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Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
I remember being in highschool and legitimately thinking I would never see a good star wars movie (aside from the OT).

I walked out of TFA and started crying (embarrassing, my wife teased me for a month). While TFA isn't in my top 3, it was such an improvement in quality over the PT and walking out it finally hit me that I would get to see great new star wars movies.

Uh, wow. You definitely care about Star Wars.

I don't watch these films like you do.

To me, they're popcorn films with pop-culture merit.

ROTS is the only one that actually tries (and fails) to be grander than a simple fairy tale.

It's really only the Jedi that really pique my interest and without them, it feels like any other space opera. That's my view.

It's why I'm absolutely uninterested in Solo and I watched Rogue One once (which I actually thought was saved by a good third act).
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
A lot of Force Powers get more spectacular and "meaty" when channelled using the Dark Side. Maybe Snoke's Force Projection has a shorter range but it's more detailed.

It all checks out: Snoke was actually on the same ship as Hux at the beginning of the movie, and that's how he could force drag him all across the room.


But if that's true, how does he Force Lighting Kylo later on in the throne room?


I need to think this over a bit more. Unless... there's a Bigger Snoke too?

Bro, Darth Vader can force choke people on different Space Ships as long as he has a visual of you
 

Deleted member 11039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,109
That was your original post.

You see no problem with posting that in response to hundreds of people dancing on screen, most of whom appear to be people of color? Two people side eye'd it immediately so there was clearly loaded phrasing, even if you didn't intend it that way.

You're saying it yourself. Those gifs are full of all sorts of people. Oscar Issac is front and center in one for crying out loud. You literally can't miss it.

Again, you haven't said what your interpretation was.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
I don't think Reven Wolf's comments is all that different from what people think about Star Wars in this thread. I teared up when I saw Yoda pop up or when Leia's message to Obi-Wan showed up and I haven't been a fan for my whole life like others have. To me Star Wars is more than dumb popcorn films, which is why The Last Jedi resonates with me so much. It attempts, and succeeds, to be more than just a blockbuster. It reaches emotional heights that I haven't gotten in a blockbuster since...ever?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Bro, Darth Vader can force choke people on different Space Ships as long as he has a visual of you

True. The Bigger Snoke theory isn't factually needed, but I'll keep it as backup if something doesn't check out.

Now that we know Snoke is actually the twin who survived Knights of the Fallen Empire, the question is: did Snoke actually die on the Supremacy?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I don't think Reven Wolf's comments is all that different from what people think about Star Wars in this thread. I teared up when I saw Yoda pop up or when Leia's message to Obi-Wan showed up and I haven't been a fan for my whole life like others have. To me Star Wars is more than dumb popcorn films, which is why The Last Jedi resonates with me so much. It attempts, and succeeds, to be more than just a blockbuster. It reaches emotional heights that I haven't gotten in a blockbuster since...ever?

Absolutely. I mean, as someone who criticizes the movie a lot, my main disappointment is a scene that, if you're not particularly invested in the character, is a perfectly shot giant action set piece. We're invested in this in a different way than, say, when we go see the latest Jurassic Park.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
You're saying it yourself. Those gifs are full of all sorts of people. Oscar Issac is front and center in one for crying out loud.

Again, you haven't said what your interpretation was.
I already told you what my interpretation was. That you were commenting on how white the dancing scene was when there's clearly a ton of diversity. Which rubs me the wrong way.

But clearly we are at fault for your poor phrasing. Right?
 

Deleted member 11039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,109
I already told you what my interpretation was. That you were commenting on how white the dancing scene was when there's clearly a ton of diversity.

And Oscar Isaac isn't even fucking white. His parents Are Guatemalan and Cuban. He identifies as Guatemalan-American.

I. Know.

That's what I'm saying. Obviously those aren't all white people. Like there's literally no way to think that.

And no you haven't said what you thought I meant. Just that you posted a gif full of diversity and saw the word white and... what?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I already told you what my interpretation was. That you were commenting on how white the dancing scene was when there's clearly a ton of diversity. Which rubs me the wrong way.

But clearly we are mistaken for your poor phrasing. Right?

Oh, if that was your interpretation I'm sorry but I agree that you've overreacted. "White people dancing" is a very old meme, and it was clear what Bragg meant. I thought you were taking offence at him picking on white people, and I was puzzled.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I. Know.

That's what I'm saying. Obviously those aren't all white people. Like there's literally no way to think that.

And no you haven't said what you thought I meant. Just that you posted a gif full of diversity and saw the word white and... what?
I misunderstood what you were saying about Oscar Isaac and edited my post.

Anyway, I'm not gunna derail the thread anymore and argue with you about it as it's clearly not going anywhere. I wasn't the only one who read your post in a weird way. Your original post said literally nothing about dancing.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Yes you're at fault, just like you were when you just realized and edited out that bit about Oscar Issac.
I misread one thing you said about him in one of your posts. I'm not at fault for something you failed to make clear in your original post. My original point stands. I have no idea why you'd comment about white people when there's a boatload of people of color, front and center, and in the background. And that rubbed me the wrong way. Like I said this ain't going anywhere so I'm done talking about it in this thread.
 
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Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Uh, wow. You definitely care about Star Wars.

I don't watch these films like you do.

To me, they're popcorn films with pop-culture merit.

ROTS is the only one that actually tries (and fails) to be grander than a simple fairy tale.

It's really only the Jedi that really pique my interest and without them, it feels like any other space opera. That's my view.

It's why I'm absolutely uninterested in Solo and I watched Rogue One once (which I actually thought was saved by a good third act).
That's fair enough. I grew up with star wars and fell in love with its world.

