Uhhh... what the hell is that rape "dynamic NPC event" in RDR2?
- Thread starter Memento
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Because as I stated earlier that's what the game is. If this scene were to appear in another game out of nowhere I would be up in arms with the rest of you. But this is what Rockstar games are. It's a game where you can slaughter entire towns and beat the shit out of innocents on a whim. GTA takes it to the extreme as well. You can kill prostitutes after having sex with them, run random people over on the streets, become a cop killer etc. The whole point of these series is to show you the worst of humanity, rape included.
I would understand if people want to condemn these games as a whole. They would probably raise some good points. But why should rape not be allowed when literally everything else is? What makes rape (one that has nothing to do with the main story, is totally optional and occurs off-screen) worse than mowing down a dozen people who were just going about town doing their business?
I happened across that scene as well, pretty sure its easily missed. Funny thing is I got to that scene right before the big game changing reveal and thought that scene was the reasoning for the reveal only to later find out it wasn't.
That entire scene is so funky because he stops you and you clearly know something is off. I was walking into his house with my pistol out ready for action only for the game to take away my controls and to wake up in the middle of the fields.
Super strange scene though.
That entire scene is so funky because he stops you and you clearly know something is off. I was walking into his house with my pistol out ready for action only for the game to take away my controls and to wake up in the middle of the fields.
Super strange scene though.
Part of Rockstar's open world formula is the possibility of random events happening to you. Just one of their added layer of detail strategies to aid the illusion of anything being possible in the game.
I dont know of the game, but when it comes to rape, remember most rapes are about power and dominance. rarely is it about sexual gratification. Especially male on male rape.
No. There's a whole string of side quests where you help an interracial gay couple escape the law, and they end up living peacefully in the woods.
To be fair, one can usually go to the ESRB website if they want more detail on the content that helped make the ratings decision. In the case of RDR2, the site lists:
"Rating Summary: This is an action-adventure game in which players assume the role of Arthur Morgan, a member of an outlaw gang on the run in 1899. From a first- and third-person perspective, players traverse an open-world, Wild-West environment; complete mission objectives; interact with characters; and engage in gun fights with lawmen and other outlaws. Players use bows, pistols, shotguns, rifles, and explosives to kill enemies in frenetic combat; shooting enemies occasionally triggers a close-up, slow-motion view of enemies getting shot and killed. Players can also use tomahawks and knives to perform stealth kills to eliminate enemies discreetly. Large blood-splatter effects occur during battle, and some weapon attacks result in decapitation and/or dismemberment, leaving bloodstains and body parts on the ground. Campsites and cabin environments sometimes depict severed body parts and corpses with exposed viscera. Players may also engage in various criminal activities (e.g., robbing banks, shooting civilians), though this will negatively impact players' progress (e.g., wanted status, pursuit by lawmen and/or bounty hunters). Cutscenes also depict intense acts of violence: a man executed from the gallows; a character shooting himself in the head; a man repeatedly electrocuted; a bound man set on fire. The game contains instances of nudity and brief sexual content: a woman (breasts exposed) straddling a man inside a brothel; a spanking scene that is depicted from a distance and includes a fleeting depiction of male genitalia; sexual moaning sounds inside a tent; male characters with exposed genitalia in non-sexual settings (e.g., a man swimming in a river, corpses on the ground). During the course of the game, players' character can engage in a drinking mini-game in which alcohol is poured for drunken bar patrons; players' character is also depicted drinking alcohol, sometimes resulting in screen-distortion effects and impaired controls. One of the stimulant power-ups is known as Cocaine Gum, which players' character can chew; in one scene, characters can briefly be seen smoking from an opium pipe. The words "f**k," "n**ger," and "sh*t" can be heard in the dialogue."
It does not, in any of that, mention the fact that there is sexual assault/rape portrayed in any form. I agree that there should be a little more disclosure on some level, but at the same time it's Rockstar (who has a reputation for this stuff) and it could even be forgiven if it were part of main narrative somehow or served as some kind of development device for Arthur's character. Scenes like this have been in many movies and other pieces of art and literature, and in the right context it can be an acceptable piece of a larger puzzle. This - a random event that has no lingering consequence once the random event is over - is not that. It's always going to be a sensitive topic, and I am a firm believer in not having to sanitize every piece of entertainment, but I don't think it was handled well here.
