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kung-fu-owl

Alt account
Banned
Jul 27, 2019
513
I get it with some of these deals. Some others are done by the publisher (Outer Worlds, Metro Exodus etc) and I doubt devs see any benefit from that deal. What I don't like is the attittude of the devs of Ooblets, instances where they bought out exclusivity from Kickstarted games and subsequently didn't deliver what they promised or journalists painting any issue people have re this topic as toxic gamer bullshit.

I was in that Ooblets thread and I bailed because it got too toxic, but I'll reiterate what I said there here.

The devs did not paint anyone disappointed with their decision as toxic people.

They painted toxic people as toxic people for behaving toxicly.

If you're not responding to their decision with toxic behaviour, then they're not talking about you, and if you think you are being spoken to, then perhaps some reflection is order.

We all understand why developers take those deals. However, it is important to point out that understanding doesn't mean acceptance or endorsement. I can both understand why you made a decision and be completely opposed to it because your interests clash with mine.

Absolutely.

These devs are not owed support for their decisions.

All I'm saying is that I wish the discourse wasn't so tribal and toxic.

Posters were rather supportive of the Ooblets angle of needing the money and kept to to the very reasonable "I'll wait for the Steam release" until they read the entirety of the blog post and then later on the devs discord posts. That's when things got heated.

The blog post wasn't great, but would you rather that or boilerplate corporate speak statement.

I'm not saying this applies to you, but so many people complain about PR releases in the industry, but then whenever developers speak, they risk getting torn a new one just for not laying things out as gracefully as they should.

It's not like the Ooblets devs didn't empathise with people that didn't like the decision. That's not what the wording of their statement suggests at all.

I don't use EGS. I don't like Epics way of business and yet I also understand why developers ( less so publishers ) take the deals. Stability is good! It's a tough industry.

I have never wished anything but the best for them that take the deals it just hurts that I don't matter as a customer of said products

The lastest one that I felt a sting directly was Mechwarrior but I never had a go at the Devs.

It just sucks I now have to wait and it sucks that Devs are allowed to act condensing towards me for not agreeing with them.

I sympathise, I really do, but look at it from the dev's perspective on this in terms of what's at stake for them.
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,565
nah just a contingent of PC users on the internet, who imo are more likely to be loud about something like EGS than most others



yeah you're right, I just have more experience on the PC side since that's where i usually game
Yeah it's terrible in some subreddits, was glad that /r/games which I think is still quite good for news, banned all mention of PCMR. That's bullshit Nazi lingo.
 

Fid

Member
Jun 5, 2018
254
Detroit
If people want to be informed about something they don't know much about it would seem logical to at least try the minimum of effort before going. What's wrong with all this??

Imagine if someone wrote a multi-page PDF about why PS4 is better for the industry than Xbox and things like Gamepass and paying for Tomb Raider exclusivity were bad, presented it as unassailable fact, and insist that anyone who wanted to post in any threads about the Xbox read through the entire thing first.

There should be, like, one EGS thread with a really good, non-biased OP and some really strict guidelines for posting on either side, and then treat any discussion outside that thread the same way we do Console Warriors.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
It would help if we named and shamed some of the examples you're claiming in the OP, especially if they are of a meaningful amount and not just a few outliers.

What is the mod team doing about it?

I'm against name/shame as that usually makes people dig their heels in.

Important to note for mods:

1: They're volunteers
2: They mod when they can
3: Most decisions are group-made, not just one person striking out on their own

I am admittedly very disappointed we're back to what seems like the same argument, because this thread is specifically about the really bad situations that pop up, not the day to day things.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,771
Death threats and racist shit is ridiculous. Folks should be banned for that.

But EGS is trash. As a customer i want whats best for me. And if a dev or journo is pushing me to spend my money on inferior shit and then acting offended when I dont they should be told to fuck off.

