Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
36,901
The word "credibility" is being thrown around the same way that "objectivity" is normally thrown around when it comes to others' opinions, specifically those of people who make a living reviewing games. Just be straight-up and say you think your tastes matter more than the people who submit the category nominees.
 

nDesh

The Three Eyed Raven
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,304
I've seen weirder picks from the DICE & BAFTA awards than from the TGA to be honest.
 

BlueStarEXSF

Member
Dec 3, 2018
4,980
I've seen weirder picks from the DICE & BAFTA awards than from the TGA to be honest.
DICE & BAFTA have a similar problem to the TGA in the sense that devs can't play every out there so mainstream games will find their way to the top. In fact, while devs are better positioned to assess the quality of a game, critics probably play more games in a year than devs so the critics probably have better coverage of games.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,536
The problem is that TGAs have become positioned as the definitive award in the industry, but unlike other industries (i.e., the Oscars) they aren't voted on by the industry itself.

It'd be near impossible to do that since from just reading various interviews it doesn't seem like developers get to play too many games a year. So if people are complaining the list of games that critics play not being enough, then they'd really be pissed about a list that developers came up with.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,617
What is that middle ground? Cause you do realize how many games there are, right? And what games do they decide over others?

That is a very simple question to answer: The middle ground is expanding the voting block beyond just mainstream outlets that consistently vote for the most popular thing so that you get a more balanced nomination procedure and a more accurate picture of the games industry.
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
That is a very simple question to answer: The middle ground is expanding the voting block beyond just mainstream outlets that consistently vote for the most popular thing so that you get a more balanced nomination procedure and a more accurate picture of the games industry.
There's >100 outlets who vote, right? How many do you think there should be? Are there well over 100 outlets worldwide that are worth including?
 

MattB

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,266
She is completely right. When it comes down to who pays attention to the game awards it's a popularity contest. It's pretty clear when you listen to podcasts from all different outlets.
 

Neverx

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Sep 17, 2020
3,241
Florida
I agree but I've seen BAFTA and DICE make some actually awful picks and snubs the past few years so I cannot say those award shows are more prestige.
 

IMCaprica

Member
Aug 1, 2019
10,258
The only issue here is that gamers read/hear "The Game Awards" as "THE Game Awards" and assign a level of expectation and importance that it won't ever live up to. Awards are inconsistent. That's just how it always will be. And every complaint about popularity, marketing, etc. already has a counterpoint in the form of nominees that don't fit what people are complaining about.
 

Zebesian-X

Member
Dec 3, 2018
22,155
That is a very simple question to answer: The middle ground is expanding the voting block beyond just mainstream outlets that consistently vote for the most popular thing so that you get a more balanced nomination procedure and a more accurate picture of the games industry.
But they aren't LITERALLY voting for the most popular game. They're voting for the game they think deserves each award. The popularity factor comes in before the vote. If only a few outlets within the voting body have played a certain game, it's not gonna get nominated. It's an unfortunate byproduct of this format. The Oscars run into the same issue, many academy voters won't bother watching every nominated film in a category before voting for a winner.

But with games it's harder to blame the voting body, because you've often gotta sink dozens of hours into a game to wrap your head around it. Demanding the voters play everything before submitting their voting is unreasonable. And expanding the voting block wouldn't solve the issue either. You're just adding more people that haven't had time to play every notable 2023 release into the pool
 
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SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,536
Well, well over. The number can stay the same, the makeup of the block is the important part.

But why do you think that throwing out a wider net is going to result in more variety. These are the Top 3 most awarded games along with how many awards were handed out that year across various outlets

2013 (542)
1.) The Last of Us
2.) Grand Theft Auto V
3.) Bioshock Infinite

2014 (436)
1.) Dragon-Age: Inquisition
2.) Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor
3.) Mario Kart 8

2015 (479)
1.) The Witcher 3
2.) Fallout 4
3.) Bloodborne

2016 (477)
1.) Uncharted 4
2.) Overwatch
3.) DOOM

2017 (436)
1.) Zelda: Breath of the World
2.) Horizon Zero Dawn
3.) Super Mario Galaxy

