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What ‘Star’ franchise is in a better place
- Thread starter Soap
- Start date
Star Wars easily. Only genuine low point there imo was Rise of Skywalker. Everything else has been aces... with much more to come(For better or worse possibly... we'll see).
Trek-wise, much as I enjoyed Lower Decks and think Discovery has improved a bit last season...Picard really was just a complete shitshow and the movies are seemingly dead in the water (and after Beyond was fairly average, coming off the heels of Into Darkness being almost Nemesis-tier awful). It kinda feels like the franchise is a bit of a mess right now tbh.
Trek-wise, much as I enjoyed Lower Decks and think Discovery has improved a bit last season...Picard really was just a complete shitshow and the movies are seemingly dead in the water (and after Beyond was fairly average, coming off the heels of Into Darkness being almost Nemesis-tier awful). It kinda feels like the franchise is a bit of a mess right now tbh.
Which 'star' franchise is in a better place at the moment?
(Professor Frink voice) A Red Dwarf is a star, so technically my answer matches the question.
After a nearly a decade off the screens it returned nearly as good as it was at its peak - probably mainly due to having at least one member of the original creators writing for it and able not only to remember what made these characters great, but also to adapt them somewhat to their current ages.
I'm not going to give my opinions on the current state of Star Wars/Trek. That never ends well.
(Professor Frink voice) A Red Dwarf is a star, so technically my answer matches the question.
After a nearly a decade off the screens it returned nearly as good as it was at its peak - probably mainly due to having at least one member of the original creators writing for it and able not only to remember what made these characters great, but also to adapt them somewhat to their current ages.
I'm not going to give my opinions on the current state of Star Wars/Trek. That never ends well.
Star Trek's Kevin Feige is Alex Kurtzman. Let that sink in.
If it wasn't for Mandalorian, I wouldn't have any interest in either of them. Crazy to say that, given that I was such a huge fan when I was younger. The MCU has just completely replaced them.
Despite the car crash of the Sequel Trilogy (I think it came out recently that no one had actually decided who Rey's parents were till Episode 9 was in production, that's just fucking mind blowingly stupid and sloppy) I think I'd have to say the franchise is in a better place than Trek. The Mandalorian seems to have got so much right, not just in fan service cameos but with the aesthetic, style, setting and action. Where the sequels have failed, hope exists that good things are coming.
I wish someone would steer Star Trek back to what it was - drop the stupid snark humour and bring back the atmosphere and mood of sophistication. The shows had their stupid moments, like the whole reverse evolution plague and many others. But besides a mind boggling number of concerts, theatre productions and so on happening in ten forward the shows had genuine thought provoking human interest going on there. Tackling complex philosophical, linguistic, ethical problems. That for me was always the element Star Wars couldn't compete with.
I wish someone would steer Star Trek back to what it was - drop the stupid snark humour and bring back the atmosphere and mood of sophistication. The shows had their stupid moments, like the whole reverse evolution plague and many others. But besides a mind boggling number of concerts, theatre productions and so on happening in ten forward the shows had genuine thought provoking human interest going on there. Tackling complex philosophical, linguistic, ethical problems. That for me was always the element Star Wars couldn't compete with.
Star Wars has rebounded far faster than I expected after TRoS. I expected folks to be done with the IP after that, Game of Thrones-style, but Mandolorian and all the spin-offs have garnered enough hype. I think it helps that Star Wars is honestly better suited for TV shows, comics, and the like, rather than movies. The world's just so big at this point.
Meanwhile, where Star Wars is trying to be more cohesive, Trek seems to be going the opposite direction, which is more creatively interesting but can leave a lot more people feeling cold or left-out. I could see the Captain Pike show appealing to older fans, though.
So yeah Star Wars is in a better place financially and in terms of general audience satisfaction, Star Trek is in a better place when it comes to sheer creativity and potential.
At the very least Star Trek seems to be doing a much better job with diversity.
