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Solace

Dog's Best Friend
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,920
Goddamn, what a fantastic video, this one + their Death stranding review cemented them as people who just 'gets it' in my book. And surprisingly, the amount of positive comments under this video is weird haha I think it's one of the few places on the internet right now that is like that!
 

Traxus

Spirit Tamer
Member
Jan 2, 2018
5,210
Edit: disregard, wrong thread. Awesome video, btw.
 
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Astral

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,279
Great review from someone who understands why this game exists and what it's trying to achieve. This is probably the only time where I can say that the people who hated the story just didn't understand it, or lack the emotional maturity to empathise with other perspectives.
People will give you shit for this but I agree 100%.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,086
Melbourne, Australia
Great review from someone who understands why this game exists and what it's trying to achieve. This is probably the only time where I can say that the people who hated the story just didn't understand it, or lack the emotional maturity to empathise with other perspectives.
It still isn't a time where this level of condescension is applicable.

I hated the story despite fully understanding what it was setting out to do. Possibly too well, it seems.

I made a post explaining my experience with the game a few posts above yours. Or here.
 

Jhn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
423
This is great. I remember liking the death stranding video too, is all of their content this good?
 

Knight613

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,846
San Francisco
It still isn't a time where this level of condescension is applicable.

I hated the story despite fully understanding what it was setting out to do. Possibly too well, it seems.

I made a post explaining my experience with the game a few posts above yours. Or here.
I think it's fine to not like the story. What's not fine is a lot of people saying they don't like the story and then proceed to show that they don't understand it and a lot of things flew over their heads.
 

Party

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Dec 3, 2018
1,423
Do people struggle to look beyond their own (or the protagonists) perspective in media?

I think whether or not The Last of Us Part II works for people (and this video reaffirms this) hinges on whether or not you're angry at Abby for killing Joel. That emotion is largely what should drive players during the first half of the game, and then contribute to a lot of the emotional weight and payoffs in the second half as you slowly come to terms with the idea that Abby is not just some expendable video game villain; she's a real person, with understandable reasons for killing Joel, and is arguably even one of the more 'decent' people within the context of that world.

The problem is that I didn't have this experience. I wasn't angry at Abby. And I love Joel for the record. But I knew there were plenty of reasons for someone to want him dead. I also knew that narrative conventions exist, and that his death was very likely the consequence of his choice at the end of the first game. Which meant that my very first thought was to assume that Abby was the daughter of one of the Firefly doctors at Saint Mary's Hospital. Or at the very least one who knew he had robbed humanity of the cure.

I've been reading a lot of takes since finishing the game, and I'm surprised that so few people had this experience. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but…shouldn't this have been obvious? Abby and her group had clearly traveled across the country to literally hunt Joel down. You don't do that without a very good reason. She also spared Ellie and Tommy, which should have said a lot about her character. I spent the entirety of Ellie's three days in Seattle anticipating the moment when the game would show me Abby's POV. From about two hours into the game, I had guessed the entire structure of the story and most of the biggest plot beats.

Now, I imagine some of you are thinking "So what? A story being predictable doesn't make it bad!" And generally I would agree with that, but...it took me twenty hours to make it to Abby's Day 1. That's a very long time, and because Naughty Dog had (from my perspective) completely failed to get me invested in Ellie's revenge quest…the first half of the game dragged. It doesn't help that most of the partner characters in this section (Dina & Jessie) are fairly shallow overall, and don't challenge Ellie's views in any real way. I know this will vary from person to person, but I didn't find many of their interactions to be compelling. Dina and Ellie's relationship is paper thin.

And then the second half of the game rolls around, and it goes to great, incredibly unsubtle lengths to humanize and redeem a character that I already assumed had a pretty good justification for killing Joel. I did end up liking Abby as a character, but...I didn't get any of those moments of self-reflection that I imagine Naughty Dog were intending the player to have, as you question your earlier feelings towards her. The side characters were a letdown in the section as well. I do like Owen (who is probably the best human in the story) and Abby's relationship with him is cute, but Lev and Yara? How are they so popular? Their dynamic with Abby is shallow, and it feels like Abby's determination to save them comes more from her need to do something good than anything they were bringing to the table. I don't dislike them, but passing the basic threshold of likeability isn't really enough tbh.

