Extremely smug at these referendum stats today. Believed in a ref on the final deal for a year and a half :)
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UK and EU negotiators have agreed on a Brexit deal
- Thread starter ReactionShot
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Can definitely agree that the vote should never have happened, even after the results there was probably opportunity for David to walk it back by just simply not implementing it, say they were working on it, allow time to pass do serious studies on what a no deal brexit could mean and so on, and then shock and awe people with the results of such studies, likely giving him enough opportunity to cancel the thing in some form or another, even Theresa May might have been able to pull this off.
Anyway definitely don't expect the position to change very significantly in just 4 years, I am thinking about decades here, the current deal isn't terrible, it is just not as good as it once was, and likely improvements on it could be had in the future as opinions shift further in remain favor (not that it would be called remain at that point), straight up canceling the entire thing (even if possible) would IMO do more harm than good, while it might seem obvious this is the best outcome of a brexit deal that isn't EU membership by most effects, for leavers canceling brexit would give them the narrative they require to go back it could have been glorious, but see we had a clear remainer as our leader, and that is why she canceled it and so on and so forth.
In the end there is no easy way out right now, you either inflict massive economic or political damage in the short term by either going no deal brexit or canceling brexit (once again assuming it is possible), or you go for this new deal and hope the divide heals into a strong pro EU position, given that this gives labor a significant shot at becoming the party in power for many years the necessary changes to make the best out of it is certainly within grasp.
Obviously no way to know one way or the other, but yeah definitely think canceling brexit (yet again if possible which there would need to be certainty before even trying), or going no deal brexit which are the current alternatives to this deal would lead to very big short/medium term problems.
I don't see it any more. Seeing quite a lot of regret, especially from the people who voted as a protest because they assumed remain would win anyway.
I think he's an actual believer in leaving the EU, he just wants to do it in an organised fashion (like Dunkirk)
Procedurally, assuming good will on both sides, Scottish independence is actually a wee bit easier than exiting the EU, simply because there's no defined mechanism with a guillotine. No hard deadline, no prohibition on future trade talks with a current member, the scope is greater (although not as much as you'd think given the devolved institutions, separate legal systems and the rUK infrastructure which would remain in Scotland) but as the mechanism and strictures around leaving aren't as defined and as strict as those leaving the EU are. For instance, you could easily ramp down (or up depending on your pov) independent capabilities as and when they're ready, in a way the EU's legal system doesn't allow.
It's different for the EU, they told the UK exactly how it would go before England chose to do it. It wasn't out of malice or lack of good will (I remember the utter bafflement on the Today programme when EU's trade commissioner said pre referendum we can't negotiate a trade deal with you before you actually leave). It's went the only way it could go. It's pretty much written into their treaties, the EU as currently constructed doesn't really have that much wiggle room. Those strictures were part of a treaty the country signed up to. I'm actually surprised they've went as far as they've went, and frankly I'm not sure deal the EU have signed up to would stand a CJEU case (and a number of EU legal commentators have said the same), it's very clearly infringing on A218 territory.
A50 of the Lisbon treaty was badly written, but it was written and agreed to. A freer process would have been easier for both parties, even if the EU would lose some leverage but they can't just dis-apply the treaties to themselves.
Basically, Scotland becoming independent would be a process which would probably take a decade (and frankly it'd probably involve two referendums). Leaving the EU probably should have been defined as an exit to the EEA/EFTA and then a subsequent referendum to see if the country wanted to stay there in a decades time.
Plottier Twistier: It's Jacob Rees-Mogg. He was only joking all along!
I tend to agree with the hospital manager. I could see leave winning again. People aren't interested in the minutae, they just want the end result. If it was spelt out to people that the cost of holidays abroad would increase, maybe that would make a difference.
ok, those are big issues for sure. But also the result of popular opinion. Its kind of ridiculous actually: right wing parties in Greece want the ECB to forgive large parts of their debts, right wing over here wants Greece to "pay what they owe", and somehow only the result (Europe sucks) seems to count.
The taxcode should be unified, over time, but that again rubs against right wing concerns about Brussels dictating rules.
