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Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,308
Yes, that would be perfect, that's exactly it (I've never played DX, so I couldn't use that analogy). But while i get the choice to influence the world by my dialog choices, give me a choice to influence the world using just my simple interactions with it. Let me approach quests with different approaches, or out of sequence in order. It would work so perfectly with the style of game TW3 is.
If that's the case then I can certainly agree! Deus Ex and NV have some truly next-level quest design in this respect. I can also see why you would cite the Witcher, in particular. Geralt has so many tools at his disposal, at least as many as the protagonist of every Deus Ex game and certainly more than the protagonist of NV. The linear ways he's required to tackle most of his quests while having all these options (talking things out, sleuthing, combat, magic both offensive and manipulative) makes the game's options feel weirdly claustrophobic at times.

If I'm getting you right based on your expansions throughout the thread, it seems like you're asking for more natural and diverse ways to tackle any given problem and I have to agree this would be a perfect fit for the Witcher and an easy way to make even simple quests more engaging specifically from a gameplay perspective. This is especially true for a game that's already sacrificed a degree of linear cinematic nature by going open-world, since it already emphasizes exploration and freedom. Why can't Geralt Axii that random mook guarding a door to get by bloodlessly? Why can't he sneak up on that villain to get a surprise attack in?

You should also play the Deus Ex series at some point. It's exactly what you're asking for, I think you'd love it. If you can stomach old graphics, classic Deus Ex is a treat, although I also really enjoyed the newer games.
 

Camonna Tong

Member
Mar 2, 2018
1,449
I completely agree. CDPR has great writing, there's no doubt about it, but the design itself isn't so great in many instances. A lot of the time, that writing covers up how bad (well, not that bad) the design can be. If there's any company that has great quest design it is Obsidian. Quest design in Fallout New Vegas is easily some of the best I have seen.

That's not to say all of the quest design isn't great, but there's quite a bit that isn't great if you ask me.
 

Gwynbleidd17

Member
Oct 28, 2017
289
How is this different to current forum darling God of War? The quests you collect from those spirits are the definition of open world filler (go to these places on the lake you've already been to and collect 3 bones/kill some enemies and then come back. The only thing interesting about these is how they're contextualised.

Even the blacksmith side quests, which are easily the most interesting, are just variations of going somewhere and fighting enemies you've already fought before but you're looking for a ring or a person or a vault.

Fact is that when you reduce most side quests to their core components they sound basic and uninteresting. Side quests in most games can be boiled down to going to an area, fighting enemies and returning. It's the manner in which they are contextualised which usually determines how interesting they are. There are some notable exceptions like Fallout New Vegas or Deus Ex (or immersive sims in general) but you're basically just complaining about 95% of side quests.

It'd be great if their next game featured quest design more like an immersive sim but they've hardly been setting the charts on fire in the past few years.
Yeah God of War is great but reductive analysis can tear it apart to having some of the most limited mechanics I've seen in a modern game which is critically acclaimed at the same time.
 

squidyj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,670
User warned: needlessly hostile
I think this is getting priorities wrong. Gameplay should never be compromised for storytelling. CDPR's contextualization for quests in The Witcher 3 is second to none, really, but the gameplay is trite, and a clear area of improvement in a future game. That's what we should be asking for.
God of War is a recent game that managed to get side content well, as well as fantastic contextualization for most of it, as an example.

Fuck you don't tell me what i should be asking for.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 249

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Oct 25, 2017
28,828
If that's the case then I can certainly agree! Deus Ex and NV have some truly next-level quest design in this respect. I can also see why you would cite the Witcher, in particular. Geralt has so many tools at his disposal, at least as many as the protagonist of every Deus Ex game and certainly more than the protagonist of NV. The linear ways he's required to tackle most of his quests while having all these options (talking things out, sleuthing, combat, magic both offensive and manipulative) makes the game's options feel weirdly claustrophobic at times.

If I'm getting you right based on your expansions throughout the thread, it seems like you're asking for more natural and diverse ways to tackle any given problem and I have to agree this would be a perfect fit for the Witcher and an easy way to make even simple quests more engaging specifically from a gameplay perspective. This is especially true for a game that's already sacrificed a degree of linear cinematic nature by going open-world, since it already emphasizes exploration and freedom. Why can't Geralt Axii that random mook guarding a door to get by bloodlessly? Why can't he sneak up on that villain to get a surprise attack in?

