Tuppen

Member
Nov 28, 2017
2,064
I don't know this is common knowledge, but I thought it was worth sharing:





So basically the Swedish words råd (advice) and rekommendation (recommendation) mean one thing to people in general (in common parlance) and have a very "soft" meaning much as they do in English, but when a national authority uses the same words it is binding. The usage from national authorities is in direct contradiction to the common understanding of the words. This is something which I believe is counterproductive to the handling of the pandemic, which consists of, for example, dissuading people from travel and social gatherings. If someone tells you that they recommend you to stay at home over Easter, would you be shaking in your boots and complying unquestioningly? Would you expect a hefty fine if you didn't?
Actually you don't have to follow "allmänna råd", if you don't though you are at greater risk of breaking laws and provisions.
But isn't it true that no one has the authority to enforce them, making them all pretty much toothless?
They are pretty toothless and I guess it's complicated to enforce them to my understanding.
Quoting from Boverket's website where I found a summary of Sweden's legal hierarchy in English.
Regulation hierarchy
Regulations relate to each other in a predetermined way.

Fundamental laws
There is a kind of law that needs to be mentioned separately: fundamental laws. Sweden has four fundamental laws: the Instrument of Government, the Act of Succession, the Freedom of the Press Act, and the Fundamental Law on Freedom of Expression. These fundamental laws stand above all other laws, which means that other laws may not conflict with the content of fundamental laws.

Other laws
Sweden's laws (Acts) are adopted by the Riksdag (Parliament) and constitute the foundation of Swedish legislation. It is possible for Acts to contain provisions allowing the Government, or the agency determined by the Government, to issue mandatory provisions (authorisation). When Ordinances and mandatory provisions are drafted, they must keep within the stipulations of their Acts. That is, Ordinances and mandatory provisions provide a more precise clarification of what is laid down in the Acts.

Ordinances
Sweden's Ordinances are adopted by the Government.

Certain kinds of provisions do not need to be regulated through an Act. Instead, the level of Ordinance is sufficient for this purpose. This is often the case with grants handled by Boverket.

But it is common for Ordinances to clarify and specify what is laid down in Acts. In order for the Government to draft an Ordinance in an area that is regulated through an Act, the Riksdag must give the Government an authorisation to draft more detailed regulations.

Mandatory provisions
The guidance provided in Acts and Ordinances is not always sufficient, and there might be a need for even more detailed regulations. In such cases, mandatory provisions are drafted. It is government agencies that draft mandatory provisions. In order for a government agency to draft mandatory provisions, the Ordinance must contain an authorisation.

General recommendations
A general recommendation states how someone can or should go about meeting a binding regulation in an Act, Ordinance or mandatory provision. A general recommendation may be seen as a toolbox presenting a method or solution. But if you choose not to do things in the manner stated in the general recommendation, you must be able to show that the binding regulations are still met.

A government agency may draft a general recommendation without having an authorisation as long as the general recommendation lies within the agency's area of activity. A general recommendation may be drafted to directly accompany an Act, Ordinance or mandatory provision.
 

Ragnar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,357
Having spoken to shop owners down here, they seemingly haven't noticed any reduction in the usual uptick in tourists from Stockholm. The bike shop I was in said that they were, if anything, more busy than they normally are around Easter. And while the official art trail has been cancelled, there's no shortage of advertisments in the local papers for private art exhibitions, restaurant offerings and other activities. I just have to wonder how selfish one has to be to travel from the country's hotbed of infection to less affected areas, when it's well known that you don't even have to show symptoms in order to be infectious.