Meanwhile, where Star Wars is trying to be more cohesive, Trek seems to be going the opposite direction, which is more creatively interesting but can leave a lot more people feeling cold or left-out. I could see the Captain Pike show appealing to older fans, though.
So yeah Star Wars is in a better place financially and in terms of general audience satisfaction, Star Trek is in a better place when it comes to sheer creativity and potential.
At the very least Star Trek seems to be doing a much better job with diversity.
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Meanwhile Star Trek hasn't had a good game since Star Trek Voyager Elite Force, and that game didn't really feel like Star Trek anyway imo (too arcade, it was more like Quake with a Star Trek skin, which it technically was I guess). Star Trek Armada was also pretty awesome, but that's even older than Elite Force. Most Star Wars games are either decent or great...
Development for new Stargate TV series set within the SG-1, Universe canon is 'progressing' News
More at: https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/stargate-producer-teases-progress-new-tv-series-set-within-sg-1 Lock chevron if old
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While I struggle to say it is amazing, if Star Trek I line was just the space battles I would honestly put it above The Old Republic MMO... Sadly they have that ground combat.
I do think it is a lot easier to make a Star Wars game though. The closest we will probably get to a good Star Trek game is Mass Effect (OK, maybe FTL too) and even that has too much action.
They are both in pretty bad shape.
Star Trek Discovery was a case of "be careful what you wish for". For years I wanted a more action packed version of Trek with a higher budget. When it finally came along I was like "thanks, I hate it".
Star Wars recent trilogy was terrible. They have Mandalorian but its devolved into pure fan service at this point.
Star Trek Discovery was a case of "be careful what you wish for". For years I wanted a more action packed version of Trek with a higher budget. When it finally came along I was like "thanks, I hate it".
Star Wars recent trilogy was terrible. They have Mandalorian but its devolved into pure fan service at this point.
It's been "progressing" for years now, just like the MMO they even featured in the pilot of Universe...look where that went.Development for new Stargate TV series set within the SG-1, Universe canon is 'progressing' News
More at: https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/stargate-producer-teases-progress-new-tv-series-set-within-sg-1 Lock chevron if old
Glad to see people generally like Discovery - I really like that show. And the actor who portrays Burnam is *excellent*.
Neither show's really drawing me in that hard. I've been meaning more to see the new Treks, but... it just feels like it'd be an effort to invest my time into them, you know?
The next closest series I'm looking forward to, I guess, in terms of a Trek-like might actually be the fourth season of The Mysterious Cities of Gold? That's quite stretching the bow, yes. But it managed to recover itself after a really really bumpy revival season. Yes, I'm counting it as a "Traveling Sci-Fi".
I'm not sure what the situation with Red Dwarf and The Orville is right now, but I hope they can keep going strong. I haven't heard much news about either, recently.
The next closest series I'm looking forward to, I guess, in terms of a Trek-like might actually be the fourth season of The Mysterious Cities of Gold? That's quite stretching the bow, yes. But it managed to recover itself after a really really bumpy revival season. Yes, I'm counting it as a "Traveling Sci-Fi".
I'm not sure what the situation with Red Dwarf and The Orville is right now, but I hope they can keep going strong. I haven't heard much news about either, recently.
Picard and Disco are two of the most disappointing shows I think I've ever seen in my life as far as expectation vs. delivery and I have no desire to watch future seasons of either not to mention they've poisoned any expectation I have for the Pike show or the Section 31 show. Star Trek couldn't be in a worse place IMO. They're trying to turn it into braindead crowd pleasing popcorn junk like the JJ movies and hit some weird middle ground between that and what would barely pass for the dirt worst plotlines from the TOS run. I can't imagine the kind of person these shows are pleasing but as someone who grew up in the golden era of trek (TNG/DS9/Voyager) I ain't it
Star Wars' movie output has been.... underwhelming to say the least (Force Awakens was fun and promising but everything since has furthered the spiraling down the drain of the franchise IMO. Mandalorian this time last year I would have said I'm luke warm at best on but season 2 kind of justified the whole series' existence imo. Made me at least excited to see how Star Wars works as an extended universe via Disney+ shows.