People glamorize and have hero worship of these devs and journos. They want your money. And to me if you pushing me on some bullshit thats a worse experience for me because they get more money? Lol fuck outta here. Thats not how it works.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,822
Brazil
To me, the de facto argument of most consumers against EGS is "the benefit towards devs is irrelevant to me as a consumer if it harms my experience". I don't really see that as being too different when ppl come forward with "the lacks that EGS have compared to steam are irrelevant to me as a consumer since it does not affect my experience at all". Some ppl urge ppl to think of the developer benefit when it comes to EGS, but it's the same line of thinking when ppl urge consumers to think of other consumers even if the exclusivity doesn't really affect them in the day-to-day

I just don't think "Just another launcher" and "the lacks that EGS have compared to steam are irrelevant to me as a consumer since it does not affect my experience at all" is the same statement tho. The second one have a lot more context and aren't arguing against EGS criticism.

You're not downplaying other people by saying you aren't affected. You're not even saying the EGS store isn't bullshit. It just says that the store lack of functionality or regional problems doesn't affect you, doesn't imply your position about the matter.

Is not that i would regard any opinion that defends EGS as toxic. Maybe you think Epic are doing the right thing despite creating problems for a lot of consumers, and i can respect this opinion. But "Just another launcher" implies that anti-EGS people are Valve fanboys and that's the only reason someone wouldn't buy games at egs.
 

Deleted member 49438

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 7, 2018
1,473
It's ok to be on both sides of the debate as well. For example, I think Epic should have spent more time & money developing their launcher *before* they decided to go for exclusives, as it is clearly not feature complete & inferior when it comes to services. They would have avoided a significant amount of hate thate way.

However, I do like their 12% cut to dev & waiving unreal licensing fees, and I don't mind them giving cash infusions to indie games, so long as they haven't been funded via kickstarters that promised steam keys. In the cases where they do this, I'd like to see Epic go out of their way to ensure steam keys are provided to backers as well as their EGS version.

Overall, there is some good (mostly focused on the dev side), and some bad (mostly focused on the consumer side). There is merit on both sides of the conversation, but people would rather talk past each other than think about what could be done to improve the situation. Personally, I'm avoiding games on EGS until their platform is up to snuff, but I wouldn't force that view on anyone. I'd just like people to acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons to be against how Epic has gone about launching their store, just like I acknowledge that there are good things EGS is doing for devs as well.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,639
Death threats and racist shit is ridiculous. Folks should be banned for that.

But EGS is trash. As a customer i want whats best for me. And if a dev or journo is pushing me to spend my money on inferior shit and then acting offended when I dont they should be told to fuck off.

People glamorize and have hero worship of these devs and journos. They want your money. And to me if you pushing me on some bullshit thats a worse experience for me because they get more money? Lol fuck outta here. Thats not how it works.

Telling someone to fuck off or hero worship them are not your only two options. You can try being a civilized human being.
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,565
I was in that Ooblets thread and I bailed because it got too toxic, but I'll reiterate what I said there here.

The devs did not paint anyone disappointed with their decision as toxic people.

They painted toxic people as toxic people for behaving toxicly.

If you're not responding to their decision with toxic behaviour, then they're not talking about you, and if you think you are being spoken to, then perhaps some reflection is order.



Absolutely.

These devs are not owed support for their decisions.

All I'm saying is that I wish the discourse wasn't so tribal and toxic.
Anyone not buying their game now was proclaimed as a toxic gamer by them. I can't even buy their game now after them going exclusive. Shit is just tiring.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,663
If someone has to read the latest version of a 9-page PDF of subjective arguments presented as fact before they're allowed to enter a certain conversation, maybe the conversation isn't worth having anymore? Or at least not in multiple threads.
It not my fault they choose to come in to the topic that's been talked about for months completely ignorant. If they don't know shit about EGS at this point, they don't wanna know
Maybe the [SEE STAFF POST] needs to have a list of the most common arguments and why they're not as simple as that, then anyone who comments clearly not having read it can take a short ban

Even in this thread you still have people saying "come on guys it's just a launcher"
Agreed
 

jerf

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,237
Thanks for this. I won't even open a thread if it has Epic or THQ in the title anymore.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,091
Halifax, NS
People value some things more highly than other people do. Expecting Schreier (or anyone else for that matter) to sympathize with you every step of the way on a situation that is largely preferential is not going to end well.

