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armadillopoke

Banned
May 14, 2020
342
You think Tim Sweeney, of all people, will push for DRM free ownership of PC games with his history of bullshit and hypocrisy?
Not necessarily, but if we can all agree that the goal is digital ownership (and hopefully no DRM) then I don't see why the reaction every time he talks is 'stop stealing games from Steam!'. Having all your licenses to use digital software you've paid for but don't own all tied to one platform doesn't make the idea of digital ownership any more real or achieved than having them split across several stores.
 

Nere

Member
Dec 8, 2017
2,168
Then why is he removing Rocket league from potential new buyers in steam? Why is he delaying releases on other platforms up to a year?
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,145
First thing is you can't have cross platform ownership if games are not available on other platforms. What's the point of his words if Epic games are only available on Epic Store?

Second thing is that games are excluded from that EU regulation. You can resell your AutoCAD license but not game.


Right, okay, but you don't even have ownership on ONE platform right now.
We need to fix that first, then the rest can follow.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,145
He speaks of ownership but mentions nothing about resale. It seems to be focused on the distribution side, i.e. that buying on one store would mean access across all stores, and a central database or blockchain or whatever would be necessary to facilitate this end. But really, nothing he speaks of is really intrinsic to ownership in the sense you are, of having true ownership of the digital good to do with as you please, as opposed to just, say, "you have purchased a license to use this software under specific conditions, you can't resell it or do anything else with it". Perhaps he has opinions on those, but they're not elucidated in these tweets.

Universal recognition of ownership is cool but it's very clearly something that favours big stores over little ones, because distribution of the good and maintenance of the server is not free. Or perhaps he wants to go a step further and say that all stores will just be doing API calls to each other and acting as a front end entirely removed from the back end, like a very atomised Playnite situation where each store becomes more invisible. Whatever the case, it's strange to complain about stores trying to lock people into their ecosystem and fragmenting ownership to the four winds when that's his entire modus operandi.

Right, I see what he's talking about now.

I assumed he was talking about actual ownership, he just means transfer between platforms. I couldn't care less about that.

I want these platform holders to respect EU law already. Or I want the EU to fuck them hard somehow until they do.
 
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dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,712
Right, I see what he's talking about now.

I assumed he was talking about actual ownership, he just means transfer between platforms. I couldn't care less about that.

I want these platform holders to respect EU law already. Or I want the EU to fuck them hard somehow until they do.

They respect EU law, as I said games are excluded. There was case about this against Steam in France year or two ago and law was clear, only programs are included.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,294
Not necessarily, but if we can all agree that the goal is digital ownership (and hopefully no DRM) then I don't see why the reaction every time he talks is 'stop stealing games from Steam!'. Having all your licenses to use digital software you've paid for but don't own all tied to one platform doesn't make the idea of digital ownership any more real or achieved than having them split across several stores.

Maybe it's difficult to reconcile the sincerity of arguing for more consumer power/agency in a far flung future when what what they're actualizing and profiting of in the present tense is taking away choices.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,145
They respect EU law, as I said games are excluded. There was case about this against Steam in France year or two ago and law was clear, only programs are included.
Source? All I remember and can find now is that they were court ordered to allow resale of Steam games. in 2015.
They announced an appeal in 2019 but nothing's come of it yet, as far as I can see.

Most certainly not what you're saying, that games are excluded by law. They have never been found as such.
 

Dr. Ludwig

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,525
Not necessarily, but if we can all agree that the goal is digital ownership (and hopefully no DRM) then I don't see why the reaction every time he talks is 'stop stealing games from Steam!'. Having all your licenses to use digital software you've paid for but don't own all tied to one platform doesn't make the idea of digital ownership any more real or achieved than having them split across several stores.

I would take him more seriously if he didn't in the past outright block DRM-free releases from happening. It's not just "stealing games from Steam!"

I mean... yeah, it's an "interesting" conversation to have but it's hard to engage with it when its source is so goddamned toxic.
 

armadillopoke

Banned
May 14, 2020
342
Maybe it's difficult to reconcile the sincerity of arguing for more consumer power/agency in a far flung future when what what they're profiting of in the present tense is taking away choices.
I agree; but I think there's also hypocrisy in PC gamers saying that what they want is a DRM-free, digital ownership future and then throwing in their lot wholesale with a platform that not only does not meet those criteria, but also has never suggested it is something they want, and is in fact completely fine with all kinds of DRM.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,237
1. Make games exclusive to your own store and pull them last second from other places.
2. Make Rocket League disappear from Steam.
3. ...
4. Demand that ownership should be universal.

