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L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
51,790
Ridley is more than doable. Shitty mods are not an indication of how this could be accomplished (I say that even with there being pretty decent Ridley mods). He would almost be the ultimate "out of the box" fighter to me thanks to his size and the history surrounding his inclusion. But to pretend as if Sakurai couldn't pull it off is outrageous to me.

Sakurai having talent and experience doesn't mean that implementation issues magically disappear for him, though. I think it's entirely possible that he might not consider the problem to be worth the effort of solving, or that he hasn't come up with any solutions yet that meet his quality standards.

Having said that, I also believe that Sakurai's spent a lot of time thinking about a new Metroid rep. Ridley and Meta Ridley both appeared as Subspace Emissary bosses. Ridley appeared as a stage boss. Dark Samus appeared as an assist trophy. Each one of these have multiple attacks, which I suspect might have at been drawn from ideas Sakurai might have had for their moves as playable fighters. Each Ridley boss has over half a dozen moves, while Dark Samus has three. A playable character has around thirty moves, so I think you've got around a playable character's worth of animations between the lot of them, at least.

Even if I'm wrong about their moves being leftover ideas from considered playable implementations, Ridley's got a pretty unusual presence in Smash already. Half of the bosses in Brawl were Smash originals; very few series had a boss. Yet Metroid was the only series to get two bosses, both of which were forms of Ridley. If Meta Ridley reused assets from Ridley maybe that would explain it, but I don't even think they shared attacks between them, at the least. Mario and Pokemon had only had one boss each, Zelda and Donkey Kong had none. He's also the only boss introduced in Subspace Emissary to reappear in 4... except he doesn't really reappear, because they just made him from scratch again.

I don't have any inside information so I can't say whether he's playable or not, but I think there has been noticable effort to include Ridley in a big way in both Brawl and 4. I feel that it's likely that a similar effort with exist in Smash Switch. Even if they start with Smash 4 as a base, I don't think they're going to be satisfied with just porting over his Pyrosphere appearance and calling it a day.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
51,790
To paraphrase my last post:

Imagine Sakurai sitting around the tub, thinking about how to include Ridley in Smash as he does every evening. Then suddenly, he does it. He cracks the Ridley code. Overcome with joy, he rushes out the door without even thinking to cover himself in a towel, and screams "eureka" (meaning "I have found it" in Japanese) as he runs nude through the street.
 

GiantBreadbug

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,992
Sakurai having talent and experience doesn't mean that implementation issues magically disappear for him, though. I think it's entirely possible that he might not consider the problem to be worth the effort of solving, or that he hasn't come up with any solutions yet that meet his quality standards.

Having said that, I also believe that Sakurai's spent a lot of time thinking about a new Metroid rep. Ridley and Meta Ridley both appeared as Subspace Emissary bosses. Ridley appeared as a stage boss. Dark Samus appeared as an assist trophy. Each one of these have multiple attacks, which I suspect might have at been drawn from ideas Sakurai might have had for their moves as playable fighters. Each Ridley boss has over half a dozen moves, while Dark Samus has three. A playable character has around thirty moves, so I think you've got around a playable character's worth of animations between the lot of them, at least.

Even if I'm wrong about their moves being leftover ideas from considered playable implementations, Ridley's got a pretty unusual presence in Smash already. Half of the bosses in Brawl were Smash originals; very few series had a boss. Yet Metroid was the only series to get two bosses, both of which were forms of Ridley. If Meta Ridley reused assets from Ridley maybe that would explain it, but I don't even think they shared attacks between them, at the least. Mario and Pokemon had only had one boss each, Zelda and Donkey Kong had none. He's also the only boss introduced in Subspace Emissary to reappear in 4... except he doesn't really reappear, because they just made him from scratch again.

I don't have any inside information so I can't say whether he's playable or not, but I think there has been noticable effort to include Ridley in a big way in both Brawl and 4. I feel that it's likely that a similar effort with exist in Smash Switch. Even if they start with Smash 4 as a base, I don't think they're going to be satisfied with just porting over his Pyrosphere appearance and calling it a day.

This is more or less how I feel, and I couple it with the fact that Sakurai has been more and more willing to cross "traditional" boundaries with characters.