Yes, that Ooblets PR guy was being a dick. That still doesn't excuse people calling him human trash or sending death threats to his company or sending death threats to Era mods. For fuck's sake, you can disagree with people without going for the killing blow, you know?

Person. A person in that thread was calling him human trash.

This is part of what I mean. The actions of a few extreme are being used to allow toxicity to flow one way but not the other. No one should be sending the Ooblets devs, or anybody, death threats. It's never justified, for any reason. But to see those death threats being used as justification for why legitimate issues are being dismissed? It doesn't matter that this isn't on the same "scale" as death threats, all it does is add further toxicity.

People do disagree without going for the killing blow, and they are dismissed wholesale. Time and time again.

Why is it that the consumer is decried in choosing to take actions for their own benefit? Or when they're forced into making a choice due to circumstances that the dev created (no access to games on EGS from China), why a dev would just turn their nose up at them as if to say "Well I don't really need you anymore"? Why should I be entitled to give that dev even an ounce of my time, money or respect at any point in the future?

There has to be an even balance between the wants of devs and the wants of consumers without either side resorting to just dismissing the other. The continued insistence that being anti-EGS is being toxic, as the Ooblets guy very clearly is insinuating, is not helping at all.
 
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Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,565
Imagine if someone wrote a multi-page PDF about why PS4 is better for the industry than Xbox and things like Gamepass and paying for Tomb Raider exclusivity were bad, presented it as unassailable fact, and insist that anyone who wanted to post in any threads about the Xbox read through the entire thing first.

There should be, like, one EGS thread with a really good, non-biased OP and some really strict guidelines for posting on either side, and then treat any discussion outside that thread the same way we do Console Warriors.
Yeah and who should write that? The mod team that in parts shows just as much lack of knowledge on the issue as other users?
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,242
Death threats and racist shit is ridiculous. Folks should be banned for that.

But EGS is trash. As a customer i want whats best for me. And if a dev or journo is pushing me to spend my money on inferior shit and then acting offended when I dont they should be told to fuck off.

People glamorize and have hero worship of these devs and journos. They want your money. And to me if you pushing me on some bullshit thats a worse experience for me because they get more money? Lol fuck outta here. Thats not how it works.

This thread really isn't about whether EGS is good or bad, or rehashing that same discussion. I think that's the op's point. You spend a throwaway sentence addressing the actual toxic elements surrounding these discussions and then devolve back into why you hate EGS, which is fine. Nowhere in the OP does it state that people who dislike EGS and their practices are wrong, or that viewpoint isn't valid.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,924
I was in that Ooblets thread and I bailed because it got too toxic, but I'll reiterate what I said there here.

The devs did not paint anyone disappointed with their decision as toxic people.

They painted toxic people as toxic people for behaving toxicly.

If you're not responding to their decision with toxic behaviour, then they're not talking about you, and if you think you are being spoken to, then perhaps some reflection is order.



Absolutely.

These devs are not owed support for their decisions.

All I'm saying is that I wish the discourse wasn't so tribal and toxic.



The blog post wasn't great, but would you rather that or boilerplate corporate speak statement.

I'm not saying this applies to you, but so many people complain about PR releases in the industry, but then whenever developers speak, they risk getting torn a new one just for not laying things out as gracefully as they should.

It's not like the Ooblets devs didn't empathise with people that didn't like the decision. That's not what the wording of their statement suggests at all.



I sympathise, I really do, but look at it from the dev's perspective on this in terms of what's at stake for them.

I didn't take the blog personally I felt it was extremely cheap and I was completely blindsided why they wanted a bigger target on themselves.

When they started telling people that don't agree with them that they shouldn't by the game or they were not needed that to me was a bridge too far it just felt like "fuck you we got ours" it's a toxic attitude.

I try to be self reflective about anything I post and I really do try and look at things from all sides.