Ultimately, I think the central theme of the game is that of empathy. Ellie's quest for revenge is just a vehicle for putting the player through an experience that will hopefully make them question themselves as their views towards certain characters change over the course of the game. We get to see lots of different perspectives, and see how each group feels justified in their actions. We're supposed to contrast and compare Ellie and Abby, and realize that they're actually on the exact same path, just at different phases of it. We're supposed to recognize through Abby's campaign that killing Joel ultimately didn't give her any closure, adding to the senselessness of what Ellie is doing. And by the very end of the game we're supposed to be very uncomfortable with what Ellie has become, meaning the decision to let Abby go should be a relief.

I still feel that this wasn't a story worth telling, and that the ending of the first game is weaker now that this exists. I feel that Part II is very poorly paced and heavy handed in its themes. Again, I feel that the character relationships are very shallow for the most part. I feel like there's almost nothing to dwell on after completing it.

One thing I will praise the game for, is that despite Joel dying very early in the runtime, he permeates throughout the story of the entire game. Almost every other character in the story is on their trajectory because of him. He really is still a major character in this, and the idea that Part II is 'disrespectful' towards him in any way is laughable tbh. If anything it's actually an incredibly positive portrayal. We see so many touching moments between him and Ellie in the flashbacks. One of my favourite sections of the game was when we explored his house, and got to learn more about what he had been doing in the years since the first game. Seeing the pictures of his two daughters on the table. Seeing that he was reading up on Space before bed, so that he'd have more to talk to Ellie about. That it was Ellie remembering how much she wanted to forgive Joel that ultimately allowed her to let Abby go at the end of the game. And the tragedy that her quest for revenge still cost her absolutely everything, including the last connection she had to Joel in playing the guitar.
Just wanna call out this post even if I disagree with most of it and I think this game is one of the the most incredible stories I've recently experienced. This is a well thought out and nuanced take on this game.

There has to be a distinction between this form of criticism and a majority of the bullshit circulating around this game. I think folks who are saying "wow if I didn't like this game I'm suddenly a bigot huh" is made in such bad faith. There is absolutely plenty of valid criticism to be made around this game and I think most people who loved the game are actually interested in hearing different perspectives. It's just that we are more interested in hearing criticism on what the game actually was rather than what they thought the game should have been and extremely tired of the same old "game had nothing to say, revenge is bad is a boring message" takes that just feel rote and lazy.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,655
Reading through Neil's replies, the raction to this Video and Angry Joe's twitter replies it seems like the Hate died down a little and the people who loved the game are more vocal. Really happy to see that.
 

Knight613

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,846
San Francisco
Reading through Neil's replies, the raction to this Video and Angry Joe's twitter replies it seems like the Hate died down a little and the people who loved the game are more vocal. Really happy to see that.
A lot of it is also probably that a lot of people have had time to actually play the game rather than just go off of rumored leaks and all that. At some point, the people that hate on the game just to hate on it will move on to hating something else while the people that really love the game will continue to love it.
 

jaymzi

Member
Jul 22, 2019
6,559
Reading through Neil's replies, the raction to this Video and Angry Joe's twitter replies it seems like the Hate died down a little and the people who loved the game are more vocal. Really happy to see that.
Not surprising. Majority of the hate came from the alt-right/anti-SJW group who used this game as the battlegrounds for the ongoing culture war.

They never played, just watched some YouTube videos about it and will now move onto hating whatever next thing they think is pushing some agenda.
 

Cloud-Strife

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 27, 2019
3,140
Reading through Neil's replies, the raction to this Video and Angry Joe's twitter replies it seems like the Hate died down a little and the people who loved the game are more vocal. Really happy to see that.

Usually the "hate" crowd even as a minority are more loud because they love to invest their time on just hating stuff they maybe didn't even try.

The people who love the game doesn't feel the need to be going to every review and post something about it because they know the game is an incredible experience.. you may like the story or not ( that can happen on any game .. I'm looking at you Mass Effect 3 ) but is hard to deny that ND had the balls to take this path and achieve something that other games just dream to do.
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,339
You are meant to hate playing as Abby and then the same when you go back one last time as Ellie.

