Richiek

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Nov 2, 2017
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I gotta say that Jim Sterling's view of video games as "art" mirror my own. Although video games have made strides in maturing as an art form, they have a long way to go to match other established genres like film and literature. Great narrative and storytelling is not a prerequisite for alot of the games that I enjoy playing.
 

Saucycarpdog

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Oct 25, 2017
16,609
The Last of Us 2 is finally out, and while I won't say Naughty Dog's murder party is one of the most overrated games of all time, I will declare that its achievements have been... overstated. A lot.

Among absurd comparisons to movies and overall contentious discourse, we have the game's very own director using a situation to try and show up a journalist who only recently exposed Naughty Dog's poor treatment of its staff.

So let's talk about that time The Last of Us Part II was compared to Schindler's List, and the absurdly bad faith fallout that certain industry leaders tried to stir up.
 

Grenchel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,321
there's still quite the dissonance between artistic intent and gameplay still. It's hard to comment on murder or revenge when you are mowing down hordes and hordes enemies.
 

Secretofmateria

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Oct 27, 2017
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I think the last of us is a really good video game. But comparing it to schindlers list in terms of importance is way over stepping. Its a well written piece of post apocalyptic fiction, but its not comparable to something based on the damn holocaust.
 

Deleted member 58846

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"Overrated" is such a shitty criticisms it needs to be retired from discourse permanently.
I won't watch this video because I haven't completed the game yet but based on the description, i heartily disagree.
 

Deleted member 46489

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I feel that Neil Druckmann inserting himself into that discussion was very improper. You make your art and put it out in the world and let the world comment on it. You don't argue with people who think poorly of your art. That's like an author replying to goodreads reviews she doesn't agree with. Or a filmmaker posting a video critiquing the reviews of his latest movie. It's just not done.
 

Bus-TEE

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Nov 20, 2017
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Does this actually feature any spoilers for TLOU2?

I usually enjoy his videos but I'll skip this one for the time being if it has story beats/spoilers from the actual game.
 

Secretofmateria

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Oct 27, 2017
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I feel that Neil Druckmann inserting himself into that discussion was very improper. You make your art and put it out in the world and let the world comment on it. You don't argue with people who think poorly of your art. That's like an author replying to goodreads reviews she doesn't agree with. Or a filmmaker posting videos critiquing the reviews of his latest movie. It's just not done.

i agree, i like Neil he seems like a decently down to earth guy, but he was way too up his own ass here
 

Kaswa101

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Oct 28, 2017
17,775
I feel that Neil Druckmann inserting himself into that discussion was very improper. You make your art and put it out in the world and let the world comment on it. You don't argue with people who think poorly of your art. That's like an author replying to goodreads reviews she doesn't agree with. Or a filmmaker posting a video critiquing the reviews of his latest movie. It's just not done.
Agreed
 

Atolm

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Oct 25, 2017
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The art resides in gameplay & replay design (which includes levels, sub-systems and the like) which is the portion only videogames can provide.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,132
But comparing it to schindlers list in terms of importance is way over stepping.
This arguably did not happen. Cannata called the game harrowing and not "fun." The comparison to Schindler's List was that the game was hard to get through for him and an "emotional assault." Nowhere does that imply it's as important to the medium as the film is, nor should invoking Schindler's List be somehow off-limits when comparing media just because it's about such incredibly grave subject matter.
 

Lord Fanny

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Apr 25, 2020
26,132
I find most gamers are pretty illiterate when it comes to other art forms. Like I remember people talking about how Logan was just like The Last of Us, as if the idea of a grizzled old timer being forced to travel with a younger person was something that The Last of Us invented. I think that's why you see a lot of those takes. It's silly, but for people who don't know any better, I somewhat understand it.

And I know someone will quote this saying, 'Well, I read Hemmingway and re-read Ice three times a year a think The Last of Us is the pinnacle of art,' and one, you're lying your ass off and two, I'm obviously talking in general and, to be fair, most people are illiterate nowadays so I don't think it's that controversial

EDIT:

It seems this post got a lot more attention than I expected lol, but it also seems that most people who are both agreeing and disagreeing with me don't understand what I am really saying, which is probably on me for the word choice, so I am going to add this quote from a response I had that kind of makes it a little clearer.


First, nothing I said was about video games being or not being artistic achievements. What I was saying what that that illiteracy with other mediums shows in comparisons like these. It's pretty much always Citizen Kane, Schindler's List or The Godfather. Why not say, 'Gaming has really reached McCarthy's harrowing portrayal of human savagery like seen in The Road,' or 'This is so much like Mary Shelley's The Last Man in its intensity.' Obviously, part of that is because he knows that comparing it to Schindler's List would get him more attention (based on his tweets, it's obvious he likes to do that), but I also think it shows that sort of rudimentary knowledge of the content from other mediums, many of which, ironically, The Last of Us takes from directly or indirectly. People keep bringing up that Cannata was talking about emotional impact, but everyone understands that, it's just meaningless. Anything can have emotional impact on anyone. People cried when Iron Man died in Endgame. People cried when The Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak ended. Yet, I don't think most would call either of those things the Schindler's List of superhero movies or wrestling lol.