Basically, I can certainly forsee Ridley being realized as a huge (pun intended) fanservice effort in these days when such things are becoming a tad more scarce, even if it means incorporating a play style that breaks traditional conventions for Smash. People like to cite shitty mods for reasons he can't appear, but I've seen more than enough mods that have convinced me that Sakurai could do it perfectly.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
51,790
I'd call him Metroid's Darth Vader. He isn't the main antagonist, but is easily the most memorable villain with a more personal relationship to the hero than the actual villain.

If Ridley ever speaks in the games, it should be a cutscene of him finding out that he's been rebuilt as Meta Ridley and screaming "NO" for an ungodly length of time.
 

J-Tier

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
Southern California
darth_vader_vs_son_goku_by_curi222-d34uj8i.jpg

This deviantart perfectly imagines my dream scenario for smash
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
Ridley is more than doable. Shitty mods are not an indication of how this could be accomplished (I say that even with there being pretty decent Ridley mods). He would almost be the ultimate "out of the box" fighter to me thanks to his size and the history surrounding his inclusion. But to pretend as if Sakurai couldn't pull it off is outrageous to me.

Consider these two things before saying Ridley is "more than doable:"

— On the ground, Ridley is like 3x longer than he is tall, to date the only character that's been more wide than tall is Ivysaur and that wasn't close to a 3x difference.

— Because Smash is such a vertical game, characters can't just be scaled up indefinitely like Abigale in SFV. Any character whose hurtbox would extend through the first-level platforms on battlefield and be vulnerable to attacks by players standing above them would be at a massive disadvantage. This would completely break down so much of the spacing that's important to this game. Currently, if you're beneath a player you have them at a disadvantage and you've caught them in vulnerable position, and that's a necessary peice of the Smash puzzle.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
I'd call him Metroid's Darth Vader. He isn't the main antagonist, but is easily the most memorable villain with a more personal relationship to the hero than the actual villain.

-ish.
The various forms of Ridley (Neo, clone, etc.) all aren't the actual Ridley and thus used as puppets. But the real Ridley is not just a second fiddle or mere lieutenant. The leadership of the space pirates is very ambiguous, as there are 3 leadership structures that have been brought up across the series (Mother Brain is the leader, Ridley is the leader, High Command are the leader). Ridley is possibly a member or maybe even the chairman of High Command, as in the manga, he is referred to as the actual leader of the pirates. Mother Brain then takes over leadership during the events of Metroid/Zero Mission and Super Metroid, but especially during Zero Mission it seems like the relationship between Mother Brain and Ridley is more that they're allies/partners than Ridley being entirely subservient to Mother Brain, considering that the robot Ridley you fight as the true final boss of the game was built by Ridley to show how awesome he is (and also proves that he isn't just a brainless creature like lots of people seem to believe), and especially also considering that the space pirates brought him, not Mother Brain, back from the dead as a cyborg (Meta Ridley).
 
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OP
IntelliHeath

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,535
So what exactly needs to be submitted for this document, do we even know? Just the characters? Characters AND movesets? Stages? Modes?

Well, it's not design document but it's a proposal but it would cover some information that was mentioned in Design Document so I guess it might be sufficient enough for you. Hopefully!

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/04/english-smash4-project-proposal-slides/

I will throw in Nintendo 64 version as bonus.

Edited: from other post, If you like those, then you might like this one. Sakurai's presentation on Brawl characters. It's fantastic how he used the stickman to make most of the animations for the characters.
 
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GiantBreadbug

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,992
Consider these two things before saying Ridley is "more than doable:"

— On the ground, Ridley is like 3x longer than he is tall, to date the only character that's been more wide than tall is Ivysaur and that wasn't close to a 3x difference.

— Because Smash is such a vertical game, characters can't just be scaled up indefinitely like Abigale in SFV. Any character whose hurtbox would extend through the first-level platforms on battlefield and be vulnerable to attacks by players standing above them would be at a massive disadvantage. This would completely break down so much of the spacing that's important to this game. Currently, if you're beneath a player you have them at a disadvantage and you've caught them in vulnerable position, and that's a necessary peice of the Smash puzzle.

I'm considering the fact that other characters have been scaled up/down in Smash with zero problem, as well as the fact that Sakurai has taken parameters previously thought unworkable for Smash and turned them on their heads.