My post history will show I have no issues with the devs taking the deals I totally get it. I think less of publishers that do it of course.

I don't even care about steam I just don't like the way epic does business in the PC space.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
I'm gonna think on this and save my input for later, because my immediate reaction is that it's hard for me to see this thread as anything but a place for gaslighting EGS skeptics, after the way you tried to make some of these points the other night. In the cloud save thread, where you openly blamed EGS skeptics for not showing up in droves to praise Epic for deploying a core feature many months later than they had promised they would, and framed that hesitation as evidence of our toxicity, of our need to hate. Those posts brought me the closest I've come to just walking away from this community for good, and I'm still here sitting on that fence.

.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
13,246
I'm against name/shame as that usually makes people dig their heels in.

Important to note for mods:

1: They're volunteers
2: They mod when they can
3: Most decisions are group-made, not just one person striking out on their own

I am admittedly very disappointed we're back to what seems like the same argument, because this thread is specifically about the really bad situations that pop up, not the day to day things.

Without naming and shaming, yes, this thread comes across as gaslighting because it accomplishes very little.

We don't know how prevalent the issues outlined in the thread are on Era without naming and shaming.

We don't know how the mod team has handled the issue, and if it is prevalent, who slipped through the cracks without naming and shaming.

If the purpose of the thread is to bring this issue to light, but not only that, actively work to fix it, we need to expose the awful people who parade these arguments around.

Otherwise, all this thread will do is serve as a pat on the back and vague comments about how Era is so toxic.
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,918
San Francisco
It would help if we named and shamed some of the examples you're claiming in the OP, especially if they are of a meaningful amount and not just a few outliers.

What is the mod team doing about it?

Well for example we had a prominent member post back to back threads this morning attacking individual people for supporting EGS on Twitter. The threads were closed but I didn't see anyone catch any action.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,176
I just don't think "Just another launcher" and "the lacks that EGS have compared to steam are irrelevant to me as a consumer since it does not affect my experience at all" is the same statement tho. The second one have a lot more context and aren't arguing against EGS criticism.

You're not downplaying other people by saying you aren't affected. You're not even saying the EGS store isn't bullshit. It just says that the store lack of functionality or regional problems doesn't affect you, doesn't imply your position about the matter.

Is not that i would regard any opinion that defends EGS as toxic. Maybe you think Epic are doing the right thing despite creating problems for a lot of consumers, and i can respect this opinion. But "Just another launcher" just implies that anti-EGS people are Valve fanboys and that's the only reason someone wouldn't buy games at egs.

I definitely get this, and it's pretty frustrating to see a post like that especially if you are knowledgeable about the issue and affected by it. But i legitimately don't think the phrase implies what you're saying here, like I don't disagree that there are drive-by trolly posts in that vein but it literally is just another launcher for a lot of people, and for those ppl it's perfectly understandable why they just feel like everyone is crazy talking at each other. In general I don't think ppl mad at these posts will be thick-skinned enough to give the benefit of the doubt (in general I don't think the demo of era is cut out for too much emotional labor), but I also don't think the "it's just a launcher" sentiments will disappear anytime soon because that is legitimately the way a lot of ppl are experiencing having to play an exclusive on EGS
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
I'm gonna outright say that I don't really appreciate being accused of gaslighting people with this thread

I didn't exactly take a lot of joy in making it
I definitely didn't want to try to relive all the personal stuff that came my way, that's for certain

Gaslighting implies emotional manipulation
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
This bothers me *so much*. The Ooblets dev was a little snarky, sure (TBH I thought the blog post was more playful than mean), but the response here was disproportionate. Frequently calling them "trash people" and "fuck them" and so on. I don't understand why this type of language is allowed. It's literally hate. Over someone being a little bit confrontational when talking about their decision of how to publish their game. Most forms of hate (like racial hate) are not allowed here, so why is this?

I think they went far beyond snarky in discord chat which made them unsympathetic as hell.

They foolishly came out with snark in a situation where they could have have actually came out looking relatively clean and continued to antagonise people in their own discord and forums.

