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Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,535
Houston, TX
SifuMightyCalbot.jpg
Chan Khee Hoon said:
In between bouts of Sifu's ferocious brawling, there's a scene I can't help but keep thinking about: a particular graffiti that was hastily drawn on a wall, presumably by a local drug dealer. It's a Chinese phrase that says "一手交钱, 一手交货" which, when loosely translated, means "give me the money and I'll give you the goods". But next to it is an inexplicable decision to also include an English translation of that very phrase, "No money no goods", as if the drug peddler has the foresight to consider entertaining English-speaking or international junkies who may just be dropping by the local illegal pharmacy to pick up some good ol' fashioned drugs. I mean, good thinking, buddy.

Make no mistake; such emblems and other icons of Chinese culture are merely an aesthetic in Sifu, used to pepper in a little flair, and to sprinkle a little bit of exoticism in this kungfu brawler. I can name a few examples of the game's egregious use of Chinese signifiers: take for instance the game's icon, a replica of a red stamp that is imprinted with a Chinese seal, which is inscribed with the Chinese characters 'sifu' (if you have, till now, no idea what 'sifu' means, it means 'teacher' or 'master'. Fun fact: 'sifu' can also be used to address cab drivers, skilled tradespeople, monks and priests). It's a pretty frivolous use of the stamp, given that these seals are typically etched with personal names rather than titles, and used as signatures to sign off personal or official documents. Then there are the game's menus, with UI design choices that are wildly inconsistent; some buttons and words are accompanied by a sometimes incorrectly translated Chinese phrase, and some without (the word 'loading' by the Chinese equivalent, but the word 'start' is not). Then there's the option for you to return to what the game refers to as your 'wuguan'—the training hall where you return to in between levels—which is odd because you can simply just say 'training hall' rather than 'wuguan'.
I feel like this is an important article to read with regards to the issues plaguing the game. The full article is linked in the source section below. I also heavily recommend reading Chan's previous article regarding Sifu's development staff being all white folks, as their article here feels like a follow-up to that.

Source: TheGamer
 
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Oct 26, 2017
13,630
Yeah honestly this is super gross. Just the OP quote alone shows that this was such a lazy attempt at being "Chinese" when it's clear they hardly did their homework. I first heard of this issue from a Chinese writer on twitter, but oh no the person apparently hates white people (as a white person, I don't blame him!), so CLEARLY that invalidates any critique over this, clearly!

Like I said, this is gross. I don't care if you wanted to make a Chinese game, you would've been smarter to recruit actual Chinese people to design and direct the game. You can oversee it as the "creator", but this just screams "Chinese by white people" if that makes sense.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,355
Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse
 

thankyoumerzbow

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2020
8,470
on my tl i saw a bunch of retweets from asian people that were definitely not happy with the game
 

super-famicom

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
25,279
Neoxon Thank you for posting this article. As an Asian American (but not Chinese American), when I first saw the trailer for this last year or so, I thought "Oh looks kinda neat, but is it gonna deal with the cultural issues alright or not?" Looks like it didn't :(
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,642
I've been following some of the discussion prerelease and a lot of it is things that could have easily been fixed by having a more diverse team but instead they miss easy hurdles. Like the written Chinese which should have been a top priority to ensure it was accurate for how prominent the text is in spots.

Instead it's a misguided work of wanting to pay homage to these inspirations but only managing the surface level. Especially in terms of story and how they're telling it, where nothing inherently makes use of the setting.
 
OP
OP
Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,535
Houston, TX
Neoxon Thank you for posting this article. As an Asian American (but not Chinese American), when I first saw the trailer for this last year or so, I thought "Oh looks kinda neat, but is it gonna deal with the cultural issues alright or not?" Looks like it didn't :(
Thanks for posting this
That was a good read, thanks for sharing it.
Not a problem, I'm always important to highlight these kinds of issues.

Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse
That's the vibe I got as well, one I can 100% relate to given how vocal I've been about Black representation in media (& especially games) over the last few years. It's also why I felt it was especially important to say the author's name in the title, as they should be given the credit they deserve.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,143
Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse

Seriously. The entire time Sifu has been getting marketed I've been watching it going "ummmmmm...."

This has been my worry with all of these games and movies and pieces of media that borrow aesthetics from Asian cultures without actually understanding the intricacies or the perspectives of those cultures themselves.