You should also play the Deus Ex series at some point. It's exactly what you're asking for, I think you'd love it. If you can stomach old graphics, classic Deus Ex is a treat, although I also really enjoyed the newer games.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel! I think that kind of free form power fantasy is something Souls games and BotW thrive at (despite not being open world and actually having pretty bad quests respectively). I want to see something like that married to CDPR's contextualization is all.
Deus Ex is something I've had on my radar for the longest time, it's just something I haven't gotten around to yet (in spite of having 1, 3, and 4). I really should get on it...
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 249

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Oct 25, 2017
28,828
"getting priorities wrong"
"thats what we should be asking for"

In response to someone elses comment. You sure have a funny way of speaking for yourself.
Sorry that for this one specific post I forgot to add "in my opinion" or "for my preference" like I have otherwise been doing for literally every other post in this thread, I guess.
 

squidyj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,670
Sorry that for this one specific post I forgot to add "in my opinion" or "for my preference" like I have otherwise been doing for literally every other post in this thread, I guess.

maybe don't represent that there's one correct way to make or interact with games and you won't have that kind of problem.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 249

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Oct 25, 2017
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maybe don't represent that there's one correct way to make or interact with games and you won't have that kind of problem.
As I said, I've made clear through the thread that literally every single time I've said something like that, it's been in respect to my specific preferences and nothing else.
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,171
Belgium
Sorry that for this one specific post I forgot to add "in my opinion" or "for my preference" like I have otherwise been doing for literally every other post in this thread, I guess.

Other acceptable alternatives: 'as far as I am concerned', 'from where I stand' and my favourite 'in my humble opinion'.

For conversations with certain people I even recommend using a combination of the aforementioned phrases, to fully convey that this is your personal opinion and that you have the ultimate respect for the opposing argument.

e.g. In my humble opinion you're a salty cunt as far as I am concerned, from my point of view.
 

Deleted member 39587

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Feb 6, 2018
2,676
It's not about the contextualization of the mechanic. It's what you actually do with the mechanic in a gameplay sense. Which is straight up boring.

The biggest thing games have over other media is the interactivity. Sacrificing that for whatever else is not good game design.
that's just wrong. don't try to start a debate over what is and what is not a video game. prioritising the narrative is not bad design. A game is what is made to be a game.

aha. quality post right there.

As I said, I've made clear through the thread that literally every single time I've said something like that, it's been in respect to my specific preferences and nothing else.
lol obviously not.

Whatever, I am out of this thread before I get hostile (OP and I will apparently never agree, no need for discussion here).
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,261
The actual quest structures can certainly improve and and I think this is a think CDPR should work on, but...

...most games handle questing at best about as well and on average much, much worst. The truth is that barring games like FO:NV, DEs, etc most sidequests in most games are not all that interestingly put together.

The reason CDPR's efforts are--rightfully--put on a pedestal is because of the contextualization that goes into these. In most other games--especially the modern open world ones--you can clearly tell most side content exist just to exist and are often hewn from the same 6 - 7 templates. In W3, there is a tremendous amount of hand crafted effort that goes into 70 - 80% of all quests that it is still pretty staggering.

Even more impressive is how so many of them link together and naturally feed of the main story.

Seems to me like the OP's desire is to have questing in W3 work more like an immersive sim. I mean, I would prefer that too as I LOVE those games, but the approach taken is not inferior, just one that places more importance of narrative not gameplay complexity.
 
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leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,119
The biggest issue with Witcher Sense is that the way it was integrated into the game was extremely ugly, buggy and unfun in general. A lot of the clues were right there in front of you but the game wouldn't even let you interact with them until you used Witcher Sense to highlight it.
 

Deleted member 23908

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
773
I understand where you're coming from op pretty much every single video game is repetitive if you think about things like that. Also I liked witcher senses because it made it seem like you can see things other people cant, which is exactly what makes a witcher different than normal people. And if you dont like quest markers, you can just turn them off.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Besides the Baron sidequest, the side quest in TW3 were not that special to be honest. Therefore I am really looking forward to their next project.

The Bloody Baron arc is also not a side quest. It's a main questline you have to do in order to progress the game. The conclusion of the story arc however (where you confront the witches with the baron and the witch hunters) is entirely optional and is a side quest.