I still have a few hundred of the old EU books in my library and thanks to a condition I have I can remember most of their details two decades later.

I know it probably sounds silly but I really care about the franchise and I couldn't be happier with how things are.

I don't think Reven Wolf's comments is all that different from what people think about Star Wars in this thread. I teared up when I saw Yoda pop up or when Leia's message to Obi-Wan showed up and I haven't been a fan for my whole life like others have. To me Star Wars is more than dumb popcorn films, which is why The Last Jedi resonates with me so much. It attempts, and succeeds, to be more than just a blockbuster. It reaches emotional heights that I haven't gotten in a blockbuster since...ever?

I completely agree, I will forever remember both scenes, they were absolutely perfect and resounded in me in a way I can't really adequately describe.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Tbh, I kinda just want Star Wars to become more of a constant tv show thing.

The world-building and lore interests me more along with the Jedi.

I'd rather watch media on Jedi at their apex like KOTOR or KOTOR II or jump ahead with a rebuilt Jedi Order.

If you really want to democratize the Force then bring back the Jedi Order which was a bunch of nobodies using the Force and bring back other Force groups.

It's all well and good that TLJ tries to make it seem like anyone can use the Force well where are they? All I see is Rey, Snoke and the Skywalkers using the Force.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
TLJ never really says anyone can use the Force, because that's obviously not the case, but that the Force is everywhere and in everything and that to think that the light side of the Force would die if the Jedi are gone is vanity. Rey and Broomkid are more about people being able to be important and heroic even if they're not legends or come from legends and less about everyone using the Force.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
TLJ never really says anyone can use the Force, because that's obviously not the case, but that the Force is everywhere and in everything and that to think that the light side of the Force would die if the Jedi are gone is vanity. Rey and Broomkid are more about people being able to be important and heroic even if they're not legends or come from legends and less about everyone using the Force.

Anakin was once a slave too.

Broom Kid is the next Force Messiah gone wrong

Child Anakin even looks like him.

Anyways, I think Luke's argument is kinda dim. Darkside users can throw the Force off-balance. Without the Jedi, the darkside will likely win. Unless there are other warriors that can go toe to toe with them and are willing which we haven't seen.

It's basically an argument not to do anything.
 

Deleted member 11039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,109
TLJ never really says anyone can use the Force, because that's obviously not the case, but that the Force is everywhere and in everything and that to think that the light side of the Force would die if the Jedi are gone is vanity. Rey and Broomkid are more about people being able to be important and heroic even if they're not legends or come from legends and less about everyone using the Force.

The problem I have with that is the force has always been talked about as being everywhere and in everything, so the idea that the if the Jedi are gone then the force is gone, just seems like something TLJ made up to immediately refute.

I may just not be remembering something, but is the idea that the force would die with the Jedi a thing that existed before TLJ?"
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
I'm replying to this post nearly ten pages ago because I couldn't respond in full at the time, but this is one thing that I think is worth addressing. The truth is that some fans have been using the 'stop talking about power levels' thing as just a shut down, myself included because I am exhausted to TEARS by this goddamn conversation. There are numerous reasons that all come together as a whole that perfectly justify why Rey is what she is. But I don't want to give the impression that any sort of story aspect is beyond criticism. So...lets talk about how to criticize the force.

First, the Force is space magic. That's the number one thing we need to get out of the gate because some people have literally used "They're just using the Force as some sort of space magic now" as an actual criticism. Which, while silly, is still an indication of how people view force. It is definitely space magic, but what kind of space magic is it?

Magic (of the space kind or otherwise) comes in a lot of flavors. Some magic is just the "mysterious forces of divinity" type of magic. For example, the magic of Lord of the Rings, where we never really are given insight into how Gandalf casts his spells. All we really know is that his power comes from the universe's God. There are levels of power that God assigns to his various servants (and when Gandalf gets a promotion, he gets a boost in his pwoer), but that's basically all there is to it. He is just a magical being and can simply make things happen. On the opposite end, there is magic that functions more like just a made up law of physics, where it's basically a science. Sympathy, from Kingkiller Chronicles, has it that that you can use your will to connect things mentally in order to transfer energy, and the more similar two things are, there is less friction or loss of energy in the transfer. It's really basically just an extra law of physics, like gravity, that only a few learned people happen to know how to use.

Most magics fall somewhere in between, and The Force falls nearly almost in the "mysterious force of the universe". Except where Tolkien modeled his magic system after christianity, with one allpowerful figure being the key source of everything in the universe, including magic, Star Wars is, as has been often stated, to be influenced by eastern religions, like Taoism. I'm not going to get heavily into that, because it's not important and I'm too ignorant about those topics to say anything meaningful except some basic things. Taoism doesn't preach about an allpowerful figure, but an all encompassing....thing. The Tao, translated as "The Way", which is less about emphasizing any rigid rules so much as connecting to everything that exists, which brings a person the ability to perform the 'rightful action', of a sort.

I've mentioned before that the Force has been depicted in a variety of ways. In the OT, Obiwan taught Luke that he can use the force to get what he wants, but that it controls him. Luke, when he listened to Obiwan's advice, got what he wanted when he used the force....allowing it to use him. He went on to use it sparingly before finally deciding to go to Yoda, who showed him that he can achieve feats much greater than anything he could believe at the time, but the force also used him to guide him to Vader and he was not able to win. Finally, Luke in RotJ uses the force to sense the light in Vader, wrestles with the dark side himself, and ultimately wins the day by believing in his father.