"Rating Summary: This is an action-adventure game in which players assume the role of Arthur Morgan, a member of an outlaw gang on the run in 1899. From a first- and third-person perspective, players traverse an open-world, Wild-West environment; complete mission objectives; interact with characters; and engage in gun fights with lawmen and other outlaws. Players use bows, pistols, shotguns, rifles, and explosives to kill enemies in frenetic combat; shooting enemies occasionally triggers a close-up, slow-motion view of enemies getting shot and killed. Players can also use tomahawks and knives to perform stealth kills to eliminate enemies discreetly. Large blood-splatter effects occur during battle, and some weapon attacks result in decapitation and/or dismemberment, leaving bloodstains and body parts on the ground. Campsites and cabin environments sometimes depict severed body parts and corpses with exposed viscera. Players may also engage in various criminal activities (e.g., robbing banks, shooting civilians), though this will negatively impact players' progress (e.g., wanted status, pursuit by lawmen and/or bounty hunters). Cutscenes also depict intense acts of violence: a man executed from the gallows; a character shooting himself in the head; a man repeatedly electrocuted; a bound man set on fire. The game contains instances of nudity and brief sexual content: a woman (breasts exposed) straddling a man inside a brothel; a spanking scene that is depicted from a distance and includes a fleeting depiction of male genitalia; sexual moaning sounds inside a tent; male characters with exposed genitalia in non-sexual settings (e.g., a man swimming in a river, corpses on the ground). During the course of the game, players' character can engage in a drinking mini-game in which alcohol is poured for drunken bar patrons; players' character is also depicted drinking alcohol, sometimes resulting in screen-distortion effects and impaired controls. One of the stimulant power-ups is known as Cocaine Gum, which players' character can chew; in one scene, characters can briefly be seen smoking from an opium pipe. The words "f**k," "n**ger," and "sh*t" can be heard in the dialogue."
It does not, in any of that, mention the fact that there is sexual assault/rape portrayed in any form. I agree that there should be a little more disclosure on some level, but at the same time it's Rockstar (who has a reputation for this stuff) and it could even be forgiven if it were part of main narrative somehow or served as some kind of development device for Arthur's character. Scenes like this have been in many movies and other pieces of art and literature, and in the right context it can be an acceptable piece of a larger puzzle. This - a random event that has no lingering consequence once the random event is over - is not that. It's always going to be a sensitive topic, and I am a firm believer in not having to sanitize every piece of entertainment, but I don't think it was handled well here.
They avoided the sexual violence tag by not showing sexual violence. Had they went all Pulp Fiction, the game might've been pushing AO territory.
"Sexual Content" in an M rated game should be enough warning that limits might be pushed.
Most people in this thread are rightfully condemning this event's inclusion, but I'm horrified that some defend it, and that they haven't been appropriately moderated.
Rape is not okay. Rape is not defensible. I understand the necessity to sometimes use it in a story, but given the gravity of what it is, it must be done right and with tact and to serve a larger purpose. None of those three things apply in this situation. This is just a rape for... what? It's just there. There's no rhyme, reason, or logic to it. Why is it even in the game? The whole sequence could be axed and the game would be none the poorer for it.
Fuck the inclusion of something like this in a game. You know a game that dealt with rape as it's subject matter and did it well? The Last of Us. It treated it with gravity and tact, and only to perpetuate a narrative theme. This is neither.
Rape is not okay. Rape is not defensible. I understand the necessity to sometimes use it in a story, but given the gravity of what it is, it must be done right and with tact and to serve a larger purpose. None of those three things apply in this situation. This is just a rape for... what? It's just there. There's no rhyme, reason, or logic to it. Why is it even in the game? The whole sequence could be axed and the game would be none the poorer for it.
Fuck the inclusion of something like this in a game. You know a game that dealt with rape as it's subject matter and did it well? The Last of Us. It treated it with gravity and tact, and only to perpetuate a narrative theme. This is neither.
Hah. Sexual content is pushing limits now? That's news to me.
"Sexual Content - Non-explicit depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including partial nudity" - ESBR
This doesn't in any way imply rape or sexual assault, especially not since there is another tag for it. If my character is gonna be sexually assaulted while my control over what is going on is taken away, I expect that to be at least mild sexual violence ("When a Content Descriptor is preceded by the term "Mild" it is intended to convey low frequency, intensity or severity.") or that it would be mentioned in the text description that accompanies the rating. Black screen doesn't matter, it's still gonna trigger PTSD for people for absolutely no reason at all except Rockstar being "so coooool" in the eyes of icky people.