On a related note, I've always loved being outside, but also always try to avoid encountering people when I am. Maybe that has skewed my perception compared to normal people who don't really mind meeting other when out and about, but you'd think that considering how large "nature" is, it would be easy to avoid rubbing elbows in these expectional times and spread out a bit more. But nope. Apparently it's impossible for some people to go anywhere lacking tables, benches, toilets, trails and info boards. Which means that people still congregate in a few select spots and ignore the rest of the countryside. Case in point:

IMG-20200405-145734.jpg


IMG-20200405-150530.jpg
 

zeknurn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,289
Having spoken to shop owners down here, they seemingly haven't noticed any reduction in the usual uptick in tourists from Stockholm. The bike shop I was in said that they were, if anything, more busy than they normally are around Easter. And while the official art trail has been cancelled, there's no shortage of advertisments in the local papers for private art exhibitions, restaurant offerings and other activities. I just have to wonder how selfish one has to be to travel from the country's hotbed of infection to less affected areas, when it's well known that you don't even have to show symptoms in order to be infectious.

On a related note, I've always loved being outside, but also always try to avoid encountering people when I am. Maybe that has skewed my perception compared to normal people who don't really mind meeting other when out and about, but you'd think that considering how large "nature" is, it would be easy to avoid rubbing elbows in these expectional times and spread out a bit more. But nope. Apparently it's impossible for some people to go anywhere lacking tables, benches, toilets, trails and info boards. Which means that people still congregate in a few select spots and ignore the rest of the countryside. Case in point:

IMG-20200405-145734.jpg


IMG-20200405-150530.jpg

Yeah, most Swedes don't give a shit. I had to head into the city for the first time in three weeks to get a vaccine and people of all ages were out and about like usual.

Where's this at btw? Looks familiar.
 

Deleted member 25834

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Sweden has almost double the deaths of Canada, yet only about 1/3 of the population. Err...

Even with the measures that Canada is taking, the death figures are still nothing to scoff at and testing is apparently still a ways away from where it should be. What the hell is Sweden doing?
 

Tuppen

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Nov 28, 2017
2,064
Sweden has almost double the deaths of Canada, yet only about 1/3 of the population. Err...

Even with the measures that Canada is taking, the death figures are still nothing to scoff at and testing is apparently still a ways away from where it should be. What the hell is Sweden doing?
Sweden is being cynical or naive. Most likely cynical in doing the assessment that it will not be possible to suppress the virus until a vaccine is available. Thus mitigation is the logical solution since suppression now will only delay deaths until the fall and not much will be gained. This is my interpretation of the situation mind you not the official line according to the government.
 

sanstesy

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Nov 16, 2017
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Sweden has almost double the deaths of Canada, yet only about 1/3 of the population. Err...

Even with the measures that Canada is taking, the death figures are still nothing to scoff at and testing is apparently still a ways away from where it should be. What the hell is Sweden doing?

It's called germanic superiority complex.
 

Tuppen

Member
Nov 28, 2017
2,064
But why Sweden and not Norway for example?

I hope my wife's friends there have been isolating. Beautiful country, hope things work out.
I'm guessing that we're just not very fascist/authoritarian in Sweden and there is no legal way to enforce a lock-down in Sweden in peace time. Also there is also the fact that Sweden has not been at war for 200 hundred years so we're prone to think we'll be fine either way.
 

Principate

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Oct 31, 2017
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Sweden is being cynical or naive. Most likely cynical in doing the assessment that it will not be possible to suppress the virus until a vaccine is available. Thus mitigation is the logical solution since suppression now will only delay deaths until the fall and not much will be gained. This is my interpretation of the situation mind you not the official line according to the government.
UK literally had the same stupid ass idea, we're now at 1000 deaths a day. It's a bad idea and was always a bad idea.
 

eonden

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Oct 25, 2017
17,186
I'm guessing that we're just not very fascist/authoritarian in Sweden and there is no legal way to enforce a lock-down in Sweden in peace time. Also there is also the fact that Sweden has not been at war for 200 hundred years so we're prone to think we'll be fine either way.
This is not about being fascist authoritarian (unless you believe the other european countries are like that).
It probably comes from the "lagom" mentality of swedish people which is decent at making good decisions given time but once there needs to be a sudden action with little information fails. In these cases, it is not about "not too much not too little just enough" but it is better to overreact.
 