Too many games make it easy for you to justify revenge. this game does the complete opposite. and thats why its so ambitious.
That's exactly why they failed from the start because I was 100% on Abby's side even when the big thing happened. It was so obvious there was a story behind her actions that I never got angry, I never wanted to kill Abby; I wanted to see her side of the story and when we did get to see that (in excruciatingly long unneeded detail), I felt bored because of how on the nose everything was. It may have been ambitious, but the game was also 10 hours too long and repetitive.
 

-Peabody-

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,601
I get what the video was going for (and it's a pretty good summary of the game's structure) but it's a little too "look at how ambitious the overall narrative is" and less about whether the moment to moment gameplay is in service of the larger story. And dear god that last line is so hokey.

The thing is if you aren't actually pissed off that Joel died then the momentum for the first half of the game kind of falls apart. Joel is built up as this morally ambiguous person that found solace in someone that reminded him of his daughter but the first thought I had when he died was "Yeah, knowing Joel he probably did something bad enough to deserve it."
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,669
That's exactly why they failed from the start because I was 100% on Abby's side even when the big thing happened. It was so obvious there was a story behind her actions that I never got angry, I never wanted to kill Abby; I wanted to see her side of the story and when we did get to see that (in excruciatingly long unneeded detail), I felt bored because of how on the nose everything was. It may have been ambitious, but the game was also 10 hours too long and repetitive.

I agree. I can appreciate and understand everything they set out to achieve, and think they largely succeeded aside from the misstep of fake ending about a dozen times. But I was absolutely exhausted by the end of this and wanted it to end. I was absolutely done with Seattle as a setting by the time I was even halfway through Abby. Both characters could have lost some of their first days and it would have been so much tighter. The seraphite storyline is just not strong enough for how much of the game it takes

On topic: a wonderful review. It's a shame it was shaped as much by the outside reaction to the game as it was their own reactions to it.
 

Knight613

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,846
San Francisco
I agree. I can appreciate and understand everything they set out to achieve, and think they largely succeeded aside from the misstep of fake ending about a dozen times. But I was absolutely exhausted by the end of this and wanted it to end. I was absolutely done with Seattle as a setting by the time I was even halfway through Abby. Both characters could have lost some of their first days and it would have been so much tighter. The seraphite storyline is just not strong enough for how much of the game it takes

On topic: a wonderful review. It's a shame it was shaped as much by the outside reaction to the game as it was their own reactions to it.
I agree that the first day was maybe too long for both Ellie and Abby. When you do a chapter breakdown, Day 1 for both had like twice as many chapters as Day 2 and Day 3.

That said from a gameplay standpoint though, I liked most if not all of the Day 1 locations. So I wouldn't be able to pick what I'd cut from it.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,669
I agree that the first day was maybe too long for both Ellie and Abby. When you do a chapter breakdown, Day 1 for both had like twice as many chapters as Day 2 and Day 3.

That said from a gameplay standpoint though, I liked most if not all of the Day 1 locations. So I wouldn't be able to pick what I'd cut from it.

Day 1 was exciting because it was still new and fresh imo. I feel like they both peaked at day 2, which for Abby's case is probably the thing most everyone can agree with. I don't think it helps how much of the game is literally walking through empty building corridors and sliding between walls etc. It's weird, on one hand I can acknowledge the game is too long, but at the same time feel it was almost necessary, especially in Abby/Lev's case, because the game needed time for quips and journeying before shit truly hits the fan to build up the audience caring. The split narrative loses the focus the first had that it needs for the story, but that the game underneath is just not interesting enough to sustain.
 

Cloud-Strife

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 27, 2019
3,140
I agree that the first day was maybe too long for both Ellie and Abby. When you do a chapter breakdown, Day 1 for both had like twice as many chapters as Day 2 and Day 3.

That said from a gameplay standpoint though, I liked most if not all of the Day 1 locations. So I wouldn't be able to pick what I'd cut from it.

I think this is not a problem with the game but mostly about what the average player expect in length.