American media needs to do better than going "we have an Asian person consulting on our majority-white project that mines Asian culture for profit" and assuming that's enough to sidestep criticism. We need lead designers and directors of Asian descent. We need Asian writers and artists and composers. It doesn't matter if it's a Disney movie like Raya and the Last Dragon, or a Sony game like Ghost of Tsushima, or an indie game like Sifu - this shit keeps happening and it feels like the creative field isn't learning the necessary lessons despite the frequent recurrence of these problems.

We need to do better.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,861
Yeah, the red flags were up when it was revealed the dev team is primarily white. Knowing there are so many little cuts and jabs like this makes the idea of looking past them to enjoy what is done well still feel gross.

It makes it even more miraculous that Ghost of Tsushima, while not flawless, handled the subject matter with as much care as it did
 
An especially important paragraph from the article

super-famicom

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
25,279
I appreciate this paragraph from the article (bolded is by me):

But do all these conversations about race, culture, and appropriation truly matter? It may not, to some players, who just want to play a nifty game about an East Asian fighter punching the bejeezus out of other fighters, and to feel pretty darn good about themselves while doing it, like Jackie Chan from his portfolio of action movies. This is the stereotypical power fantasy that video games have long been peddling, and let's be clear here: I don't think this motivation is intrinsically wrong. I love a good, hearty game that would get my adrenaline pumping, and there are more than a dozen writers and content creators covering the game from this angle that you can look to for reviews. The problem, however, with only distilling Sifu purely down to its mechanics and systems, is that criticism from the cultural or socioeconomic perspective has long been overlooked, as if these are less important aspects of the game that don't deserve as much attention. It somehow implies that mechanics and gameplay are sacrosanct to games, as if that's all the medium is capable of—a point that we obviously know is not true.

It's 2022 now, and many games have absolutely gone beyond mechanics and have been capable of doing more than that.


Also, after reading this article, how was Sleeping Dogs received? It was released in 2012 but I can't recall if there was any criticism concerning the Hong Kong setting.
 

Dio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,097
thanks for posting this.
I appreciate this paragraph from the article (bolded is by me):



It's 2022 now, and many games have absolutely gone beyond mechanics and have been capable of doing more than that.


Also, after reading this article, how was Sleeping Dogs received? It was released in 2012 but I can't recall if there was any criticism concerning the Hong Kong setting.
excellent paragraph.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,265
The devs should have probably just made a more generic, inspired by setting and themes rather than do a hokey messy "authentic" take. You can do martial arts without the corny Asian set dressing though I guess that gets into a different set of issues.
 

Murlin

Member
Feb 12, 2019
1,053
I saw some criticism on Twitter from Chinese players, including sloppy mixing of Mandarin and Cantonese words/pronunciations together in ways that would never actually happen.
 

Adryuu

Master of the Wind
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,611
The devs should have probably just made a more generic, inspired by setting and themes rather than do a hokey messy "authentic" take. You can do martial arts without the corny Asian set dressing though I guess that gets into a different set of issues.

Exactly, that's why I usually prefer fantasy based games rather than realistic settings or even sci-fi if it's based on the real world.

If you are going to base your media in something actual, real, contemporary or historical, do your fucking homework. At least, try to be informed and not put mistakes, wrong shit or of course potentially offensive things for the culture you intend to depict. If you have no clue about an actual culture you are trying to portrait, either study it beforehand, contract assessment, or do a different thing ("inspired by" if you want, but not "set on", which still can of course also be plagued with stereotypes and shit if done wrong).
 

fadedbones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,594
I hope enough high profile criticism is levied at this game that the developers, and others who create games that end up using culture as a window dressing, can learn from it and do better.

The article points it out but there are definitely signs that care was put in some areas, but whether it was a case of a broken clock being right or not, it doesn't seem to be in the devs favor with the amount of things that overshadow the good.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,461
I like hard games and I like martial arts movies but I think this stuff would bother me so much that I wouldn't be able to enjoy this game.
 

Katmeister

Banned
May 1, 2021
2,434
Like I said, this is gross. I don't care if you wanted to make a Chinese game, you would've been smarter to recruit actual Chinese people to design and direct the game. You can oversee it as the "creator", but this just screams "Chinese by white people" if that makes sense.

I agree this is gross but it is entirely possible for someone to learn about another culture enough that they could do it justice in a piece of media. it just would take a lot of time, more time than the developers clearly were willing to commit. In which case hiring a Chinese person would have been the best decision they could make.

Though I must admit I wasn't a huge fan of Ghost of Tsushima being Japanese history as told by white boys.