In any other situation where these guys worked for a company, they would have gotten the boot so whilst I agree that they didn't deserve being called human trash at the beginning they certainly were dumb-asses by the end of the debacle.

The lesson here being dont poke the internet bear because people on the internet are assholes and dont become an asshole when said poking causes an avalanche.PR/Employee/Functional Adult 101.
 

neon/drifter

Shit Shoe Wasp Smasher
Member
Apr 3, 2018
4,071
Imagine wanting to dox and threaten someone's life and livelihood because of their opinion of a video game storefront.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,679
México
After GamerGate (which was made up for toxic reasons by toxic people, for the record) I think journalists have become scared to ever associate with any gamer backlash no matter how justified

That movement also abused the term "anti-consumer", which was code for "I'm not getting what I want and will not concede not one bit in benefit of others". There is a whole conversation to be had about what really is "anti-consumer" and what is just an inconvenience.
 

ElOdyssey

Member
Oct 30, 2017
713
Competition is a good thing. This will force Steam to do better but on the other side of things EGS is pretty barebones in terms of features. Although getting free games is REALLY nice and honestly the only reason I have it on my PC.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,924
Imagine if someone wrote a multi-page PDF about why PS4 is better for the industry than Xbox and things like Gamepass and paying for Tomb Raider exclusivity were bad, presented it as unassailable fact, and insist that anyone who wanted to post in any threads about the Xbox read through the entire thing first.

There should be, like, one EGS thread with a really good, non-biased OP and some really strict guidelines for posting on either side, and then treat any discussion outside that thread the same way we do Console Warriors.

I think you framing this as it only at the level of conversation as a console war is really unfair.

There are always warriors but I see a lot of well thought out posts too.

I think era takes the new news new thread in general so I don't know if hiding it all away in one thread is a fair unbias position. But this site isn't a democracy so I will support whatever is decided I guess.

And honestly if I saw a thread about why Sony was better for the Industry than Xbox I would want to read that document before I posted so I wouldn't just have a gut reaction to the thread title.

I would rather be informed than go in saying but guys don't you know that Xbox is the Lord and saviour because I like them or I don't see the issue
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,565
Sure. Wouldn't be perfect but it'd be a hell of a lot better than what we're doing now.
Tbqh that would completely stop me from engaging in the gaming side anymore. There have been instances where the mod team made decisions that went completely against what I expected (banning a user getting angry for getting framed as a racist).
 

Barnak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,066
Canada
All this outrage, toxicity and threats over a store launcher and its exclusivities... This is the kind of reactions you'd expect over a murdered baby or anything else truly disgusting and villainous. You can show your disappointment over these things without regressing to the kind of shit you'd expect from Twitter or YouTube comments.

People who act this way really need to rethink about themselves and just... breath. Damn.
 

Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
I'll remember how this thread was handled for a long time.

EGS using SteamVR for Tetris Effect

OP got banned for defending himself, while aggressively, for being insinuated as a racist because "We get it, you don't like EGS, because China I guess.".

The poster that made those allegations edited her post shortly before OP was banned, like after four request to edit said post, and got away scot-free. I still don't understand how that happened.

I think it's fair to say that guidelines for EGS threads need to be clearer and applied in a more fair manner, no matter the user. That way perhaps everyone could behave properly.

That's pretty much my last input here for any EGS matters, because those threads end up being messes more often than not.
 
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neonneongod

Member
Feb 21, 2019
294
Growing pains. People are mad for two reasons, I think: the first being the obvious "The store sucks." It does. I use it every day to play games I bought on EGS (well, not every day, but plenty) and for Fortnite when I get around to it. Finding games is hard since it's a big-ass scroll wheel and page with no delineation of what's out and what's not, new, old, etc. I mean, I could go on about how it sucks, not least of which because I am a customer of Epic. I've bought into their platform, and my use informs the "it sucks" opinion. But, just like people don't have to smoke cigarettes themselves to learn that smoking is bad, so too do people not have to be an EGS customer like myself to know this.