Star Trek current standing rating: 3/10, which is probably still generous, but I liked a few bits of the Lorca season of Discovery
Star Wars current standing rating: 6/10, too many flubbed movies but the Disney+verse shows promise
LiQuid!'s pro-tip for err'body in this thread: Watch Babylon 5 remastered on HBO Max cause I'd wager most people propagating the tired Wars V. Trek debates in 2021 haven't seen the actual best sci fi show ever made
Star Wars' movie output has been.... underwhelming to say the least (Force Awakens was fun and promising but everything since has furthered the spiraling down the drain of the franchise IMO. Mandalorian this time last year I would have said I'm luke warm at best on but season 2 kind of justified the whole series' existence imo. Made me at least excited to see how Star Wars works as an extended universe via Disney+ shows.
Star Trek current standing rating: 3/10, which is probably still generous, but I liked a few bits of the Lorca season of Discovery
Star Wars current standing rating: 6/10, too many flubbed movies but the Disney+verse shows promise
LiQuid!'s pro-tip for err'body in this thread: Watch Babylon 5 remastered on HBO Max cause I'd wager most people propagating the tired Wars V. Trek debates in 2021 haven't seen the actual best sci fi show ever made
Yeah but character sucks hard, unfortunately. There are little to no likeable characters on that show and 2+ seasons of Burnham breaking a rule, getting away with it even though she shouldn't, and doing it again interspersed with overwrought dramatic *insert crying scene and monologue every five minutes* nonsense absolutely killed any interest I had.
I made it to the second episode of season 3 and was like, why am I watching this.
Well I can't say much about modern Trek. I liked the movies , especially Beyond and haven't seen the new shows so I can't comment on the comparative quality of the current media.
I agree Wars will always be more popular, but if we control for that by just guaging relative buzz inside each communities, I tend to think Star Wars is in a better place, for the reasons mentioned. After stumbling with the films, Lucasfilm has recalibrated and seems to have found a good formula going forward. It's very possible there will be some real stinker shows in the future that alters this calculus but the Obi-wan show alone could be a huge boon for the fandom.
Trek doesn't seem to have the same cache within its community at the moment. Like when TNG/DS9 was running, it was the 'intellectual sci-fi' show all the older kids liked. I can't say people say the same anout Picard or Discovery.
I think Enterprise was the end of the last golden age of Trek, and I liked Enterprise too.
Nothing against the actress, she does a good job with what she's given. The S3 premiere when she gets drugged is a great example. But the character sucks and there is a chunk of views that are over Disco for that reason (amongst a slew of others).
To each their own, of course. I don't mean to yuck anyone's yum, but man I began to really hate the series before I sat back and wondered why I was watching it.
On the other side of things, I didn't even watch RoS because TLJ was such a let down. But Mandalorian was amazing and that Disney push seems to be generating some potentially awesome content.
I really need to check out Lower Decks.
While both are ultimately fine in that there are active productions in both franchises and people don't universally hate them, the answer is likely Star Wars. There're feature films that globally gross at least fairly well, while Star Trek feature production stalled, there are more serial series in production, and Star Wars video games are of fair to good quality these days. Star Trek games don't seem to benefit from the consistent attention of a publisher.
Mandalorian is the only hope for star wars. I'm little worried because they announced so many new shows. I doubt they can keep the quality up or just succumb to overt fan service.
ST is still stuck at nutrek trash, though some recent discovery episodes went to right direction.
ST is still stuck at nutrek trash, though some recent discovery episodes went to right direction.
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It's interesting to me that people say trek isn't part of popular culture. In my work place alone I know two people with trek tattoos (one of them has a huuuuuge tattoo), there is an old dude that gives me the Vulcan salute every morning after he mentored me and he found out we both like trek and my big boss was talking to me about discovery recently.
