Super Smash Bros. Ultimate had an offensive stereotype regarding Native Americans (Update: Removed)

[deepFlaw]

One of my favorite books from Agatha Christie for example is called "And Then There Were None" . The original name of the book was "Ten Little Niggers". They changed the title and explained why on the first pages, while the story is completely intact. It wouldn't work without that rhyme. (I've read it in German and here they only changed the title.)
But I'm now reading that for the United States they changed also all references to the word "Nigger" into "Indians" or "Soldiers". It's a really complicated and delicate matter and it varies across nations, depending on their culture.

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I just went looking into this example more after you mentioned it, because that is also one of my favorite books despite its gross history. Given that "Ten Little Indians" is a song I'd heard of separate from the book, and Christie obviously liked to theme books around actual rhymes/songs, I was suddenly left wondering how much of the updated versions' songs were actually just matching real life changes to the songs too. (I forget if the American version I first read - which was a little older than the copy I now own, too - was "Indians" or "soldier boys", but apparently we never had the original title.)

tl;dr: at a quick glance at Wikipedia, it's complicated, cause there were actually similarly very racist "Indian" versions of the song at the exact same time in the 1800s, but it does seem that in modern times "soldier boys" is indeed now also used for the song separate from the book

So I'm not sure if the current "soldier boy" lyrics in the book match any current version of the actual song (certainly the version of "Indian" I heard outside of it was just counting vs listing deaths), but I guess that choice does reflect how the song itself has been edited/updated too, interestingly enough?

 

[Boiled Goose]

I seen some conversation in a few forums that claim they are Native and say they're not offend by this. This happen a few times with the whole Mario wearing Mexican clothing. Assuming that they are Native why is it that their not offend by how their nationality is shown?

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The Mario Mexican thing was completely different.
There was nothing problematic about that depiction.

In this case, it's the original game that's clearly problematic.

 

[Deleted member 4093]

How the hell am I selfish when I actually *shock* agree with its removal? Just because I think it looks cool, doesn't mean I'm trying to justify jack, doesn't mean I'm calling Native Americans savages or am using it in a way to get some decent sleep. It fits with the theme of the character taking the form of various G&W designs and I quite like that. And it's a shame that it has such a history associated with it. But once again, just for you, I understand the problem and agree with its removal.


I've already stated that I'd be more than interested in hearing from Native Americans about how they see the animation. Outside of a handful of tweets claiming they are (but that's Twitter, so take that as you will), I don't think we've seen many others chime in their opinion on the matter, who I do want to hear more from.

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Selfish from the fact alone you were disappointed. You would think one would have understanding to not be disappointed if they agree its important for its removal. Like, whatever you are saying is just one big contradiction.

Regarding your second statement, you dont need to question the motive behind requesting removal with your own verifiable Native Americans. Thats another outlandish thing to say what the hell??

 

[L Thammy]

Another thing to consider about the Mario as a stereotype versus Native American costume stereotype argument is the culture's own role in the propagation. Some aspects of culture are sold as imports, they are used to appeal to tourism, or they're simply part of a long history that is promoted as a point of pride. A big part of the reason Italians are associated with food is because Italy has a fantastic history of cuisine; it's relatively easy to make and tastes good, which is why its popularity has spread globally. A major part of Italian tourism's appeal is that you can go to Italy and eat real Italian food.

Like, the sombrero is just a hat that was developed to meet the practical demands of the environment, and it became iconic. The feather headdress that was worn by members of some Native American tribes is similarly iconic, but it had ceremonial role and wasn't something that just anyone was supposed to wear.

 

[AztecComplex]

Thank gosh. Awful that it got paraded around on that stream to begin with

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I mean, it's a good thing they removed it but I wouldn't call it "parading it around". I didn't know about it until I read about it here.

 

[Łazy]

Mod Edit: Link removed.

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

 

[SolidSnakex]

https://youtu.be/TWAL2a-mEg8?t=125
I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything tha happenned to native americans, trust me.

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Fair warning to people, it's a ReviewTechUSA video.

 

[Łazy]

Fair warning to people, it's a ReviewTechUSA video.

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Is he something supposed to be negative ?
I'm not following so much of him but I saw a few videos who were always quite accurate.

 

[Mr. Fantastic]

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

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That is incredibly condescending and dripping with privilege.

 

[Łazy]

That is incredibly condescending and dripping with privilege.

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I don't think so.
It's just that many games feature many elements that "could" look as offensive if not MUCH MORE and nobody talk about it.