2018 (518)
1.) God of War
2.) Red Dead Redemption 2
3.) Spider-Man

2019 (469)
1.) Death Stranding
2.) Resident Evil 2
3.) Sekiro

2020 (648)
1.) The Last of Us Part II
2.) Hades
3.) Ghost of Tsushima

2021 (442)
1.) It Takes Two
2.) Resident Evil Village
3.) Forza Horizon 5

2022 (596)
1.) Elden Ring
2.) God of War Ragnarok
3.) Immortality

The consensus of what the best games are each year isn't nearly as wide as some here seem to think it's. It's pretty damn narrow even when you take into account hundreds of different outlets. And in every single case here The Game Awards either had the same overall GotY each year as these or one from the Top 3.
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,508
Seattle
The consensus of what the best games are each year isn't nearly as wide as some here seem to think it's. It's pretty damn narrow even when you take into account hundreds of different outlets. And in every single case here The Game Awards either had the same overall GotY each year as these or one from the Top 3.
The fact that none of the biggest and best games from the largest gaming market on earth even get nominated is directly tied to the limited pool of outlets that are put on the jury.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
18,178
I'm okay with it being that, I just feel like people pretend it isn't a lot of the time.

We ask for innovation and newness.
Despite it mostly being the same genres, same studios, same IP that get nominated and we pretend it's just those games pushing the medium forward. Or certain IP are prestige enough to be expected to get nominated. And then every so often, you get something fresh that's able to break through.

It'd just be nice if gamers in general were more honest about what they say they want.
 

weblaus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,002
Smaller games like Disco Elysium or House in Fata Morgana that are beloved by both the critics and audience that played them are never going to win or even be nominated.

I don't think especially House of Fata Morgana is in any way a good example for implying it would have a chance to win if only more people knew about it. In my opinion it is beloved by a very small niche of both critics and audience - and while both may agree on its greatness, the moment you put a game like that before less specialized groupe of people, you'd certainly get a much less enthusiatic response.

Similar example for this year (based on Western release date, of course) would be Jack Jeanne, which I personally absolutely love, but still would in no way consider it GOTY material.
 

CenaToon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,952
TGA with time has become "the GOTY award" for a lot of people (mostly people that dont follow gaming news and outlets), like if a game wins TGA, people will think it's over and that game is the best game of the year by default, not considering like Alanah said, that there's other 200 media outlets that do their own GOTY.

That's why i love the work people do here making the yearly "goty award compilation" and you see how many awards in total each game gets.
 

Voodoopeople

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,072
The issue is that a smaller proportion gaming outlet staff even own and play Xbox games. It's not mandatory to play all possible noms to have a vote.

Yes,there a small number of properly dodgy sites but unconscious bias is a thing.

So the more popular platform has more journos playing their games. Not a conspiracy but it is real.

Don't even get me started on solo YouTubers, that survive by controversy, who should be nowhere near any panels.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,001
I don't care about awards. I either like something or not. Only reason I've watched in the past was due to announcements.
 

zoodoo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,578
Montreal
I just watch it for the trailers. Dont care about the awards. And the usual funny parts like when Josef Fares takes the stage
 

The Bear

Forest Animal
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,291
All awards shows are popularity contests to some degree. And that's fine!

Does game sales matter? Yes of course. Does review scores? Definitely! What about the mainstream status of a game? Yes!

Even if you compare games to movies, it's much more difficult for more obscure games to get enough attention to be nominated. In stuff like Bafta film awards the people deciding the nominations may say even over a hundred movies over the course of a few weeks or months. A movie is generally a 90—180 minute investment.

In comparison, one game takes generally 10-100 hours, especially if you play them until the end. It is simply not possibly for reviewers to play every game released this year, not even all of the games that might deserve awards.

So then, the game's mainstream status does matter in terms of what gets nominated. Because not every outlet is able to play everything. Did Case of the Golden Idol deserve a nomination? Perhaps, but it was never going to get it. That said, saying only sales and mainstream status matters is too reductive. They matter a big deal, but they aren't the only thing. Call of Duty MW3 was never going to be an awards darling for a reason.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
8,305
Based on their artistic merit regardless of marketing budget. Since the voting block is comprised of game critics of some repute, I expect nominations that go beyond basic popularity. Alanah is basically saying that an excellent game like Dredge would not have a shot at being nominated because the people voting will immediately go for the more famous games. You don't see any issue with that?