I get the same kind of contact with Star Wars, but I don't think Trek is some kind of obscure franchise.
Mind you, I think TOS pop culture is VERY overblown... Maybe that's more of an American thing.
Picard was OK. A disappointment, but OK still.
Discovery has been pretty good. It has flaws - like every other ST show - but I like it. Better than Voyager or Enterprise for sure as a whole (there are some standout Enterprise episodes though). In particular it suffers a bit from Burnham's character being a little all over the map. For that matter, that is just like Janeway in VOY...due to the writing and showrunning going all over the place on her writing - I think Burnham has the same problem. Still, it is obviously doing well for CBS given how much more ST we're getting. I don't think a minority of the angry fanbase is to be believed here - it seems to be pretty well received, overall.
SW has been a mess. Even the best of the new movies (TLJ) suffers from being very divisive to the entrenched fans - it didn't quite straddle that line of keeping the fandom happy while expanding the franchise. In that regard I think ST Disco has done that better - yeah there are some annoyed fans but there don't seem to be nearly as many IMO.
Mando is pretty cool in that wandering-samurai-sorta-way but it also has the potential to fall apart. There isn't a lot holding it together.
Discovery has been pretty good. It has flaws - like every other ST show - but I like it. Better than Voyager or Enterprise for sure as a whole (there are some standout Enterprise episodes though). In particular it suffers a bit from Burnham's character being a little all over the map. For that matter, that is just like Janeway in VOY...due to the writing and showrunning going all over the place on her writing - I think Burnham has the same problem. Still, it is obviously doing well for CBS given how much more ST we're getting. I don't think a minority of the angry fanbase is to be believed here - it seems to be pretty well received, overall.
SW has been a mess. Even the best of the new movies (TLJ) suffers from being very divisive to the entrenched fans - it didn't quite straddle that line of keeping the fandom happy while expanding the franchise. In that regard I think ST Disco has done that better - yeah there are some annoyed fans but there don't seem to be nearly as many IMO.
Mando is pretty cool in that wandering-samurai-sorta-way but it also has the potential to fall apart. There isn't a lot holding it together.
Even if you hate every single thing Disney has done with Star Wars, I don't know how anyone can argue Trek is in better shape. The franchise is just nowhere close to the same level of relevance.
it's a pretty unfair comparison though because SW has been one of the most dominant entertainment IPs for decades.
it's a pretty unfair comparison though because SW has been one of the most dominant entertainment IPs for decades.
I think what people mean, or at least when I talk about it, is that Star Trek isn't really a big part of any popular discourse these days. Look at Star Trek threads compared to Star Wars threads or discussion and hype surrounding them on any platform. It's like night and day.
The thing is, is that ST could easily inject itself into wider discourse if it was willing to take some more risks, to get more ambitious and to follow what has come before and 'enhance' it. Star Trek in the past was that and it got people talking. Now, in our current era of social media, it doesn't give people much to talk about. But imagine if Star Trek was again bringing up significant topics relevant to things going on today. When it tries this now, it's in the most cliche, ham handed ways, like in Picard and their little Brexit like allegory. Most Star Trek discussion I see outside of the critical look is people just kind of nodding along amusedly like the different series are merely entertaining and little else. ST is just so middling in what it does now - it doesn't really reach for the stars anymore, so to speak. It still has this potential to bring something more significant to how people talk about and look at contemporary and future issues, but as it is that's unlikely to happen.
I"ve always thought a Star Trek series made in the form of something like The Wire would be really good. Like a multi-faceted view of characters and institutions within the ST universe, with complex story arcs. Make ST actual prestige television, not wannabe.
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Love both franchises but I just can't get into ST: Discovery. The format is so different than every other series. It bugs me that most of the crew on deck are just background set pieces. I'm half way through season 2 so I'm assuming its all in different universe or things got retconned.