At this point he just says stuff that he believes make good headlines. There is no meaning or intend behind it.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,294
I agree; but I think there's also hypocrisy in PC gamers saying that what they want is a DRM-free, digital ownership future and then throwing in their lot wholesale with a platform that not only does not meet those criteria, but also has never suggested it is something they want, and is in fact completely fine with all kinds of DRM.

I think the common pattern there is less restrictive conditions around the experience of playing games; that they don't want to be dictated how and where to consume the medium they're invested in. Some form of DRM in PC games is the norm and presumption. Platform exclusivity on top of that is more restrictive than the norm people have become accustomed to. Personally speaking, I'm not hugely bothered by DRM just because I've gotten used to it, and the things the 'DRM platform' gives me (Steam) over a DRM-free one (GOG) is more valuable to me at the moment than not having DRM on games. That's also partially because today's implementations aren't as obtrusive to my day-to-day use as Securom or GFWL dependency.

Having said that, I do buy classic games on GOG because those games rarely benefit from things like controller support, achievements, social infrastructure, etc. and I get the impression that GOG versions offer more niceties at the fringe (artwork, manuals, music), more commonly have access to different patch versions and other things like that.
 
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dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,712
Source? All I remember and can find now is that they were court ordered to allow resale of Steam games. in 2015.
They announced an appeal in 2019 but nothing's come of it yet, as far as I can see.

Most certainly not what you're saying, that games are excluded by law. They have never been found as such.

The Interactive Software Federation of Europe (ISFE) has spoken out against the French court ruling which said Steam users should be able to resell games. Saying that the ruling "contradicts established EU law and should be overturned on appeal" in a statement released today

According to EU copyright law, when it comes to digital and streaming services, every use must be subject to the authorisation of the rightholder and copyright does not expire with their first sale, as it does with physical goods. Physical goods are subject to the "distribution right" and to the "exhaustion doctrine" which means that the purchaser has the right to resell the goods if they were first put on the market with the authorisation of the copyright owner. This is not the case with digital downloads which are subject to the "communication to the public right", meaning that the purchaser does not have a right to sell them on, without the copyright owner's permission."


There was some explanation or law article saying that games are excluded too but I can't remember where.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,145

There was some explanation or law article saying that games are excluded too but I can't remember where.

Right, but what matters is what the courts have ruled.
So far, nothing which would exclude games.
These lobby groups' interpretations aren't very relevant, are they.
EU courts have ruled it's legal to resale digital software (including specifically games) on more than one occasion (at least 2012 and 2015).

That's all there's to it (so far, appeals notwithstanding).
 
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dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,712
Right, but what matters is what the courts have ruled.
So far, nothing which would exclude games.
These lobby groups' interpretations aren't very relevant, are they.
EU courts have ruled it's legal to resale digital software (including specifically games) on more than one occasion (at least 2012 and 2015).

That's all there's to it (so far, appeals notwithstanding).

No French court ruled that in case of Steam and ISFE provided quote from EU law where it's says that French court was wrong.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,145
No French court ruled that in case of Steam and ISFE provided quote from EU law where it's says that French court was wrong.

Right, but they're wrong.
Years before this courts have ruled about first-sale expiration.

That ISFE argument is nonsensical because this is not about reproduction, it's about transfer of rights for one single copy. It's hilariously misinformed in this way, even.

Nothing so far which would actually, legally exempt videogames.

www.lexology.com

EU copyright: no resale of digital content except for software?

The European Court of Justice (ECJ) has decided that the rule of exhaustion of the distribution right upon first sale (in the U.S. known as the "first…

They exempt music, video and e-books.
 

deadman322

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,396
Won't this take revenue away from developers? Developers that need that money to keep the lights on.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,073
Maybe try leading by example rather than spewing hot air, Tim.

yooka-8tj1b.png

epic-drm-3xkve.jpg
 
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dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,712
Right, but they're wrong.
Years before this courts have ruled about first-sale expiration.

That ISFE argument is nonsensical because this is not about reproduction, it's about transfer of rights for one single copy. It's hilariously misinformed in this way, even.