More games depicting other cultures made by members of those cultures please.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,100
Everything that's come out about the game in regards to cultural representation has me feeling like the game just won't be for me, which sucks because I really dig the premise...
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,687
I appreciate this paragraph from the article (bolded is by me):



It's 2022 now, and many games have absolutely gone beyond mechanics and have been capable of doing more than that.

I would argue that's the most important paragraph. Because we have to circle back to the "Are video games art?" question and the unfortunate reality that so many of the people raging at Roger Ebert's ghost for treating video games as toys can't see video games as anything other than toys.

Sifu's honestly a good cast study in this. As a game it's definitely more toy-like, and on the surface that's fine - a mechanics-driven challenge game is valid for the same reason a blockbuster movie is valid. But that mentality rises all the way up through the developers: they wear their Jackie Chan love on their sleeves but it primarily expresses itself in how much focus they've built into the combat system. They do try to get some of the bigger details right - Khee acknowledges such - but they fuck up on the little ones, and they fuck up because at the end of the day the Chinese aesthetic is nothing more than exotic window dressing and the care into the details will only go so far.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,100
I appreciate this paragraph from the article (bolded is by me):



It's 2022 now, and many games have absolutely gone beyond mechanics and have been capable of doing more than that.


Also, after reading this article, how was Sleeping Dogs received? It was released in 2012 but I can't recall if there was any criticism concerning the Hong Kong setting.

People want games to be taken seriously, but in order for that to happen, serious criticism regarding issues beyond the "game" part has to happen...
 

Big Boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,909
I feel like in 2022, with how easy remote working is, it shouldn't be difficult to hire appropriately to ensure you get these things right.
 

Alderade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
189
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory Generalization; Dismissive Misrepresentation of Discussion
I really dislike this take.
Only chinese people can make a game/book/movie taking place in china ? Only europeans can make a game in europe or with castles ?
If there is one trace of racism or xenophobia in the game, i'm okay to put it in the trash forever but If people are offended for grammar errors, they are the problem.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,461
I feel like any white team that knew enough to attempt a good Chinese themed game would know enough to not attempt it without getting people from that culture on board. I lived in Taiwan for several years and have some fluency in Mandarin and I wouldn't attempt such a thing without teaming up with some Taiwanese developers.
 

Master_Funk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,607
Yeah, we see this all the time with Arabic graffiti in games set in the middle east, so not suprising this has happened here. I dont know how much they consulted someone, but if they did, that should have extended to all aspects of the game including the environmental storytelling. Or better yet, have someone who is chinese in the team who is in a decision making position.
 
Jul 1, 2020
6,713
I really dislike this take.
Only chinese people can make a game/book/movie taking place in china ? Only europeans can make a game in europe or with castles ?
If there is one trace of racism or xenophobia in the game, i'm okay to put it in the trash forever but If people are offended for grammar errors, they are the problem.
If a game or any other work is going to be drawing heavily from a culture that is not their own they should at least have some consultants on board to make sure that everything is being done in a way that is authentic and tasteful. I highly doubt Sifu is as tasteless as a game like the 1997 original Shadow Warrior but I think that there is merit in criticizing how your culture is being portrayed in a video game.
 

Dio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,097
I really dislike this take.
Only chinese people can make a game/book/movie taking place in china ? Only europeans can make a game in europe or with castles ?
If there is one trace of racism or xenophobia in the game, i'm okay to put it in the trash forever but If people are offended for grammar errors, they are the problem.
that's not even the point of the article tho. if anything, the author agrees that the idea that this general discussion always arriving at "can other cultures make something about another one" is boring.
It's talking about cultural appropriation, and how much of a failed effort Sifu can be in some regards, specially given they seemingly didn't consult anyone at all.
 

Grifter

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,581
That media kit they sent out is a loot crate packed with cringe.
 
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Cloud-Hidden

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,997
I see mentions of "mosntly white" or "primarily white" devs. Has it been confirmed that there were no Chinese devs or consultants working on this game, and if there were, have they weighed in on the critcisms?
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
This kind of stuff is so apparent and frustrating when your culture is portrayed like a caricature. Go and watch/experience media native to other regions and the difference is night and day compared to how they're portrayed in the West.

It's 2022. Media from across the globe is available to stream anytime in order to get a genuine look into other cultures, yet we are stuck with warped perspectives that that misrepresent entire groups of people.
 

Grath

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
463
I really dislike this take.
Only chinese people can make a game/book/movie taking place in china ? Only europeans can make a game in europe or with castles ?
If there is one trace of racism or xenophobia in the game, i'm okay to put it in the trash forever but If people are offended for grammar errors, they are the problem.