A lot of people mistakenly refer to it as a side quest for some reason and then cite it as an example of how to do side quests, when the amount of effort put into it is due to the fact that it is not actually side content, but essential content intended for the player to experience.

It was good though.
 

Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,691
Yup. I absolutely loved Witcher 3 but way too much of the game plays like "get quest, use your sense to follow trail, find object/monster, go back to quest giver".
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,284
The biggest issue with Witcher Sense is that the way it was integrated into the game was extremely ugly, buggy and unfun in general. A lot of the clues were right there in front of you but the game wouldn't even let you interact with them until you used Witcher Sense to highlight it.
i'm not sure that was unintentional; it seems like they always wanted you to use it as soon as you step in the orange circle. either way, I agree- it kind of takes you out of it, even if the clues are pretty neat conceptually and his comments about them are well written/acted. You just get this giant glowing red shit everywhere and it's really distracting. I wish they promoted looking for clues manually a little better, with witcher sense being used as a last resort, or for only scents.
 
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Kumomeme

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
668
Malaysia
Agreed.

Most of the quest structure pretty same.Too rely on witcher sense and follow the trail.Luckly the quest storyline save the quest structure but the quest still somehow playable even if player just skip the dialogue.I too done this many time.Only need to follow trail with witcher sense and follow direction given by quest marker,thats all.Sometimes i just skip all those unnecessary cutscene because it kind of tired me up.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,062
If it had relied on Witcher sense a lot less, I feel like Witcher 3 could've been the perfect open-world detective game.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
They need to look to Divinity: OS2 imo for how to do quest design via giving you many "options" on how you tackle a quest.

Instead of simply having you go to "x" spot and use witcher senses, you could talk to a character who knows something, or find another route and clue to take you a different direction, etc.
 

BashNasty

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
I don't understand this line of thinking, story and contextualising is what makes a good game great.

Nope, great gameplay is what makes a game great.

I've always been befuddled by the immense amount of praise that Witcher 3 gets because it bungles the only thing that matters in a game, great gameplay.

Obviously people strongly disagree, but man, Witcher 3 is not a great game.
 

The Shape

Member
Nov 7, 2017
5,027
Brazil
Witcher sense, detective vision, all these powers are a plague in the industry. I can't say how many times I rolled my eyes in Horizon Zero Dawn when Aloy had to use that detective vision, or whatever that variation is called, to follow some trail across the map by the hundredth time in a side quest.

Great games are plagued by this and it definitely needs to go or be used in really small and sparse doses.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,393
Oh I agree that CDPR created a world in which the hate most people had for witchers was believable.

But the Witcher Sense mechanic definitely makes the actual conduct of witchering seem pretty trivial
Being a witcher is not all it's cracked up to be.


Witcher sense makes sense as a mechanic in the context of the series. Geralt's been doing this stuff for more than half a decade. So it should be easy for him to track and find things. As an example, people can't track scents back to their explicit source unless they're in close proximity, witchers can track sense for miles, that's reflected in the witcher 3 via witcher sense.
 
OP
OP

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Oct 25, 2017
28,828
Being a witcher is not all it's cracked up to be.


Witcher sense makes sense as a mechanic in the context of the series. Geralt's been doing this stuff for more than half a decade. So it should be easy for him to track and find things. As an example, people can't track sense back to their explicit source unless they're in close proximity, witchers can.

I don't care how it is contextualized, it's getting in the way of actual good game design, and is in fact acting as a crutch in replacement for good game design.
Geralt being an expert Witcher could easily have been conveyed in some way that didn't break down interactions with the world to a rote "Press trigger, see shiny thing, press the action button" loop.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
Agree totally, although i also have some problems with some of the choices in this game, in some quests it seems that the only options were to use the sign that control minds, gib monies or kill the person, felt like i was playing a bethesda game for some moments out there.
 
OP
OP

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Oct 25, 2017
28,828
The bigger problems than the quest design. Having good/functional combat should be numero uno on the list.
I feel like a lot of hate for The Witcher 3's combat is a bit overblown. It's definitely mediocre, but it's not like it's "not functional". It's functional, it's just... inane at best, and actively unpleasant at worst.
 

hijukal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
234
If you're going to distill gameplay down to that level, then every game sounds pretty dull.

Yes the Witcher Sense was used a lot, but for most quests, especially those involving tracking or finding things, the tracks etc you followed were rendered in the game world and didn't even need Witcher Sense to see them if you looked carefully. Witcher Sense is, in a sense, easy mode - it's a crutch you can use to make the quests easier and quicker. Not saying it's bad, but you don't have to use it.