That's the bare bones synopsis of what happens in the OT, but what does this actually mean in terms of STORY? Well, when Luke realizes that he needs to change from a simple farm boy, using the force allows him to strive to connect the one family figure that has always alluded him: His father. He wanted to be like his father. Which is why his Death Star run at the end of ANH is as much a personal victory as it is a political one. He has taken the first step into becoming what his father (and his recently deceased friend, Obiwan) was: A great Jedi. That is what the force is to him, something that lets him reconnect to his family (again, literally in the case of Obiwan, who can talk to him from beyond the grave using the Force).

This goes deeper, and is actually a great act of subversion of this journey, in Empire Strikes Back. The Force, or rather his inability to connect with it entirely, denote his limitations and insecurities. The force becomes something of an ominous presence, warning him of Vader, while Yoda, a master, shows off all the sort of tricks he could do if he was just better at using the force than he is. This isn't about power levels, it's the fact that Luke is fearful that he is not good enough to save his friends. All this coming to a head that the greatest force user he has ever seen, his enemy, the person that he, through the Force, aspired to become all this time was the evil bastard he's been fighting all along.

Then in Return of the Jedi, Luke's has far more mastery of the force, but now he has to consider what he wants to do with it. His masters, both of them, tell him he needs to be able to slay vader. But it is the force itself that pulls him away from the path. The oft quoted like "I know there is good in you, I can sense it". As painful as the experiences with the force he's had before were, using the force, he finds something of value in Vader and acts in a way that absolutely no one could really make sense of. He surrenders himself to vader, which is the only actual act that could allow him to foster the light inside him and overthrow the emperor.

See, the force is space magic, but magic in stories, especially good ones, is often just another way to frame characters and character development. This doesn't necessarily have to be magic. In the manga Berserk, it follows the story of Guts, whose life is utter shit. He starts as a child wielding a normal sword (which looks oversized for a 5 year old) and basically just has it scale up as he grows, so he's constantly wielding ridiculous swords. Now, the "How it works" explanation is that because he's been progressively scaling up the sword from when he was a kid, he's learned to fight with a weapon most people would consider unwieldy. But from a story perspective, what the sword represents is Gut's accumulated growth and suffering. As his story goes on, more bad things happen to him, the greater the burden of the sword becomes, culiminating in the largest sword, The Dragonslayer, which is the iconic sword he is shown in most art works with, after he suffered his most horrific act in the series. Do you see the difference? One is just a "How this thing is supposed to work in the context of this universe", the other is what that thing actually means.

Which is why I would argue that the prequels are significantly less faithful to the original vision of the force in the OT than the sequels. You can explain the different fighting styles and so on as them just being masters and better Jedi than Luke, but what does the force actually mean to the characters of the prequels? To them, it's a weapon of war. Almost every Jedi and aspect of Jedi culture is militarized and the Jedi view the force as just something that helps them beat down an enemy. Which, btw, if Lucas didn't completely suck at writing, itself could have been a valid interpretation of the force in that it's how Jedi who have basically become an institutionalized militia with mystic aesthetic, but it came off as less that and more that Lucas unintentionally forgot to make the story with a character focus, so the force instead just happened to become a super power that the super cops use. This is why I brought up the different types of magic. Even though the force isn't explained in much more detail here than it was in the OT, the force was treated by the characters as just another law of physics, another tool in their kit, impersonal. We don't know what the force meant to Obiwan other than that it saved his life by killing his enemies. Anakin might view it in terms of his ambition, his way out of the desert planet and slavery. But...that's really it. It's a very shallow and static reading on what Luke presented as dynamic, fluid, mysterious, and personal.



All this to say, if you're going to criticize the Force, then I'd appreciate an argument that basis itself on how it's not positioned in such a way to help Rey's character. "Don't start this power levels shit" has become the default response because nearly every argument I've seen has been about power levels of some kind. "Luke couldn't do this, so how can she?"

The better question is "What does her using the force to do this mean for the story?" What does this say about Rey? How does this change Rey? What does Rey see the force as? Stuff like that. That's the shit I'm interested in.

Edit: Holy shit, I didn't post at the bottom of the page for once

So good Veelk.

Although, as others have pointed out, Lucas ended up (especially in The Clone Wars) coming around also to the idea that the prequel era Jedi were nothing more than a mystic militia, like you aptly put it. Whether he intended it from the beginning or simply remember too late his own lessons about the Force from the OT, who knows.

But that's also the reason Luke confidently tells Rey that the Jedi were in large part responsible for their own demise. They forgot what the Force was for. Yoda even takes an epic, silly quest around the Galaxy and is taught how to be a Force Ghost and is castigated by the Force itself for forgetting the real nature of the Force.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
The problem I have with that is the force has always been talked about as being everywhere and in everything, so the idea that the if the Jedi are gone then the force is gone, just seems like something TLJ made up to immediately refute.

I may just not be remembering something, but is the idea that the force would die with the Jedi a thing that existed before TLJ?"
Not the Force but the light side specifically and I think that comes into play when taking about balancing the Force or how when the Empire that the light side "lost" when the Jedi were wiped but in reality that doesn't mean shit to the Force. The Force is still the Force no matter if there are Jedi or not.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
The problem I have with that is the force has always been talked about as being everywhere and in everything, so the idea that the if the Jedi are gone then the force is gone, just seems like something TLJ made up to immediately refute.

I may just not be remembering something, but is the idea that the force would die with the Jedi a thing that existed before TLJ?"

Yes, because then what was the point of Luke being "the new hope" or training with Yoda to be the last Jedi and thus making him "the Return of the Jedi"? Of course Star Wars made a huge point that the Jedi were the a thing that could save the Galaxy.

