Tackling racism through anti-capitalism is the more "in touch" approach
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US PoliEra 2020 |OT 3| "I think he's learned his lesson" says The Concerned Immoderate Darling Collins.
- Thread starter TheHunter
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Tackling racism through anti-capitalism is the more "in touch" approach
The pro-choice, pro-Gun control, pro-regulation, pro-Net Neutrality, anti-predatory loan, anti-DAPL, co-author of the Green New Deal isn't in the same boat as Sanders and AOC? By what standard?
I'm not bagging on him or anything. He just doesn't strike me as the "revolutionary" type.
but there one in the same. There is no either or. you cannot say I am for the black man and proclaim yourself a capitalist, A system that has disenfranchised African-Americans since we were brought over by the slavers
AOC and Bernie Sanders are not capitalist what we call socialist.
You're conflating my point. Warren acknowledges a lot of changes necessary in addition to overarching changes—addressing specific types of discrimination, necessary investments to specific communities, etc—and intersectionality to a great extent. Bernie's plan is basically improve life across the board with a broad brush and let the improved quality of life take care of other issues.
They both describe themselves as Democratic Socialists, which I've been assured is not Socialist. Neither of them are advocating for a dissolution of the capitalist structure, they're advocating for stronger safety nets and improved social programs—which can still exist within a capitalist society, like all of the countries Sanders consistently references—as well as improved worker rights which has been a core part of capitalism since the turn of the 20th century.
I really hope he brings Tammy Duckworth on as VP. I love her so much.
Democracy in the workplace, C4A and M4A are attacks on the capitalist structure.
Why do you guys seem to think that unless one is willing to nationalise every industry in America on day 1, you're actually still an advocate for capitalism?
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Whoever assured you was wrong. They are both socialist they speak the word marxs. like there no great world organization that determines what is and wasn't socialist. Since the very beginning of Marxism ideology people have always agreed on what is and isn't socialism from people that believe that anarchy is socialism to people who believe that Democratic socialists is socialism. We can't just say that this long established form of socialism isn't a form of socialism because of reasons . Prominent Marxist and Marxist organization all across the world believe that Bernie Sanders and AOC are socialist and they are socialist.
And to your point of above Bernie's plan is to hopefully fundamentally change how our system works the system. a system by its very nature is unfair and thrives on the unfairness. if you believe that you can just put a billion dollars at the African-American community and think that will change discrimination without changing the underlying system for why that discrimination exists then nothing happened.
Probably because in a preexisting capitalist society if you're just picking and choosing the industries to take control of, you're stilling working within a capitalist system. Until you're willing to dictate production and remove large amounts of private enterprise, you're just adjusting the guardrails.
Bernie and AOC themselves claim they are Democratic Socialists, so ask them why they include Democratic if they're just Socialists. They're careful to preface their response to the question with that clarification—likely due to concerns of political ramifications. Even considering that, they're still not going all in on Socialism, and most of the claims that they are Socialists seem to come with the caveat that they want to destroy Capitalism in their heart of hearts, but there's no real evidence of that. They're most Socialist policy is M4A, which is an established norm in 3 dozen capitalist societies. It's socialist in nature, sure, but it's not some deathblow to the very concept of capitalism.
As for the issue of race, luckily nobody is advocating just dumping a billion dollars into black communities. What I'm referring to is seeing the connections between Poverty, Healthcare, Childcare, Criminal Justice Reform, Discrimination, Education, Police Brutality, Modern Segregation and how they all tie into Race. Simply improving economic conditions is not going to solve racial inequality—by your own admission, dumping money into these communities isn't going to fix the problem.
Warren is a lot more open about these connections and how her policies interlock and include specific pieces that benefit disadvantaged communities, and had a lot of these plans out there when she launched her campaign. Whenever she gives speeches she gives long detailed history lessons on racial discrimination and how it goes into all of these problems—her Atlanta Speech is probably the gold standard for outreach to communities of color imo, and perfectly exemplifies this strategy of hers.
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This.
Though I see now we're arguing socialist points which...wasn't what I said Warren and AoC were. So unless we're kicking Ayanna out of the squad I said they're progressives.
Which is all that matters to me.
Even after tomorrow, I still think there is plenty of primary left. You don't surge like Biden does without having something of a comedown and Warren and Bloomberg are set to make a mess of things in every scenario possible.
also this is kind of gross and she needs to talk with Pramila more and Bernie's incendiary staff less. Most of us voting Joe are normal people, loyal to the party, who want to see America change and are dedicated to causes that we all share.
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also this is kind of gross and she needs to talk with Pramila more and Bernie's incendiary staff less. Most of us voting Joe are normal people, loyal to the party, who want to see America change and are dedicated to causes that we all share.
Laura Barrón-López on Twitter
“.@AOC on moderates coalescing behind @JoeBiden: “The largest impact is in resources, there’s a lot of lobbyists interested here, there’s a lot of special interests, there’s a lot of people who are dedicated to preventing a progressive surge.””
twitter.com
That's kind of my belief. You can be a progressive without being Sanders. I'd even say a good number of the Democrats in Congress are Progressive—maybe not on all issues, but the party platform largely favor progressive policy.