The second reason is a bit stranger: I think most people know that what Epic is doing works, and it's strong-arming them. It's working more-or-less just like Epic said it would; they toss around their giant E-dick pinata stuffed with Fortnite monies, little indy children smack it a couple times, and out the front blows enough cash to get people to sign on any dotted line in front of them. Eventually they'll hit that one game you were *really* invested in, emotionally, and you'll probably (though not always, you principled few) bend and break. It's scary to realize that EGS isn't trying to "break" in anymore, they've already more-or-less done it, and all it took was shitting on consumers faces and preying on the fear of developers to get there. 'murica!

Okay, so why am I using it if I think it's shit and feel all sorta ways about it? One, I'm not, like, a super principled person. Hell, I broke the second I saw a Supergiant game, duders. That was, like, day 1, or something. The other reason is their free-game stuff; I have this library composed, now, primarily of free games. And not, like, $2 games. Say what you will, but on a consumer front, the free games thing has been kinda awesome, even if it's just another tactic as far as Epic's concerned. Also, the knowledge that exclusives are going this way means that I get to play them without waiting a year so they can sit in my other game library. I have a finite life-span, so I'm not willing to wait a year to tell Epic to fuck themselves.

BUT. Fuck telling other people what to do with their money and their time. If they don't want to give Epic a cent, I'm not going to try to make them feel differently about what Epic is doing. I mean, you know, they're mostly right about it. It is information collection, it is -- right now -- mostly anti-consumer, it is making games unavailable to many, it is run by near as I can tell a manchild. Steam is a way better store. We need to be able to acknowledge why people are making decisions for themselves as consumers, and not like totally lose our shit about that. So, yeah, I agree with the broader criticism of, we're losing a bit of our soul in this discussion. But I also know for a fact that the passion people have about how badly the Epic store sucks isn't made out of thin air. Look, I hate the term "both sides" for reasons anyone in Off-topic would understand, but maybe it applies here: maybe I'll learn from you, you'll learn from me, and we'll meet somewhere in a middle that says "Epic store sucks" but that's ok. It's ok.
this, right here.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
UK
If someone has to read the latest version of a 9-page PDF of subjective arguments presented as fact before they're allowed to enter a certain conversation, maybe the conversation isn't worth having anymore? Or at least not in multiple threads.

It's not as simple as that. Imagine it's 1991 and every time someone makes a thread about a SNES game 5 people come in and post "The SNES is so slow and doesn't have BLAST PROCESSING"

Then the thread would devolve into people talking about that being marketing and not a real thing, people talking about specs, and people trolling to stoke the fires

That is pretty much what happens in EGS threads when people say "It's just another launcher"

In a way, it is just another launcher, but that is ignoring a lot of context and therefore needs to be explained, over and over. Naturally people get sick and tired of explaining why there is an issue, and that encourages trolls to join in to make things even worse

Personally I'm happy for the devs that benefit from the EGS, but can completely see where PC gamers are coming from with their complaints. I don't really trust Epic to always act on the consumers behalf, but I'm hopeful their conduct and store will improve with time
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,830
I'm gonna outright say that I don't really appreciate being accused of gaslighting people with this thread

I didn't exactly take a lot of joy in making it
I definitely didn't want to try to relive all the personal stuff that came my way, that's for certain

Gaslighting implies emotional manipulation

You were pointing out the obvious. People that are accusing you of gaslighting don't seem to feel the bad behavior in question was out of line.
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,565
I'll remember how this thread was handled for a long time.

EGS using SteamVR for Tetris Effect

OP got banned for defending himself, while aggressively, for being insinuated as a racist because "We get it, you don't like EGS, because China I guess.".

The poster that made those allegations edited her post right after OP was banned and got away scot-free. I still don't understand how that happened.

I think it's fair to say that guidelines for EGS threads need to be clearer and applied in a more fair manner, no matter the user. That way perhaps everyone could behave properly.