This thread is a large example of why current rating standards or descriptions are inadequate and why trigger warnings are important. Many people simply don't have awareness of or empathy for victims of rape and how certain things impact them while to others they are just another trivial part of the game.
To some degree that is an understandable and even encouraging thing that many have never experienced rape or sexual violence, that is a type of privilege I would never begrudge a person and one I wish we could all share. On a personal level we should all strive to understand and increase our empathy of the struggles of others.
On a practical level however, with more fleshed out warnings from either ratings or trigger warnings we can side step the whole "This subject should not be taboo for gaming" argument while not suddenly catching a past victim off guard and causing them harm. Even better would be options to omit such matters from game play entirely so that even they can enjoy the game while reserving the full experience for people to partake in if they so wish.
This is an entirely separate matter from criticisms of how the topic is actually handled and portrayed, though. That is an area that can always improve even with proper warnings in place.
To some degree that is an understandable and even encouraging thing that many have never experienced rape or sexual violence, that is a type of privilege I would never begrudge a person and one I wish we could all share. On a personal level we should all strive to understand and increase our empathy of the struggles of others.
On a practical level however, with more fleshed out warnings from either ratings or trigger warnings we can side step the whole "This subject should not be taboo for gaming" argument while not suddenly catching a past victim off guard and causing them harm. Even better would be options to omit such matters from game play entirely so that even they can enjoy the game while reserving the full experience for people to partake in if they so wish.
This is an entirely separate matter from criticisms of how the topic is actually handled and portrayed, though. That is an area that can always improve even with proper warnings in place.
Unfortunately.....rape occurs in real life. It would be nice to live in a world where the word "rape" didn't need to exist, but humans are capable of some really disgusting behavior. That being said, the particular scene in question wasn't very explicit. You really don't know exactly what happened, it's just sort of implied. You can argue about ratings all day, but personally, I expect to see some wild shit in a "M" rated game and I would prefer if developers continue to have the right and freedom to put whatever they want in their games.
That's definitely a no. First of all because rape isn't sex. It's like saying people should've expected "No Russian" because Call of Duty was known to feature murder. "Sexual Content" isn't even the worst ESRB can go, it actually has a "Strong Sexual Content" tag.
It absolutely insensitive for Rockstar to put that in the game without ever warning the player or giving the ability to disable content like this. Stuff like this directly affect people.
Nobody is saying stuff like this should never be featured or addressed. However, it's a very complex theme that should not be handled without care. And even then, people deserve a fair warning that the game might contain scenes that are triggers for them.
The big issue here is that a survivor of sexual assault might run into this awful ass scene completely unaware of what's about to happen and have their in-game avatar go through shit they went through themselves and would rather not.
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isn't it implied that sadie adler was raped in the intro when you save her from the o'driscolls? this game has a lot of fucked up shit so im not really surprised they included something like this hapennig to the player character, although i can see how it comes of as tasteless. i empathize with people like the OP who felt uncomfortable because of this scene but i personally had no issues with it.
It was written about in the press a bit, actually
The general response seems to be that it was well executed in that it subverts your expectations of the game while also portraying sexual violence in a pretty stark, realistic light.
Like, it made a lot of people feel violated. And that was part of the point it was trying to get across.
The general response seems to be that it was well executed in that it subverts your expectations of the game while also portraying sexual violence in a pretty stark, realistic light.
Like, it made a lot of people feel violated. And that was part of the point it was trying to get across.
Go on, name a couple of mature books, poems or movies were rape is basically used as a goofy side quests. Really curious to hear about all those movies where the main character get's raped and it's never mentioned or talked about again and it has zero relevance to the character development.
Do you remember what was actually said? With just this vague description it's hard to really get a read on the situation.
It also blows my mind events like this are all over the game. I never experienced anything like this in my two playthroughs.
The pilot episode of Always Sunny In Philadelphia has a pretty heavy handed suggestion that Dennis had a gay three-way while he was drunk. Then it's never mentioned again. Not exactly a mature or intellectual show, but it's the only example I could think of.
The issue with the scene isn't solely that it's about rape, but that it trivializes rape with its presentation. Arthur might as well have stubbed his toe, for all the weight the game gives that little episode.
Developers' right to depict sexual exploitation in M rated games is a totally separate discussion from the shortcomings of one specific scene, and whether that scene should exist in its present form.