Micael

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Oct 28, 2017
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Sweden has almost double the deaths of Canada, yet only about 1/3 of the population. Err...

Even with the measures that Canada is taking, the death figures are still nothing to scoff at and testing is apparently still a ways away from where it should be. What the hell is Sweden doing?

Honestly regardless of how poorly Sweden is handling things, Canada was pretty much always going to be more successful, in fact short of doing things extremely poorly, Canada was always going to be more successful than most other countries, the population density in Canada is one of the lowest in the world and that matters a lot in a decease that is spreading through physical proximity.
This is before we go into things that are adjacent to that, like your transportation between different parts of the country being let us say not great, which is also very important since it severely minimizes the movement between regions, who knew Air Canada monopoly was just looking out for Canadians all along XD.
 

Ragnar

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Oct 28, 2017
1,357
Yeah, most Swedes don't give a shit. I had to head into the city for the first time in three weeks to get a vaccine and people of all ages were out and about like usual.

Where's this at btw? Looks familiar.
Fyledalen, near Tomelilla, Österlen. It's a large wooded area tied together with a network of small gravel roads, and it's also a popular bird watching spot. But what I've photographed is the "hub" of the area as far as visitors are concerned, and if you search for Fyledalen on Google Maps this is the exact location you'll end up with. It's also the only spot with parking, toilets, benches, and info boards. So that's where people tend to congregate. Which has always been great for me, personally, because it means that I get the rest of the area for "myself" and won't meet anyone else, but it's less optimal in terms of limiting COVID-19 because everyone's bundled together.
 

Mixen

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Oct 28, 2017
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The situation in the Stockholm region has pretty much levelled. The rest of Sweden is simillar to the other Nordic countries but will rise over the next weeks. Denmark and Norway will start to lift their restrictions because the spread is going to slow.

When this is over we can analyze what worked well and what didn't. The big thing for us in Sweden sems to get out elder care fixed.
 

Tuppen

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Nov 28, 2017
2,064
UK literally had the same stupid ass idea, we're now at 1000 deaths a day. It's a bad idea and was always a bad idea.
While I think Sweden isn't doing enough, we won't know for sure what approach will work out the best for at least a year probably longer.
This is not about being fascist authoritarian (unless you believe the other european countries are like that).
It probably comes from the "lagom" mentality of swedish people which is decent at making good decisions given time but once there needs to be a sudden action with little information fails. In these cases, it is not about "not too much not too little just enough" but it is better to overreact.
"Lagom" might as you say play a role but that doesn't change that government enforced lock downs are a severe infraction of our freedoms. As such lock downs seem authoritarian to me, especially when coupled with moved elections that have happened in some countries. There is something to the "Freedom is not free" saying and it doesn't seem as though the world at this time is willing to pay that much.
 

Euler

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Oct 27, 2017
4,925
Sweden has almost double the deaths of Canada, yet only about 1/3 of the population. Err...

Even with the measures that Canada is taking, the death figures are still nothing to scoff at and testing is apparently still a ways away from where it should be. What the hell is Sweden doing?
You're making a dumb comparison. Canada had their first confirmed death March 20th, Sweden had their first confirmed death March 11th.

Thus, Sweden is about 9 days ahead of Canada in terms of the spread of the disease.

Today, Canada has 461 confirmed deaths. 9 days ago, Sweden had... 180 confirmed deaths. Per capita, that is slightly more than Canada. It's nothing like what you're describing, though.
 

Älg

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May 13, 2018
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Sweden has almost double the deaths of Canada, yet only about 1/3 of the population. Err...

Even with the measures that Canada is taking, the death figures are still nothing to scoff at and testing is apparently still a ways away from where it should be. What the hell is Sweden doing?

