Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
I don't think this is a discussion about if there will be or not 0 interference, this is about the satellites causing little enough interference, in order for astronomers and other ground signal to keep doing their work. I don't see a scenario we're Starlink satellites stop these from working. Do you?
I was responding to someone denying legitimate and international scientific concerns about the industrialisation of space.

And so giving him an entry to a large amount of online documentation if he was interested by the problem that is larger than Starlink.

I wasn't asking him a closed question with a pre-chosen response while pretending being capable to answer it.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,724
I was responding to someone denying legitimate and international scientific concerns about the industrialisation of space.

And so giving him an entry to a large amount of online documentation if he was interested by the problem that is larger than Starlink.

I wasn't asking him a closed question with a pre-chosen response while pretending being capable to answer it.

Sure, there are legitimate worries from the astronomy community. My expectation out of all of this is that all of them will be able to work in parallel at a satisfactory level. The really cool solution would be to also have these satellites work as small telescopes. This is just the beginning of all of this, so things can evolve on a lot of different ways.
 

Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
Sure, there are legitimate worries from the astronomy community. My expectation out of all of this is that all of them will be able to work in parallel at a satisfactory level. The really cool solution would be to also have these satellites work as small telescopes. This is just the beginning of all of this, so things can evolve on a lot of different ways.
Ok. From the start my goal wasn't to derail the tread, just to give the upside down of that technological enthusiasm with external sources, than it's on people to follow or not. Here I have intervened again because of that previous quote. Don't act. 🚀
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,724
Ok. From the start my goal wasn't to derail the tread, just to give the upside down of that technological enthusiasm with external sources, than it's on people to follow or not. Here I have intervened again because of that previous quote. Don't act. 🚀

We are still talking about Starlink and the effects it might have. This is relevant to the thread. It's OK.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,987
México
I'm very interested in this service.

I live in Mexico, in a city that is border with Texas (the International Bridge is literally 10 minutes away from my house). Here in my country, we have several ISP, and they have fiber service in several areas with 100mbps+ speeds.

But also, there are tons of regions with very limited access. My house is one of those areas. My neighborhood has no utility poles (everything is underground) and no company in my city wants to offer internet with underground cables, so I rely on LTE service. It's unlimited, but with a 4mbps speed (and the annoying part is that utility poles with fiber are like 400 meters away from my house).

My concern is: will StarLink adjust their prices for each country? Because Internet here in my country is relatively cheaper than the USA. For example, 150mbps fiber is around $30 USD with Telmex.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,837
Chicago
if there was a way to back this initiative I would.

simply incredible shit that I hope wakes up other ISPs if it takes off.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,724
I'm very interested in this service.

I live in Mexico, in a city that is border with Texas (the International Bridge is literally 10 minutes away from my house). Here in my country, we have several ISP, and they have fiber service in several areas with 100mbps+ speeds.

But also, there are tons of regions with very limited access. My house is one of those areas. My neighborhood has no utility poles (everything is underground) and no company in my city wants to offer internet with underground cables, so I rely on LTE service. It's unlimited, but with a 4mbps speed (and the annoying part is that utility poles with fiber are like 400 meters away from my house).

My concern is: will StarLink adjust their prices for each country? Because Internet here in my country is relatively cheaper than the USA. For example, 150mbps fiber is around $30 USD with Telmex.

No information yet on specific prices per region. What we do know is that the service is designed to be affordable and accessible.

-Monthly cost:

Unknown, but the projected monthly Average Revenue Per User (ARPU) for the service stands at $60, based on the company's internal estimates for revenues and subscribers made in 2017.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,987
México
No information yet on specific prices per region. What we do know is that the service is designed to be affordable and accessible.

-Monthly cost:

Unknown, but the projected monthly Average Revenue Per User (ARPU) for the service stands at $60, based on the company's internal estimates for revenues and subscribers made in 2017.
Damn. I'm sure $60 USD is cheap in the USA, but in Mexico it would be the most expensive service by far.