It's hard not to be desensitized to the thousands of frivolous fictional deaths you're going to see as an average consumer. You can't say the same about sex abuse in fiction.
If you'd been raped by someone you might not appreciate some dumb random encounter giving you a nasty reminder of your trauma. And even if you aren't a sexual assault survivor, isn't it kind of off-putting that the devs would sprinkle some rape into their game just to spice things up? It doesn't really add anything to the characters, story, or setting for Arthur to get molested by a weirdo and then just go on his merry way.
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A very broad definition which RDR2 apparently belongs to under the rating system. This encounter while highly suggestive is non-explicit.
'Sexual content' could mean a wide range of things in an M rated game. As the ESRB stands, the possibility of scenes like the one in question should be considered when playing.
I know what you mean, but it is... It is by definition in fact.
No Russian is an entirely different animal with how explicit the scene is. Showing rape alone would've probably caused ESRB problems for RDR2, and obviously putting you in the hands of the rapist the way CoD sides you with terrorists would be out of the question.
OP
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I remember this part too, pretty full on.....
....I then just blew her away with a shotgun because I could 🤗
As I wrote a few pages back, can someone explain to me why murdering people isn't the same as rape in terms of being extremely volatile and sensitive content? Unlike the post you're responding to, I'm not downplaying rape in the context of media, but rather play up the significance of violent acts in games.
Is it just a matter of comprehensively alerting potential players to acts of sexual violence on the ESRB warning, and then we're good to go? Or are you saying that we're all so desensitised to violence that at this point there's no point in worrying about it? As if the concerns of rape/sexual assault victims are more pertinent/sensitive than victims of violence? I honestly find it mildly alarming the extent to which posters here handwave acts of violence as "not the same thing as rape." Is it just so you don't have to confront the sensibilities you've developed over time?
Rape is a serious topic that shouldn't be covered lightly. The same should really be said of violence and yet here we are. Happily grinning ear to ear as we blow people's heads off. At least be cognisant of the potential double-standard here.
Violence is different because it happens all the time and is a huge part of life. Rape isn't as frequent but is much more harder to deal with because you live your whole life affected by it.
With death people die and don't feel much. It is simply apart of life for most people, wether through murder or natrual death.
What did I just read? I dont agree with that stance.
And there is people suffering to death by being tortured.
OP
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Well I come from a country with tons of violence. I lived through war, I saw people die and even had family members die because of war. I also had family members die from natrual causes.
I have also been sexually assaulted, not raped mind you but I had someone grab my penis. I still feel terrible about it to this day and yet this is nothing compared to people who were raped. Death is much easier to deal with because at the end of the day the dead don't feel pain everyday through their whole lives.
There is a reason one of the biggest reasons for suicide is rape.
Dude looks like buffalo bill from silence of the lamps, doesn't he?
That violence is more prevalent doesn't suggest it should be taken more lightly in the realm of video games to me.
Sure, when you die you're dead, when you're raped, you have to live with the consequences - but what if you're beaten? Or seriously injured? Or survive a near-death experience? Or as you touch on a few posts below - what about those who've lost friends and family? The ones left behind? You don't think they're going to face serious trauma from all of that? I'm not sure why anything you've described should mean that violence shouldn't be handled with care and tact in the realm of video games/art.
The fact that you see it as such a normal consistent way of life that affects more people suggests that it needs to be handled with far greater care in video games. Violence shouldn't be normal but video games consistently normalise it as either a necessary means to an end, or a trivial blast of fun.
I said why in my other post. Violence is frequently happening in life.
People are being paid to beat eachother until the other falls. People kill animals to eat and survive or even make materials out of them. Most people are affected by death and violence but learn to live with them and as more time goes on the less they think about it. At the end of the day death means peace to the person who died.
Rape doesn't, you will always remember it and feel disgusted. You will always feel powerless at not being able to stop it. Rape doesn't happen all the time while death does which is why the two are very different. And from my experience yes, death is much less heavy to bear compared to sexual assault and rape.
A war veteran with PTSD looks at the cover and promotional materials for Red Dead Redemption, and they can immediately intuit "If I want to play this game without activating my triggers for gunshots, etc., I should prepare myself so I can be in the right frame of mind."
A rape victim has no such luxury, they have no idea that this is coming and no way to prepare for it to play the game safely unless they lurk discussions about it like this one.
