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[Variety] Crisis at Marvel: Jonathan Majors back-up plans, ‘The Marvels’ reshoots, reviving original Avengers and more issues revealed
- Thread starter DinkyDev
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- Entertainment
I would add to this statement by saying that they also took D-list GOTG characters, knocked the casting out of the park, and the magic of James Gunn elevated them to the A list.
Then they got kinda cocky and thought they could do repeat the process but it never really congealed with the same magic again. Maybe because several of those attempts were smaller in scope, stuck onto Disney+, and focused on more singular characters.
And completely producer-driven, as well. While that's not to say the original few years of the MCU didn't have Feige's hand involved, it's ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that the primary priority for the D+ content is to serve the greater whole first, and to tell a compelling, creator-driven story a distant second.
When you have a bunch of shows that all basically amount to 'here's an origin story for this random character's superhero costume, now wait half a decade for them to maybe come back?????' it just kind of deflates the whole balloon.
In 2020 I thought they were doing mini-sagas while teasing the multiverse. Like Wandavision to Loki to Dr Strange 2 would culminate in a magic conclusion. That Captain America to Black Panther to Thunderbolts would end at an earth-based event. That some type of Young Avengers project would get assembled. With the main Avengers gone, and main throughline finished (youre not getting a better macguffin than Thanos' space rocks), I wanted them to flesh out individual worlds in this universe where alike characters meshing together again.
As much as I liked Moon Knight or She-Hulk they feel hollow from missing the other half of the Marvel equation: when will they show up again? Phase 4 and 5 had more projects than Phases 1-3 yet we still have no idea what the "Avengers: Kang Tomfoolery" lineup would possibly look like. Everyones flying blind
As much as I liked Moon Knight or She-Hulk they feel hollow from missing the other half of the Marvel equation: when will they show up again? Phase 4 and 5 had more projects than Phases 1-3 yet we still have no idea what the "Avengers: Kang Tomfoolery" lineup would possibly look like. Everyones flying blind
For comic fans, the GOTG were not D list at all, they were also part of huge events in marvel comics in the years prior to the movies and had a very popular run before the movies also.
Movies too
Why get Simu Liu and turn him into an internet favorite and then do absolutely nothing with the character for potentially five whole years?
I guess I'll chime in. My guess is Marvel overextended themselves with all the TV shows you now have to watch and I'm sure COVID didn't help. I would say I'm a hardcore fan and I've kept up with all the shows, but most casual fans didn't. They probably liked going to the movies every 3 or 4 months and being caught up on what's going on, but now you have like 6 or more shows going on with various lengths that you have to keep up with. For example, my girlfriend loves Marvel but pretty much only watched the movies and had to be forced to watch Wandavision and she didn't watch anything beyond that. When we went to see Antman 3, she didn't realize that the villion was Kang and he was introduced in Loki nor did she get the after credits seen.
Maybe this will be mean we can take a real break from super hero movies. What am I saying? That'll never happen.
The MCU has gotten too large and unwieldy and despite many saying that everything is too siloed (which is true in some aspects) is also too interconnected for its own good.
For the Infinity Saga the bare essential movies you needed to see were Avengers, Ultron, Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame. Basically all of the Avengers movies, and possibly Guardians of the Galaxy. On top of that you had character franchises that could be viewed on their own without needing to delve into the wider MCU. You didn't need to be watching the Thor movies to follow the Captain America movies.
Post-Endgame movies are very reliant on viewers having seen Endgame, which then means viewers will need to have seen the prerequisites for Endgame, and suddenly it's very hard for new viewers to start watching. D+ has only exacerbated this issue by adding tons of hours of content that can be required for some other films. If you want to understand Doctor Strange 2 then you'd better hope you're caught up on WandaVision. Get excited for The Marvels, where Captain Marvel teams up with characters from two different D+ shows. Want to catch up on Kang, the major new threat in the upcoming Avengers movie? Please watch two seasons of Loki. It's far two much viewing and across too many different franchises for viewers to hope to follow everything without a guide or just making sure they watch everything - and it doesn't help that most of the newer stuff is mid. It seems many are taking the secret third option of just not watching any longer.