I hope they find a way to adjust the prices for the region (kinda like Steam or Microsoft do with their stores).
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,724
Damn. I'm sure $60 USD is cheap in the USA, but in Mexico it would be the most expensive service by far.

I hope they find a way to adjust the prices for the region (kinda like Steam or Microsoft do with their stores).

Not really expensive if they give you 1Gbps.They might offer lower speeds for less money.

-Speed/Latency:

SpaceX has said that Starlink could provide gigabit speeds with latency as low as 20ms, putting it on par with terrestrial broadband. The system could halve communication times between London and Singapore, in part because light in a vacuum is 50 percent faster than light through glass, such as fiber optic, and also because fiber optic sometimes takes a less direct path. Starlink will use lasers to communicate with others in the array, forming a fast-moving global network.
 

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,597
With my girlfriend and I both working from home over VPN's our slow ass internet has really become an issue.

Can Starlink just fracking launch already? :(
 

LuigiMario

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,947
Good idea but like everything related to Elon Musk I will believe it when it is a purchasable and not some weird "presale/beta" thing.
 

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,597
Damnit, that's much longer than I expected.

Now, how can I get into that private beta?????
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,616
Austria
I remember satelite internet. It was (maybe still is?) a thing like 20 years ago here. It was only meant to be a fast downstream addition to your regular ISP, expensive as hell and did not work very good most of the time. In times with slow-ass internet it was a sight to behold tho, suddenly downloading with megabytes per seconds.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Unrelated to the service, but I watched the live stream of the launch and 30 minutes later the second stage flew almost directly over my house. Doesn't happen as most launches have a more northerly inclination.

Considering it takes me, at best, 14 hours to travel from my house to Florida I find that nuts!
 

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,220
Unrelated to the service, but I watched the live stream of the launch and 30 minutes later the second stage flew almost directly over my house. Doesn't happen as most launches have a more northerly inclination.

Considering it takes me, at best, 14 hours to travel from my house to Florida I find that nuts!
That's pretty damn cool. I assume you weren't able to snap a picture of it?
 

Alex3190

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,129
Ugh, Rocket League with Starlink is going to be so terrible during hurricane season.
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,502
So how does it work - anyone can just shoot 42 thousands satelites into space or do you need a permit? :P
 

XenIneX

Member
Oct 28, 2017
625
Yeah? Which demon did he make a deal with to make this happen?
They prefer to be called "politicians", and they'll support your pet project in return for campaign contributions. Luckily, they offer a bulk discount...

So how does it work - anyone can just shoot 42 thousands satelites into space or do you need a permit? :P
File a mass of paperwork equal to the mass of the satellites you wish to launch with the FCC. They'll get back to you in six-to-eighteen months to tell you that you failed to dot an "I" or cross a "T", but they won't tell you where. Comb through your filing to find the error, fix it, refile, and then wait another year, give or take, for your approval.
 

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,597
On topic, I'm surprised nothing has been announced around pricing yet if this is planned to start rolling out mid 2020.

No official pricing announced yet, but Musk has hinted at something like a $60-$80 per month for North America. He's stated he wants it to be cheaper than the majority of existing ISP plans today, so we'll see if that holds true.
 

Gashprex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,038
So how does it work - anyone can just shoot 42 thousands satelites into space or do you need a permit? :P

Do you know how expensive placing satellites in orbit is? The only reason SpaceX/Musk can do this is they have reusable rockets (that are first used for paying customers) - and even then, before any mass amounts of satellites can be placed in orbit the will need Starship to be operational.

There is literally no other company (other potentially Blue Origin who has never launched an orbital class rocket before) that can place this many satellites in orbit.

But yes, I'm sure if you had a feasible plan the FCC would consider your request for 50k satellites.
 

NoPiece

Member
Oct 28, 2017
304
the part where it's a product I can subscribe to and use?