Belgium has more than 5 times as many deaths as Canada, with a similar population to Sweden, despite the outbreak starting a week later there. I'm not going to try and guess why that is; there's already an unhealthy amount of guessing and armchair expertise going around in this thread.
 

amanset

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Oct 28, 2017
1,577
I ventured out yesterday as my blood sugar monitoring sensors got delivered and I had to pick them up, so I thought I'd do a bit of food shopping as I was already out and about. I finally saw my first person wearing a mask, but unfortunately it was an old person in a mobility scooter who literally parked in the doorway to Hemköp and took an age to put the thing on. The staff seemed to be having some sort of training, so a group of 10-12 of them moved around the store in one big huddle, ignoring any social distancing between themselves but also any social distancing with any customers. Of the two groups in front of me in the checkout line the first was a group of three that were there for that essential purchase of a box of lollies/popsicles and the other was a group of two apparently preparing for the world's biggest barbecue (the buying of charcoal gave that away).

So all going swimmingly in suburban Stockholm.

I noticed that the government is now threatening restaurants with closure if they don't comply with the 50 person order, specifically mentioning the outside seating areas.
 

amanset

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Oct 28, 2017
1,577
Belgium has more than 5 times as many deaths as Canada, with a similar population to Sweden, despite the outbreak starting a week later there. I'm not going to try and guess why that is; there's already an unhealthy amount of guessing and armchair expertise going around in this thread.

Belgium is also extremely population dense.

Then again, Hong Kong is too and they've got a handle on this, despite having a land border with the country it all started in. Mainly because they know what to do and stuck to it.
 

greepoman

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Oct 26, 2017
1,987
Belgium has more than 5 times as many deaths as Canada, with a similar population to Sweden, despite the outbreak starting a week later there. I'm not going to try and guess why that is; there's already an unhealthy amount of guessing and armchair expertise going around in this thread.
Yeah it's an interesting problem. There are probably some measures that don't have much effect and maybe we'll learn more as nations start easing things. Maybe just bans on large gatherings are enough (if you don't have large scale public transport) to keep things manageable.
 

Deleted member 14459

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The situation in the Stockholm region has pretty much levelled. The rest of Sweden is simillar to the other Nordic countries but will rise over the next weeks. Denmark and Norway will start to lift their restrictions because the spread is going to slow.

When this is over we can analyze what worked well and what didn't. The big thing for us in Sweden sems to get out elder care fixed.

Can you explain "pretty much levelled", the daily deaths in Stockholm went from 38 to 67 in one day?
 

electristan

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Oct 25, 2017
261
Norway
I would find it hard as a family member or friend of one of the 790+ people who have died to accept the fact that the minimal effort was made to protect those vulnerable in my country compared to almost every other country out there.

I can not believe that if Sweden had taken stricter measures the numbers would be the same. Perhaps still higher than the other Nordic countries, but lives would be saved, and the persons backing this nonchalant approach just accepting that deaths are higher with phrases like "we will see who was right at the end" baffle me.

There are methods that are proven to work. use them. peoples lives are not something to gamble with.
 

amanset

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Oct 28, 2017
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Can you explain "pretty much levelled", the daily deaths in Stockholm went from 38 to 67 in one day?

IIRC the talk if of the amount of people being hospitalised versus the amount being released from hospital. Allegedly it is about 1:1 now, so there is no specific increase. But that's off the top of my head, they were talking about it the other day.
 

Mixen

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Oct 28, 2017
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I would find it hard as a family member or friend of one of the 790+ people who have died to accept the fact that the minimal effort was made to protect those vulnerable in my country compared to almost every other country out there.

I can not believe that if Sweden had taken stricter measures the numbers would be the same. Perhaps still higher than the other Nordic countries, but lives would be saved, and the persons backing this nonchalant approach just accepting that deaths are higher with phrases like "we will see who was right at the end" baffle me.

There are methods that are proven to work. use them. peoples lives are not something to gamble with.

This is a pandemic, people are going to die and nobody knows what works and what doesn't. I read in an interview with Norways chief epidemiologist where he described Sweden as having a more careful strategy. Think about what he means by that.
Norway is about to start lifting restrictions because the spread is to slow. The path to herd immunity is long and hard...
 

electristan

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Oct 25, 2017
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Norway
This is a pandemic, people are going to die and nobody knows what works and what doesn't. I read in an interview with Norways chief epidemiologist where he described Sweden as having a more careful strategy. Think about what he means by that.
Norway is about to start lifting restrictions because the spread is to slow. The path to herd immunity is long and hard...