For the Infinity Saga the bare essential movies you needed to see were Avengers, Ultron, Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame. Basically all of the Avengers movies, and possibly Guardians of the Galaxy. On top of that you had character franchises that could be viewed on their own without needing to delve into the wider MCU. You didn't need to be watching the Thor movies to follow the Captain America movies.
Post-Endgame movies are very reliant on viewers having seen Endgame, which then means viewers will need to have seen the prerequisites for Endgame, and suddenly it's very hard for new viewers to start watching. D+ has only exacerbated this issue by adding tons of hours of content that can be required for some other films. If you want to understand Doctor Strange 2 then you'd better hope you're caught up on WandaVision. Get excited for The Marvels, where Captain Marvel teams up with characters from two different D+ shows. Want to catch up on Kang, the major new threat in the upcoming Avengers movie? Please watch two seasons of Loki. It's far two much viewing and across too many different franchises for viewers to hope to follow everything without a guide or just making sure they watch everything - and it doesn't help that most of the newer stuff is mid. It seems many are taking the secret third option of just not watching any longer.
I wouldn't say they were D-listers, but they were certainly the most obscure characters in comparison to everything else they were doing. Outside of comic fans and people who read up on comic stuff on Wikipedia, the only things the general public would've known them from was their dedicated episode in the various cartoons in the late 2000s/early 2010s, Rocket in UMvC3, and Starlord having a Sackboy outfit in LBP2 lol.
I definitely think the average quality is lower than it was pre-Endgame, definitely less-focused but I've also enjoyed quite a few of the movies: Shang Chi, Dr. Strange, Black Panther and Guardians of the Galaxy. Loki, Ms Marvel, She Hulk - quite enjoyed those and Moon Knight and the others weren't too rough, only one I didn't really care for was Falcon and the Winter Soldier. The others ranged from 'good' to 'fine.'
It does feel they're trying to spin too many plates, though. I think the biggest issue that I perceive is that because every year we see about 5 or 6 new heroes spring up, its hard for audiences to form an emotional connection with characters like Shang Chi if we're then just supposed to forget he exists for 5 years.
Especially contrasted with the Infinity Saga showing you Iron Man and Cap' as often as they could. I think it's not necessarily about a barrage of content or people not keeping up, I know plenty of people who watched Endgame having not watched every other movie - the biggest issue is making people give a shit about these characters and what they're doing, and thats hard in space they're purposefully crowding.
It does feel they're trying to spin too many plates, though. I think the biggest issue that I perceive is that because every year we see about 5 or 6 new heroes spring up, its hard for audiences to form an emotional connection with characters like Shang Chi if we're then just supposed to forget he exists for 5 years.
Especially contrasted with the Infinity Saga showing you Iron Man and Cap' as often as they could. I think it's not necessarily about a barrage of content or people not keeping up, I know plenty of people who watched Endgame having not watched every other movie - the biggest issue is making people give a shit about these characters and what they're doing, and thats hard in space they're purposefully crowding.
Im completely fine with Marvel not being the biggest thing ever anymore tbh. They had a good run, and all good things have to end. Id even be fine with it ending and starting another capeshit cinematic universe based on something else (or maybe an original one...)
Seems like a great way to handle Kang would have been to have him wearing a mask more often, like the comic character he's based on does. Pretty easy to recast or take their time figuring out what to do about him if they can keep using the character in the meantime. But nope. They spent a lot to get Majors so they've gotta show his face as much as possible, just like RDJ and others. Even when they did give him a mask in Quantamania it looked like a transparent blue material than his face can be seen through rather than a molded solid mask.
Hell, they could have had Kang-in-mask popping up in stuff and not revealed that it was the character from Loki right off the bat, making it a big surprise when he took off the mask. But nope.
Hell, they could have had Kang-in-mask popping up in stuff and not revealed that it was the character from Loki right off the bat, making it a big surprise when he took off the mask. But nope.