It would be odd to invest in hundreds of satellites and not have a product. What else would they be up there for? I'd find it hard to believe they won't have a product that you can subscribe to and use. I don't know if it will be good, but it will exist.
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,817
SpaceX has again applied for a change in their Starlink constellation plan:

Specifically, SpaceX seeks to relocate 2,824 satellites that were previously authorized for operation at altitudes ranging from 1,100km to 1,330km to new altitudes ranging from 540km to 570km. Because of the increased atmospheric drag at this lower altitude, this relocation will significantly enhance space safety by ensuring that any orbital debris will quickly re-enter and demise in the atmosphere. And because of its closer proximity to consumers on Earth, this modification will allow SpaceX's system to provide low-latency broadband to unserved and underserved Americans that is on par with service previously only available in urban areas. Finally, this modification will improve service to customers—including Federal users—in otherwise impossible to reach polar areas.
arstechnica.com

SpaceX to offer Starlink public beta in six months, Musk says

SpaceX asks FCC to approve lower orbits to boost coverage, minimize space debris.

So, the current plan is:
move as much satellites to lower orbits
closed beta test soon
moderate coverage with ~800 satellites
good worldwide coverage with ~2000 satellites

Full operation target - 4,408 satellites in 500km+ orbits [down from the original 4,425] & 7,518 satellites in lower 335km to 346km orbits.
Long-term target if Starlink gets millions of users - additional 30k satellites
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,862
The Milky Way
SpaceX has again applied for a change in their Starlink constellation plan:

Specifically, SpaceX seeks to relocate 2,824 satellites that were previously authorized for operation at altitudes ranging from 1,100km to 1,330km to new altitudes ranging from 540km to 570km. Because of the increased atmospheric drag at this lower altitude, this relocation will significantly enhance space safety by ensuring that any orbital debris will quickly re-enter and demise in the atmosphere. And because of its closer proximity to consumers on Earth, this modification will allow SpaceX's system to provide low-latency broadband to unserved and underserved Americans that is on par with service previously only available in urban areas. Finally, this modification will improve service to customers—including Federal users—in otherwise impossible to reach polar areas.
arstechnica.com

SpaceX to offer Starlink public beta in six months, Musk says

SpaceX asks FCC to approve lower orbits to boost coverage, minimize space debris.

So, the current plan is:
move as much satellites to lower orbits
closed beta test soon
moderate coverage with ~800 satellites
good worldwide coverage with ~2000 satellites

Full operation target - 4,408 satellites in 500km+ orbits [down from the original 4,425] & 7,518 satellites in lower 335km to 346km orbits.
Long-term target if Starlink gets millions of users - additional 30k satellites
Out of interest, how exactly do they move all these satellites to the new altitudes?

Also why didn't they put them at this altitude in the first place?
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,724
SpaceX has again applied for a change in their Starlink constellation plan:

Specifically, SpaceX seeks to relocate 2,824 satellites that were previously authorized for operation at altitudes ranging from 1,100km to 1,330km to new altitudes ranging from 540km to 570km. Because of the increased atmospheric drag at this lower altitude, this relocation will significantly enhance space safety by ensuring that any orbital debris will quickly re-enter and demise in the atmosphere. And because of its closer proximity to consumers on Earth, this modification will allow SpaceX's system to provide low-latency broadband to unserved and underserved Americans that is on par with service previously only available in urban areas. Finally, this modification will improve service to customers—including Federal users—in otherwise impossible to reach polar areas.
arstechnica.com

SpaceX to offer Starlink public beta in six months, Musk says

SpaceX asks FCC to approve lower orbits to boost coverage, minimize space debris.

So, the current plan is:
move as much satellites to lower orbits
closed beta test soon
moderate coverage with ~800 satellites
good worldwide coverage with ~2000 satellites

Full operation target - 4,408 satellites in 500km+ orbits [down from the original 4,425] & 7,518 satellites in lower 335km to 346km orbits.
Long-term target if Starlink gets millions of users - additional 30k satellites

This is a very good news for online gaming and latency in general.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,724
Out of interest, how exactly do they move all these satellites to the new altitudes?