So it seems a bit random. Not the topic itself (native american) but the degree.
But I don't know the guy enough to say if he's what you say he looks to be here.

 

[ShyMel]

I don't think so.
It's just that many games feature many elements that "could" look as offensive if not MUCH MORE and nobody talk about it.

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Do you have examples of the games you are referencing?

 

[Deleted member 2171]

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

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Far right wing youtuber mad that racist thing was taken out of game?

Say it ain't so

 

[Easy_D]

Far right wing youtuber mad that racist thing was taken out of game?

Say it ain't so

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Not the same dude. He's absolutely an ass, but these are two different people

 

[Łazy]

Do you have examples of the games you are referencing?

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On a specific topic ?
I don't think I even need an example when you can see sexism or characters depicting atrocious wars and more in many ways in so many games.

Except if I missed something, here it was just a few frames or an attack showing something that can be interpreted as an indiant with a stick o fire am I right ?

But I saw the story about the older game where it's about a fort being under attack.

Did Nintendo want to pass a message with it by then ? If not, it's a background like many other games whether it's about WW, Ethnics, genres or whatever.

I think there's a clear difference between this game and watch attacks and the Recent tweets from gog for example.

Or did I miss an element ?
Again, I'm really touched by tragedies but it feels like something's off here.

 

[Adulfzen]

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

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It's basically a white dude telling a minority to get a thick skin, don't really see how that's a good argument.

 

[Deleted member 2171]

Not the same dude. He's absolutely an ass, but these are two different people

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Meant to link the bottom blurb about the guy.

 

[Łazy]

It's basically a white dude telling a minority to get a thick skin, don't really see how that's a good argument.

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That's not the main point at all.
It's how atrocities and more minor (but still big) problems are depicted without care everywhere (games especially) and in a much worse way that this game and watch quick animation.

"Thoughen up" is not what I would agree the most with. That's a person to person thing.

 

[NateDrake]

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

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Who the fuck is he to dictate when someone can or cannot be offended by something? He's not offended by it because it has no direct impact on him, his culture, or heritage; but someone does feel hurt by it, spoke out on it, and Nintendo removed it. That's the right thing. To try to make an argument of "you have to be young" is ignorant. The opinion displayed in the video is one of ignorance.

 

[Berordn]

That's not the main point at all.
It's how atrocities and more minor (but still big) problems are depicted without care everywhere (games especially) and in a much worse way that this game and watch quick animation.

"Thoughen up" is not what I would agree the most with. That's a person to person thing.

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So the argument is that there are worse examples, so nobody should care about this one?

Just because people are offended by this doesn't mean they aren't also offended by other, worse depictions. They all stem from the same poor depictions of their culture.

 

[Aprikurt]

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

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What an utter blowhard. Exploiting this to have a vague rant about how "nobody's ever happy". Maybe so. Maybe you can't win.

This is about a caricature ass portrayal of Native Americans burning shit down and being portrayed as the irritating invading enemy though, and indirectly paying homage to a racist depiction. Alongside Pikachu and Kirby. It needed to go. And thank god it did.

 

[Dyle]

That's not the main point at all.
It's how atrocities and more minor (but still big problems) are depicted without care everywhere and in a much worse way that this game and watch quick animation.

"Thoughen up" is not what I would agree the most with. That's a person to person thing.

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That argument is straight up whataboutism. It's essentially saying, what's the point in fixing small problems when there are bigger problems? This small change doesn't cost anything, it doesn't hurt anything, all it does is changes one animation in one game that some people will be offended by. There is zero reason not to do it and the dude's argument is among the most insidious forms of cynical, apathetic nihilism

Also he calls ERA Reset-Era instead of Resetera so he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about

 

[Imran]

Did Nintendo want to pass a message with it by then ?

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Nintendo removed it, which should tell you what they think.

 

[Łazy]

So the argument is that there are worse examples, so nobody should care about this one?

Just because people are offended by this doesn't mean they aren't also offended by other, worse depictions.

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No. It might not even be one.
And yes. Care about real issues before going for random barely visible things that never were intended to mean any harm

It's unfortunately logical.
But I'm don't want to impose what I think would be more logical nor harm anyone. I don't think people focus on the right thing (this video included).

It's not about being offended or not but by what. 0.0001 degree is hotter than 0, but is it hot ?

Well. Feel free to disregard what I said. I don't want to offend anyone.

 

[Imran]

No. It might not even be one.
And yes. Care about real issues before going for random barely visible things that never were intended to mean any harm

It's unfortunately logical.
But I'm don't want to impose what I think would be more logical nor harm anyone. I don't think people focus on the right thing (this video included).