And Lucas made it even more of a point when making Anakin (or Luke?) the Chosen One that would balance the Force out by eliminating the Sith, as if the Jedi and Sith were the only things relevant to the Force.

Which, as you yourself have noticed, doesn't make sense by the Star Wars universe's own (very loose) rules about the Force. The sequel trilogy, especially The Last Jedi, makes it a point that the old Jedi Order isn't necessary anymore, but Rey can take the soul of the Force (the books, ahem) and build a new light-side protector. Or something more?

That's Episode 9.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
Anakin was once a slave too.

Broom Kid is the next Force Messiah gone wrong

Child Anakin even looks like him.

Anyways, I think Luke's argument is kinda dim. Darkside users can throw the Force off-balance. Without the Jedi, the darkside will likely win. Unless there are other warriors that can go toe to toe with them and are willing which we haven't seen.

It's basically an argument not to do anything.

But that's Luke's point. The Jedi aren't the same as the light-side. They're not the same thing. The Sith are also extinct, and lo and behold, there are new darkside users.

Other light-side users would pop up somewhere, some time. That's why he decided to go to Ahch-To and die. He was sure he was doing more harm to the Galaxy and his loved ones by trying to resurrect the old Jedi Order.

In the end, he understands that he was being too hard on himself and that he forgot to pass on what he had learned and he had to help the new generation.
 

XAL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
373
Yes, because then what was the point of Luke being "the new hope" or training with Yoda to be the last Jedi and thus making him "the Return of the Jedi"? Of course Star Wars made a huge point that the Jedi were the a thing that could save the Galaxy.

And Lucas made it even more of a point when making Anakin (or Luke?) the Chosen One that would balance the Force out by eliminating the Sith, as if the Jedi and Sith were the only things relevant to the Force.

Which, as you yourself have noticed, doesn't make sense by the Star Wars universe's own (very loose) rules about the Force. The sequel trilogy, especially The Last Jedi, makes it a point that the old Jedi Order isn't necessary anymore, but Rey can take the soul of the Force (the books, ahem) and build a new light-side protector. Or something more?

That's Episode 9.

Boy this canon tho

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Father_(Mortis)
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,931

For me there is simply no way to reconcile all this drivel with the film series. The Anakin I saw in ROTS had not been on a metaphysical journey of discovery, he was just a prick. The EU might be 'canon' but it will always be extraneous. Things like that giant celestial moose from the recent TV show just don't mesh with the films, there will always be a divide between them.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673

Ugh, I know. Which is why I'm sticking with what we see in the movies, mostly.

The Mortis arc is the exception that proves the rule, I guess. They're all dead by the end of it anyway, so they don't matter anymore (unless you believe the daughter and son are still alive and she's an owl flying around the Galaxy) in deciding what "balance" is.

The Force is basically now fending for itself. Those Yoda episodes of him visiting a planet from where the Force literally springs out don't even mention Mortis.

Then you have the Bendu from Rebels. It's a bit more cohesive with the mythology from the movies because he doesn't say he's holding the Force itself together. He just is neutral in the conflict between the conflicts of the galaxy, even between light and dark-side wielders.
 
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XAL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
373
For me there is simply no way to reconcile all this drivel with the film series. The Anakin I saw in ROTS had not been on a metaphysical journey of discovery, he was just a prick. The EU might be 'canon' but it will always be extraneous. Things like that giant celestial moose from the recent TV show just don't mesh with the films, there will always be a divide between them.

Yeah, all of the prequel characters are handled infinitely better in Clone Wars/Rebels. When Ashoka and Vader meet in Rebels for the last time, one of the most satisfying moments in all of Star Wars.
I just really hate when story elements are held for "offscreen material" ie books, comics, tv shows. I'm going to go ahead and assume we're going to learn about Snoke through the comics or a book.

Ugh, I know. Which is why I'm sticking with what we see in the movies, mostly.

The Mortis arc is the exception that proves the rule, I guess. They're all dead by the end of it, anyway, so they don't matter anymore (unless you believe the daughter and son are still alive and she's an owl flying around the Galaxy) in deciding what "balance" is.

The Force is basically now fending for itself. Those Yoda episodes of him visiting a planet from where the Force literally springs out don't even mention Mortis.

Yeah the Mortis arc is pretty batshit but the concept is sort of interesting.
I think we still don't even know what the fuck the "Force Awakens" actually means? Is there some kind of actual event or is it just one of JJ's mystery box bullshits that will never be resolved?

Side note, I wonder what the new TV project after Rebels will be.
 

Mockerre

Story Director
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
630
Except they never said that. Making up stuff to prove your point just makes your point seem all the more foolish.

All RT said was the user reviews were legitimate accounts....which no one denied. The argument is people flooded RT with reviews to purposely pull down the score due to their crazy anti-SJW, anti-losing the EU, etc agendas. Not that RT was hacked.

Fortunately, the alt-right asshats are a lot less numerous than people give them credit for, they just shout a lot.

As to the anti-losing the EU agenda... if people are displeased with retconning the stories they liked with a story they don't like, it's there right to voice their opinion.

Either way, that's how opinions work - if you want the RT audience score to be higher, just ask your friends that liked TLJ to put that in writing on the page.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,001
I think we still don't even know what the fuck the "Force Awakens" actually means? Is there some kind of actual event or is it just one of JJ's mystery box bullshits that will never be resolved?

Isn't this referring to the force starting to kick in Rey?

Snoke: There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?
Ren: Yes.

And Snoke explains in TLJ that he wrongly thought that was Luke.
 