Personally, my biggest problem is that without the map/mini-map, most quests are extremely difficult as the design relies totally on them. Hide the HUD and try a few quests - you're constantly pulling out the main map because no NPCs actually provide wayfinding information.

It's functional, it's just... inane at best, and actively unpleasant at worst.
I did a second playthrough a while back using a Steam Controller with each sign mapped to a region on the touchpad, where you could tap to instantly switch to a sign and cast it. It made the combat way more enjoyable as there was a heap of variety instantly accessible rather than having to constantly switch.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,818
Actually Witcher Sense, as implemented in TW3, makes little sense.

In the context of the game's universe it is always on; it isn't something they can turn off. It's like saying you can turn your sense of smell or sight on or off.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,261
That sort of game design IS good game design in the way the witcher uses it.

Witcher sense is decently implemented, the issue is how often quests use it. It becomes too routine and begs the player to question its existence.

If anything this is where I would say CDPR cut corners. They put the work into the dialogue, story and characters for each quest, but often skimped out on quite how the player got from point A to point B. Witcher sense often did that.

I see the challenge too. Often they wanted the player to take a specific path to an objective and needed a way to enforce that.

Really 1/3 less use of the mechanic would have gone a long way to improve that aspect of the game. Even if that flat out meant 1/3 less quests.
 
OP
OP

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You can't discuss it without discussing the context of the game it was put in because it was designed for that very context in the first place.
And I am saying that context doesn't excuse the bad game design that is the over reliance on the Witcher Sense. Ergo, no matter how good the contextualization for its current implementation in game may be, it doesn't deflect from the fact that the Witcher Sense is used as a crutch in place of actual meaningful design most of the times.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,393
Witcher sense is decently implemented, the issue is how often quests use it. It becomes too routine and begs the player to question its existence.

If anything this is where I would say CDPR cut corners. They put the work into the dialogue, story and characters for each quest, but often skimped out on quite how the player got from point A to point B.

Really 1/3 less use of the mechanic would have gone a long way to improve that aspect of the game. Even if that flat out meant 1/3 less quests.
I wouldn't enjoy the Witcher 3 with 1/3rd of the quest. Whenever i played that game I got so immersed that it didn't bother me. I enjoy the core gameplay loop of investigations very much.

And I am saying that context doesn't excuse the bad game design that is the over reliance on the Witcher Sense. Ergo, no matter how good the contextualization for its current implementation in game may be, it doesn't deflect from the fact that the Witcher Sense is used as a crutch in place of actual meaningful design most of the times.
But it's not objectively bad game design, it makes sense for the game, it helps the game. A version of the witcher 3 where you spent time pixel hunting would be way less fun. You're saying it's not meaningful, but that's entirely up to the player to decide, I find it meaningful because it in combination with the world of the game itself and overall presentation makes for a very immersive experience compared to similar implementations in other games.
 
OP
OP

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But it's not objectively bad game design, it makes sense for the game, it helps the game. A version of the witcher 3 where you spent time pixel hunting would be way less fun.
A better version would be no Witcher sense, and Geralt's superhuman capabilities abstracted via a better integrated and meaningful mechanic in game. "Y is better than X, where X is literally the worst possible thing" is not a compelling explanation for why Y isn't bad.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,261
I wouldn't enjoy the Witcher 3 with 1/3rd of the quest. Whenever i played that game I got so immersed that it didn't bother me. I enjoy the core gameplay loop of investigations very much.


But it's not objectively bad game design, it makes sense for the game, it helps the game. A version of the witcher 3 where you spent time pixel hunting would be way less fun.

1/3 less. So 2/3 of the quests it has now.

And I would agree with you. I love the world enough that I overlook what I perceive to be the overuse of the mechanic.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,393
A better version would be no Witcher sense, and Geralt's superhuman capabilities abstracted via a better integrated and meaningful mechanic in game. "Y is better than X, where X is literally the worst possible thing" is not a compelling explanation for why Y isn't bad.
Yea again, that's not really up for you to decide. My least favorite thing about threads like this is how abstractly game mechanics are talked about as if they exist in a vacuum without any context whatsoever. You don't simplify and boil down game mechanics without including the context of how they fit the rest of the game.