You could just not watch them. It's not like they are replacing anything worthwhile as what would Disney be putting those funds towards instead? More Star Wars, Hunger Games ripoffs? More cursed live-action remakes?
I'm watching him do his best high school Drama class stuttering nerd on Loki and people telling me his performance steals the show. Feel like I'm living in an alternative universe myself at this stage. It's laughable.
For the general populace they were certainly D Listers, I remember in the build up to Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3 with people complaining about why Rocket Raccoon was in the roster instead of Venom or Gambit.
you mean him as victor timely? it's awful. his performance on the stage, where he introduced his machine...this was just a parody of acting.
I mean all you are proposing is the same thing as we've already had but with different characters, and they are pretty much doing that. It being under the same Marvel banner is irrelevant to that.
Also Disney/Marvel isn't about to start setting up Valiant Comics Cinematic Universe, so I don't really understand the suggestion here. What do you expect Marvel's movie division to make if not movies based on Marvel IP?
I think the problem with MCU's take on the multiverse is they kept dangling the carrot on the stick that they would crossover with past Marvel movies. Not saying they needed to but they were absolutely baiting people into beliving it was coming. It'd be like if No Way Home kept teasing multiverses but it didn't actually crossove with Raimi or Webb films.
Just focus on the X-Men. Why these movies are scheduled for like 2027 is beyond me. It's a fucking cash cow if done right.
I actually thought he was okay at He Who Remains, but yeah. It's actively quite frustrating to watch. I think I honestly just don't care about Kang. Josh Brolin managed to be intimidating despite looking like a big purple CGI scrotum.
Disney: Nooo but I want it now now now I want Endgame box office NOW :'(
Majority of the Avengers under similar circumstances were D listers if we are going off popularity to the general public, like Black Widow was never a major known character outside comic circles. As folks pointed out before, Iron Man, Thor, etc were "known", but no popular at all either. Hell Hulk was bigger than all of them.
Yeah I barely made it through the victor timely episode and haven't watched any since. Probably the worst performance in all of the MCU and honestly, without hyperbole, I'm struggling to think of a recent performance in any tv show or film that has been worse. Even ignoring the abuse allegations, they should dump majors before they hang a whole phase of the MCU on his terrible acting.
This has been my biggest criticism. Everything feels thin. People loved Chris Evans as Captain America, but you could also count on him to pop up almost once a year in a major Marvel movie.
I really think Shang Chi could have had a similar effect, but he's just been left to languish for who knows how long. Same with Florence Pugh, even if she has shown up more often that Liu.
Like even post-Endgame they've found characters they could build their world around. They just haven't yet.
I legit don't get it. He appears to not give a fuck about the role, because he's had multiple characters with multiple directors and each time he comes across as simply *terrible*. Not just flat, but actively bad. In the Quantumania credits scene he's actively looking and talking the wrong way when he's supposed to be addressing himself - it's bizarre how badly put together that scene is.
I've yet to see him look anything other than a very bad actor who thinks that chewing the hell out of the scenery and putting a bad voice on is what makes you good.
Black Widow was obviously a few tiers higher in the general public consciousness than Gamora and Star Lord lol
Its not irrelevant imo. This goes for superhero comics more so than the movies, but making it all one connected universe with the actual same character over and over again kinda works against them eventually. The strength of the IP gets counteracted by that same IP being impenetrable to newcomers (because they have to watch all these movies and shows/read all of these comics). Even if they dont actually need to.
Its not a coincidence that this is happening after Endgame. Thats where any self respecting franchise would end.
Dude's got no range. He can do serious and brooding well but trying to watch him do comedy makes me want to put pencils in my eyes
Honestly my biggest gripe with Kang is how he talks big shit about killing Avengers in Quantumania. For god's sake Feige/Reed, show don't tell. Begin the story with him taking out an alternative Ant-Man or Thor. Don't just tell us this guy is Multiversal Hitler, we need to see it.