We do know some of what works and what does not. There is months of data to look at now and see.

Trusting to hope and experimenting on the population is a bad look. If you are comparing Norway to Sweden one country has ~4 times the amount of dead per million. I dont see how you look at that and say "we are doing the best we can".

I am obviously not an expert, however each country has its own experts and when there is few outliers, and they are doing less well than compatible other counties who are being strickter, they should perhaps reassess.

Sweden seems to be accepting that they are loosing more people than the countries around them, which i find saddening.
 

Paganmoon

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Oct 26, 2017
5,586
Can you explain "pretty much levelled", the daily deaths in Stockholm went from 38 to 67 in one day?
Deaths in Sweden for the last 10 days:
rmCgVHq.png


Do note, the numbers for the last 3 days usually change.

480 of the 790 deaths in Sweden have been in Stockholm.

Another point to note, the numbers get updated daily but often deaths from several days ago that weren't counted before get added to the uptick of the day, thus you get 90 new deaths in a day but the deaths per day can be lower.
 

The Big Short

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Oct 29, 2017
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Sweden's governing party, Socialdemokraterna, had their biggest polling bump ever, rising 6.8% to a total of 30.6%. This is after years of decline.
www.expressen.se

REKORDÖKNING: S rusar i ny mätning från SvD/Sifo – största uppgången i Sifos historia

Socialdemokraterna ökar rekordmycket i en ny undersökning från Svenska Dagbladet och Sifo. Efter en ökning med 6,8 procentenheter landar partiet på 30,6 procent. – Det är en exceptionell uppgång, säger Toivo Sjörén, opinionschef på Sifo, till SvD.
 

Deleted member 14459

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Deaths in Sweden for the last 10 days:
Another point to note, the numbers get updated daily but often deaths from several days ago that weren't counted before get added to the uptick of the day, thus you get 90 new deaths in a day but the deaths per day can be lower.

People in Sweden keep repeating this as if this is specific for Swedish data. This is the case with all countries, and the daily reported death #

amanset's point about hospitalization : release makes more sense although I have not found Swedish data sets about released patients

- what does Sthlm death# look like 10 days backwards discounting last three?
 

Everill

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Dec 2, 2018
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I'm no expert of any area related to this so I don't know who is doing the right approach and this thing is going to be around for awhile.
But like my gut feeling is not quarantining people coming home from risk areas in feb/march was a huge mistake no matter what "strategy/level of lockdown" you're going for? and it feels to me quite obvious we were not prepared in anyway with stockpiles of protective gear / medicine and with laws ready.
 

excelsiorlef

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Oct 25, 2017
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Sweden has almost double the deaths of Canada, yet only about 1/3 of the population. Err...

Even with the measures that Canada is taking, the death figures are still nothing to scoff at and testing is apparently still a ways away from where it should be. What the hell is Sweden doing?

Amazing that just weeks ago there were people here defending Sweden's approach in context of also defending the initial UK's approach.
 

Deleted member 1476

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I would find it hard as a family member or friend of one of the 790+ people who have died to accept the fact that the minimal effort was made to protect those vulnerable in my country compared to almost every other country out there.

I can not believe that if Sweden had taken stricter measures the numbers would be the same. Perhaps still higher than the other Nordic countries, but lives would be saved, and the persons backing this nonchalant approach just accepting that deaths are higher with phrases like "we will see who was right at the end" baffle me.

There are methods that are proven to work. use them. peoples lives are not something to gamble with.

It is disgusting that some are willing to throw the immunocompromised and the elderly away like garbage, even here. "Oh well, people die" is bullshit.
 