It's not about being offended or not but by what. 0.0001 degree is hotter than 0, but is it hot ?

Well. Feel free to disregard what I said. I don't want to offend anyone.

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Do you have a list of things that should be cared about in the right order

Like, is it retroactive? Should we have have prevented women's suffrage until segregation was handled

 

[Łazy]

Nintendo removed it, which should tell you what they think.

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They think it's easier to sell somethig with 0 elements people regard at a specific moment as racist, or any other difficult matter.

Or was Ninendo really intending somesomethin that bad with the original game and watch game ?

I sure hope not.

 

[Imran]

They think it's easier to sell somethig with 0 elements people regard at a specific moment as racist, or any other difficult matter.

Or was Ninendo really intending somesomethin that bad with the original game and watch game ?

I sure hope not.

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They removed it in the Game & Watch Gallery on GBA, too, because they recognized why it was bad. They stated it was bad in the PR and does not reflect their values.

Are you arguing that they secretly wish it was still in and are quietly seething that people care about this thing, and if so what is that based on other than your belief that this shouldn't be a big deal

 

[Alexhex]

That techreview video is fucking sad and it's insane that it even showed up here

 

[Łazy]

Do you have a list of things that should be cared about in the right order

Like, is it retroactive? Should we have have prevented women's suffrage until segregation was handled

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What ??
Way to deform what I say. I'm talking about degrees in the same problems not saying thisproblem is bigger than this one.

Of course it's degrees in the same domain.

 

[Deleted member 2171]

They think it's easier to sell somethig with 0 elements people regard at a specific moment as racist, or any other difficult matter.

Or was Ninendo really intending somesomethin that bad with the original game and watch game ?

I sure hope not.

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They were ignorant the first time. Nintendo already fixed it in a Game and Watch Collection already by getting rid of the feather, in the 2000s/aughts. This incident was caused by a new generation of devs being ignorant and forgetting to check that Nintendo had officially changed it between release and now. Nintendo apologized and are removing it.

So we're at the part of the cycle where the right wing grifters are all gonna get their piece in over something the community and Nintendo worked out with each other.

And even if Nintendo didn't mean to be racist back in the original game, this is also a good example of how racism institutionalizes itself into society because people start being carriers for it via basically repeating what they've grown up around or seen. In this case, Western movies which used to be super popular, super inaccurate, and super racist.

 

[Imran]

What ??
Way to deform what I say. I'm talking about degrees in the same problems not saying thisproblem is bigger than this one.

Of course it's degrees in the same domain.

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What are some examples of things that need to be handled before you can move down the list, then? You're talking purely in concepts and keeping it vague enough so you don't have to explain how this works in practicality. If someone doesn't like this, is their sole recourse to work on bigger things until they work their way down?

 

[Łazy]

What are some examples of things that need to be handled before you can move down the list, then? You're talking purely in concepts and keeping it vague enough so you don't have to explain how this works in practicality. If someone doesn't like this, is their sole recourse to work on bigger things until they work their way down?

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Because it seems obvious enough to not need examples. But fair enough, it's not like I'm annoyed at it being removed.

 

[Dyle]

What ??
Way to deform what I say. I'm talking about degrees in the same problems not saying thisproblem is bigger than this one.

Of course it's degrees in the same domain.

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So if there are degrees of offensiveness for a problem, why would it be wrong to fix a minor problem? If harmful stereotypes of Native Americans is a problem, with the various pro sports teams being a high priority example and this being a low priority one, what is lost by solving this one first? All it took was a thread here and a couple people including some journalists tweeting at Nintendo. It didn't take much time, it didn't take any money, it didn't cost anything to ask Nintendo to do this. What could have possibly have been lost by asking for this? If the priorities are based on the net harm caused by an example of these stereotypes, doesn't it make sense to focus on getting rid of the small ones first, which can be done with few resources, before tackling the big ones that will require much larger, concentrated efforts to stop? It even presents an example for the other bigger companies with bigger problems to follow and shows that this approach can work, thus making it easier to garner support for the higher priority, higher difficulty targets in the future

By going after small problems when you can you don't lose anything and actually gain a lot in the pursuit of taking down larger problems

 

[ShyMel]

On a specific topic ?
I don't think I even need an example when you can see sexism or characters depicting atrocious wars and more in many ways in so many games.

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Women have been discussing how our sex is treated in games for awhile. People have criticized Call of Duty and similar games for glorifying the military. The Division has gotten flack for how some of the basic enemies were deemed bad just for looting when your character does the same thing. The Last of Us Part Two is not out yet and its level of violence has been written about. People are discussing sexual and violent themes in game, including on this very site.