Some people like 10-15 hours games and others like 25+ hours games.

Resident Evil 3 was a fun game but not on my top 10 of the year because is extremely short.

TLOU 2 was a long game for me of course but I played it in short session and it was just great. I understand also that maybe some people who likes to do 8-10 hour sessions got burn out at some point with a game so intense and long.

If the game only had 10-12 hours of gameplay long I'm sure another part of the community would be unhappy about it also.
 

Keylow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
I can totally see people getting burnt out because of the length. When I started to play Abby I was like I don't want to play her. Lol fuck her so I basically turned the game off a took a day off of it so when I came back to me it was like starting the game again all over and went from their and grew to like her arc in the game. The game can be exhausting at times.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,113
I get what the video was going for (and it's a pretty good summary of the game's structure) but it's a little too "look at how ambitious the overall narrative is" and less about whether the moment to moment gameplay is in service of the larger story. And dear god that last line is so hokey.

The thing is if you aren't actually pissed off that Joel died then the momentum for the first half of the game kind of falls apart. Joel is built up as this morally ambiguous person that found solace in someone that reminded him of his daughter but the first thought I had when he died was "Yeah, knowing Joel he probably did something bad enough to deserve it."

If you felt nothing over Ellie being forced to watch than you probably weren't really attached at all to the characters to begin with, so it was never going to hook you. I really love Joel's character, was sad he died, but don't think anyone who even slightly understood his character, thought he wouldn't have plenty who understandably want him dead, I doubt many was surprised it was by former Fireflies, Joel did a lot of bad things. But Ellie being forced to watch is what pissed me off and put me perfectly into Ellie's mindset of killing all the fuckers for her half, her being there and begging and pleading is what make it more than just a shocking death, her by his grave and in his house is what really makes it sad.
 
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Jmvm

Member
Oct 31, 2017
508
Stubbington, UK
Would it not be the point that you are supposed to be tired? I mean, TLOU was never supposed to be a feel good game. Neither of them are. On the first game Joel is there for himself only. He saved Ellie because of is own selfishness. Abby father would sacrifice another live pursuing is own goals, but may not make the same decision if it would be is own daughter.

I felt weary not because of the length of the game, but because the character purpose was taking me on a path of no return. Did I want Ellie to become Joel? Because this was what was happening. The dialogue, the mannerism of Ellie with adversaries.

Abby became what she was because of hatred and a thirst for revenge. And when she finally got what she craved, she had nothing else left. She ostracised every one else to get there
And I think this is the idea. There are no winners or good deeds to be had on this world. Scars are homicidal maniacs that kill the ones who digress from them on a brutal fashion. The wolves killed scar children and are willing to exterminate thousand of people because they cannot compromise.

At the end of the day, the only blameless one are the infected. They, unlike the humans, have no choice on their actions
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
The reference I made was their response to a wonderfully animated cutscene. And even if say, the game fell short when it came to explicit animation blending, that's still no excuse to call the people who worked on it lazy.

Definitely will agree with the lazy comment. If anything Respawn was just really pressed for time.
 

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,125
That was an excellent video. Perfectly captured my thoughts while playing. I don't understand how can hate this van be after playing it, but to each their own.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,072
South Central Los Angeles
Would it not be the point that you are supposed to be tired? I mean, TLOU was never supposed to be a feel good game. Neither of them are. On the first game Joel is there for himself only. He saved Ellie because of is own selfishness. Abby father would sacrifice another live pursuing is own goals, but may not make the same decision if it would be is own daughter.

I felt weary not because of the length of the game, but because the character purpose was taking me on a path of no return. Did I want Ellie to become Joel? Because this was what was happening. The dialogue, the mannerism of Ellie with adversaries.

Abby became what she was because of hatred and a thirst for revenge. And when she finally got what she craved, she had nothing else left. She ostracised every one else to get there
And I think this is the idea. There are no winners or good deeds to be had on this world. Scars are homicidal maniacs that kill the ones who digress from them on a brutal fashion. The wolves killed scar children and are willing to exterminate thousand of people because they cannot compromise.