Paganmoon

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Oct 26, 2017
5,586
People in Sweden keep repeating this as if this is specific for Swedish data. This is the case with all countries, and the daily reported death #

amanset's point about hospitalization : release makes more sense although I have not found Swedish data sets about released patients

- what does Sthlm death# look like 10 days backwards discounting last three?
I mentioned it to note why the numbers of deaths for the day in media and the numbers on the chart don't match.
Sweden doesn't have data about recovery as our patients laws won't allow such info to be gathered and disseminated.

Stockholm's data can be found here (not totally sure about the validity of this site, but the numbers for today do match the official numbers):

C19.SE - Coronavirus i Sverige

Information om coronaviruset och covid-19 i Sverige med statistik över smittspridning m.m.
 

Fugu

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Oct 26, 2017
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Honestly regardless of how poorly Sweden is handling things, Canada was pretty much always going to be more successful, in fact short of doing things extremely poorly, Canada was always going to be more successful than most other countries, the population density in Canada is one of the lowest in the world and that matters a lot in a decease that is spreading through physical proximity.
This is before we go into things that are adjacent to that, like your transportation between different parts of the country being let us say not great, which is also very important since it severely minimizes the movement between regions, who knew Air Canada monopoly was just looking out for Canadians all along XD.
Canada is population dense in the parts where people actually live. For most people who live in Canada, the population density they're used to is in the hundreds or even thousands per square kilometer, which is right on par for Europe.

Population density is an extremely misleading statistic because it doesn't tell you for how much of the population that data is representative. The number is only so low because the uninhabited parts of Canada really are that big.
 

Deleted member 29293

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You're making a dumb comparison. Canada had their first confirmed death March 20th, Sweden had their first confirmed death March 11th.

Thus, Sweden is about 9 days ahead of Canada in terms of the spread of the disease.

Today, Canada has 461 confirmed deaths. 9 days ago, Sweden had... 180 confirmed deaths. Per capita, that is slightly more than Canada. It's nothing like what you're describing, though.
Then compare it to Poland, they had the first death afaik only 1 day apart but Poland is on the very other end of the spectrum in regards to reacting to Covid-19, i.e. Sweden almost doing nothing and Poland reacting very fast with strict measures even before the first death. Sweden currently has 4 times the death with 1/4 of the population. That said, as some posters said it will be a long time until we will be able to understand the full outcome of the different reactions but for now Sweden is absolutely seeing more death compared to countries with stricter policies.
 

Euler

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Oct 27, 2017
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Then compare it to Poland, they had the first death afaik only 1 day apart but Poland is on the very other end of the spectrum in regards to reacting to Covid-19, i.e. Sweden almost doing nothing and Poland reacting very fast with strict measures even before the first death. Sweden currently has 4 times the death with 1/4 of the population. That said, as some posters said it will be a long time until we will be able to understand the full outcome of the different reactions but for now Sweden is absolutely seeing more death compared to countries with stricter policies.
Saying "absolutely" seems premature considering your own Canada example.

Using a more similar country to Sweden than Poland, let's use Denmark as an example. Denmark had their first death 3 days later than Sweden so we compare Denmark today to Sweden 3 days ago.
Denmark today : 237 deaths
Sweden 3 days ago: 477 deaths
Sweden has about twice the population as Denmark, and about twice the number of deaths. So per capita it's the same, despite Denmark having a lot more draconian lockdown rules.

Norway, on the other hand, has managed it a lot better. They have a similar population to Denmark but only 101 deaths. They also have draconian lockdown rules similar to Denmark.

The point is there's a lot more going on than only the lockdown rules, and it will absolutely take a long time before we understand the full extent of what strategy worked well or not.
 
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Nivash

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Oct 25, 2017
1,469
I'm no expert of any area related to this so I don't know who is doing the right approach and this thing is going to be around for awhile.
But like my gut feeling is not quarantining people coming home from risk areas in feb/march was a huge mistake no matter what "strategy/level of lockdown" you're going for? and it feels to me quite obvious we were not prepared in anyway with stockpiles of protective gear / medicine and with laws ready.