Deleted member 11039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,109
Yes, because then what was the point of Luke being "the new hope" or training with Yoda to be the last Jedi and thus making him "the Return of the Jedi"? Of course Star Wars made a huge point that the Jedi were the a thing that could save the Galaxy.

And Lucas made it even more of a point when making Anakin (or Luke?) the Chosen One that would balance the Force out by eliminating the Sith, as if the Jedi and Sith were the only things relevant to the Force.

Which, as you yourself have noticed, doesn't make sense by the Star Wars universe's own (very loose) rules about the Force. The sequel trilogy, especially The Last Jedi, makes it a point that the old Jedi Order isn't necessary anymore, but Rey can take the soul of the Force (the books, ahem) and build a new light-side protector. Or something more?

That's Episode 9.

As far as the OT goes I guess I never thought of "Luke is our last hope" as meaning he's the last to hold the light side just that he's the only one who has a chance against Vader and the Emperor. "The force is strong with this one" not "whoa this guy has the force."

Obviously Jedi are a big deal, but all the "good guys" go around saying "may the force be with you" so I don't know why I'd think the force or light side is beholden to Jedi.

With the PT i guess I already had those existing thoughts and I just applied that same thinking to them. But the Jedi are shown to be wrong about that interpretation in the PT themselves, so I'm still not sure why I'd think the Jedi are the sole owners of the force or the light side.

Ultimately I guess I don't really see Jedi v Sith much different than Rey v Ren. It's just labels.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,001
What's the difference? We saw him use the Force, so clearly others in the galaxy are developing their powers, not just Rey.

I think there is exactly the same difference Rey mentions:

"Something inside me has always been there, but now it's awake."

The boy is like Rey in her childhood. He's not aware of it yet.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,931
I think there is exactly the same difference Rey mentions:

"Something inside me has always been there, but now it's awake."

The boy is like Rey in her childhood. He's not aware of it yet.

He used the Force, so clearly his powers are awake too. The Force "Awakening" is not about randomly assigning powers to people. It's the latent connection to the Force coming alive in those who have it.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
At the height of the republic, the Jedi temple had over 200 masters spread across the galaxy, who knows how many padawans and how many trainees. Rey clearly isn't the only force user around, and I think that when Snoke and Ren discuss her "awakening" they're pointing out how noticeable it was - probably dozens of people "awaken" to the Force across the galaxy in a year, but Rey's a prodigy and they notice it due to the intensity with which the force reacts to her.


Now, returning to my negative Nancy self, I was thinking back at Luke's arc and how I disagree with the criticism some fans have thrown at the idea of him becoming an hermit. It's a good arc for the character, and I don't even particularly mind his out-of-character moment of weakness interacting with Ben: who knows what he saw and experience between Ep.VI and that moment.
I do wish they let Luke eventually leave Ach'too, and I do wish the movie focused on him becoming a mentor figure for Rey and the crew, with no big action confrontation with Kylo/Snoke in VIII, leaving his closure to Ep. IX. But it is what it is.

However I can't really agree with the decision of playing the ST with such a rushed pace, making everything span across hours and days rather then weeks or years. And Luke and Rey's arc suffer because of that. I think people who complain that Rey gets no training on Ach'too are misguided: as Yoda says, the point was never training her. The Resistance is on its last knee, and they NEED Luke Skywalker to come back and change the tide of the war. Rey's not on Ach'too to train, she's there to persuade Luke to come back. Yoda clearly points out she doesn't need training. Rey is clearly less troubled than Luke was when he got to Degobah. She's more confident, she's got a clearer idea of what the force is, and quite clearly a stronger connection with it.

Ach'too arc isn't about training Rey but "training" Luke. Winning him back to the cause. And Rey knows it's a desperate race because the Resistance is under siege. There's no time to waste, she needs to be back with Luke asap. But then the tone changes and she starts... training? Or asking for it, as least. It's an incredibly bizzarre arc because even if Rian does all he can (even in terms of info dumping all possible explanations for having the slowest car chase in movie history) to slow down the action on the other side of the galaxy you have a space battle so long that Rey gets to play something remindful of the Bride's arc in Kill Bill Volume II (that lasted years, here it's... barely a day, but we still get a night in the middle).

The pacing of the entire thing feels even more forced than the Degobah arc was in ESB, and reinforces my idea that the weakest part of TLJ is the script, specifically the "story" the movie tells. I suspect much of it depends on the choice of making VIII start RIGHT AFTER VII - both movies needed a bit more room to breathe. The end result to me feels like a whole lot of nothing happened, except Luke died and the Resistance is still on the run (in diminished form). We get a powerful ending that implies that the legend of Luke Skywalker may spark hope across the galaxy, but if the next movie starts again picking up where VIII left, then what's the point? The news will barely have reached people in the galaxy before the war is over.

VIII's ending would have been a FANTASTIC closure for ep. IX. Luke dies for the Resistance in the darkest hour, Rey resolves the conflict with Kylo and becomes the new hope for the future, but the First Order still exists in some form. The saga would end on the note that it's not over or that it can all happen again, and then you have the last shot of broom kid telling you that even if it happens, there will be a new Luke Skywalker, a new Rey, and hope isn't lost. The broom kid shot would have been goosebump worthy at the end of IX, but at the end of VIII, with the story still fully in the hands of Rey and the gang, when we're right in the middle of the action and probably chronologically we'll conclude the story before the broom kid scene even happens, its power is lost.
 