At the end of the day, the only blameless one are the infected. They, unlike the humans, have no choice on their actions

I was exhausted. I'm not sure if my exhaustion was a result of the length of the game and its pacing, or just the unresolved concern I had for these characters and my inability to stop them.

I'm sure this was deliberate. Naughty Dog didn't want us to just witness Ellie realize how hollow and consuming her mission was, they wanted us to feel that realization.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,170
Los Angeles, CA
What a great analysis. I'm not a fan of reviews, so I don't follow that stuff, but this was incredibly well done, and she echoed my thoughts on the game pretty much to the T.
 

timerhyme

Member
Apr 19, 2018
449
Fantastic video. It' so well put, and like others have mentioned in this thread, is a great contrast to the "honest" reviews that I'm honestly tired from with their points being "revenge is bad" or "this [action] is so out of character!". This channel is pure awesome, and I hope they keep going strong with these fantastic reviews!
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,786
I was exhausted. I'm not sure if my exhaustion was a result of the length of the game and its pacing, or just the unresolved concern I had for these characters and my inability to stop them.

I'm sure this was deliberate. Naughty Dog didn't want us to just witness Ellie realize how hollow and consuming her mission was, they wanted us to feel that realization.
Being exhausted by the end was absolutely intended. Ashley herself even said she was exhausted by the end even knowing what happens. You're supposed to feel so bad about what Ellie is doing and then relieved after.
 

Aprikurt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,796
I'm sorry, this analysis is too mature for me. They didn't even scream "WHAT THE FUCK?" at the sex scene. I can't be a part of this.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I'll be honest, I've been very critical of them in the past for various reasons and I don't really like the format of most of their videos even though I find the writing to be largely good. This however was great. Good on them and for knowing they'd have to deal with the chuds.
 

OneEyedJuliet

Member
Jan 20, 2020
1,051
Does anybody else get the feeling that Abby elicits so much hate because certain gamers simply refuse to empathize with women, especially women they don't find conventionally attractive?

I keep being reminded of AC Odyssey, where Kassandra is canonically the main character, and plot-wise makes more sense to play as her (The Amazons quest line and the Amazon legendary armor comes to mind), yet the majority of players chose Alexios, even though his VA is terrible.

Would they have felt different about the game if Abby was a male character, instead? Would they have felt it was easier to relate to a guy?
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,786
Does anybody else get the feeling that Abby elicits so much hate because certain gamers simply refuse to empathize with women, especially women they don't find conventionally attractive?

I keep being reminded of AC Odyssey, where Kassandra is canonically the main character, and plot-wise makes more sense to play as her (The Amazons quest line and the Amazon legendary armor comes to mind), yet the majority of players chose Alexios, even though his VA is terrible.

Would they have felt different about the game if Abby was a male character, instead? Would they have felt it was easier to relate to a guy?
It's a combination of things. "Gamers" love to self insert. They saw Joel as badass and a "perfect" daddy, and that killing him off in any other way than a blaze of glory sacrifice was "character assassination". So the fact that it realistically was a woman that was getting revenge, and she got super muscular, made some people despise her and think it was Neil being "an sjw cuck" spitting on Joel.
 

Dever

Member
Dec 25, 2019
5,369
What a great analysis. I'm not a fan of reviews, so I don't follow that stuff, but this was incredibly well done, and she echoed my thoughts on the game pretty much to the T.

You can't go wrong spending an evening bingeing their content, it's all so good, heavily recommended
 

OneEyedJuliet

Member
Jan 20, 2020
1,051
It's a combination of things. "Gamers" love to self insert. They saw Joel as badass and a "perfect" daddy, and that killing him off in any other way than a blaze of glory sacrifice was "character assassination". So the fact that it realistically was a woman that was getting revenge, and she got super muscular, made some people despise her and think it was Neil being "an sjw cuck" spitting on Joel.
That's kinda sad. Mostly because of how much they're missing because they're too busy being bitter about not being the center of the universe.
 

Donepalace

Member
Mar 16, 2019
2,628
I dont get the people complaining about Joels death being for no reason or not respecting the character but they'd be the same ones giving out about plot armour and such in most franchises nowadays like angry joe as an example complained like fuck about plot armour in GOTs SEASON 8
Naughty dog took huge balls doing the story that way now he freaks out joel being killed and disrespected.