A quarantine likely wouldn't have made a significant difference. The known homecomers were fairly closely tracked, others arriving by detours from other risk areas - like Iran - weren't. Not to mention people who got infected in ways that couldn't be tracked, like in transit airports or from other travelers in other circumstances. It's one of those things that seem to make obvious sense until you look at all the ways it would inevitably fail.
 

Deleted member 29293

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Saying "absolutely" seems premature considering your own Canada example.

Using a more similar country to Sweden than Poland, let's use Denmark as an example. Denmark had their first death 3 days later than Sweden so we compare Denmark today to Sweden 3 days ago.
Denmark today : 237 deaths
Sweden 3 days ago: 477 deaths
Sweden has about twice the population as Denmark, and about twice the number of deaths. So per capita it's the same, despite Denmark having a lot more draconian lockdown rules.

Norway, on the other hand, has managed it a lot better. They have a similar population to Denmark but only 101 deaths. They also have draconian lockdown rules similar to Denmark.

The point is there's a lot more going on than only the lockdown rules, and it will absolutely take a long time before we understand the full extent of what strategy worked well or not.
I don't think this comparison holds, with this uncertainty you could always pick data points to make any argument. In the end the total death in Sweden has almost doubled in these last 3 days and I am afraid they still have the worst in front of them. The current daily death rate is roughly 4 to 5 times higher then Denmark looking at the last couple of days.
 

Micael

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Oct 28, 2017
1,389
Canada is population dense in the parts where people actually live. For most people who live in Canada, the population density they're used to is in the hundreds or even thousands per square kilometer, which is right on par for Europe.

Population density is an extremely misleading statistic because it doesn't tell you for how much of the population that data is representative. The number is only so low because the uninhabited parts of Canada really are that big.

Depends on how you look at the stats, if you are just looking at the singular population density for the entire country, and how that affects the spread within major cities, then yes it can be misleading (even if not entirely insignificant), but if you are looking at it in the ways that the size of the country manifest itself in the spread between different areas, it makes a very sizeable difference, especially given that countries will react base on the number of cases that showed up in their respective country, and not on how spread out through the country it is.

The distance between Vancouver and Toronto alone is about the same as from Portugal to Finland, aka from one side of the EU to the other, and the population between those 2 points is many times bigger inside the EU than it is in Canada, all the while the EU having quite significantly better public transportation to allow movement in mass between its areas, while Canada, having been there, let us just say it doesn't really compare.

Spain alone has significantly more people than the entirety of Canada despite being a much smaller area, and ofc this doesn't manifest itself only on the distance between major cities, which in itself has a major impact, but it also manifests itself in the very distance between houses and buildings, Canada houses are on average about double the square footage as they are in Spain or the United Kingdom, and business establishments also tend to be much larger, with much larger parking lots, making for much greater distances.

For example looking at what is one of the worst case scenarios of Canada city wise and comparing it to Spain, we have Toronto with a population of 3 million people, and Montreal at 550km apart with a population of 1.8 million, in Spain on the other hand we have Madrid with a population of 6.6 million with Barcelona at 625km with a population of 5.5 million, which even when adjusting for the population difference between countries that is several time more people in proximity to one another. Also, I really cannot stress how much better the means of transportation between these the EU cities are, I have been in the 4 cities mentioned above, and yeah while modes of transportation within the city one can make an argument in favor of each (kind of sort of but not really), between cities we aren't even playing in the same league.

As I said in my other post, Canada was always going to do "well" in this, short of some absolutely epic failure on the government part, its geography is borderline unparalleled in how good it is for this kind of situation.
 
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Tuppen

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Nov 28, 2017
2,064
It is disgusting that some are willing to throw the immunocompromised and the elderly away like garbage, even here. "Oh well, people die" is bullshit.
Noone is throwing away people like garbage. That's bullshit. People dying is not bullshit, it's fact. Everyone of the 90000 people that die every year in Sweden has a cause of death, what are you willing to do to prevent those people from dying?
 