Speaking as someone who was a GOTG fan prior to the MCU (and kinda thinks the MCU ruined them), they were definitely D-List. Even those events you're talking about weren't huge outside the universe. They were these fun off to the side things that happened while Marvel did the real major events of Civil War and Secret Invasion. It always felt like a corner of the universe that Marvel editorial wasn't paying attention to, so the creators could have a lot of fun.
Also apart from maybe Groot and Rocket they bore little to no resemblance to their movie counterparts. Gunn made those characters in many ways.
They don't have to watch all these movies though. They are literally introducing a whole shed load of new characters with no prior links (nor current or near future links too, which is the crux of some folks criticism).
We are quite literally seeing a reboot within the MCU right now. It being Marvel still absolutely is irrelevant. They could have had these same characters, removed the MCU tag, and the same issues remain.
Disney/Marvel isn't about to create a whole new cinematic universe with all new non-Marvel characters when they are sitting on the IP they have, that's an insane suggestion. They are doing exactly what they should do: refresh the existing universe with new characters as the centrepiece, and with a new story that doesn't requite foreknowledge of what came before. Are they doing a good job of this? Absolutely not, but that's a different issue.
The fact that the producers/execs saw what this guy was capable of and decided "Yeah, this is the future of the MCU" is tied with spending almost $300 million on The Marvels as proof of total incompetence.
Bring Chris Evans back as Captain America but make it ultra jingoistic psycho Captain America from the Ultimate universe. Just make him a complete patriotic POS and let Evans have a blast with it.
I don't think superhero movies will stop being made but I can see them not being a major pop culture phenomenon producing a string of hits for a decade straight.
I don't think superhero movies will stop being made but I can see them not being a major pop culture phenomenon producing a string of hits for a decade straight.
I don't know how they published that Quantumania post credits scene as it was honestly. The costuming/CGI is utterly ridiculous. I know it was written by Rick and Morty writers but it almost seems like a parody of a Marvel movie from that show.
"Now the Avengers will have to defeat Kang....ALL THE KANGS!"
Queue Pharaoh Kang, Future Guy Kang and oh my god is that a blue lizard Kang
"Now the Avengers will have to defeat Kang....ALL THE KANGS!"
Queue Pharaoh Kang, Future Guy Kang and oh my god is that a blue lizard Kang
The thing about GOTG is that it was actually good, felt fresh, and the movie made people care about and like them even though they weren't A list super heroes.
Plus the universe as a whole was sooooooo much easier to follow. They didn't feel like the 1000th side hero.
Plus the universe as a whole was sooooooo much easier to follow. They didn't feel like the 1000th side hero.
But the issues are *because* its Marvel. Because its an existing universe with characters that need replacing with new ones, it got all these shows introducing new characters and all the issues that came with them. They couldnt have run into this problem if they were starting from scratch like with Iron Man.
I'm apparently one of the few people who disliked his peformance in Loki season 1. He got worse?
When it was first announced Kang would be a villain my initial impression was "ok, I'm not a fan of the guy but I can see the potential." Why? Because the idea of a time-travelling villain who could kill the Avengers in the crib is a natural escalation from Thanos.
But for some reason they've tied Kang to multiversal nonsense. If they'd simply stuck with the idea of one time travelling bad guy, he would have remained a formidable antagonist that the good guys would need to outsmart*, but as people have mentioned already the concept of endless versions of characters in the 'multiverse saga' really undermines stories. (as does Major's laughable performance in all iterations of the character, but I guess I'm in the minority with that opinion)
* think of the disturbing moments we could have had, as characters start realising their past has been impacted by the villain. Then again, maybe the Kang I remember from the comics is incompatible to the MCU thanks to the Russos rules of time travel, which states that whatever happened happened, and when you change something it creates a new timeline.
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether Daredevil would be successful at the box office. Non comic book readers thought Batman was a joke thanks to the old TV show until Burton came along. Then Nolan reinvented him all over again wiping out memory of the Schumacher years. There is no reason Daredevil can't be adapted to the big screen, let alone make money while doing so.