That's pretty much my last input here for any EGS matters, because those threads end up being messes more often than not.
Reasoning was a low post count.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,924
Telling someone to fuck off or hero worship them are not your only two options. You can try being a civilized human being.

It sucks... I saw someone in the other thread talk about removing your game simply because you don't feel strongly about EGS. I mean it read like a spit in the face... I wish I called them out for it now I think about it.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,611
Competition is a good thing. This will force Steam to do better but on the other side of things EGS is pretty barebones in terms of features. Although getting free games is REALLY nice and honestly the only reason I have it on my PC.
Since EGS isn't competing on features I doubt it really does anything to help improve Steam. Might make Valve buy up exclusives themselves and further close up the pc platform
 

OnionPowder

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,323
Orlando, FL
I'll remember how this thread was handled for a long time.

EGS using SteamVR for Tetris Effect

OP got banned for defending himself, while aggressively, for being insinuated as a racist because "We get it, you don't like EGS, because China I guess.".

The poster that made those allegations edited her post right after OP was banned and got away scot-free. I still don't understand how that happened.

I think it's fair to say that guidelines for EGS threads need to be clearer and applied in a more fair manner, no matter the user. That way perhaps everyone could behave properly.

That's pretty much my last input here for any EGS matters, because those threads end up being messes more often than not.

That's not a realistic take on the situation.

"Like, I get it, you hate Epic because China or competition or whatever " they didn't only say you don't like because of China. They listed off some of the common complaints.

It's not like that was pulled out of their ass. There's a post complaining about Tencent / China on the first page of this very thread.
 

LQX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,871
With this whole debacle I think I'm more "upset" with the "gaming press" than I am at Epic or devs taking these exclusive deals. There seems to be no advocacy for consumers and a purposely disingenuous as to why some some consumers might take issue with what Epic is doing. They all seem to think it is just because some consumers don't what to use another launcher. It's that, but it's more than that.

Also, the vitriol is not one sided as the OP is trying to make it seem. I see it from both sides.
 

The Bookerman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,124
I'm gonna outright say that I don't really appreciate being accused of gaslighting people with this thread

I didn't exactly take a lot of joy in making it
I definitely didn't want to try to relive all the personal stuff that came my way, that's for certain

Gaslighting implies emotional manipulation

I don't see how you did that. You're pointing out that people are acting uncivilized.

I wish you well man. Nobody should get that type of treatment.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,757
Tokyo
Maybe the [SEE STAFF POST] needs to have a list of the most common arguments and why they're not as simple as that, then anyone who comments clearly not having read it can take a short ban

Even in this thread you still have people saying "come on guys it's just a launcher"

I like this suggestion. Every thread ends up in a heated discussion. Hell the MechWarrior 5 one went crazy. Now this is overkill, but maybe until things cool down, before posting a thread that deals with EGS run it through with a mod? I honestly have no real idea how to not make such a thread not get heated because people rightfully get pissed once a game they are looking forward to goes exclusive to Epic.
 

Deleted member 6263

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
I'll remember how this thread was handled for a long time.

EGS using SteamVR for Tetris Effect

OP got banned for defending himself, while aggressively, for being insinuated as a racist because "We get it, you don't like EGS, because China I guess.".

The poster that made those allegations edited her post right after OP was banned and got away scot-free. I still don't understand how that happened.

I think it's fair to say that guidelines for EGS threads need to be clearer and applied in a more fair manner, no matter the user. That way perhaps everyone could behave properly.

That's pretty much my last input here for any EGS matters, because those threads end up being messes more often than not.
First time reading through that thread, that was a ride. Krejlooc is one of the nicest dudes on Era so to see posts like that manipulated in that way made me feel dirty.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,158
Chesire, UK
The simplest "solution" would be to ban discussion or promotion of the EGS.

Of course it's not really a solution, because there's plenty of toxicity to go around on other topics, but it would dampen down a flashpoint.
 