Nothing so far which would actually, legally exempt videogames.

www.lexology.com

EU copyright: no resale of digital content except for software?

The European Court of Justice (ECJ) has decided that the rule of exhaustion of the distribution right upon first sale (in the U.S. known as the "first…

They exempt music, video and e-books.

That's the issue with games they contain video and music from other copyright owners.

A further perspective was totally neglected by the CJEU in the UsedSoft ruling that might be summarized as follows: what if a computer program incorporates other protected subject matter as well? The present article is covering two related issues below: First, the inclusion of sound recordings, audiovisual contents or photographs/graphic works into the computer program, and Second the question of graphic user interfaces.

Irrespectively of the facts of the UsedSoft case several types of computer programs, especially computer games, include further works, for example sound recordings, audiovisual contents and photographs/graphic works. These pieces of the whole work are similarly protected by copyright law, as long as they are identifiable and surpass the threshold of originality requirement. [354] As the CJEU stressed it in its PC Box ruling: "videogames (…) constitute complex matter comprising not only a computer program but also graphic and sound elements, which, although encrypted in computer language, have a unique creative value which cannot be reduced to that encryption. In so far as the parts of a videogame, in this case, the graphic and sound elements, are part of its originality, they are protected, together with the entire work, by copyright in the context of the system established by Directive 2001/29." [355]

The latter statement, however, leads us to the need of the cautious consideration of two distinct arguments. Let's suppose that CJEU's argument in the UsedSoft case was ultimately correct. In this situation intangible computer programs would be subject to the principle of exhaustion under the lex specialis provisions of the Software Directive. On the other hand, the resale of any other subject matter in intangible form would be treated under the lex generalis provisions of the InfoSoc Directive (and the WCT Agreed Statement), and they are ultimately excluded from the scope of exhaustion. In the case of video games, however, these two statements are irreconcilable. It would mean that the program might be resold, except the sound recordings, audiovisual contents and photographs. This solution is clearly absurd. Naturally, all these uncertainties disappear, if we follow the logic expressed above and accept that the ruling of the CJEU in the UsedSoft case regarding the applicability of the exhaustion principle to intangibles is erroneous.

www.jipitec.eu

Digital First Sale Doctrine Ante Portas – Exhaustion in the Online Environment

JIPITEC 6 (2015) 1 - The purpose of the article is to provide first a doctrinal summary of the concept, rules and policy of exhaustion, first, on the international and EU level, and, later, under the law of the United States. Based upon this introduction, the paper turns to the analysis of the...

If you can sell games without music or other art go ahead.
 

morningbus

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,051
Importantly, Sweeney is talking about universal access and not universal ownership. He wants a system that has many gatekeepers and not a system with no gatekeepers.

One allows a company with a large amount of money to sit at the table on equal footing with those that have built their share through effort. The other would allow you, the consumer, to compete with the those large companies. Which one do you think Sweeney favors?
 

delete12345

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
19,776
Boston, MA
Second off, that takes a photo of all my monitors so I won't get much use out of it unless I want to crop everything. These screenshot nerds will also probably complain about the screenshot image quality.
Shift + Windows Key + S
Or Shift + Windows Key + Print Screen
Or Alt + Windows Key + Print Screen
Or Alt + Print Screen

I think there are many combinations.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
Just like it was easy for Microsoft to start tooting the cross-play horn. And yet it had a positive effect.
Not at all similar, as it's based in a Microsoft ecosystem whereas what Sweeney the Liar is talking about is store front distributors using universal owelnership lists no matter the ecosystem. Problem is Epic are doing the complete opposite.
 

Niosai

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,931
Regardless of how you feel about Epic, he's right. Not sure why people are having a pseudo console war over storefronts when that's not at all the topic here.

1. Make games exclusive to your own store and pull them last second from other places.
2. Make Rocket League disappear from Steam.
3. ...
4. Demand that ownership should be universal.

At this point he just says stuff that he believes make good headlines. There is no meaning or intend behind it.

Why does it matter if it's available on Steam when it's going F2P? It's not like they're taking away copies that have been paid for. The perceived negative effect here is negligible if it exists at all.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,237
Why does it matter if it's available on Steam when it's going F2P? It's not like they're taking away copies that have been paid for. The perceived negative effect here is negligible if it exists at all.