As far as the rest, I don't see what Jason said as trying to protect movies from the 'video game loving' masses at all. I think he was just pointing out that comparing the two is just not a good comparison for the reason I outlined above. In the end, even though TLOU2 is a dark game that is more challenging than the average AAA blockbuster, it's still one that's still designed around excitement, "normal" people doing extraordinary things in an unrealistic setting featuring fungus headed zombies that fart acid when they die. It's not to downplay the artistic side of the game, or gaming in general, but you can't compare that to something like Schindler's List, which strives to recreate real life death and genocide and how people reacted, and didn't react, to that.

There's so many other ways to communicate how TLOU2 communicates itself as a piece of art, but that ain't it. It was never about protecting films, it was just a bad fucking take by a guy who really likes to make outrageous takes. But people are so defensive of Naughty Dog's output and The Last of Us specifically, that people really put up their shields when anything is even seen as the slightest of negative reaction to it.
 
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Cerulean_skylark

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Oct 31, 2017
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I find most gamers are pretty illiterate when it comes to other art forms. Like I remember people talking about how Logan was just like The Last of Us, as if the idea of a grizzled old timer being forced to travel with a younger person was something that The Last of Us invented. I think that's why you see a lot of those takes. It's silly, but for people who don't know any better, I somewhat understand it.

Or it could be that TLOU successfully retained itself in the pop-culture mindset really effectively 🤷
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,568
I find most gamers are pretty illiterate when it comes to other art forms. Like I remember people talking about how Logan was just like The Last of Us, as if the idea of a grizzled old timer being forced to travel with a younger person was something that The Last of Us invented.
Yeeeep

Nier Automata fans also faced with their first sci-fi work, basically
 

Mr.Deadshot

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Oct 27, 2017
20,285
I don't get the whole "videogames can't have good stories" claim. I see that a lot, even around here. But as someone who watches a lot of movies and plays a lot of videogames, I'd say there is great and bad stuff in both media. And TLOU 2 is certainly among the best when it comes down to telling a story and making you feel about the characters. I get that this is a very subjective thing, but it's the same with movies.
 

Deleted member 15311

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I find most gamers are pretty illiterate when it comes to other art forms. Like I remember people talking about how Logan was just like The Last of Us, as if the idea of a grizzled old timer being forced to travel with a younger person was something that The Last of Us invented. I think that's why you see a lot of those takes. It's silly, but for people who don't know any better, I somewhat understand it.

And I know someone will quote this saying, 'Well, I read Hemmingway and re-read Ice three times a year a think The Last of Us is the pinnacle of art,' and one, you're lying your ass off and two, I'm obviously talking in general and, to be fair, most people are illiterate nowadays so I don't think it's that controversial
So true.
 

entremet

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Oct 26, 2017
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Yeeeep

Nier Automata fans also faced with their first sci-fi work, basically
Nah. I've read all that stuff. What made Nier great was how it incorporated those themes in a video game. But the tropes were overdone--machines becoming "human", etc.

It's how Nier packages all those things amongst other things in the gaming medium.
 

srtrestre

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Oct 25, 2017
18,994
I find most gamers are pretty illiterate when it comes to other art forms. Like I remember people talking about how Logan was just like The Last of Us, as if the idea of a grizzled old timer being forced to travel with a younger person was something that The Last of Us invented. I think that's why you see a lot of those takes. It's silly, but for people who don't know any better, I somewhat understand it.
Dude, as a film buff, so much this.

You see this nonsense with Kojima, too. I literally know gamers who think he invented the concept of nanomachines or exoskeletons.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,538
This arguably did not happen. Cannata called the game harrowing and not "fun." The comparison to Schindler's List was that the game was hard to get through for him and an "emotional assault." Nowhere does that imply it's as important to the medium as the film is, nor should invoking Schindler's List be somehow off-limits when comparing media just because it's about such incredibly grave subject matter.

That's how I read his comment as well.
 

andymcc

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Oct 25, 2017
26,435
Columbus, OH
when that reviewer compared it to schindler's list, i thought, "man it is like the anne frank death stranding post from ERA but someone got paid for it!"
 

Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
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Hi. I read sci-fi books all the time. Nier Automata is amazing.

I don't think it's a matter of its quality (i would also argue NieR's strength is in adapting these themes into an interactive medium), but rather they aren't new takes like someone who almost exclusively plays video games might feel.
 

Kenzodielocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,881
Cannatas statement wasn't about the contents of the movie and game, but the feeling. His comparison is dumb, but he apologized for it.
 

janusff

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Oct 25, 2017
18,221
Austin, TX
Poor Cannata. Dude was just saying with that tweet that the game was like Sch List cause of how it made him feel while playing it. and that it was similar. Dude was in no way comparing the game to the holocaust, but rather the film itself. but whatever
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
I mean he is right, this is how it goes

Critics give games super high scores and it's Moses coming down the mountain.