Also I don't think your analysis applies to even a very basic application of Ridley considering balances to the character that could be made for hitstun/flinching (or resistances thereto) in exchange for other offensive capabilities. By all accounts the character would be a tank that has abnormally high offensive capabilities while being incredibly vulnerable to damage (and eventually knockback) due to his size.
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,440

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
I like how so many people here are certain Sakurai talks out of his ass about Ridley being too big when he more than likely has internal evidence and experience to suggest he's not wrong.
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,440
I like how so many people here are certain Sakurai talks out of his ass about Ridley being too big when he more than likely has internal evidence and experience to suggest he's not wrong.

I feel like Ridley is a hard case that Smash fans don't give Sakurai enough credit for, since I'm sure this character has been given considerable thought many times.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
I'm considering the fact that other characters have been scaled up/down in Smash with zero problem, as well as the fact that Sakurai has taken parameters previously thought unworkable for Smash and turned them on their heads.

Also I don't think your analysis applies to even a very basic application of Ridley considering balances to the character that could be made for hitstun/flinching (or resistances thereto) in exchange for other offensive capabilities. By all accounts the character would be a tank that has abnormally high offensive capabilities while being incredibly vulnerable to damage (and eventually knockback) due to his size.
Characters have been scaled yes, but they haven't been completely redesigned to make their proportions work. Olimar and Bowser were already humanoid, as in standing upright with two arms and two legs. Ridley would need to be either scaled way down until he was as tall as medium-sized dog in order to bring his width into line, or totally redesigned to make him more humanoid which I don't see happening,
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
61,401
I like how so many people here are certain Sakurai talks out of his ass about Ridley being too big when he more than likely has internal evidence and experience to suggest he's not wrong.
But he never said he was too big.

He said inorder to make ridley playable, he would have to make him "inaccurate" to the games. Even though the stage boss ridley isn't accurate at all, and a ton of playable characters aren't accurate.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
It's not so difficult to scale Ridley down to the point that he fits onto a stage and with the other cast members.
This is a Smash 4 mod, so obviously the animation quality is not comparable to a professional animation/rigging team:


The main issue I see with Ridley's size is that the tail is so freakishly big.
 

J-Tier

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
Southern California
But he never said he was too big.

He said inorder to make ridley playable, he would have to make him "inaccurate" to the games. Even though the stage boss ridley isn't accurate at all, and a ton of playable characters aren't accurate.
Exactly. It's not like there aren't relative size issues already present in the roster. Pikachu and Jigglypuff are huge compared to Lucario or Charizard. Olimar is incredibly huge compared to everyday items. Bowser's size changes in every game he's in. Kirby is huge relative to Dedede. I'm sure there's more. The Ridley is too big is more of a meme than a legitimate reason.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
It's not so difficult to scale Ridley down to the point that he fits onto a stage and with the other cast members.
This is a Smash 4 mod, so obviously the animation quality is not comparable to a professional animation/rigging team:


The main issue I see with Ridley's size is that the tail is so freakishly long.

Look at how big he is though. Those wings stick up so high they look like they'd poke through Battlefield's platforms.

This is exactly what I was talking about with mods designed for 1v1 and not thinking about the 4-player frenzy the games are designed for.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
61,401
It's not so difficult to scale Ridley down to the point that he fits onto a stage and with the other cast members.
This is a Smash 4 mod, so obviously the animation quality is not comparable to a professional animation/rigging team:


The main issue I see with Ridley's size is that the tail is so freakishly big.

Then make tail slightly smaller and have its idle animation be pointing up.
 

Donizetty

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
797
Mexico
But he never said he was too big.

He said inorder to make ridley playable, he would have to make him "inaccurate" to the games. Even though the stage boss ridley isn't accurate at all, and a ton of playable characters aren't accurate.
Like Olimar?

He should be so small with a lot of pikmins working for him, but instead he is medium tall and only has 5 or 3 pikmins
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
51,790
Just put another copy of Marth in, colour him purple and call him Ridley. It'll llook a little of and be a tad inaccurate but who cares.
 