While Nintendo did not set out to offend people with the Native American stereotype in Ultimate. Intent is not all that matters though and frankly, it matters very little.

 

[-shadow-]

Also he calls ERA Reset-Era instead of Resetera so he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about

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I've been doing it wrong for over a year?! :(

 

[Mazinger]

I can't really imagine how you would portray a Native American otherwise using the limited color palette of the Game & Watch. Short of shirking the entire concept of the game itself anyways (even if you'd reverse it to Indians vs. Cowboys), though that's kind of throwing the bathwater out with the baby.

 

[Łazy]

So if there are degrees of offensiveness for a problem, why would it be wrong to fix a minor problem? If harmful stereotypes of Native Americans is a problem, with the various pro sports teams being a high priority example and this being a low priority one, what is lost by solving this one first? All it took was a thread here and a couple people including some journalists tweeting at Nintendo. It didn't take much time, it didn't take any money, it didn't cost anything to ask Nintendo to do this. What could have possibly have been lost by asking for this? If the priorities are based on the net harm caused by an example of these stereotypes, doesn't it make sense to focus on getting rid of the small ones first, which can be done with few resources, before tackling the big ones that will require much larger, concentrated efforts to stop? It even presents an example for the other bigger companies with bigger problems to follow and shows that this approach can work, thus making it easier to garner support for the higher priority, higher difficulty targets in the future

By going after small problems when you can you don't lose anything and actually gain a lot in the pursuit of taking down larger problems

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But why are so many native americans ok with it ?
Doesn't it feels even more minor than minor ?
Or are they in the wrong because of reasons ?

 

[Berordn]

But why are so many native americans ok with it ?
Doesn't it feels even more minor than minor ?
Or are they in the wrong because of reasons ?

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There is no monolithic entity that tells people what they should or should not be offended by. The original depiction this was based off of was not one done in representing the culture in good faith, and a number of people have spoken out about it. The original context was problematic enough that it was changed in a direct re-release.

Nobody is wrong to not care about this, but it is wrong to act like anyone else shouldn't either since even the publisher agrees.

 

[Deleted member 1086]

I don't see why Nintendo removing this from the game is a problem when they've already removed it from a GBA game 15 years ago, with no controversy. Unless you mean to tell me the SJWs were ruining video games 15 years ago too.

 

[Marossi]

But why are so many native americans ok with it ?
Doesn't it feels even more minor than minor ?
Or are they in the wrong because of reasons ?

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So you are telling me that we should ignore native americans that feel offended by it because there are other native americans who are ok with it?

 

[Dyle]

I've been doing it wrong for over a year?! :(

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I mean it's kind of a gif vs jif situation, so neither is really wrong but we all know that only one of them is right

But why are so many native americans ok with it ?
Doesn't it feels even more minor than minor ?
Or are they in the wrong because of reasons ?

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That's fine, people can look at the situation and make their own judgment. These kinds of arguments come down to three core sticking points,

1. Are the use of social stereotypes an effective or interesting way of distinguishing characters?
2. Are social stereotypes inherently offensive because they use distinct genetic traits or social habits as points to be caricatured and make it harder to see people who demonstrate those characteristics as less human, less individual and capable of agency?
3. Are the stereotypes in question offensive?

You can look at this particular situation and say that this particular situation is not offensive, that stereotypes aren't inherently bad, and that they can be used in an effective way where they add to the work. But not everyone will think that way and evidently enough people thought that some part of this situation was bad enough to justify complaining about it to Nintendo and Nintendo saw there was enough demand for it to be removed that it would be in their best interest to listen to them, as they had in other rereleases of this particular game. If we only listen to people who aren't offended by something than the people who are offended by it will be ignored, and vice versa. When presented with a situation like this a company has to determine which decision will make the most people happy and result in the best product and here Nintendo looked at their options and determined that it would be best to not anger those who were offended than those who were not offended. I guess you can be upset about that, but like you say, there are much more important issues to be upset about and if you're genuinely upset about the removal of this as much as the use of slurs as a names for pro sports teams, then you have some very odd priorities, to say the least

 

[Łazy]

I mean it's kind of a gif vs jif situation, so neither is really wrong but we all know that only one of them is right


That's fine, people can look at the situation and make their own judgment. These kinds of arguments come down to three core sticking points,

1. Are the use of social stereotypes an effective or interesting way of distinguishing characters?
2. Are social stereotypes inherently offensive because they use distinct genetic traits or social habits as points to be caricatured and make it harder to see people who demonstrate those characteristics as less human, less individual and capable of agency?
3. Are the stereotypes in question offensive?