Darcy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
I'm replying to this post nearly ten pages ago because I couldn't respond in full at the time, but this is one thing that I think is worth addressing. The truth is that some fans have been using the 'stop talking about power levels' thing as just a shut down, myself included because I am exhausted to TEARS by this goddamn conversation. There are numerous reasons that all come together as a whole that perfectly justify why Rey is what she is. But I don't want to give the impression that any sort of story aspect is beyond criticism. So...lets talk about how to criticize the force.

First, the Force is space magic. That's the number one thing we need to get out of the gate because some people have literally used "They're just using the Force as some sort of space magic now" as an actual criticism. Which, while silly, is still an indication of how people view force. It is definitely space magic, but what kind of space magic is it?

Magic (of the space kind or otherwise) comes in a lot of flavors. Some magic is just the "mysterious forces of divinity" type of magic. For example, the magic of Lord of the Rings, where we never really are given insight into how Gandalf casts his spells. All we really know is that his power comes from the universe's God. There are levels of power that God assigns to his various servants (and when Gandalf gets a promotion, he gets a boost in his pwoer), but that's basically all there is to it. He is just a magical being and can simply make things happen. On the opposite end, there is magic that functions more like just a made up law of physics, where it's basically a science. Sympathy, from Kingkiller Chronicles, has it that that you can use your will to connect things mentally in order to transfer energy, and the more similar two things are, there is less friction or loss of energy in the transfer. It's really basically just an extra law of physics, like gravity, that only a few learned people happen to know how to use.

Most magics fall somewhere in between, and The Force falls nearly almost in the "mysterious force of the universe". Except where Tolkien modeled his magic system after christianity, with one allpowerful figure being the key source of everything in the universe, including magic, Star Wars is, as has been often stated, to be influenced by eastern religions, like Taoism. I'm not going to get heavily into that, because it's not important and I'm too ignorant about those topics to say anything meaningful except some basic things. Taoism doesn't preach about an allpowerful figure, but an all encompassing....thing. The Tao, translated as "The Way", which is less about emphasizing any rigid rules so much as connecting to everything that exists, which brings a person the ability to perform the 'rightful action', of a sort.

I've mentioned before that the Force has been depicted in a variety of ways. In the OT, Obiwan taught Luke that he can use the force to get what he wants, but that it controls him. Luke, when he listened to Obiwan's advice, got what he wanted when he used the force....allowing it to use him. He went on to use it sparingly before finally deciding to go to Yoda, who showed him that he can achieve feats much greater than anything he could believe at the time, but the force also used him to guide him to Vader and he was not able to win. Finally, Luke in RotJ uses the force to sense the light in Vader, wrestles with the dark side himself, and ultimately wins the day by believing in his father.

That's the bare bones synopsis of what happens in the OT, but what does this actually mean in terms of STORY? Well, when Luke realizes that he needs to change from a simple farm boy, using the force allows him to strive to connect the one family figure that has always alluded him: His father. He wanted to be like his father. Which is why his Death Star run at the end of ANH is as much a personal victory as it is a political one. He has taken the first step into becoming what his father (and his recently deceased friend, Obiwan) was: A great Jedi. That is what the force is to him, something that lets him reconnect to his family (again, literally in the case of Obiwan, who can talk to him from beyond the grave using the Force).

This goes deeper, and is actually a great act of subversion of this journey, in Empire Strikes Back. The Force, or rather his inability to connect with it entirely, denote his limitations and insecurities. The force becomes something of an ominous presence, warning him of Vader, while Yoda, a master, shows off all the sort of tricks he could do if he was just better at using the force than he is. This isn't about power levels, it's the fact that Luke is fearful that he is not good enough to save his friends. All this coming to a head that the greatest force user he has ever seen, his enemy, the person that he, through the Force, aspired to become all this time was the evil bastard he's been fighting all along.

Then in Return of the Jedi, Luke's has far more mastery of the force, but now he has to consider what he wants to do with it. His masters, both of them, tell him he needs to be able to slay vader. But it is the force itself that pulls him away from the path. The oft quoted like "I know there is good in you, I can sense it". As painful as the experiences with the force he's had before were, using the force, he finds something of value in Vader and acts in a way that absolutely no one could really make sense of. He surrenders himself to vader, which is the only actual act that could allow him to foster the light inside him and overthrow the emperor.

See, the force is space magic, but magic in stories, especially good ones, is often just another way to frame characters and character development. This doesn't necessarily have to be magic. In the manga Berserk, it follows the story of Guts, whose life is utter shit. He starts as a child wielding a normal sword (which looks oversized for a 5 year old) and basically just has it scale up as he grows, so he's constantly wielding ridiculous swords. Now, the "How it works" explanation is that because he's been progressively scaling up the sword from when he was a kid, he's learned to fight with a weapon most people would consider unwieldy. But from a story perspective, what the sword represents is Gut's accumulated growth and suffering. As his story goes on, more bad things happen to him, the greater the burden of the sword becomes, culiminating in the largest sword, The Dragonslayer, which is the iconic sword he is shown in most art works with, after he suffered his most horrific act in the series. Do you see the difference? One is just a "How this thing is supposed to work in the context of this universe", the other is what that thing actually means.