The added Democratic part because that is a form of socialism there believe. like there's no agreed-upon world term of what is and what isn't socialism . You talk about they're not going all in all socialism what do you mean you're not going all-in? Do you mean that they're not advocating becoming a communist socialist government? Or do you believe that not even that isn't communist true believe that they should go to even further and become a socialist anarchist state. And I could go on and on and on about the different forms of socialism system.
I simply think that calling people who many Marxist economist, society, government etc not socialist even though many people agree that they are socialists is dumb.
And to your other point. Bernie sees that connection to I saw the man at Morehouse university speak about the same issues. However what's the difference between Bernie in Warren and this is a big one. One is a capitalist and one is a socialist. One believe that the social changes can be done without fundamentally throwing away this capitalist system even though time after time we have seen this system cause of very things that we want to stop and for the other he sees that capitalism is the very reason why we have these problems and without changing the fundamental concept behind our country there cannot be fundamental change.
They won't fix the problem over what ? This current capitalist system that is built upon inequality , thrives around inequality and its whole purpose is to exploit people especially our weakest members. I'm sure taking that route will be very effective
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No there will still be racism.
Giving them all money and benefits the white working class will still hate black people.
Can you explain the point. I'm confused what are you talking about capitalism or socialism?
As in eradicate racism? Alone? Nope, media and educational reform is needed. A non-hierarchical mode of production that isn't centred around the profit motive will cripple the ability for racism to mobilise on an institutional level.
A non racist, non sexist capitalism is fantasy land, pie in the sky stuff. Do you think america sticking with the system that was developed alongside slavery will fix the problem?
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It's funny, as I stare down the barrel of "Biden 2020: I haven't shit myself on stage yet, this counts for something" and the increasing likelihood of four more years of Trump, I kind of have to wonder to myself if running Warren as *the* progressive candidate with an endorsement from Sanders on day one would have been a better play.
we need a better backbench going into 2024, that's for damn sure.
we need a better backbench going into 2024, that's for damn sure.
I chased the squirrel, but I had to use the airship to go home and heal. How the heck do I get back to the area with the rocks and ladders?
LMAO.
Man, American politics are a whirlwind. Sad part is the current president is so much worse than this when it comes to expressing himself.
Even after tomorrow, I still think there is plenty of primary left. You don't surge like Biden does without having something of a comedown and Warren and Bloomberg are set to make a mess of things in every scenario possible.
also this is kind of gross and she needs to talk with Pramila more and Bernie's incendiary staff less. Most of us voting Joe are normal people, loyal to the party, who want to see America change and are dedicated to causes that we all share.
Laura Barrón-López on Twitter
“.@AOC on moderates coalescing behind @JoeBiden: “The largest impact is in resources, there’s a lot of lobbyists interested here, there’s a lot of special interests, there’s a lot of people who are dedicated to preventing a progressive surge.””
Why are you loyal to a party that has repeatedly rejected true left wing ideas?
I live in Canada and every Democratic president so far has been the equivalent of a canadian conservative PM. It's ridiculous. The US needs true change. Not more of the same garbage. As AOC says, you can't dislike Trump but also want to go back to the system that enabled him.
The system that enabled Trump was that a Black person became President. Trump is not President because of some "working class economic anxiety" BS that media keeps peddling because they won't want to call out racism.
Because this is the United States not Canada. In a representative government, the representatives have to represent the will of the people. The US is a lot more conservative than most people seem to want to acknowledge. There are exceptions like Bernie who runs far to the left of most people in VT, but by and large the country is just more conservative than someone like Bernie or even someone like Warren.
Kyle Kondik @kkondikThere are a lot of polls released over the last week (particularly on the earlier side of that timeframe) that are going to be way off. And that's OK and makes sense - it seems pretty clear that the voters themselves were very much in flux this past week too
6:19 AM - Mar 3, 2020
Refusing to fight for better things doesn't make you look as good as you think. Jesus christ centrism is garbage. So many of you are keen on have 2 conservative parties in the US and it makes me question how many actually care of the thousands that die or go bankrupt every year because of shit healthcare.
Ive seen this a few times now and can't understand what this means. How does Sanders fix the system that enables Trump?
I mean this is it. This is where the difference is.
Not only do I not think this is true at all, Democrats often OVERESTIMATE how conservative the populace is. Academic research shows that elected Dems do it:https://scholars.org/contribution/p...-voters-are-more-conservative-they-really-are
Which is why it's so frustrating and why yesterday was so annoying, because it's obviously based on this 90s-esque antiquated fear of a fake idea of the electorate.
Yes, getting behind warren was the best route to avoid four more years of trump. LOL COME ON. Do you really believe warren is more likely to win than Biden? I'm genuinely curious. Maybe the primary, but the general?
The point is understood you don't like Biden (who, speaking of shitting his pants, I think he has multiple times, from the Kamala stuff to burisma) but even after all that he hasn't done it as recently as sanders has. I think he stepped on himself honestly.