Then 2 weeks later articles come out being like "actually, no not that great, good but it has its problems"
 

Lone

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Mar 6, 2019
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Poor Cannata. Dude was just saying with that tweet that the game was like Sch List cause of how it made him feel while playing it. and that it was similar. Dude was in no way comparing the game to the holocaust, but rather the film itself. but whatever
I really don't understand how people don't get this. I feel like people are purposefully being dense.
 

entremet

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Oct 26, 2017
60,879
I don't think it's a matter of its quality (i would also argue NieR's strength is in adapting these themes into an interactive medium), but rather they aren't new takes like someone who almost exclusively plays video games might feel.
Most art is derivative. Even Shakespeare's stuff was based on previous material. Because someone enjoyed Nier doesn't' mean they're not aware of these themes existing somewhere before.
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,872


I gotta say that Jim Sterling's view of video games as "art" mirror my own. Although video games have made strides in maturing as an art form, they have a long way to go to match other established genres like film and literature. Great narrative and storytelling is not a prerequisite for alot of the games that I enjoy playing.


I can't see this improving until how games are critiqued is improved. The GotY, 10/10 reviews write themselves when games are announced and it just does not happen in movies or literature.
 

Yog-Sothoth

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Oct 1, 2018
3,225
Lol he made a video inspired by a misunderstood tweet.

Anyway, TLOU2 is actually the Dark Souls of holocaust movies.
 

Deleted member 15311

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Yeah. This take "if you love the story of a game you are illiterate" is frankly really elitist.
Err i think what he means is the way people treat stories in games like it was never done before in other medium and better. It's not like he/she's saying you are illiterate if you enjoy the story in a game.
 

Brotherhood93

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Oct 28, 2017
2,832
I think the last of us is a really good video game. But comparing it to schindlers list in terms of importance is way over stepping. Its a well written piece of post apocalyptic fiction, but its not comparable to something based on the damn holocaust.
It was never compared to Schindler's List in terms of importance.

I'm not really familiar with Jeff Cannata and I don't think it was a particularly smart or insightful tweet but the way people have jumped on him over it is embarrassing, especially when they are purposefully misinterpreting it at this point.
 

TaterTots

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Oct 27, 2017
12,993
Poor Cannata. Dude was just saying with that tweet that the game was like Sch List cause of how it made him feel while playing it. and that it was similar. Dude was in no way comparing the game to the holocaust, but rather the film itself. but whatever

I know. Ppl just run with shit nowadays.
 

Ghostbound

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Oct 25, 2017
449
Florida
I find most gamers are pretty illiterate when it comes to other art forms. Like I remember people talking about how Logan was just like The Last of Us, as if the idea of a grizzled old timer being forced to travel with a younger person was something that The Last of Us invented. I think that's why you see a lot of those takes. It's silly, but for people who don't know any better, I somewhat understand it.

No lies.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
I don't get the whole "videogames can't have good stories" claim. I see that a lot, even around here. But as someone who watches a lot of movies and plays a lot of videogames, I'd say there is great and bad stuff in both media. And TLOU 2 is certainly among the best when it comes down to telling a story and making you feel about the characters. I get that this is a very subjective thing, but it's the same with movies.
Yes, absolutely this. It's really just an old sentiment that refuses to die and is repeated uncritically. The average Hollywood movie is quite shit and often has pretty basic plotting and mediocre characters.

don't get me wrong I think there are some movies that can't be touched and on average games are less focused on a coherent story, but the best of videogames and interactive storytelling has been just as effective in evoking strong emotions and powerful themes as many films that are deemed "classics" to me. They just take more investment than a medium that's mostly relegated to about two hours to tell it's story.

there is the issue of game mechanics interfering with story sometime, but I think a lot of games have gotten much better at blending these two in recent years.
 

noyram23

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Oct 25, 2017
9,372
I find most gamers are pretty illiterate when it comes to other art forms. Like I remember people talking about how Logan was just like The Last of Us, as if the idea of a grizzled old timer being forced to travel with a younger person was something that The Last of Us invented. I think that's why you see a lot of those takes. It's silly, but for people who don't know any better, I somewhat understand it.

And I know someone will quote this saying, 'Well, I read Hemmingway and re-read Ice three times a year a think The Last of Us is the pinnacle of art,' and one, you're lying your ass off and two, I'm obviously talking in general and, to be fair, most people are illiterate nowadays so I don't think it's that controversial
Maybe that's just the recent media they can compare it with, but then again i'm probably just an illiterate so what do i know lol
 

Jeffram

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,952
Things I like hearing Jim talking about:
- Bad games
- deceptive marketing
- shitty monetization
- exposing bad business practices
etc

A twitter feud based on a disingenuous argument is not among them.