Those stupid Asian people, right, just getting offended for nothing...
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
34,430
It's embarrassing that the game failed to consult a Chinese person to get the Chinese wordings right, honestly. I'm sure the devs are well-meaning and all but (seemingly) not even consulting a single Chinese person on the basics? How is this still a thing in 2022...

If people are offended for grammar errors, they are the problem.
What?

First, no one is saying that nobody can explore themes outside of their own cultures.

But fuck, if there are Chinese grammar errors in your Chinese-set video game that uses Chinese culture as a backdrop, that's just sad. As a developer, if you're gonna be borrowing from a culture that isn't yours, the least you can do (beyond avoiding the obvious harmful stereotypes) is to get basic words and grammar right. I totally understand why the article author is annoyed. Who are you to tell them that they're the problem for their valid criticism?

I see mentions of "mosntly white" or "primarily white" devs. Has it been confirmed that there were no Chinese devs or consultants working on this game, and if there were, have they weighed in on the critcisms?
I think a concept artist is Asian, but I don't know beyond that.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Having not followed the game at all, my first reaction to it was that it looks like Absolver with Chinese aesthetics hamfistedly thrown in. I didn't expect that to literally be the entire game though! I really didn't expect this level of not giving a fuck from a big indie release in 2022.
 

Alderade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
189
If i'm wrong that's on me but I see a lot of threads about Sifu and cultural appropriation in the last 2 days.

And as a French, every game or movie set in my country for the last decade is a nightmare if i look about grammar or pronunciation.
Maybe the fact that Sifu is made in my country blind me but it's a small team, don't put them in the same room as a AAA studio.
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,363
Austria
I really dislike this take.
Only chinese people can make a game/book/movie taking place in china ? Only europeans can make a game in europe or with castles ?
If there is one trace of racism or xenophobia in the game, i'm okay to put it in the trash forever but If people are offended for grammar errors, they are the problem.
It's not a take.
 

Dracil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,439
For comparison to Sifu, here's the Taiwanese made game mentioned in the article.

 

Maxime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,994
If i'm wrong that's on me but I see a lot of threads about Sifu and cultural appropriation in the last 2 days.

And as a French, every game or movie set in my country for the last decade is a nightmare if i look about grammar or pronunciation.
Maybe the fact that Sifu is made in my country blind me but it's a small team, don't put them in the same room as a AAA studio.

Dinga Bakaba from Arkane Lyon said it best:



Ubi learn from their mistakes, Soclap from theirs, and I from mine, but if nobody criticizes, our medium doesn't move forward and we are condemned to do it again. In fact, I'm not shocked by the game's clumsiness, but by the extremely defensive reactions to criticism...
 

super-famicom

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
25,279
If i'm wrong that's on me but I see a lot of threads about Sifu and cultural appropriation in the last 2 days.

And as a French, every game or movie set in my country for the last decade is a nightmare if i look about grammar or pronunciation.
Maybe the fact that Sifu is made in my country blind me but it's a small team, don't put them in the same room as a AAA studio.

But there is cultural appropriation, it's not just a "grammar mistake"
It's also how we have, time and time again, arrived at the same tired, repetitive, lukewarm and trite conversations about whether white studios can make games inspired by other cultures. It's also how Chinese and religious paraphernalia have been reduced to plastic trinkets and novelty souvenirs, as seen in the creator kits sent to influencers and streamers by Sifu's developer Sloclap. If you haven't seen it yet, the creator kit contains artefacts like joss sticks, prayer beads, an art book that vaguely resembles an martial arts manual that's haphazardly titled "longevity" in Chinese for some reason, the five-coin tassel used in-game as a life meter that, in real life, is traditionally used as a good luck charm, a Chinese seal and a teapot, I guess, for drinking tea—all of which is remarkably insulting because it appropriates these cultural objects and bludgeons them into marketing tools to be used by the studio.

This could easily have been avoided. And whether it's a small dev team or a large AAA studio, I think everyone can strive to do better regarding representation of people of different genders, cultures, and creeds.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,699
I always thought it was weird that this game received so much media and partner backing knowing that it was a studio of mostly white people trying to make a game with a meaningful Chinese oriented tone. More often than not, it's a recipe for disaster, but everyone bought in.

But here we are.

For comparison to Sifu, here's the Taiwanese made game mentioned in the article.


This looks kind a sick.