Okay but neither your personal anecdote nor the notion that violence is more frequent than sexual assault excuse extreme violence as a fun escapist pasttime in video games. Are there living people traumatised by violence? I'd imagine so, yes. Is violence trivialised and undermined by video games? I'd say so, yes. You can't just handwave these things because you feel it's not as heavy a burden as sexual assault/rape.
The dissonance to be able to, within the same thread, say "How dare Rockstar portray rape in this game in such a trivial way. This is a sensitive matter and you need to be empathetic to those affected by it" and then turn and say "but violence in video games is fine. Trust me, it's less heavy to bear and it's super prevalent so it's all good" is pretty wack.
Yeah, I mentioned this in a previous post. So you're saying it just comes down to a warning in advance and that's the only difference? I'd still argue that had the ESRB slapped a big "rape scene" on the front cover, that this is still not a tactful way of approaching rape in a video game. Likewise, that a player is aware of the overwhelming violence going into a game doesn't mean that it's a tactful implementation of that violence.
And even if a war veteran with PTSD knows to avoid violent games, it seems ridiculous that they'd have to avoid, what, 70% of all video games because they're filled to the brim with tasteless, trivialised violence.
One day I hope this industry starts reconciling how appallingly and nonchalantly violent it is.
How do people not know about this??? I swear we were discussing this on day 3 of launch after RDR2, on that sunday or monday.
For years, games like Resident Evil have had a blood and gore warning at the beginning of the game. There's no reason not to have a similar warning at the beginning of RDR2 for this kind of content. Developers should be free to put this type of content in the game, but they should also include warnings for those that suffer from trauma and PTSD related to rape.
I just went to the location and if you kill him before he does anything to you then you lose honor wtf
Well I experienced both these things. Violence is way less affecting compared to rape/sexual assaults. I have seen people die, lose limbs, die naturally and more. It never affected me or those around me as much, with time it healed these things.
But okay, keep telling me how violence is worse.
I think I recall hearing that NPC calling to me. Alas, I was being chased when I passed there (the cops were slightly mad that I had murdered a bunch of people, go figure) so I was just wen by the house and never really came back to it.
Kinda weird that this would make it, but this game does seem to have a bit of everything. Even vampires. So.. yeah... the one with the very large husband and wife is also super weird.
Kinda weird that this would make it, but this game does seem to have a bit of everything. Even vampires. So.. yeah... the one with the very large husband and wife is also super weird.
It's a bit too dark. I appreciate that they actually had a grown man that was raped rather than somehow involving a woman that needs help from Arthur instead, but it's still a bit too dark.
Thankfully it's one of those things that are hard to find unless you're intentionally looking for it, so when I found out about it a few days after the game came out I made a point to travel to the cabin and kill him.
While I have not played the game I would argue that with an M rating R* did what they had to do to prepare people for what to expect, neither CDs with songs about rape or movies (Irreversible/ Dogville for example) have a specific warning attached.
Its not that outlandish to expect some shocking themes, especially if a game has foul language, burning crosses, extremely detailed violence etc. to boot.
I am not supporting a badly implemented act of rape mind you.
Its not that outlandish to expect some shocking themes, especially if a game has foul language, burning crosses, extremely detailed violence etc. to boot.
I am not supporting a badly implemented act of rape mind you.
Well, you're never even forced to kill anyone in No Russian. Player agency isn't exactly the issue here. That mission was shocking for most people, hence all the controversy about it, and the game never even warns you what it is coming. It wasn't until Modern Warfare 2 that Infinity Ward started to put up a warning before the game even starts, with the option to skip the offensive content. This is the correct way to do this. Explicitly say what the player may see in the game, and give the option to not see it at all.
No matter how subtle it is, that scene in RDR2 is still obvious enough for the player to realize what happened, and that is still a trigger for survivors of sexual assault. At the end of the day, no matter how much anyone claims that the game is more of a simulator or how it specifically tries to portrait the actual old west (which I'm pretty sure it's not that accurate), games are supposed to be enjoyable experiences. Having your PTSD directly affected by a pointless rape scene that has the narrative impact of a fart in the wind does not come across as enjoyable to me.
A warning constitutes the bare minimum of what would be respectful to people who suffer from PTSD triggers and similar trauma, is what I'd suggest. Not necessarily so they can avoid it, but be prepared for it. Because if these things happen unexpectedly and cause a trigger, that can in the worst cases undo years or even decades of work in therapy.