Euler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,925
I don't think this comparison holds, with this uncertainty you could always pick data points to make any argument. In the end the total death in Sweden has almost doubled in these last 3 days and I am afraid they still have the worst in front of them. The current daily death rate is roughly 4 to 5 times higher then Denmark looking at the last couple of days.

You need to compensate for countries being ahead in the curve or not, or else you can cherry pick whatever numbers you want.
It makes no sense to compare Denmark today with Sweden today. It's the same mistake you made with the Canada comparison.
 

The Nightsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,549
We do know some of what works and what does not. There is months of data to look at now and see.

Trusting to hope and experimenting on the population is a bad look. If you are comparing Norway to Sweden one country has ~4 times the amount of dead per million. I dont see how you look at that and say "we are doing the best we can".

I am obviously not an expert, however each country has its own experts and when there is few outliers, and they are doing less well than compatible other counties who are being strickter, they should perhaps reassess.

Sweden seems to be accepting that they are loosing more people than the countries around them, which i find saddening.
Sweden is doing a lot. It's also a marathon not a sprint. A total lockdown is hard to maintain for a year or more until there is a vaccine. But I won't pretend to know what's the right course of action. I just know sweden isn't just casually letting people die.
 

electristan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
261
Norway
Sweden is doing a lot. It's also a marathon not a sprint. A total lockdown is hard to maintain for a year or more until there is a vaccine. But I won't pretend to know what's the right course of action. I just know sweden isn't just casually letting people die.

There are many levels of lockdown, almost no places are in total lockdown, but on this scale Sweden is among the laxest and is being hit harder than any other country surrounding it.

There should be some awareness that perhaps that when you are the only one doing a certain thing, and it looks like it is not working as well as other things, maybe try them and not just say "we will see who is right at the end"? I am in Norway, i feel we are even a bit lax, and might be opening up schools to soon (starting april 20th), but we have also said that if we see a rise we will take a step back. I havent seen this reflection become action in Sweden yet. I have hear government and experts say they are taking thing seriously and monitoring, but have seen little change in the approach.

This is why i say it seems to me that they are accepting the current levels even when they could be better, and that is sad.
 

electristan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
261
Norway
Noone is throwing away people like garbage. That's bullshit. People dying is not bullshit, it's fact. Everyone of the 90000 people that die every year in Sweden has a cause of death, what are you willing to do to prevent those people from dying?

There is a huge difference between deaths caused by old age, accidents, cancer and so on, than a new virus killing 90000 world wide in a few months with no vaccine and is spreadable by accident.

If as an example i had to spend a day a week at home to save X lives so they could be safe and shop, that is not really a difficult sacrifice to make.
 

The Nightsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,549
There are many levels of lockdown, almost no places are in total lockdown, but on this scale Sweden is among the laxest and is being hit harder than any other country surrounding it.

There should be some awareness that perhaps that when you are the only one doing a certain thing, and it looks like it is not working as well as other things, maybe try them and not just say "we will see who is right at the end"? I am in Norway, i feel we are even a bit lax, and might be opening up schools to soon (starting april 20th), but we have also said that if we see a rise we will take a step back. I havent seen this reflection become action in Sweden yet. I have hear government and experts say they are taking thing seriously and monitoring, but have seen little change in the approach.

This is why i say it seems to me that they are accepting the current levels even when they could be better, and that is sad.
We can't do much more without there being essentially a total lockdown. Lot of people already angry and impatient for this to be over with. Not sure what change you're looking for.
 

electristan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
261
Norway
We can't do much more without there being essentially a total lockdown. Lot of people already angry and impatient for this to be over with. Not sure what change you're looking for.

To start with gatherings of people at Restaurants, bars, cafés, school canteens, staff canteens, catering services, nightclubs

Based on folkhalsomyndigheten these can all be open as long as they follow certain guidelines. That is a lot less than other countries are doing and encurages travel, being close to many people, and risking spreading to others not even at the place you are at.