Which is why I would argue that the prequels are significantly less faithful to the original vision of the force in the OT than the sequels. You can explain the different fighting styles and so on as them just being masters and better Jedi than Luke, but what does the force actually mean to the characters of the prequels? To them, it's a weapon of war. Almost every Jedi and aspect of Jedi culture is militarized and the Jedi view the force as just something that helps them beat down an enemy. Which, btw, if Lucas didn't completely suck at writing, itself could have been a valid interpretation of the force in that it's how Jedi who have basically become an institutionalized militia with mystic aesthetic, but it came off as less that and more that Lucas unintentionally forgot to make the story with a character focus, so the force instead just happened to become a super power that the super cops use. This is why I brought up the different types of magic. Even though the force isn't explained in much more detail here than it was in the OT, the force was treated by the characters as just another law of physics, another tool in their kit, impersonal. We don't know what the force meant to Obiwan other than that it saved his life by killing his enemies. Anakin might view it in terms of his ambition, his way out of the desert planet and slavery. But...that's really it. It's a very shallow and static reading on what Luke presented as dynamic, fluid, mysterious, and personal.



All this to say, if you're going to criticize the Force, then I'd appreciate an argument that basis itself on how it's not positioned in such a way to help Rey's character. "Don't start this power levels shit" has become the default response because nearly every argument I've seen has been about power levels of some kind. "Luke couldn't do this, so how can she?"

The better question is "What does her using the force to do this mean for the story?" What does this say about Rey? How does this change Rey? What does Rey see the force as? Stuff like that. That's the shit I'm interested in.

Edit: Holy shit, I didn't post at the bottom of the page for once

Interesting argument.
I am usually forced to deal with the OT in my argumentation because it is always brought up as an excuse. "If you didn't have a problem with Luke you shouldn't have had a problem with Rey.", or "The sequels should be able to do the same."
I try to recontextualize Luke and Rey separate hero's journey. I am not saying Rey's journey in TFA is bad because it does not echoe Luke's. I just don't understand people name calling others because they don't accept everything thrown at them, SW movie or not.

Fantasy stories use a lot of powerful magical tricks, but not all of them have the same quality. Maintaining interesting and exciting growth is the ultimate benchmark. There is still a sense of verisimilitude that give a great value to the characters arc/growth.
I would like to point out that Gandalf is the Paragon figure of the serie. He is already capped out growth wise and is used as a support character for the other character progressions. Him being God-like has not the same impact (even tho he find a real challenging matches regularly). The main protagonists still have an exciting, suspensful and tense journey.

One of my main argument that I had expressed more clearly in another debate was simply how the force and her characterization impact her hero journey, and how interesting it makes her growth or not. I try to evaluate how exciting and satisfying her character progression is throughout the story in itself (without any preconceptions from the OT); and what the writers were trying to do with her character(in my opinion, put one fan service big set piece after the other, try to make her "star warsy" (whatever that means), and give her some pity points).
I can address the same criticism toward most anime/"power fantasy".

TLJ, for all its flaws, is not like TFA. It is not about pushing Rey into the next fan service plot point/set piece in a big stretch. It does deal with the character in a MUCH better way. Things are not ludicrously thrown out for you to blindingly accept, her progression is better written, decently build up and more credible (or "relatable") for an audience, imo. Better THAN TFA

But ultimately, both movie fail to bring her to a full fledged and believable woman in early adulthood. In her core. I believe. And this is I think what is going to make her ultimately "forgettable".
 
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KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,001
The Resistance is on its last knee, and they NEED Luke Skywalker to come back and change the tide of the war. Rey's not on Ach'too to train, she's there to persuade Luke to come back. Yoda clearly points out she doesn't need training. Rey is clearly less troubled than Luke was when he got to Degobah. She's more confident, she's got a clearer idea of what the force is, and quite clearly a stronger connection with it.

Ach'too arc isn't about training Rey but "training" Luke. Winning him back to the cause. And Rey knows it's a desperate race because the Resistance is under siege. There's no time to waste, she needs to be back with Luke asap. But then the tone changes and she starts... training? Or asking for it, as least.

Having it seen yesterday again I actually noticed that Rey doesn't ask for Luke to train her until he actually start guiding her. Even then she is just asking what is her place in this world, not for an actual training. Luke is the one who tells her that she needs a Master, somebody to train her but he's not the one who should. First part of the interactions between Rey and Luke is her asking him to come and help Leia and the Resistance. Repeatedly. He only decides to train her as an alternative for him leaving the island. It's practically his workaround for not changing his mind about his decisions. This happens also because he sees how much "raw power" she has and how fast she just goes into the dark side of the force. So it's practically a crash course into the Force. Rey keeps asking him to come with her up until the moment she decides that maybe turning Kylo is the last resort since Luke still refuses to help. So the desperation is still there all along. It's just that Luke is not moved in his decisions. Only his dialogue with Yoda and his connection with Leia makes him change his mind in the end.
 

Mockerre

Story Director
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
630
User has been warned: drive-by post intended to derail discussion.
Meanwhile, in the real world:

TLJ trailing behind Jumanji remake.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
And forget the realism of space chase or spaceship warfare, a bigger continuity problem in the movie is the "legend of Luke Skywalker".

Now, remember that people across the galaxy ain't gonna see the movie. They get the news of what happened. Who do they get it from? The witnesses are the Resistance (on the run and locked on the Millennium Falcon) and the First Order. They'll both get their version of the story out.

So, in the last few hours, what happened?

Supreme Leader Snoke died, assassinated by war criminal Rey Kenobi (lolol). He's been replaced by Supreme Leader Kylo Ren, a figure presumably known and feared across the galaxy. It's a big blow, but the FO is still definitely in a better spot than the Resistance.

The Resistance lost its fleet, lost its main base, most of its troops. Luke Skywalker, the legendary guy who they wanted to use as a propaganda tool ("once Luke is back, the tide of the war changes") appeared and...? The FO lost nothing on Crait.

What story do the two opposing groups bring to the public?