Joels death was a brutal way to go and actually puts the whole story in motion and his brutal death fit the world these people are in so I don't think his death was just for shock factor it was shocking yes but it had a big purpose to the overall narrative

a great example of this i can think of is ned stark in game of thrones hes the main character in season 1 then gets taken out in the finale setting up the story for the future seasons how come that's not a problem but now this is

i think its just people being crybabies because they didn't get what they wanted
 

Skux

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,942
It's a combination of things. "Gamers" love to self insert. They saw Joel as badass and a "perfect" daddy, and that killing him off in any other way than a blaze of glory sacrifice was "character assassination". So the fact that it realistically was a woman that was getting revenge, and she got super muscular, made some people despise her and think it was Neil being "an sjw cuck" spitting on Joel.

I get where this feeling comes from but it just feels so immature and insecure. Imagine tying your personality so tightly to a fictional character that you feel personally insulted when their story doesn't end how you think it should have.

It's this selfishness, lack of empathy, and failure to see the bigger picture that I brought up earlier that seems to be the heart of the toxic reaction to the game (the way I see it at least). I'm 33 and I feel like I grew out of this worldview 6 or 7 years ago. It's fiction and it can be amazing and meaningful, but at the end of the day it's just fiction.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,786
I get where this feeling comes from but it just feels so immature and insecure. Imagine tying your personality so tightly to a fictional character that you feel personally insulted when their story doesn't end how you think it should have.

It's this selfishness, lack of empathy, and failure to see the bigger picture that I brought up earlier that seems to be the heart of the toxic reaction to the game. I'm 33 and I feel like I grew out of this worldview 6 or 7 years ago.
I mean I can't even say I get where it comes from, anyone that's older than like 20 especially and still thinking that....time to grow up. Angry Joe is what, closer to 40 and doing all of that shit. Immature is an understatement.
 

Donepalace

Member
Mar 16, 2019
2,628
Once angry joe saw the leaks and what a backlash it was getting I think he's keeping it going simply because he knows it will result in more clicks =more dollars this is the sadly power of negativity with YouTube content

Fair enough he thought that way when reading the overall synopsis it doesn't look like a good story but after playing the game insultingly throughout I might add and he still thinks that way naa

There's certain games that you can play with friends and have fun but LOU2 is not one of those games imo it's asking for the players full attention just like a movie or book would.
 

jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
Do people struggle to look beyond their own (or the protagonists) perspective in media?

I think whether or not The Last of Us Part II works for people (and this video reaffirms this) hinges on whether or not you're angry at Abby for killing Joel. That emotion is largely what should drive players during the first half of the game, and then contribute to a lot of the emotional weight and payoffs in the second half as you slowly come to terms with the idea that Abby is not just some expendable video game villain; she's a real person, with understandable reasons for killing Joel, and is arguably even one of the more 'decent' people within the context of that world.

The problem is that I didn't have this experience. I wasn't angry at Abby. And I love Joel for the record. But I knew there were plenty of reasons for someone to want him dead. I also knew that narrative conventions exist, and that his death was very likely the consequence of his choice at the end of the first game. Which meant that my very first thought was to assume that Abby was the daughter of one of the Firefly doctors at Saint Mary's Hospital. Or at the very least one who knew he had robbed humanity of the cure.

I've been reading a lot of takes since finishing the game, and I'm surprised that so few people had this experience. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but…shouldn't this have been obvious? Abby and her group had clearly traveled across the country to literally hunt Joel down. You don't do that without a very good reason. She also spared Ellie and Tommy, which should have said a lot about her character. I spent the entirety of Ellie's three days in Seattle anticipating the moment when the game would show me Abby's POV. From about two hours into the game, I had guessed the entire structure of the story and most of the biggest plot beats.

