From the 60s until 2017/2018 (germans left the programm in 1990 so it was US only since then).But how long did it last? The quotes make it sound like it's been over for a while.
So listening to civilians being thrown out of airplanes over the atlantic is statecraft now?100%. Theres no morality in state craft, might as well admire efficient use of power and laugh at the stupidity of others.
Honestly, pretty brilliant. Like most spy craft, highly illegal and immoral. But smart as hell.
Have this comment pack to end any thread about counter inteligence from now on.
Huh?This comment pack is the best justification for having the best possible counter-intelligence, so no.
Have this comment pack to end any thread about counter inteligence from now on.
Someone (you) has no idea about the global order the U.S.A has envisioned, it seems.A very substantial and intelligent response, thank you.
Ah, a classic "both sides". I understand your concerns, but to suggest that the US and China are even remotely comparable with regard to the domestic and global order they envision and have promoted is ridiculous.
So listening to civilians being thrown out of airplanes over the atlantic is statecraft now?
Have this comment pack to end any thread about counter intelligence from now on.
This comment pack is the best justification for having the best possible counter-intelligence, so no. But least you guys are approaching the point.
What exactly did you want the US or West Germany to do? Literally every country with an intelligence agency hears horrible things all the time, but for the most part do not have the actual ability to act on even half of what they hear. Things are murkier now with drones, but naturally even those have their own host of issues.So listening to civilians being thrown out of airplanes over the atlantic is statecraft now?
Reading the WaPo article they don't even bring it up?You forgot the guy admiring efficient uses of power a.k.a people getting thrown out of airplanes.
So china actively supressing social freedoms = bad
US passively supressing social freedoms = good?
If I were trying to defend the US government, the global order they've tried to enforce over the last century is the last thing I would bring up.A very substantial and intelligent response, thank you.
Ah, a classic "both sides". I understand your concerns, but to suggest that the US and China are even remotely comparable with regard to the domestic and global order they envision and have promoted is ridiculous.
For all the evidence we have the US has been far more infringing on peoples rights in the last century but i guess it's "smart" or "badass" when it is foreigners affectedWhile US has a metric shitton of problems let not compare it to China in those regards.
What the actual fuck. The US Government deserves all the fucking distrust they get, dont they?
generally i try to tailor my posts to the level of the ones I am responding to
The papers largely avoid more unsettling questions, including what the United States knew — and what it did or didn't do — about countries that used Crypto machines while engaged in assassination plots, ethnic cleansing campaigns and human rights abuses.
The revelations in the documents may provide reason to revisit whether the United States was in position to intervene in, or at least expose, international atrocities, and whether it opted against doing so at times to preserve its access to valuable streams of intelligence.
In 1982, the Reagan administration took advantage of Argentina's reliance on Crypto equipment, funneling intelligence to Britain during the two countries brief war over the Falkland Islands, according to the CIA history, which doesn't provide any detail on what kind of information was passed to London. The documents generally discuss intelligence gleaned from the operation in broad terms and provide few insights into how it was used.
Not sure if if is in the WaPo report but according to ZDF the US and germans also kept quiet about state murder (example is argentina in the 70s where they had evidence the military junta threw people out of planes over the atlantic)they were observing through this.
They also used this tech in chile during the 70s to topple the regime.
They had troop movements of the argentinians during the falkland war and helped the UK.
They used this to extract intel from iran during the hostage crisis.
They also surveiled allies like ireland, portugal or spain. Germans apparently were against this.
Germans left the program during reunification but the CIA kept it going until 2017.
While US has a metric shitton of problems let not compare it to China in those regards.
For all the evidence we have the US has been far more infringing on peoples rights in the last century but i guess it's "smart" or "badass" when it is foreigners affected
Indeed. I mean they did put this intelligence to good use, such as aiding the British in the Falklands War.What exactly did you want the US or West Germany to do? Literally every country with an intelligence agency hears horrible things all the time, but for the most part do not have the actual ability to act on even half of what they hear. Things are murkier now with drones, but naturally even those have their own host of issues.
Us officials have done everything but scream from the rooftops that this is exactly what Huawei is
Have this comment pack to end any thread about counter intelligence from now on.
Pick the one that's the greater evil to you.So china actively supressing social freedoms = bad
US passively supressing social freedoms = good?
What the actual fuck. The US Government deserves all the fucking distrust they get, dont they?
but yeah the usa and china are so different. one variety of regime changes, coups, assassinations, and ethnic cleansing is good and the other is you know. bad.
Most Governments though dont have these kinds of resources. To infringe on other nations privacy etc without FEAR of REPRISALS. Well, that sounds like it takes a special kind of asshole to run the US Government. I'm sure this worked out quite well with Israel selling secrets to foreign Governments like South Africa during apartheid (Rooivulk and AH60 projects) or other covert intelligence dealings involving business and investment etc. Theres a side to this we arent seeing.
Give me one piece of evidence of a country stealing billions of international communications per day that is not the US
generally i try to tailor my posts to the level of the ones I am responding to
also because no one here clapping about this actually seems to have read the article (and I am simply being charitable in this assumption because this is already being discussed):
among the many other things that the program enabled that has already been brought up and you might have seen if you actually read the thread (again, very charitably assuming no):
but yeah the usa and china are so different. one variety of regime changes, coups, assassinations, and ethnic cleansing is good and the other is you know. bad.
it's not about what the us 'is', this conversation is explicitly about what the cia and the us government either were complicit in or directly enabled. for all of the ccp's many faults and human rights abuses it's probably a lot less responsible for south/central american lives than the cia and the usa isOh yes that I agree on, but compared to human rights and what is happening today China is by far much worse then the US is. So you have to take that into context when the different countries do intelligence gathering, while both are bad and horrible, one is using it to fill death camps for muslims and throw dissisents into jail.
i thought that was being suggested when the only defense for the substantially more muted response to a decades long spy operation involved with killing or imprisoning at least tens of thousands of people is that of course it's different if china were doing it instead. it's just different.Nobody has said anything of the sort, but by all means, have fun arguing with a straw man.
About to go ask my Iraq War refugee friend if he thinks the US or China is a greater evil.Oh yes that I agree on, but compared to human rights and what is happening today China is by far much worse then the US is. So you have to take that into context when the different countries do intelligence gathering, while both are bad and horrible, one is using it to fill death camps for muslims and throw dissisents into jail.
Those foreigners don't countAbout to go ask my Iraq War refugee friend if he thinks the US or China is a greater evil.
It's ok, I have bad takes too. Everyone does. But this is not 'badass', it's frightening.
Yours is the most sensible of the bunch, it's just that these stories of widespread spy operations seem so common place nowadays that i don't even know what to do or how to react.
About to go ask my Iraq War refugee friend if he thinks the US or China is a greater evil.
Give me one piece of evidence of a country stealing billions of international communications per day that is not the US
Why do i have to choose between hitler and stalin?
It's ok, I have bad takes too. Everyone does. But this is not 'badass', it's frightening.
The nations the US has invaded or destabilized don't enjoy those things. Do they not count to you?The only reason people say USA ok China bad is because we have much more personal freedom and more advancements/regulations in medicine, hygiene, and overall health.
That's the whole point of my statement. Both are evil but yes unfortunately you have to choose in this reality as both are vying for your displacement. And both are effecting you in some type of way in this world.Why do I have to choose? Can people not think both governments do terrible things?
The nations the US has invaded or destabilized don't enjoy those things. Do they not count to you?
That's the whole point of my statement. Both are evil but yes unfortunately you have to choose in this reality as both are vying for your displacement. And both are effecting you in some type of way in this world.