians (it was), destroyed natural ecology (it did), was built using immigrant slave labor that had no concern for human life (it was), and treated native populations like collateral damage ... sacrificial offerings to the god of railroad (they were).

But, the railroad also brought education, electricity, transportation, medicine / healthcare, democracy ... and all of the other things associated with progress to a rural country. The railroad system contributed nearly as much to the American victory over the slave-supporting insurrection than anything else. The Interstate Highway is similar. There's something lost by the ramshackal local road system that preceded it, and also for many cities (like the one I grew up in) the interstate highway destroyed local neighborhoods and ghettoized the working class from the middle class (many cities still have this today). But that ghettoization is still often referred to colloquially as "Living on the wrong side of the tracks," a direct reference to the affect of rail on cities and towns. The old photos of beautiful Main Streets that were then torn apart by urban highways often miss that 3 or 4 blocks from the highway was a bustling residential center that was converted from immigrant housing into a steel-rail hellscape.

Today, the best cities balance all of them, pedestrian, auto, and rail, to live in harmony. The expansion of rail in the 1800s and the expansion of the interstate highway in the 1900s rewarded economic growth over urban harmony, both can be seen similarly. I think in 60 - 90 years time (or probably sooner) we might look at the expansion of the internet in the 1990s and 2000s similarly, that the undeniable benefit must also be measured by the cost.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,823
I think if you judge a president by their inability to do anything, then sure, ineffective do-nothings like Jimmy Carter and WIlliam Henry Harrison, or even historical villains like Franklin Pierce and Calvin Coolidge, can be pushed into "Great presidents" territory. "Wait, but I thought Franklin Pierce was one of the worst presidents ever...?" "OH! But he didn't DO anything and so no one died -- compared to Lincoln who presided over the most bloodshed in American history!" Carter is often considered one of the worst presidents since World War II because given the challenges his administration faced, his administration failed at most of them. This is why Trump will also go down as one of the worst presidents since World War II, that given the challenges his administration faced, he failed at all of them. Calvin Coolidge famously/infamously didn't do anything: He pulled the American military home from wherever they were, he defunded military expansion, he didn't believe that the federal government should be interfereing in the business of states, a stark contrast from an opponent Woodrow Wilson, Coolidge believed in equality between the races ... a Progressive ideology, but because of his infamous do-nothingness, he never advocated for civil rights, and of course, his presidency would be defined by do-nothingness as he stubbornly refused to provide support to drowning states during the horrific Great Mississippi Flood. Herbert Hoover, by contrast, was elected as "The Great Humanitarian," because of his work during the Flood and as a humanitarian coordinator during World War I and in other scurges... A far cry from how we'd perceive him today. Coolidge is conventionally perceived as a failed president, but, the spirit of do-nothingness ... He didn't start any wars after all ... would promote him much higher than he deserves to be.

This is the tension or contradiction of "The Great Man" theory, that the thing that drives Lyndon Johnson to introduce social security, expanded welfare, expanded access to affordable medical care, sign the CIvil Rights Act, desegregate the schools, extend basic human rights to African Americans when 50% of his party was dead-set against it ... or even prior to becoming president, bringing running water, medicine, and electricity to destitute poor Texas HIll Country, ... That thing that drives him is also the thing that drove him to massively expand the war in Vietnam, sending hundreds of thousands of American servicemen to fight, kill, and die in a civil war that Europe and the United States shouldn't have been involved in at all, contributing to a massively expanded body count than had Westerners not intervened. So is Lyndon Johnson a worse president than Carter? The Vietnam War lies at his feet more than any other president, yet, so does the Civil Rights Act and Desegregation, the Education Act, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Public Broadcasting ... the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, minimum wage hikes ... Basically, the things that conservatives like Mitch McConnell have all been trying to destroy for the last 20 years, were things that Lyndon Johnson could do, but Jimmy Carter was not capable of. And yet, that same driving force is what drove the military that he presided over to drop hundreds of thousands of tons of Napalm on destitute Vietnamese children.
 
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Mar Tuuk

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,699
This thread reminded me of these pictures from the exclusive club of presidents:
JFK, VP LBJ, Eisenhower and Truman at the funeral of House Speaker Sam Rayburn 1961
Heck Herbert Hoover, elected in 1928, outlived JFK to 1964
Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr. in 1990
Obama, Bush, and Clinton at President's Cup 2017
Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, and Carter at funeral for Bush Sr. in 2018