Because some people prefer to use a feature rich client, with build in streaming to all their home devices over a bare bones experience like EGS for example. Being able to turn on my Raspberry Pi and to stream a game to my TV from my PC is pretty neat and I'm not the only one using this feature excessively.

I don't even want to start talking about the family share feature. I bought Death Stranding and my Brother that is living 300km away is able to legally play it, when I'm, not online. There are many reasons to prefer Steam over EGS, even for a F2P game. But that's off topic and not what I was talking about in my post.

I was aiming at the sincerity behind Tim's statement. While great on paper and something that we all should rely behind. It's blind, empty opportunism without honesty. Taking a game away and making it exclusive to one store, is a contradiction to his bold demand of universaly being able to download a game from everywhere, independent of where you purchased it. Makes for a great headline, but his actions do not show any kind of intend to follow through.
 
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Rosol

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,397
I wish all the stores offered an 'ultra-lightweight' version of their launcher, just hide - verify the licenses and go hide away where I can't see them using as little resources as possible. Then let 3rd parties handle a nice integrated system with features - have the stores handle the distribution. We all know opening to the 'store' is how their businesses work unfortunately.
 

qrac

Member
Nov 13, 2017
756
You have been able to link Steam account to GOG Galaxy 2.0 since closed beta started so..?
I've had trouble with the linking of my steam account. Unlinks, doesn't connect or just connects but doesn't show the games along with other drawbacks like one steam account per gog account. It isn't officially supported by Valve, so I'd imagine it would be of better quality with official Valve support.
 

Doomguy Fieri

Member
Nov 3, 2017
5,281
Between this and all the PS5 stuff, it's clear Tim Sweeney is having a Kanye style public meltdown. We need to get him off Twitter.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
Regardless of how you feel about Epic, he's right. Not sure why people are having a pseudo console war over storefronts when that's not at all the topic here.



Why does it matter if it's available on Steam when it's going F2P? It's not like they're taking away copies that have been paid for. The perceived negative effect here is negligible if it exists at all.
The issue is in practice Sweeney and EGS do not adhere to this belief of unified stores. They actively seek to keep games off other storefronts (read: Steam) and only recently started allowing very specific key resellers. This is counter-productive to the ethos of sharing your library across any store front due to the literal fact of not even having the title in the first place available on other storefronts. To actually be in line with his belief, then EGS would not have exclusives and in fact offer the same catalogue as others do.
 

yeahwrite

Member
Apr 17, 2020
169
This has been more of a problem for me with movies, and it's why I eventually went to just ripping things and putting them all in a Plex server. I was tired of trying to remember where I bought digital movies (I mostly buy stuff for my kids when I can find it on sale).

But games? Eh, I don't care. I can keep opening up all the different stores on my PC, it's not hard. I'd much rather have some kind of digital purchase that crossed platforms. I'd pay extra for an "All Digital" version of a game that was literally all consoles and PC. Buy it one time for a slightly higher price and you've got it on every console. Free to play games with universal accounts like Rocket League, Fortnite and Warframe are already there.

It would be great to get something like Borderlands 3 and just know I'd be able to play it with my brothers, who both have different systems.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
I share Mr Sweeney's goal but there is a commercial impact of this on individual stores.

When you pay a store for digital content, part of that money goes towards funding the ongoing storage and network infrastructure to allow me to download the content now and in the future - and these costs are not insignificant. Now if all my cross-platform Steam purchases are now valid for PlayStation 5 running backwards compatible PlayStation 4 games and I hit PSN to download 20 games and download 1.5Tb of games, Sony is paying for that with zero monetary recompense. I think the industry needs to solve this issue before the idea of universal content can get off the ground.

Disney figured it out for the movie industry.

First thing is you can't have cross platform ownership if games are not available on other platforms. What's the point of his words if Epic games are only available on Epic Store?

Second thing is that games are excluded from that EU regulation. You can resell your AutoCAD license but not game.

Being able to buy a game and being able to download a game you own are two separate things. Look at delisted games. Or look to Movies Anywhere for a comparable example.

Again, nothing proposed in the OP is against exclusive sales deals.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,237
I'd love to see Epic lead the charge with this.

They won't. They recently decided to take Rocket League from Steam and move it exclusively to the EGS.
It's their studio and IP, but this move is a contradiction to being able to download and enjoy a game from anywhere, independent of purchase "location".
Tim Sweeney is often a man of big talks and contradicting actions.