WaPo: AOC to endorse Bernie Sanders for President

shinra-bansho · Oct 17, 2019

brainchild said:
Yeah, Iowa is still a toss up. Here's the latest Yougov poll for Iowa. Even Pete could pull through there.

This really need the context of their September results.

Their tracking is probably just lagging on Selzer I would hazard.
I'm fully aware that Sanders is not going to drop out. He's flush with cash and has a core floor of support.
But he's also demonstrated a ceiling, and his numbers are going in the wrong direction.

danm999 · Oct 17, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Politicians lose, polls aren't magic which can't be overridden by electoral bullshit. George W Bush won under similar circumstances with the Supreme Court. What the electability argument did get right was that more people voted for her for president.

Shelbyville Milhouse · Oct 17, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Take it up with the Electoral College, not Hillary.

How about both

Ichthyosaurus · Oct 17, 2019

Fantastapotamus said:
How about both

Because one was correct and the other was bullshit.

danm999 said:

Getting rid of it is ore complicated than you think, and the Dems need get the chance from voters to get a 2/3rd majority in congress, and that's iffy in itself because not every Democrat will toe that line. Hillary openly complaining about in the media would change nothing, if anything it'd make her look like a sore loser.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/22/7056...ge-would-be-more-complicated-than-it-may-seem

It's the law, it's not a suggestion.

danm999 · Oct 17, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Getting rid of it is ore complicated than you think, and the Dems need get the chance from voters to get a 2/3rd majority in congress, and that's iffy in itself because not every Democrat will toe that line. Hillary openly complaining about in the media would change nothing, if anything it'd make her look like a sore loser.

Not saying the Electoral College is the bad rule (though it IS a bad rule), I'm saying if your rule of electability is someone who did not get elected, it isn't a good rule now is it.

Bad_Boy · Oct 17, 2019

I like bernie. I really do. But i cant pretend like the age isnt a concern. He better have a dope ass VP pick.

Ichthyosaurus · Oct 17, 2019

danm999 said:
Not saying the Electoral College is the bad rule (though it IS a bad rule), I'm saying if your rule of electability is someone who did not get elected, it isn't a good rule now is it.

Because it's science, not magic. Popularity is the best testability for politicians until we get something else, but for now we're stuck with it.

danm999 · Oct 17, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Because it's science, not magic. Popularity is the best testability for politicians until we get something else, but for now we're stuck with it.

If the concept of electability doesn't work you can abandon it, you aren't stuck with it, it's not herpes.

y2dvd · Oct 17, 2019

I don't understand this concern trolling of the squad not moving the needle. They haven't even actively campaigned yet. They are going to reach a lot of people that have yet to side with or have heard of Bernie. Unless the thought is the squad would be abandon by white liberals which seems to be the case in this very thread, then I can see that. A lot of the work will to also grab nonvoters and not just existing ones.

KuwabaraTheMan · Oct 17, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Take it up with the Electoral College, not Hillary.

It's a shame they invented the Electoral College on November 7th, 2016, leaving Clinton no time to react to its existence and plan an election strategy around it.

Ichthyosaurus · Oct 17, 2019

KuwabaraTheMan said:
It's a shame they invented the Electoral College on November 7th, 2016, leaving Clinton no time to react to its existence and plan an election strategy around it.

She should have planned better around it, I agree. However, its really strange why you're blaming her for its existence when Trump's the one who abused it to win. It's not like the Democrats had 2/3rd congress to vote it into oblivion while Obama was in office, or other pressing needs because the country was recovering from George W Bush.

KuwabaraTheMan · Oct 17, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
She should have planned better around it, I agree. However, its really strange why you're blaming her for its existence when Trump's the one who abused it to win. It's not like the Democrats had 2/3rd congress to vote it into oblivion while Obama was in office, or other pressing needs because the country was recovering from George W Bush.

I'm not blaming her for the Electoral College existing; I'm blaming her for not visiting Wisconsin while she was trying to run the score up in Arizona and Texas.

alexiswrite · Oct 17, 2019

shinra-bansho said:
This really need the context of their September results.