I was a staunch NO with indyref1 , is absolutely vote YES this time. Scotland and England are no longer ideologically compatible in 2018 , the countries collective viewpoints are just completely different.
If things are going to go to shit regardless then I'd rather we were the ones guiding the country than yet another Tory government who don't see Scotland as a nice place to go their hunting trips.
Sidenote - Labour aren't our saviours , Corbyn would lose a 2nd GE to the weakest and most shambolic Tory party in history
Feels like I'm watching a Game of Thrones episode. Shame I'm not British cause this would be good entertainment.
these aren't normal times, a better Labour leader could just as easily lose support in this loony bin of a country.
Picking up a few pro EU tories in the shires etc isn't any good.
I mean you say that but at the moment, I don't think even England is ideologically compatible with itself lol.
The UK is a mess in general. :P
Scotland defiently need to get out. I'm half Scottish was so disappointed they voted to stay in the union.
Irony considering if Scotland hadn't voted for the Scottish Conservatives in protest we wouldnt have this Conservative government right now
May is objectively incompetent but they're all complaining that May has been useless at an impossible fucking task.
She basically had the job of bringing the Tory party together on a single option because Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems sure as hell weren't going to help. That's the advantage Labour and the rest have. Whatever deal she comes up with, they will never support it so she has to unify the Tory caucus.
She basically had the job of bringing the Tory party together on a single option because Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems sure as hell weren't going to help. That's the advantage Labour and the rest have. Whatever deal she comes up with, they will never support it so she has to unify the Tory caucus.
Nope they just got lucky.... Labour aren't 4d chess masters
The idiots in Scotland who want it both ways. Enjoy a devolved parliament and vote SNP/Labour for all the social benefits, run to Tories post-2014 if independence is mentioned as "strongest Unionist party". Both Labour and the Conservatives successfully tactically made the snap election all about Scottish independence, then Scottish Labour pretty much ended on "vote Tory to keep the SNP out of Westminster". Costing Dugdale her job.
Labour played their part in the snap election fuckery in Scotland.
At times they basically just act like red Tories up here.
What's cute about this particular one, is that if you look at the original tweet by Sheryll Murray, her display pic on the tweet is a selfie with May, lol!
A handful of regular Tory seats returned to the Tories (after the monumental, unthinkable 56 or so seats they got at the prior election)... So what on earth are you talking about? It is not Scotland's fault that tens upon tens of Tory seats in SE England could be won by monekys in a blue rosette.
more than a million people marched in london against invading iraq. i'm sure a million leavers would have signed a petition for a second referendum if they lost. basically, this means nothing.
We haven't returned more than 1~2 Tory MPs to London since forever. The snap election was a self-own for Scotland, but some of that blame lies on Scottish Labour going full "Unionist drum beating" rather than objecting to Tory nonsense/Brexit. So much so the tactical shift was "just vote for the most popular UK unionist party" rather than Scottish Labour having any dignity and trying to win seats themselves.
I was basically getting Labour leaflets through my door that were mostly just "Don't let Scotland become independent", with hardly anything said about Brexit.
People up here manipulated and scared thinking Brexit would be okay, the real threat is indyref2. Meanwhile, here we are now, with most of us going "told you so" to dipshits in Scotland.
What a shambles. Bring on another indyref and I pray Scotland will make the correct decision this time and get us the fuck out of this Tory shitshow.
I'm not sure how you could say either way. It's a dangerous game.
Presumably the Mereen parts, where nothing seems to change and everyone is threatening to rebel against everyone else while a leader is forced to accept a terrible deal just to stay in power for a few more days.
labour is the only chance we have though. what are the alternatives? don't say lib-dems. be realistic
Who in their right mind would want the Brexit Secretary job?
"Let's start re-negotiating from scratch..."
"Let's start re-negotiating from scratch..."
Maybe, maybe not. But what some people have been asking them to do for ages now (resist Brexit entirely, push for a second referendum) always looked like terrible tactics, from the perspectives of stopping Brexit, getting a better deal or not tanking their chances of being elected.
Especially given it's clear from the last two that they really don't do anything of note anyway. They stand there looking dumb whilst people explain to them that we're an island etc.
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