It's no different than the oscars. AAA games have higher visibility because they have marketing power behind it so more critics have likely played it. Also it is also a possibilty as with most indie games, that even among critics who have played both, they prefer the mainstream games for whatever reason, polish, story, gameplay or whatever reasoning they may have.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Every award show at the end of the day has judges picking only a few games out of thousands. They probably have not played most of it. Even if Dredge gets picked it is probably at the cost of thousands of games that did not have the marketing reach of something like Dredge
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
18,178
It's no different than the oscars. AAA games have higher visibility because they have marketing power behind it so more critics have likely played it. Also it is also a possibilty as with most indie games, that even among critics who have played both, they prefer the mainstream games for whatever reason, polish, story, gameplay or whatever reasoning they may have.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Every award show at the end of the day has judges picking only a few games out of thousands. They probably have not played most of it. Even if Dredge gets picked it is probably at the cost of thousands of games that did not have the marketing reach of something like Dredge
At least half the movies that end up getting nominated aren't moves you watched get marketed for 6+ months. With a winner that could've easily not make money. Made by a director you hadn't even heard before.

TGAs would have to catch up to the Oscars in this regard for you to say it's no different.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
8,305
I don't know if that's completely true. You are partly correct in that I strongly dislike the Oscars too but I wouldn't go as far as saying that I have an issue with award shows in general. The way Alanah described the process of the BAFTAs, that seems like a much more comprehensive and involved process that takes both the medium and the nomination process more seriously.

Nothing about BAFTA is more serious or prestigious. BAFTA has literally the same games always nominated like TGA with a bit of UK bias thrown in there.
 

Odinsmana

Member
Mar 13, 2019
3,020
I don't think especially House of Fata Morgana is in any way a good example for implying it would have a chance to win if only more people knew about it. In my opinion it is beloved by a very small niche of both critics and audience - and while both may agree on its greatness, the moment you put a game like that before less specialized groupe of people, you'd certainly get a much less enthusiatic response.

Similar example for this year (based on Western release date, of course) would be Jack Jeanne, which I personally absolutely love, but still would in no way consider it GOTY material.
I haven't actually played Fata Morgana yet. I mentioned it because I hear so much love from it and the reviews were amazing, but it might be a bad example as you say.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
8,305
At least half the movies that end up getting nominated aren't moves you watched get marketed for 6+ months. With a winner that could've easily not make money. Made by a director you hadn't even heard before.

TGAs would have to catch up to the Oscars in this regard for you to say it's no different.

That's because the mainstream movies are not critically acclaimed as mainstream games. You can bet they will get nominated when they are. I am fairly confident both oppenheimer and Barbie are going to be nominated. Also the only way to get your film nominated in the Oscars is for production houses to market the hell out of the film to the Oscar jury so yeah they production houses do need to market and shell out the money for recognition
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,617
But they aren't LITERALLY voting for the most popular game. They're voting for the game they think deserves each award. The popularity factor comes in before the vote. If only a few outlets within the voting body have played a certain game, it's not gonna get nominated. It's an unfortunate byproduct of this format. The Oscars run into the same issue, many academy voters won't bother watching every nominated film in a category before voting for a winner.

But with games it's harder to blame the voting body, because you've often gotta sink dozens of hours into a game to wrap your head around it. Demanding the voters play everything before submitting their voting is unreasonable. And expanding the voting block wouldn't solve the issue either. You're just adding more people that haven't had time to play every notable 2023 release into the pool

I don't blame the voting body, I want a different composition. If you have outlets on there that only have time to play the 15 biggest games of the year, why not add a few outlets that only do indie games to balance them out?

The consensus of what the best games are each year isn't nearly as wide as some here seem to think it's. It's pretty damn narrow even when you take into account hundreds of different outlets. And in every single case here The Game Awards either had the same overall GotY each year as these or one from the Top 3.

I have to disagree. Gaming is not that narrow and there are hundreds of worthwhile games that fly under the radar each year.

It's no different than the oscars. AAA games have higher visibility because they have marketing power behind it so more critics have likely played it. Also it is also a possibilty as with most indie games, that even among critics who have played both, they prefer the mainstream games for whatever reason, polish, story, gameplay or whatever reasoning they may have.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Every award show at the end of the day has judges picking only a few games out of thousands. They probably have not played most of it. Even if Dredge gets picked it is probably at the cost of thousands of games that did not have the marketing reach of something like Dredge

I don't disagree with the Oscars comparison, which is exactly why I strongly dislike the Oscars.
 

Krazie

Member
Jun 6, 2022
908
Winners from 2014 to now

TGA

Dragon Age: Inquisition
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
Overwatch
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
God of War
Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
The Last of Us Part II
It Takes Two
Elden Ring

D.I.C.E. Awards

Dragon Age: Inquisition
Fallout 4
Overwatch
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
God of War
Untitled Goose Game
Hades
It Takes Two
Elden Ring

Game Developers Choice Awards

Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
Overwatch
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
God of War
Untitled Goose Game
Hades
Inscryption
Elden Ring

BAFTA Games Awards

Destiny
Fallout 4
Uncharted 4: A Thief's End
What Remains of Edith Finch
God of War
Outer Wilds
Hades
Returnal
Vampire Survivors

Not seeing much difference in the winners with exception of BAFTA.