1/3 less. So 2/3 of the quests it has now.

And I would agree with you. I love the world enough that I overlook what I perceive to be the overuse of the mechanic.
Geralt as a character finds his work just as tiring and I feel like that's the point.
 
OP
OP

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Yea again, that's not really up for you to decide. My least favorite thing about threads like this is how abstractly game mechanics are talked about as if they exist in a vacuum without any context whatsoever.
I'm not saying that it's for me to decide anything, as you may note, I have left suggestions for better ways to implement the same contextualization pretty open. But when the over use of Witcher Sense appears to be a generally agreed upon issue, we can all agree that it is a weakness the game can stand to address.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,393
I'm not saying that it's for me to decide anything, as you may note, I have left suggestions for better ways to implement the same contextualization pretty open. But when the over use of Witcher Sense appears to be a generally agreed upon issue, we can all agree that it is a weakness the game can stand to address.
That's the thing is that no one really has a replacement that would fit the context and design of The Witcher better. You don't remove a mechanic like this, you'd have to change the entire quest structure, and that would likely be to the detriment of the game itself.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 249

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That's the thing is that no one really has a replacement that would fit the context and design of The Witcher better. You don't remove a mechanic like this, you'd have to change the entire quest structure, and that would likely be to the detriment of the game itself.
I agee
I disagree

You give CDPR too little credit. They're talented folks, they're capable of coming up with something much better.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,818
Yea again, that's not really up for you to decide. My least favorite thing about threads like this is how abstractly game mechanics are talked about as if they exist in a vacuum without any context whatsoever. You don't simplify and boil down game mechanics without including the context of how they fit the rest of the game.


Geralt as a character finds his work just as tiring and I feel like that's the point.

Look your sentiment for TW3 is clear. I get that.

I think what Phantom is saying is this: of the many ways in which CDPR could have contexually implemented Witcher Sense in TW3, they choose the quickest and dirtiest route.

This implementation will affect others differently (you dont mind, Phantom finds it rote) but at the end of the day even you have to admit that it could have been implemented better.

As I said in a previous post, Witcher Sense as seen in TW3 makes no sense. You shouldnt even be able to turn it off and on. That is how Witchers see naturally.
 

Riderz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
I've always said/thought this but always seem to get attacked so just keep it inside.

Never really got the hype with Witchers side quests. Way too much use of the detective mode and the fact that they almost all end in a fight when the combat is the worst in any open world game I've played doesn't help.
 

Ales34

Member
Apr 15, 2018
6,455
Look your sentiment for TW3 is clear. I get that.

I think what Phantom is saying is this: of the many ways in which CDPR could have contexually implemented Witcher Sense in TW3, they choose the quickest and dirtiest route.
The laziest route. The Witcher Sense is an example of hand-holding at its worst, and it's completely overused. I can understand people not minding it, but I don't understand people who think it's a good gameplay choice by CDPR.
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,685
the important part is whether you care about the quests

witcher 3's sidequests were a huge step back from the earlier games because you knew they were irrelevant

it was better in previous games because the main quests and side quests were all part of the same storyline
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,393
I agee
I disagree

You give CDPR too little credit. They're talented folks, they're capable of coming up with something much better.
Well we'all see how they handle a completely different IP.
Look your sentiment for TW3 is clear. I get that.

I think what Phantom is saying is this: of the many ways in which CDPR could have contexually implemented Witcher Sense in TW3, they choose the quickest and dirtiest route.

This implementation will affect others differently (you dont mind, Phantom finds it rote) but at the end of the day even you have to admit that it could have been implemented better.

As I said in a previous post, Witcher Sense as seen in TW3 makes no sense. You shouldnt even be able to turn it off and on. That is how Witchers see naturally.
I would call it quick or dirty. It's a streamlined mechanic that avoids tedium and works to immerse the player. It makes sense as a mechanic and brief way of explaining why Geralt sees certain things when looking for them. Or better yet hears monsters from incredibly far distances away.
 

R.T Straker

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
Yup! That's what I am saying, these folks are so crazy talented, I don't see why they can't do even better with the next one.

They already did.

They're called Hearts of Stone and Blood & Wine. They're the best in their league, including quest design and are much better then the base game in every way possible.

CDPR can only go up from their previous work.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,736
Hold left trigger, run around in a circle, follow a trail. Not very fun. Thank god the rest of the game is Grade A.