Forkball

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,963
Exactly. It's not like there aren't relative size issues already present in the roster. Pikachu and Jigglypuff are huge compared to Lucario or Charizard. Olimar is incredibly huge compared to everyday items. Bowser's size changes in every game he's in. Kirby is huge relative to Dedede. I'm sure there's more. The Ridley is too big is more of a meme than a legitimate reason.
His wings and tail stretch out too far. You can shrink him down all you want, but his shape will always be awkward. No one complains that Kirby is technically bigger than he is in the Kirby games or that Bowser is too small. Everyone understands that their size is relative to the game.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Look at how big he is though. Those wings stick up so high they look like they'd poke through Battlefield's platforms.

This is exactly what I was talking about with mods designed for 1v1 and not thinking about the 4-player frenzy the games are designed for.

So? Ganondorf's head pokes through platforms on Battlefield. Parts of Bowser's body does, as well (if he's upright).
This is the same mod:
vIkBWTB.png


This model is smaller than Bowser.
 

J-Tier

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
Southern California
His wings and tail stretch out too far. You can shrink him down all you want, but his shape will always be awkward. No one complains that Kirby is technically bigger than he is in the Kirby games or that Bowser is too small. Everyone understands that their size is relative to the game.
It's a game design challenge, which is their job. But size as a reason is bs. "It's too challenging to make it work", "it's not worth the effort"...that's more of an acceptable excuse to me.
 
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corasaur

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,990
Look at how big he is though. Those wings stick up so high they look like they'd poke through Battlefield's platforms.

This is exactly what I was talking about with mods designed for 1v1 and not thinking about the 4-player frenzy the games are designed for.

the biggest characters currently tend to benefit from 4-player chaos, though. putting ganon's foot through somebody's sternum is ten times easier in free-for-all chaos than 1v1. being slow with a huge hurtbox is a bigger handicap in tourney play where you're gonna be combo food for whatever speed demon is the top of the current meta.

no one's gonna camp on a platform in free-for-all trying to down-tilt the tips of ridley's wings.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
But he never said he was too big.

He said inorder to make ridley playable, he would have to make him "inaccurate" to the games. Even though the stage boss ridley isn't accurate at all, and a ton of playable characters aren't accurate.
Because in order to make him playable, they'd have to skew his proportions. It's not a matter of scaling up or down. He's a dragon-alien whose very shape makes him difficult to manage as a viable playable character.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
61,401
Because in order to make him playable, they'd have to skew his proportions. It's not a matter of scaling up or down. He's a dragon-alien whose very shape makes him difficult to manage as a viable playable character.
And no one who wants him playable cares if if they have to change his size a little bit. The only people who care never wanted him playable. As a metroid fan, his stage boss form is more annoying anyway, he becomes your pet if you hit him enough and somehow can just get a metal gloss called meta ridley. This is a series where you can beat up ganondorf with pacman...accuracy doesn't matter.
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,206
Man that Pokemon thread is a disaster. It's an amazing how one blurry picture posted on a random twitter account can make gullible people so insane. I'm glad the Smash community is smarter and more resilient to fake leaks.

Next Smash trailer possibly leaked:


What the fuck?! Who the hell wants Rick for Smash. And this looks exactly like Kirby Star Allies. Fucking lazy ass Sakurai! I'm done with Smash Bros.
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,473
making Ridley smaller to suit the game isn't remotely the same as making Olimar bigger to suit the game

it's more like making Olimar as tall as Rosalina
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,473
Pokemon sizes are pretty wildly inconsistent across the board, so it's never bothered me in Smash
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
And no one who wants him playable cares if if they have to change his size a little bit. The only people who care never wanted him playable. As a metroid fan, his stage boss form is more annoying anyway, he becomes your pet if you hit him enough and somehow can just get a metal gloss called meta ridley. This is a series where you can beat up ganondorf with pacman...accuracy doesn't matter.
Accuracy does matter, though. They're not going to make him playable if that requires skewing his proportions until he looks weird.
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,440
I imagine the closest thing to Ridley in a fighting game would be Firebrand in UMvC3 as far as shooting fire, flying and swooping, clawing at, and dragging opponents across the ground.

So Ridley would be like a massive version of that character with weird proportions and hitboxes, and a huge tail that he stabs people with. I can totally see him causing balance problems in Smash.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,103
I still think Ridley as a character is pretty boring and none of the mods I've seen have convinced me otherwise. He looks so stilted and boney in his movements.

He's better served as a boss.
 

RomanceDawn

Teacher of Superheroines
Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,206
Los Angeles
Consider these two things before saying Ridley is "more than doable:"

— On the ground, Ridley is like 3x longer than he is tall, to date the only character that's been more wide than tall is Ivysaur and that wasn't close to a 3x difference.