Their tracking is probably just lagging on Selzer I would hazard.
I'm fully aware that Sanders is not going to drop out. He's flush with cash and has a core floor of support.
But he's also demonstrated a ceiling, and his numbers are going in the wrong direction.

It also looks like an outlier. If you average out the results Bernie is way lower. Yougov is the only pollster that has him in the 20s.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primaries/democratic/iowa/

Baji Boxer · Oct 17, 2019

Reminder that Iowa is a caucus, and the rules are a bit different this year. That means polling may be less accurate than usual. They've added "virtual caucuses" joined by phone or computer, which will account for 10% of the delegates.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/06/08/po...oll/index.html?r=https://www.google.com/&rm=1

Tracygill · Oct 18, 2019

I think this could be one of the many reasons why they choose to endorse Sanders instead of Warren.

Boiled Goose · Oct 18, 2019

fauxtrot said:
Remember just the other day when folks here were saying she was going to endorse Warren lmao

Who the hell would believe that?? Do people follow politics at all?

Boiled Goose · Oct 18, 2019

Sweeney Swift said:
Yep. Makes me reconsider my planned vote for her when she's eligible too

Lol. Socialists endorsing socialists is a surprise to people? Did people really expect aoc to endorse anyone else while Sanders was still in the race?

Nappuccino · Oct 18, 2019

Sweeney Swift said:
Yep. Makes me reconsider my planned vote for her when she's eligible too

I mean, ok. But also it's kind of our fault for having so few members with experience who fill a stopgap between old decrepid people and newbies who are *checks notes* a mayor?

y2dvd · Oct 18, 2019

Tracygill said:
I think this could be one of the many reasons why they choose to endorse Sanders instead of Warren.

Foreign affairs doesn't seem to matter much to Warren supporters and is why Bernie still gets the check mark from me. Bernie always had the better position. Easily why Omar endorsed him.

SurrenderDorothy · Oct 18, 2019

Tracygill said:
I think this could be one of the many reasons why they choose to endorse Sanders instead of Warren.

And dumbasses were expecting Ilhan to endorse this ghoul.
Good grief.

Kusagari · Oct 18, 2019

Tracygill said:
I think this could be one of the many reasons why they choose to endorse Sanders instead of Warren.

The Politico article flat out states Ilhan endorsed him because of foreign policy.

DOT_mjo · Oct 18, 2019

Tracygill said:
I think this could be one of the many reasons why they choose to endorse Sanders instead of Warren.

and people on this forum continuously tell me that EWarren is more progressive than Bernie lol.

Deleted member 16876 · Oct 18, 2019

Tracygill said:
I think this could be one of the many reasons why they choose to endorse Sanders instead of Warren.

Every time someone says Warren is better or "is the same as Bernie" I shake my head. This is why.

Not only that, you get people saying since she is the "same" as Bernie, they will vote for her because she is a woman thinking they are somehow more progresive.

A woman president would be really cool. However, neither Warren or Hillary should be that woman.

Tfritz · Oct 18, 2019

Kusagari said:
The Politico article flat out states Ilhan endorsed him because of foreign policy.

wait, Ilhan agrees with Bernie that the Mean Ol' UN is just too hard on poor little Israel? She agrees with him using finger quotes when he talks about Israel's human rights violations? That's pretty messed up, I thought she was really cool on foreign policy, but I guess she's like every other shitty American politician.

Maxim726x · Oct 18, 2019

y2dvd said:
I don't understand this concern trolling of the squad not moving the needle. They haven't even actively campaigned yet. They are going to reach a lot of people that have yet to side with or have heard of Bernie. Unless the thought is the squad would be abandon by white liberals which seems to be the case in this very thread, then I can see that. A lot of the work will to also grab nonvoters and not just existing ones.

Well... Because historically, endorsements mean jack shit.

It's not concern trolling. It's just the way it's always worked. Why would this be any different?