TioChuck

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,231
São Paulo, Brazil
Growing pains. People are mad for two reasons, I think: the first being the obvious "The store sucks." It does. I use it every day to play games I bought on EGS (well, not every day, but plenty) and for Fortnite when I get around to it. Finding games is hard since it's a big-ass scroll wheel and page with no delineation of what's out and what's not, new, old, etc. I mean, I could go on about how it sucks, not least of which because I am a customer of Epic. I've bought into their platform, and my use informs the "it sucks" opinion. But, just like people don't have to smoke cigarettes themselves to learn that smoking is bad, so too do people not have to be an EGS customer like myself to know this.

The second reason is a bit stranger: I think most people know that what Epic is doing works, and it's strong-arming them. It's working more-or-less just like Epic said it would; they toss around their giant E-dick pinata stuffed with Fortnite monies, little indy children smack it a couple times, and out the front blows enough cash to get people to sign on any dotted line in front of them. Eventually they'll hit that one game you were *really* invested in, emotionally, and you'll probably (though not always, you principled few) bend and break. It's scary to realize that EGS isn't trying to "break" in anymore, they've already more-or-less done it, and all it took was shitting on consumers faces and preying on the fear of developers to get there. 'murica!

Okay, so why am I using it if I think it's shit and feel all sorta ways about it? One, I'm not, like, a super principled person. Hell, I broke the second I saw a Supergiant game, duders. That was, like, day 1, or something. The other reason is their free-game stuff; I have this library composed, now, primarily of free games. And not, like, $2 games. Say what you will, but on a consumer front, the free games thing has been kinda awesome, even if it's just another tactic as far as Epic's concerned. Also, the knowledge that exclusives are going this way means that I get to play them without waiting a year so they can sit in my other game library. I have a finite life-span, so I'm not willing to wait a year to tell Epic to fuck themselves.

BUT. Fuck telling other people what to do with their money and their time. If they don't want to give Epic a cent, I'm not going to try to make them feel differently about what Epic is doing. I mean, you know, they're mostly right about it. It is information collection, it is -- right now -- mostly anti-consumer, it is making games unavailable to many, it is run by near as I can tell a manchild. Steam is a way better store. We need to be able to acknowledge why people are making decisions for themselves as consumers, and not like totally lose our shit about that. So, yeah, I agree with the broader criticism of, we're losing a bit of our soul in this discussion. But I also know for a fact that the passion people have about how badly the Epic store sucks isn't made out of thin air. Look, I hate the term "both sides" for reasons anyone in Off-topic would understand, but maybe it applies here: maybe I'll learn from you, you'll learn from me, and we'll meet somewhere in a middle that says "Epic store sucks" but that's ok. It's ok.

This is it.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,611
Well for example we had a prominent member post back to back threads this morning attacking individual people for supporting EGS on Twitter. The threads were closed but I didn't see anyone catch any action.
Are we looking at the same threads? Where is the attack by this prominent member?
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
I'm against name/shame as that usually makes people dig their heels in.

Important to note for mods:

1: They're volunteers
2: They mod when they can
3: Most decisions are group-made, not just one person striking out on their own

I am admittedly very disappointed we're back to what seems like the same argument, because this thread is specifically about the really bad situations that pop up, not the day to day things.
If you dont name/shame/report/ban people will continue to just make broad generalisations of the other side. The point of having discussions in public iss so that people can rightly tear holes into your opinion when its toxic or doesnt make any sense. If we start protecting the real harassers then the discussion looses its reason for existing and people go back to fighting each other.

I appreciate the courage it took to make this thread but you need to follow through with these sorts of threads.
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,565
That's not a realistic take on the situation.

"Like, I get it, you hate Epic because China or competition or whatever " they didn't only say you don't like because of China. They listed off some of the common complaints.

It's not like that was pulled out of their ass. There's a post complaining about Tencent / China on the first page of this very thread.
So would it be okay to say all US Americans are racists because Trump is? The user who insinuated the racism hasn't posted a single time outside of that single thread makes it transparent as hell. Yes there are crazies who do get racist towards China (though I sometimes fail to understand how critizing Tencent equates to being racist against Chinese) but those get banned almost immediately.