— Because Smash is such a vertical game, characters can't just be scaled up indefinitely like Abigale in SFV. Any character whose hurtbox would extend through the first-level platforms on battlefield and be vulnerable to attacks by players standing above them would be at a massive disadvantage. This would completely break down so much of the spacing that's important to this game. Currently, if you're beneath a player you have them at a disadvantage and you've caught them in vulnerable position, and that's a necessary peice of the Smash puzzle.

You gotta stop with your rules. Ganondorf's head clips into the lower Battle Field platforms. I can strike him as Donkey Kong with my ground slap if DK is up there and he is standing down there.

Beyond battle field there are stages with the even lower platforms, some that angle and tilt everywhere. Take Yoshi's Island Brawl stage that made it to 3DS. characters can stand almost anywhere under or above that platform and because they are taller than it they will get hit no matter what.

When people argue that parts of Ridley would clip through a platform, or his tail or wings would clip through something just completely ignore a ton of similar examples from other characters that are already present in the game.

Ridley doesn't stand up right. Like Donkey Kong he can be extremely hunched over or walk on all 4's. Ridley's wings don't have to be much bigger than Charizards no matter how big Ridley himself is because all of Ridley's 2D designs have smaller wings. Now here comes the BS explanation that the Metroid games are 2D so it blah blah blah limitations. Yeah well it doesn't change the fact that his wings are small in the 2D sprite based games and the official art reflects that.

The games as a whole can be designed with bigger and wider characters and still we can have stages where the likes of Bowser and DK have a hard time getting around. Playing as a DK and Bowser I've often thought parts of 75 meters, Electroplankton, Xenoblade stage and New Pork City had platforms that were way too small for them. It's a bit awkward when I'm forced into the tiny platforms but oh well it's just a small part for the game and sometimes it is kind of fun.

Ridley is possible the nay sayers are bootie heads.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
It's a game design challenge, which is their job. But size as a reason is bs. "It's too challenging to make it work", "it's not worth the effort"...that's more of an acceptable excuse to me.

The excuses sound same as how they couldn't make Phoniex Wright work in tatsunoko vs capcom...

then a few years later in a marvel crossover...
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,075
Squeeze Ridley down to Metroid size and I wouldn't care. Size is not a factor in why I want to play as a flying purple space pirate dragon.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
And no one who wants him playable cares if if they have to change his size a little bit. The only people who care never wanted him playable. As a metroid fan, his stage boss form is more annoying anyway, he becomes your pet if you hit him enough and somehow can just get a metal gloss called meta ridley. This is a series where you can beat up ganondorf with pacman...accuracy doesn't matter.

Metroid Prime and Zero Mission are two of my all time favorite games. I'd love more Metroid in these games, especially Ridley if Sakurai can somehow make him work in his true form.

But I do care how he looks in game. If the only way he works is to proportion him like Charizard, I'd rather they not and add Dark Samus or Sylux instead.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
As Gartooth said, I'm pretty certain that Sakurai is well aware of Ridley's popularity and certainly has been having heavy considerations about if and how to add him, given the fact he appears as 2 boss fights in Brawl and a quasi-character in Smash 4.
I don't expect Ridley to ever have a shot at being playable, as much as I want him, but if anyone can do it and make it look good in regards to the proportions, it's Sakurai.

People like to bring up the comparative size of him to Samus in the Metroid games, and that sizing him down or changing his proportions wouldn't fit with the in-universe sizes, but completely ignore that in Pokemon, Charizard is 1.7m, Mewtwo 2m and Lucario 1.2m, yet in Smash 4, Charizard is taller than Mewtwo, and Lucario almost as tall as Mewtwo. And that's not even considering that Pikachu and Jigglypuff are 0.4 and 0.5m respectively, and have been increased in size quite a bit.
So the whole "well making Ridley smaller comparatively to Samus wouldn't fit with the Metroid sizes!"-argument is standing on weak legs. The same goes for changing the proportions of the wings and the tail.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
26,772
Tbilisi, Georgia
In addition to reducing his size, you can make him even more compact by making him crouch by default.

As for the tail, have it semi-wrap around his body, like this
latest

Extending for actual attacks.
 
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