Latpri · Oct 18, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
She should have planned better around it, I agree. However, its really strange why you're blaming her for its existence when Trump's the one who abused it to win. It's not like the Democrats had 2/3rd congress to vote it into oblivion while Obama was in office, or other pressing needs because the country was recovering from George W Bush.

Trump did not abuse the electoral college to win, he used it to win as those are the rules in place. Yes, it's incredibly stupid but Clinton knew of it's existence and the importance it put on states like Michigan. She didn't campaign there at her own peril.

Darkspellmaster · Oct 18, 2019

Tfritz said:
wait, Ilhan agrees with Bernie that the Mean Ol' UN is just too hard on poor little Israel? She agrees with him using finger quotes when he talks about Israel's human rights violations? That's pretty messed up, I thought she was really cool on foreign policy, but I guess she's like every other shitty American politician.

So wait was he saying that Israel did nothing wrong?

y2dvd · Oct 18, 2019

Maxim726x said:
Well... Because historically, endorsements mean jack shit.

It's not concern trolling. It's just the way it's always worked. Why would this be any different?

Theoretically, if she supported Warren, can you with all honesty tell me if the reactions from the same posters would be the same as it is now or would it be glowing?

chirt · Oct 18, 2019

Tfritz said:
wait, Ilhan agrees with Bernie that the Mean Ol' UN is just too hard on poor little Israel? She agrees with him using finger quotes when he talks about Israel's human rights violations? That's pretty messed up, I thought she was really cool on foreign policy, but I guess she's like every other shitty American politician.

What in the world is this

Tfritz · Oct 18, 2019

chirt said:
What in the world is this

like the un does fuck all to actually check israel, but apparently that's too much for bernie (it's ok, he didn't write the letter, it's not the letter he would have personally written, he just signed the letter to endorse its contents which is a very different thing!), and also what about saudia arabia???

Maxim726x · Oct 18, 2019

y2dvd said:
Theoretically, if she supported Warren, can you with all honesty tell me if the reactions from the same posters would be the same as it is now or would it be glowing?

I can't speak for everyone, but I would have the same exact reaction.

Cool, I guess... But ultimately meaningless.

y2dvd · Oct 18, 2019

Maxim726x said:
I can't speak for everyone, but I would have the same exact reaction.

Cool, I guess... But ultimately meaningless.

If that is your honest answer then fair enough. At the very least, it doesn't hurt his chances.

Maxim726x · Oct 18, 2019

y2dvd said:
If that is your honest answer then fair enough. At the very least, it doesn't hurt his chances.

No, it certainly won't hurt. On that we agree.

Steel · Oct 18, 2019

y2dvd said:
Theoretically, if she supported Warren, can you with all honesty tell me if the reactions from the same posters would be the same as it is now or would it be glowing?

Personally I'd be surprised, but not think it's a particularly good move or big deal. Then again, if you check my post history I've never been that glowing about AOC nor am I a Warren fan.

Snowy · Oct 18, 2019

Tfritz said:
like the un does fuck all to actually check israel, but apparently that's too much for bernie (it's ok, he didn't write the letter, it's not the letter he would have personally written, he just signed the letter to endorse its contents which is a very different thing!), and also what about saudia arabia???

Most Leftists criticize him for this, but they also acknowledge that in plenty of other ways, he is the only mainstream presidential candidate that is even critical of Israel. This is setting aside the many other ways in which he is a good ally on anti-imperialist foreign policy matters.

This is what people don't understand when they say Bernie has a cult. His "cult" is often more critical of him on issues of substance moreso than his fiercest enemies, but they also recognize that he is by far the best of the current candidates, even if his superiority is just because America is such a political shithole that the bar is under sixty feet of mud.

tommy7154 · Oct 18, 2019

Tfritz said:
wait, Ilhan agrees with Bernie that the Mean Ol' UN is just too hard on poor little Israel? She agrees with him using finger quotes when he talks about Israel's human rights violations? That's pretty messed up, I thought she was really cool on foreign policy, but I guess she's like every other shitty American politician.