Now, I imagine some of you are thinking "So what? A story being predictable doesn't make it bad!" And generally I would agree with that, but...it took me twenty hours to make it to Abby's Day 1. That's a very long time, and because Naughty Dog had (from my perspective) completely failed to get me invested in Ellie's revenge quest…the first half of the game dragged. It doesn't help that most of the partner characters in this section (Dina & Jessie) are fairly shallow overall, and don't challenge Ellie's views in any real way. I know this will vary from person to person, but I didn't find many of their interactions to be compelling. Dina and Ellie's relationship is paper thin.

And then the second half of the game rolls around, and it goes to great, incredibly unsubtle lengths to humanize and redeem a character that I already assumed had a pretty good justification for killing Joel. I did end up liking Abby as a character, but...I didn't get any of those moments of self-reflection that I imagine Naughty Dog were intending the player to have, as you question your earlier feelings towards her. The side characters were a letdown in the section as well. I do like Owen (who is probably the best human in the story) and Abby's relationship with him is cute, but Lev and Yara? How are they so popular? Their dynamic with Abby is shallow, and it feels like Abby's determination to save them comes more from her need to do something good than anything they were bringing to the table. I don't dislike them, but passing the basic threshold of likeability isn't really enough tbh.

Ultimately, I think the central theme of the game is that of empathy. Ellie's quest for revenge is just a vehicle for putting the player through an experience that will hopefully make them question themselves as their views towards certain characters change over the course of the game. We get to see lots of different perspectives, and see how each group feels justified in their actions. We're supposed to contrast and compare Ellie and Abby, and realize that they're actually on the exact same path, just at different phases of it. We're supposed to recognize through Abby's campaign that killing Joel ultimately didn't give her any closure, adding to the senselessness of what Ellie is doing. And by the very end of the game we're supposed to be very uncomfortable with what Ellie has become, meaning the decision to let Abby go should be a relief.

I still feel that this wasn't a story worth telling, and that the ending of the first game is weaker now that this exists. I feel that Part II is very poorly paced and heavy handed in its themes. Again, I feel that the character relationships are very shallow for the most part. I feel like there's almost nothing to dwell on after completing it.

One thing I will praise the game for, is that despite Joel dying very early in the runtime, he permeates throughout the story of the entire game. Almost every other character in the story is on their trajectory because of him. He really is still a major character in this, and the idea that Part II is 'disrespectful' towards him in any way is laughable tbh. If anything it's actually an incredibly positive portrayal. We see so many touching moments between him and Ellie in the flashbacks. One of my favourite sections of the game was when we explored his house, and got to learn more about what he had been doing in the years since the first game. Seeing the pictures of his two daughters on the table. Seeing that he was reading up on Space before bed, so that he'd have more to talk to Ellie about. That it was Ellie remembering how much she wanted to forgive Joel that ultimately allowed her to let Abby go at the end of the game. And the tragedy that her quest for revenge still cost her absolutely everything, including the last connection she had to Joel in playing the guitar.

Though I don't agree with your take, I prefer your kind of criticism of the story.
 

Yuuber

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,155
I couldn't believe how well written the text is for this video. I mean, you could see they have a knack for writing, but this is such a rich analysis in only 10 minutes. Bravo.

The Last of Us Part II is a gem.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
Why is there now a push for "If you don't think the story is ambitious and a total success, you're either immature or lack empathy" from some incredibly vocal defenders? Seems like a dramatic escalation of defense to me that has sucked what little nuance was left to criticism of the story out of the room after the trolls took their pound of flesh as well and have made it nearly impossible to discuss without the specter of their unrelenting aggression hanging over everything. It's not just people who are angry that Joel died and dislike Abby for crying out loud, there's been a lot of genuine criticism leveled specifically at what the game posits to be its themes and how it executes them. Discussions about the way the game paces itself and whether or not you as the player/individual actually take any value away or buy into the game's themes and ideas are perfectly valid areas to descent from others. There's also perfectly valid criticism of how the game tries to marry gameplay to its greater story and so on and so forth.

Great that some people enjoy it, and clearly TGR enjoyed it here in this video too, but can we stop with the unnecessary condescension whenever criticism enters the room?
 

stryke

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,347
This review was so eloquently written, I'm jealous how well they can express my own feelings on the game.
 

Voytek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,834
A youtuber who actually understood the story and what ND was going for. How refreshing.