The FO will have something about losses being minimal, the new Supreme Leader having much better hair than the old one, them scoring a great victory at Crait, the resistance being basically eradicated. All this is true. About Luke? They can lie and say he never actually showed up. And as he'll never actually show up again, the story will be believable. They can tell the truth: Luke Skywalker showed up as an hologram or something similar, allowing a single ship to escape the siege. The Resistance are a big bunch of cowards with no allies and resources, on the run from the Mighty First Order. Luke's dead, by the way. Letting the galaxy know the truth, ironically, would really serve the First Order.


And the Resistance? Let's assume they can reach the vast corners of the galaxy from the Falcon, without exposing themselves to the people chasing them. Let's say they get the message across to friendly media who will spread it in places like Canto Bright (as we see in the movie). But what story do they tell? "There was like 20 of us left, the First Order was about to crush us, but Luke Skywalker sort-of showed up and distracted them so we could flee, at least the 15 people left. He's dead now by the way. Don't you feel like joining the Resistance?".
What's the plan here? Because the way I see it, they need to lie about what happened on Crait. To spread the spark, to create the legend of Luke Skywalker they need to make people believe he was actually there, that he fought the FO instead of distracting it, and that he's not dead.

And this in a nutshell is what bothers me to no end about the final arc of Luke's story and the entire astral projection superhero scene: Luke's legacy is a lie. In order for that arc to work, the galaxy mustn't know what actually happened. And personally I feel Luke deserved better.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
And forget the realism of space chase or spaceship warfare, a bigger continuity problem in the movie is the "legend of Luke Skywalker".

Now, remember that people across the galaxy ain't gonna see the movie. They get the news of what happened. Who do they get it from? The witnesses are the Resistance (on the run and locked on the Millennium Falcon) and the First Order. They'll both get their version of the story out.

So, in the last few hours, what happened?

Supreme Leader Snoke died, assassinated by war criminal Rey Kenobi (lolol). He's been replaced by Supreme Leader Kylo Ren, a figure presumably known and feared across the galaxy. It's a big blow, but the FO is still definitely in a better spot than the Resistance.

The Resistance lost its fleet, lost its main base, most of its troops. Luke Skywalker, the legendary guy who they wanted to use as a propaganda tool ("once Luke is back, the tide of the war changes") appeared and...? The FO lost nothing on Crait.

What story do the two opposing groups bring to the public?

The FO will have something about losses being minimal, the new Supreme Leader having much better hair than the old one, them scoring a great victory at Crait, the resistance being basically eradicated. All this is true. About Luke? They can lie and say he never actually showed up. And as he'll never actually show up again, the story will be believable. They can tell the truth: Luke Skywalker showed up as an hologram or something similar, allowing a single ship to escape the siege. The Resistance are a big bunch of cowards with no allies and resources, on the run from the Mighty First Order. Luke's dead, by the way. Letting the galaxy know the truth, ironically, would really serve the First Order.


And the Resistance? Let's assume they can reach the vast corners of the galaxy from the Falcon, without exposing themselves to the people chasing them. Let's say they get the message across to friendly media who will spread it in places like Canto Bright (as we see in the movie). But what story do they tell? "There was like 20 of us left, the First Order was about to crush us, but Luke Skywalker sort-of showed up and distracted them so we could flee, at least the 15 people left. He's dead now by the way. Don't you feel like joining the Resistance?".
What's the plan here? Because the way I see it, they need to lie about what happened on Crait. To spread the spark, to create the legend of Luke Skywalker they need to make people believe he was actually there, that he fought the FO instead of distracting it, and that he's not dead.

And this in a nutshell is what bothers me to no end about the final arc of Luke's story and the entire astral projection superhero scene: Luke's legacy is a lie. In order for that arc to work, the galaxy mustn't know what actually happened. And personally I feel Luke deserved better.

I think there is some beauty to the fact that only Rey and Leia know he died. They can decide to leave him as a boogeyman against The First Order or choose to reveal the truth and turn him into a martyr.

I'm interested to know what story is told to the galaxy in Episode IX.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,001
What's the plan here? Because the way I see it, they need to lie about what happened on Crait. To spread the spark, to create the legend of Luke Skywalker they need to make people believe he was actually there, that he fought the FO instead of distracting it, and that he's not dead.

Nobody in the Resistance actually saw that Luke was a projection.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Having it seen yesterday again I actually noticed that Rey doesn't ask for Luke to train her until he actually start guiding her. Even then she is just asking what is her place in this world, not for an actual training. Luke is the one who tells her that she needs a Master, somebody to train her but he's not the one who should. First part of the interactions between Rey and Luke is her asking him to come and help Leia and the Resistance. Repeatedly. He only decides to train her as an alternative for him leaving the island. It's practically his workaround for not changing his mind about his decisions. This happens also because he sees how much "raw power" she has and how fast she just goes into the dark side of the force. So it's practically a crash course into the Force. Rey keeps asking him to come with her up until the moment she decides that maybe turning Kylo is the last resort since Luke still refuses to help. So the desperation is still there all along. It's just that Luke is not moved in his decisions. Only his dialogue with Yoda and his connection with Leia makes him change his mind in the end.

Yeah, it's just really bizarre that A) Rian Johnson chooses to frame the story that way and B) that within the story Rey suddenly forgets Rey and Leia are literally being shot at while she speaks and questions. Now, her staying on Ach'too until she can persuade Luke can perfectly make sense, but her basically stopping to care as soon as he proves willing to train her is... selfish? Inconsiderate? Weird, at least?

Rey: "Come! We need to save everyone!"
Luke: "What if I told you you can lift rocks and discover the truth about your powers?"
Rey: "Fuck those guys, I'm in".

It's rather jarring.