You can look at this particular situation and say that this particular situation is not offensive, that stereotypes aren't inherently bad, and that they can be used in an effective way where they add to the work. But not everyone will think that way and evidently enough people thought that some part of this situation was bad enough to justify complaining about it to Nintendo and Nintendo saw there was enough demand for it to be removed that it would be in their best interest to listen to them, as they had in other rereleases of this particular game. If we only listen to people who aren't offended by something than the people who are offended by it will be ignored, and vice versa. When presented with a situation like this a company has to determine which decision will make the most people happy and result in the best product and here Nintendo looked at their options and determined that it would be best to not anger those who were offended than those who were not offended. I guess you can be upset about that, but like you say, there are much more important issues to be upset about and if you're genuinely upset about the removal of this as much as the use of slurs as a names for pro sports teams, then you have some very odd priorities, to say the least

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Hmm I'm most certainly not upset at that removal though.
I don't even care one bit about game and watch.

So you are telling me that we should ignore native americans that feel offended by it because there are other native americans who are ok with it?

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I'm not telling "you". And it's not that black or white. It's more about the animation itself.

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere because the focus is always turning around and we don't have all the keys to the equation.
Nintendo can say and do what they want but what was the truth by then.

And are all the offending elements in games supposed to be removed if someone ask for it ?
Because there are certainly millions of things I'd love to see disappear from games or any other media but would be laughed at by many people.
And depending on who takes a specific issue at hand (and who is the oriin of the problem) it'll be or not considered seriously.

 

[Marossi]

And are all the offending elements in games supposed to be removed if someone ask for it ?
Because there are certainly millions of things I'd love to see disappear from games or any other media but would be laughed at by many people.
And depending on who takes a specific issue at hand (and who is the oriin of the problem) it'll be or not considered seriously.

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Wow. I'm honestly baffled by this. What point are you even trying to make? That we shouldn't remove something that's considered offensive and racist with historical associations of negative stereotypes?

There's no grey area here, you're trying to put forward "we don't have all the keys to the equation". It's simple, you either leave a racist caricature in your game or you don't, it's simple as that.

Also for the bolded line, what the fuck? This is pure whataboutism, the target of these elements has been a minority for forever that has to deal with blatant racism every single day, and you still trying to put forward "but what about X and Y" well guess what, you may provide sexist or other racists examples that are prevalent in game, and they are not fine by any standard, but any step that's taken to help the cause is already a good step, such as this one.

 

[Deleted member 426]

Well, good work everyone :)

I'm impressed with both Nintendo and the people that called this out!

 

[L Thammy]

This change is over and done with. If your actual concern was that people should be focusing on the big things instead of the small things, you wouldn't be complaining about this now, because you're dragging one of the small things up from the grave to do so. Continuing this topic would be a waste of your time. The only reason you would bring this up after the fact is if the change itself upsets you.

I do like the juxtaposition of this argument coming from someone with USA in their channel name though. I don't mean that as a slight against Americans in general, I mean that in the cowboys and indians scenario of Fire Attack, where would the USA be?

 

[MrSaturn99]

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

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"PC Police"? Give me a break. The breakdowns here already prove I'm not missing anything.

This change is over and done with. If your actual concern was that people should be focusing on the big things instead of the small things, you wouldn't be complaining about this now, because you're dragging one of the small things up from the grave to do so. Continuing this topic would be a waste of your time. The only reason you would bring this up after the fact is if the change itself upsets you.

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Seriously, the irony is laughable.

 

[Deleted member 176]

And are all the offending elements in games supposed to be removed if someone ask for it ?
Because there are certainly millions of things I'd love to see disappear from games or any other media but would be laughed at by many people.

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like what

 

[Punchline]

Yikes at that reviewtechusa video

 

[HMS_Pinafore]

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

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WHAAA WHAAA, WHY ARE THE SJWS SO MEAN!!!!! There, I summarised the video (and the user posting it) so you don't have to watch it.

 

[J75]

I agree with him.

And I'm absolutely revolted by anything that happenned to native americans, trust me.

Sometimes internet is drawing the line a bit too far. And the opposite also exists. Sad.

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This is the same racist jackass that got into some drama for scamming a black man from his 200 dollars over some PC hardware fiaso. Lets not give this idiot any exposure in here please.

 

[Garlador]

I don't speak for all Native Americans...

... but I'm happy Nintendo is changing it. I appreciate that.