That and your linked video show some extremely poor comprehension on your part.

manchego obfuscator · Oct 18, 2019

it's pretty frustrating how foreign policy keeps being left out of the discussions of whether Bernie or Warren is more progressive.

Tfritz said:
like the un does fuck all to actually check israel, but apparently that's too much for bernie (it's ok, he didn't write the letter, it's not the letter he would have personally written, he just signed the letter to endorse its contents which is a very different thing!), and also what about saudia arabia???

that's from over two years ago. He's definitely not as far to the left as I'd like him to be on Israel/Palestine, but he's tacked noticeably further left since then, endorsing policies like tying aid to Israel to their treatment of Palestinians, which Warren refuses to do. you can also compare their responses to Israel keeping out Omar and Tlaib; Bernie was completely unequivocal in his condemnation and was careful to mention Palestine, whereas Warren avoided any mention of Palestine or Palestinians, and framed the decision as a deviation from Israel's status as a "tolerant democracy" and an "unwavering US ally"

even if you go back before that, Bernie was condemning Israel's total lack of concern for Palestinian lives in Protective Edge. Warren cheered on the slaughter and gave the usual Israel-apologist garbage about Hamas hiding behind human shields.

Snowy · Oct 18, 2019

tommy7154 said:
That and your linked video show some extremely poor comprehension on your part.

Also, him waving his hands the way he always does is not "finger quotes".

chirt · Oct 18, 2019

Tfritz said:
like the un does fuck all to actually check israel, but apparently that's too much for bernie (it's ok, he didn't write the letter, it's not the letter he would have personally written, he just signed the letter to endorse its contents which is a very different thing!), and also what about saudia arabia???

Well I don't know the specifics of this interview, but Bernie has been pretty outspoken on civil/human rights in regards to Israel/Palestine;

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/07/bernie-sanders-israel-palestine-bds

They even touch one this very interview in the article. All of the things he's done seems quite contradictory to what you were implying about him (and by extension Ilhan).

Deleted member 4346 · Oct 18, 2019

Tfritz said:
like the un does fuck all to actually check israel, but apparently that's too much for bernie (it's ok, he didn't write the letter, it's not the letter he would have personally written, he just signed the letter to endorse its contents which is a very different thing!), and also what about saudia arabia???

Christ, that's bad. That's really bad, I hadn't watched it in a while. Whataboutism, "a one state solution with equal rights for former Palestinians would be the death of Israel"...

If Israel is dependent on being an ethnostate for its survival, then perhaps the Israel that we know today is doomed, and no matter of unilateral US support can save it.

The terrifying part is that Sanders is the best mainstream politician on Middle Eastern policy. If he's making these kinds of statements, then others are far worse.

manchego obfuscator · Oct 18, 2019

Snowy said:
This is what people don't understand when they say Bernie has a cult. His "cult" is often more critical of him on issues of substance moreso than his fiercest enemies, but they also recognize that he is by far the best of the current candidates, even if his superiority is just because America is such a political shithole that the bar is under sixty feet of mud.

there definitely are those who are unhealthily invested in him as an individual, but an awful lot of the "Bernie cult" talk has always struck me as projection from liberals who define their own political identities largely in terms of parasocial relationships with HRC, Pelosi, Harris, Warren, etc

Apharmd said:
Christ, that's bad. That's really bad, I hadn't watched it in a while. Whataboutism, "a one state solution with equal rights for former Palestinians would be the death of Israel"...

If Israel is dependent on being an ethnostate for its survival, then perhaps the Israel that we know today is doomed, and no matter of unilateral US support can save it.

The terrifying part is that Sanders is the best mainstream politician on Middle Eastern policy. If he's making these kinds of statements, then others are far worse.

fwiw, I don't think he'd answer those questions the same way today given his more recent statements and positions on Israel/Palestine. it's definitely not good though

tommy7154 · Oct 18, 2019

Snowy said:
Also, him waving his hands the way he always does is not "finger quotes".