Popularity of a character is irrelevant, only the talent behind the camera. If you want to say "current MCU isn't capable of making a good movie", that's another debate entirely. But I strongly disagree with the notion that Daredevil is not fit for cinema, that he can only shine on TV because a movie "is only going to tell one story instead of several".
But for some reason they've tied Kang to multiversal nonsense. If they'd simply stuck with the idea of one time travelling bad guy, he would have remained a formidable antagonist that the good guys would need to outsmart*, but as people have mentioned already the concept of endless versions of characters in the 'multiverse saga' really undermines stories. (as does Major's laughable performance in all iterations of the character, but I guess I'm in the minority with that opinion)
* think of the disturbing moments we could have had, as characters start realising their past has been impacted by the villain. Then again, maybe the Kang I remember from the comics is incompatible to the MCU thanks to the Russos rules of time travel, which states that whatever happened happened, and when you change something it creates a new timeline.
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether Daredevil would be successful at the box office. Non comic book readers thought Batman was a joke thanks to the old TV show until Burton came along. Then Nolan reinvented him all over again wiping out memory of the Schumacher years. There is no reason Daredevil can't be adapted to the big screen, let alone make money while doing so.
Popularity of a character is irrelevant, only the talent behind the camera. If you want to say "current MCU isn't capable of making a good movie", that's another debate entirely. But I strongly disagree with the notion that Daredevil is not fit for cinema, that he can only shine on TV because a movie "is only going to tell one story instead of several".
Lego Kang, Muppet Kang, and Comicon Exclusive Clear Variant Kang.
If Batman had the same cultural cache as Moon Knight, then I would argue that nobody would go to the theater to see him. You can't ignore Batman's extreme popularity over, what, five generations now? Kids today have great grandparents who have been into Batman since they were young.
Like I said earlier, it looks like the opening FMV of Command & Conquer 6: Tiberian Multiverse. Just horrible, good lord.
I'm saying that Daredevil doesn't need to be on every kid's T-shirt to be successful at the box office. I'm not saying DD is going to make a billion dollars or something, but there's no guarantee it's going to be a flop just because the last movie was shite decades ago.
If producers always thought in such a negative way about which characters to bring to the big screen we'd never have gotten movies like Black Panther (which again, was very successful despite the character not being as popular as someone like Spidey, etc). You just need the right people behind the project with a strong vision.
this should be a threadmark by now: they cannot use the x-men till 2026 unless they use the fox actors.
That is not how contracts work. There is no exclusive license to be Jean Grey that Sophie Turner has until 2026. If they want to make another Jean Grey, they can do whatever they want.
Wow that thread is just full of hype. Of course he was hyped here lol.
Deadline: Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania heading to $120 Million OW (1 was $57, 2 was $75). Kang appears to be the reason for the jump
https://deadline.com/2023/01/ant-man-the-wasp-quantumania-hits-tracking-with-120m-projected-u-s-debut-its-all-about-kang-1235241780/www.resetera.com
People were absolutely hyping up Kang. Hell I was hyped for Kang too
[Rolling Stone] Fake Accounts Fueled the ‘Snyder Cut’ Online Army
A WarnerMedia report reveals that bots and other inauthentic users bolstered the fan-led campaign for director Zack Snyder's Justice League do-over https://twitter.com/rollingstone/status/1549199006663843841?s=21&t=1hcB1jTk47Yi6mqsxM1Jgw...
www.resetera.com
That article basically called Fisher a liar and said he and Snyder were working together to gaslight fans.
The Marvel article feels more like a normal "report the facts and quotes from sources" kind of thing.
This is an internet rumor that I have never seen confirmed by a real source. Unless you can provide me with one.
Deadline: Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania heading to $120 Million OW (1 was $57, 2 was $75). Kang appears to be the reason for the jump
https://deadline.com/2023/01/ant-man-the-wasp-quantumania-hits-tracking-with-120m-projected-u-s-debut-its-all-about-kang-1235241780/
People were absolutely hyping up Kang. Hell I was hyped for Kang too
I get hindsight is 20/20, but goddamn!