Also why didn't they put them at this altitude in the first place?

The satellites come equipped with krypton ion thrusters. They use electricity and krypton gas to generate an impulse, to maneuver in orbit, maintain altitude and to finally deorbit the satellites at the end of their life or when they stop working. They must be still working on ways to optimize the distribution of the satellies in order to get the best performance possible. The limitation with lower altitude satellites is that they have a smaller coverage. The farther away a satellite is the more coverage but the latency increases.


Examples of the coverage from a Medium Earth orbit (MEO) and a Low Earth orbit (LEO) Satellites.
Comparison-of-satellite-footprints-in-LEO-and-MEO.png


krypton ion thrusters
Starlink-hardware-mosaic-SpaceX-1-1024x409.jpg
 
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XenIneX

Member
Oct 28, 2017
625
Out of interest, how exactly do they move all these satellites to the new altitudes?

Also why didn't they put them at this altitude in the first place?
These are future plans. For now, they only have 400 satelites in ~500km orbit.
To expand:


SpaceX launched their first two prototype satellites a year and a half ago as a ride along with someone else's communications satellite. They intended to raise them from their deployment altitude of ~500km to ~1100km, but after doing some testing and number crunching, they decided that the lower altitude was actually beneficial. So, they shoveled paperwork at the FCC until they agreed to amend the original licensing, and the operational altitude for the initial Starlink constellation flights has been ~550km ever since.

Now, it looks like SpaceX has filed to change the operational altitude of the rest of the higher-altitude flights to the new, lower target. These satellites are meant to be launched into more-inclined orbits, in order to serve denizens of the higher/lower latitudes which the initial deployment can't serve. Alaskans, Canadians, Northern-Europeans, Siberians, and whatever you call people who think shivering in an Antarctic research station is a good time, rejoice!

To be clear: no Starlink satellites are physically relocating, because no Starlink satellites have ever flown above an altitude of 600km. In fact, this paperwork authorizing these change has all been filed and accepted long before the satellites in question have been/will ever be launched.

That said, the satellites in question would be capable of relocating to the new altitude, as that's what they were originally designed to do. (Unless the design was modified to reduce their propellant mass since the operational altitude was changed. *shrug*) They currently actually deploy to an elliptical injection orbit of ~210km x ~380km, which SpaceX then raises to ~550km using tiny, highly-efficient ion thrusters on each satellite.


There are a couple reasons that they don't just inject them directly into the operational orbit. The first is that they can cram a whole lot more satellites into a single flight to a lower orbit, and then use the more-efficient thrusters on the individual satellites to gradually move them to their target orbit.

Second, they can take advantage of weird gravitational effects at different altitudes to move, or "precess" satellites into different orbital planes, so they can split one launch into multiple orbits. I believe the technical term is "bullshit".

Third, they can do the initial checkouts of the satellites in their lower deployment altitude. That way, any satellites with unrecoverable problems will reenter the atmosphere on their own within a month or two and burn up. So will the small amount of deployment debris -- as will the second stage, which they can now burn to depletion, rather than having to reserve fuel for deorbiting.

A further advantage of the inherent quick deorbit is that you can design the satellite to lower reliability standards, which will easily knock orders of magnitude off the cost. It's what allows the massive paradigm shift from "let's make a handful of billion-dollar geosynchronous satellites" to "let's make thousands of $250k LEO satellites".
 
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DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,817
^ This is more for general SpaceX thread.

But when Starship starts flying, it will be able to send 400 starlink satellites in a one go. :)
 

XenIneX

Member
Oct 28, 2017
625
In more Starlink-related news...

The buzz is that the launch of the 8th flight of Starlink satellites (which was supposed to go up last night, then was pushed to tonight by a delayed Atlas 5 launch, then was pushed to tomorrow night by Tropical Depression Whassisname making a mess of the landing zone) is going to be pushed to June to avoid conflicting with the first manned launch of Crew Dragon.