To be fair (as if I should be) he is using quotes there but then says it may be true. The bottom line is it's fucking ridiculous to go after Sanders for this when everyone else is far worse. I think Ilhan Omar knows this pretty clearly and as has been said, his foreign policy is part of the reason she endorsed him. Certainly she would not endorse a Warren or a Harris due to their foreign policy. So even if you think Sanders isn't great (he is) then you should be even more critical of everybody else running.

Snowy · Oct 18, 2019

manchego obfuscator said:
there definitely are those who are unhealthily invested in him as an individual, but an awful lot of the "Bernie cult" talk has always struck me as projection from liberals who define their own political identities largely in terms of parasocial relationships with HRC, Pelosi, Harris, Warren, etc

fwiw, I don't think he'd answer those questions the same way today given his more recent statements and positions on Israel/Palestine. it's definitely not good though

Of course there are people who take it too far or are invested in him, personally, but not moreso than any other candidate. And at least most of his fans like him because of specific policies and aspirational goals.

Soliloquy of a Dogge · Oct 18, 2019

tommy7154 said:
So even if you think Sanders isn't great (he is)

It's so hard to take your posts seriously when it comes to Sanders. Do you have a shrine of him in your bedroom too?

tommy7154 · Oct 18, 2019

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
It's so hard to take your posts seriously when it comes to Sanders. Do you have a shrine of him in your bedroom too?

Great on foreign policy. But yes he is great in general too.

It isn't the person it's the message. Something I don't think a lot of people comprehend for some reason, but should.

Here are the thoughts that I have and agree with Sanders on, which you seem to confuse with "worshipping" someone:

Social equality is a must
War is bad
People deserve a living wage
We should maybe do something about global warming
Medical treatment should be a human right
Greed and corruption are bad

...I can go on, but maybe you can try to understand now? Not the man. The message.

Inuhanyou · Oct 18, 2019

Tracygill said:
I think this could be one of the many reasons why they choose to endorse Sanders instead of Warren.

One of the biggest reasons why omar and talib are berniebros. Warren is TERRIBLE on foriegn policy. pretty much all of it

The fact that bern is not perfect and has many blindspots yet still is by far the best on foreign policy should be an indictment on our entire system.

To his credit he has be going futher and further in the right direction in recent years. Something warren still hasent even aknowledged unfortunately.

And hes never been a fan of netty to start with. It takes guts to boycott aipac in an election everyone else goes.

Crepuscular · Oct 18, 2019

Richter1887 said:
Every time someone says Warren is better or "is the same as Bernie" I shake my head. This is why.

Not only that, you get people saying since she is the "same" as Bernie, they will vote for her because she is a woman thinking they are somehow more progresive.

A woman president would be really cool. However, neither Warren or Hillary should be that woman.

"I'd love to vote for a woman, but not THIS woman" claims another victim.

Not really even directing this at you specifically, I don't know your political history.

Just that I read this line approximately 5 million times in 2016, and in 99% of those cases, it was Warren as the hypothetical "woman I'd love to vote for." Hillary was bad, but Warren was good!

Now it's 2019, Elizabeth Warren is actually running, and "I'd love to vote for a woman, but not THIS woman" is all over reddit/twitter/Era/etc. yet again! Except now Warren is a neoliberal corporate shill and it's AOC's turn to be the hypothetical Good Woman!

Unfortunately AOC, she's gonna run for President in 2028 and "I'd love to vote for a woman, but not AOC because [reasons]" will get her too.

We've had 45 consecutive male presidents and most of them have sucked ass. We'll give a woman a chance...as soon as we find one who is 100% perfect with zero flaws whatsoever. Oh how we long for that day!

brainchild · Oct 18, 2019

I guess we can add Michael Moore to the mix.

y2dvd · Oct 19, 2019

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
It's so hard to take your posts seriously when it comes to Sanders. Do you have a shrine of him in your bedroom too?

Whew that Bern. I felt the heat there.

cj_iwakura · Oct 19, 2019

brainchild said:
I guess we can add Michael Moore to the mix.

Moore's always supported him, I've known as much since I asked him during a Q&A.

WaPo: AOC to endorse Bernie Sanders for President

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