The three others for Hades while TGA for Last of Us is all the explanation you need
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
When Geoff went to out to twitter to shout who should be the "biggest snub" category. His award show was no longer anymore prestigious than a damn era listing thread.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
18,178
That's because the mainstream movies are not critically acclaimed as mainstream games. You can bet they will get nominated when they are. I am fairly confident both oppenheimer and Barbie are going to be nominated. Also the only way to get your film nominated in the Oscars is for production houses to market the hell out of the film to the Oscar jury so yeah they production houses do need to market and shell out the money for recognition
And you guessing 2 movies getting nominated is comparable to all of the TGAs?
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,508
Seattle
The BAFTA, GDC, and DICE awards have almost entirely white and western juries, and habitually nominate pretty much only white western games. The TGAs have a reasonably diverse, but still largely western jury, and they are a bit more willing to include Japanese games. Basically none of the awards being talked about here will touch indie games, non-commercial games, mobile games, anything outside of the west plus (sometimes) Japan. Most of gaming just doesn't exist as far as these groups are concerned.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
18,178
I don't blame the voting body, I want a different composition. If you have outlets on there that only have time to play the 15 biggest games of the year, why not add a few outlets that only do indie games to balance them out?
Exactly. Hell, it's bad enough we're calling some mainstream games that sell millions "too niche" to win if they're in a different from normal genre. But at least try a little harder to give indies and other genres a chance instead of shrugging it off like a worthwhile casualty.
 

SoundCheck

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,489
Remember that year that we have Outer Wilds and Disco Elysium and none of them were nominated to GOTY because the press didn't play it. Instead we had things like Outer Worlds and Death Stranding that were more popular. TGA always has been a popularity contest focusing on AAA games.
 

Strittles

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,057
There has always been complaints about the inherent fakeness of the Game Awards since it's truly just Keighley's Winter Game Fest disguised as the oscars. Despite that, people still want the awards side to be taken more seriously given how the show is presented to be more prestige than it actually is, but the games that are picked and the way the awards are treated during the show just makes the marketing nature of the whole thing even more blatant.

There's also something to be said on how a fair amount of game critique and journalism can often feel like a part of the marketing machine instead of separate which can add a degree a bias to the voting but that's a more complicated discussion.
 

Otakunofuji

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,397
I can't believe people can go "The actual best games can't / won't get nominated because reasons and that's OK" with a straight face. At this point it's Diet E3 for announcements and nothing but console warz fodder for the awards.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,536
I have to disagree. Gaming is not that narrow and there are hundreds of worthwhile games that fly under the radar each year.

I agree that every year has tons of worthwhile games. But the point I was making is that once you begin to boil down those games to which people consider to be the best, it becomes very narrow. Just look at the Top 3 games from this forum each year since it began

2017
1.) Breath of the Wild
2.) Super Mario Odyssey
3.) Nier: Automata

2018
1.) God of War
2.) Spider-Man
3.) Red Dead Redemption 2

2019
1.) Resident Evil 2
2.) Sekiro
3.) Fire Emblem: Three Houses

2020
1.) The Last of Us Part II
2.) Final Fantasy VII: Remake
3.) Hades

2021
1.) Metroid Dread
2.) Returnal
3.) Resident Evil Village

2022
1.) Elden Ring
2.) God of War Ragnarok
3.) Vampire Saviors

So for all the shit that The Game Awards get for their winners and nominees, there really isn't much deviation there. And i'd imagine the same is true for other places where they get shit.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,298
Sekiro is now a 5M+ seller that was received with critical-acclaim, but you know, if was far more popular between critics than the general public.

i guess one of the side-effects of TGA is just that.

often a critic's darling gets propelled into mainstream because of the awards.

10+ million seller.
 

SmittyWerbenManJensen

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,910
Floater’s Cemetery
Do people actually, genuinely care about GOTY awards? I could not care less about this crap. Look at the nominations for Geoff's show: all super popular, AAA games. What about the indies and lower budget games? There was one publication last year that chose Norco as their GOTY (I think...or it was very high up), which was refreshing to see, and I used the rest of their list to discover some cool, under-the-radar games. But yeah, overall, GOTY awards/shows are silly.