Sanders has already ushered a new era of progressive politics. He's supported dozens of house and Senate races with candidates running on these ideas. This would only increase and become more mainstream if he gets the nomination.
One of the reasons Trump has been so effective is you have a weak democratic party that has no idea how to be better than him other than be "not trump". We all saw Nancy Pelosi rip up that speech a few weeks after she signed important republican bills. That's the kind of shit that is unacceptable. Idk i f you've noticed but Trump's base is a hell of a lot more excited and enthusiastic than Joe Biden's. Only Bernie's base comes anywhere close and we all know why.
It's because Bernie is advocating for ideas that actually excite people. True Medicare for All, debt forgiveness and increased taxes on the rich. The US doesn't need a lukewarm president who is gonna play ball with the republicans. There needs to be a fundamental shift.
The amount of people killed by the US' horrible medical system alone is a reason to vote for Bernie. A vote for Biden is a vote for murder by lack of healthcare as far as I'm concerned.
There is a difference between progressive and what Sanders is - a socialist. And Biden's platform is not some centrist/moderate dream, Sanders has hugely influenced what these other candidates have in their platforms already. Once also just has to look at 2018 to see that Moderates fared better.
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The problem is the populace is liberal, but they are not revolutionary.
Obama taking a Warren reformist approach would be welcomed with open arms. Revolution not so much.
No, you're right — i yoyo on it because I like Warren on paper and I'm in the bargaining phase of grief, but I won't actually argue that.
Part of this argument feels extremely patronizing, which is the issue. And I'm not sure if people realize how annoying it is. Like —
A significant portion of the primary electorate is going to vote for Bernie, and here's Klob on stage implying those are "extremes", without any real attempt at all to reach into Bernie's coalition (and I realize that Bernie has a similar issue, when his surrogates are saying all Biden support is corporate). But the left has spent a while largely swallowing its pride to vote for centrist candidates without any real olive branch from the center (note: as they should), so it just feels so depressing that we're headed towards that reality again.
I feel more confident that Biden would want to pick Romney as his VP than anyone to the left of him ideologically!
A significant portion of the primary electorate is going to vote for Bernie, and here's Klob on stage implying those are "extremes", without any real attempt at all to reach into Bernie's coalition (and I realize that Bernie has a similar issue, when his surrogates are saying all Biden support is corporate). But the left has spent a while largely swallowing its pride to vote for centrist candidates without any real olive branch from the center (note: as they should), so it just feels so depressing that we're headed towards that reality again.
I feel more confident that Biden would want to pick Romney as his VP than anyone to the left of him ideologically!
Yup Warren is my top pick too as an idealogical choice
But im in full reality mode now and trying to decide which white daddy i like more. Im definitely leaning Bernie but would be fine with Biden
Just NO BLOOMBERG god please
I'm replying to a post saying that the US is "more conservative than you think", which isn't true, and is also a pretty common fallacy from elected Dems.
You haven't answered the question. You've answered why he's a good counter to Trump and I agree people like big ideas rather than running as "not-Trump," but that doesn't explain how the system gave us Trump and Bernie fixes that. A bunch of shitty racist backlash to a black president and partially to their own establishment resentment from the previous election gave us trump. How does Bernie mean we don't get another one? Assuming Bernie actually enacts any of his agenda (which is not terribly likely), how does giving people healthcare prevent Trump? Are there not "nationalist" assholes winning in other countries with universal healthcare?
And your last sentence is fucking offensively stupid. I'm a likely Bernie voter and that's just not true. Biden is for expanding healthcare. Yes his plan doesn't go as far as M4A, but it isn't because he's for people dying. The moderates don't go as far because they think (and you can disagree with this but it's a genuine belief) that some assured progress that saves lives is better than the abysmally tiny chance Bernie's Hail Mary works and doesn't instead lead to massive backlash and zero progress or even less than zero progress.
Online progressives really just need to fuck off with the "moderates just want us to die" rhetoric.
Yes Biden's playing ball with republicans is stupid but I wonder how much is real belief and how much is posturing for voters that do want that. In any case Bernie barely wants to "play ball" with democrats which makes a lot of his proposals nearly impossible to pull off.
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I mean on here this forum one would think the US populace is full of secret leftists. It is more conservative than people think.
It's just still liberal and left leaning in the end.
When far left candidates can win enough seats to make a difference—or more than a handful of House seats—those changes will be possible. Sorry for living in actual reality rather than the reality I wish we had.
Studies of the electorate generally focus on the entire population of eligible voters, not the people that actually show up to vote. Compare polling of the general public with likely voters and you'll see a huge difference. The reality is, a lot of people can't or don't vote, which skews the political leaning of the country to the right dramatically—mostly older mostly white mostly right wing voters show up to work like clockwork, and that makes it hard to get left wing politicians in power. It's a reality that as turnout increases Democrats win more, but due to voter suppression and economic conditions, a lot of would be liberal voters can't/don't show up.
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