Final word, however, has yet to come from SpaceX, so... *shrug*
 

shark97

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,327
Bad news, on a recent "Aviation week" podcast, (Aviation week Check Six podcast, Elon Musk interview, ~34 min mark). Musk said the biggest challenge with sat internet is the expense of the user terminals. He said something of the effect it would take years to get the price down. He also made some quip about "we've got a strategy where success is one of the possible outcomes". On the Starlink reddit someone is throwing around 8k-15k possible terminal costs (based on some other terminal that costs 30k). That may be a wild exaggeration, I dont know. Overall I got a bad vibe from it. That said, I dont understand why they're launching sats like there's no tomorrow if that's the case? Maybe US government interests/payment?

Podcast: Interview with SpaceX’s Elon Musk | Aviation Week Network

In an exclusive interview with Aviation Week Space Editor Irene Klotz, SpaceX CEO Elon Musk discusses the riskiest part of the upcoming NASA Commercial Crew Demo-2 launch, the need to further reduce launch costs and the prospects for the Starlink internet service project.

At this point I'm in highly skeptical/I'll believe it when I see it mode regards Starlink, while still trying to be optimistic. I guess I'll put more hopes back on 5g/Cellular stuff. At least I have the option to pay for good internet, many wanting starlink dont.
 

Bregor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,496
The military is interested in it:

arstechnica.com

SpaceX and US Army sign deal to test Starlink broadband for military use

Army will test Starlink performance before deciding whether to be a customer.

Other potential applications are for airplanes or ships, places where one connection could be expensive yet still very useful.

Wall street businesses could be interested if the latency is low enough. With a lot of trading being based on algorithms, saving a few microseconds can mean a significant business advantage.

There are several reasons they are in a hurry. First, the bandwidth rights have a requirement that they get a certain percentage of the constellation in orbit by a fixed date or they are lost. Second, SpaceX isn't the only company working on such a constellation - OneWeb was, and Amazon is looking at the same tech. Whomever is ahead in this field not only will get more potential funding, but also could become the standard before others come online.

It's a risky endeavor though - there have been quite a few bankruptcies by companies trying to set up new communication satellite constellations.
 
Apr 25, 2020
3,418
The military is interested in it:

arstechnica.com

SpaceX and US Army sign deal to test Starlink broadband for military use

Army will test Starlink performance before deciding whether to be a customer.

Other potential applications are for airplanes or ships, places where one connection could be expensive yet still very useful.

Wall street businesses could be interested if the latency is low enough. With a lot of trading being based on algorithms, saving a few microseconds can mean a significant business advantage.

There are several reasons they are in a hurry. First, the bandwidth rights have a requirement that they get a certain percentage of the constellation in orbit by a fixed date or they are lost. Second, SpaceX isn't the only company working on such a constellation - OneWeb was, and Amazon is looking at the same tech. Whomever is ahead in this field not only will get more potential funding, but also could become the standard before others come online.

It's a risky endeavor though - there have been quite a few bankruptcies by companies trying to set up new communication satellite constellations.

Welp, there you have it. It really is the future.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,911
Military is involved huh


Certainly lends credibility to the idea, I wonder what the execution would be like?
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,817
Starlink 8 is scheduled for a launch today, here's the stream.


SpaceX is targeting Wednesday June 3 at 9:25 p.m. EDT, 1:25 UTC on June 4, for its eighth launch of Starlink satellites. Falcon 9 will lift off from Space Launch Complex 40 (SLC-40) at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. A backup opportunity is available on Thursday, June 4 at 9:03 p.m. EDT, 1:03 UTC on June 5.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,724
Starlink 8 is scheduled for a launch today, here's the stream.


SpaceX is targeting Wednesday June 3 at 9:25 p.m. EDT, 1:25 UTC on June 4, for its eighth launch of Starlink satellites. Falcon 9 will lift off from Space Launch Complex 40 (SLC-40) at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. A backup opportunity is available on Thursday, June 4 at 9:03 p.m. EDT, 1:03 UTC on June 5.


In one minute.