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Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
Interesting article at Inverse.

https://www.inverse.com/article/407...y-klingon-war-history-canon-classic-tos-sarek

Basically the core of the article is that there might not be any need to undo anything and that the events of Discovery could very well, in a few ways, explain the state of Starfleet and the Federation in TOS. Of course we don't know how this season will end or what events will take place in season 2 and beyond but thought this was an interesting read.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,633
Interesting article at Inverse.

https://www.inverse.com/article/407...y-klingon-war-history-canon-classic-tos-sarek

Basically the core of the article is that there might not be any need to undo anything and that the events of Discovery could very well, in a few ways, explain the state of Starfleet and the Federation in TOS. Of course we don't know how this season will end or what events will take place in season 2 and beyond but thought this was an interesting read.
That's a pretty good read and seems to settle a few of the complaints people have about the canon
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,073
Interesting article at Inverse.

https://www.inverse.com/article/407...y-klingon-war-history-canon-classic-tos-sarek

Basically the core of the article is that there might not be any need to undo anything and that the events of Discovery could very well, in a few ways, explain the state of Starfleet and the Federation in TOS. Of course we don't know how this season will end or what events will take place in season 2 and beyond but thought this was an interesting read.

I imagined some of it going that anyway, but the highlights of the article make me realise that this does more for the films - namely III, IV and and VI - than it simply does TOS. Because now, in this current version of canon, perhaps the near-entirety of the senior staff that we seated at the table when the talk of making peace after the Praxis incident is thinking back to this war. A war that would have been the early years of each of their careers. When Kirk snaps, "Don't believe them! Don't trust them!", the backdrop of that isn't simply the death of his son and occasional encounters on the Enterprise, but days when the promises of peace wound up with Admirals either dead or kidnapped. We can see why those men and women were scarred so deeply that they would be more comfortable keeping the wound open.

On the flipside, it was always a bit odd that the Klingons tried to push the 'Genesis is a superweapon meant to wipe us out!' argument. In the original context it plays out as a laughably bad lie, obvious to anyone who knows the Federation's nature, simply intended to try and discredit them. Depending on what happens - though I'm still wary of getting the literal dictator's help in this - it may now be something that isn't without precedent. That while the Federation may espouse peace and would never wield weapons of mass destruction, they made an exception for the Klingons, dropping the in-universe equivalent of the A-bomb in terms of ending conflict at an insanely high ethical cost. Seeing Genesis as a potential successor to that, whatever it might prove to be, would make quite a degree more sense, while still tying back to the whole theme of the cost one is willing to pay in the defense of one's ideals. We've grappled with the efficacy of the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima for over seventy years now, so it would be possible to have an equivalent occur without being a clear cut 'good' thing, whatever the result.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
I imagined some of it going that anyway, but the highlights of the article make me realise that this does more for the films - namely III, IV and and VI - than it simply does TOS. Because now, in this current version of canon, perhaps the near-entirety of the senior staff that we seated at the table when the talk of making peace after the Praxis incident is thinking back to this war. A war that would have been the early years of each of their careers. When Kirk snaps, "Don't believe them! Don't trust them!", the backdrop of that isn't simply the death of his son and occasional encounters on the Enterprise, but days when the promises of peace wound up with Admirals either dead or kidnapped. We can see why those men and women were scarred so deeply that they would be more comfortable keeping the wound open.

On the flipside, it was always a bit odd that the Klingons tried to push the 'Genesis is a superweapon meant to wipe us out!' argument. In the original context it plays out as a laughably bad lie, obvious to anyone who knows the Federation's nature, simply intended to try and discredit them. Depending on what happens - though I'm still wary of getting the literal dictator's help in this - it may now be something that isn't without precedent. That while the Federation may espouse peace and would never wield weapons of mass destruction, they made an exception for the Klingons, dropping the in-universe equivalent of the A-bomb in terms of ending conflict at an insanely high ethical cost. Seeing Genesis as a potential successor to that, whatever it might prove to be, would make quite a degree more sense, while still tying back to the whole theme of the cost one is willing to pay in the defense of one's ideals. We've grappled with the efficacy of the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima for over seventy years now, so it would be possible to have an equivalent occur without being a clear cut 'good' thing, whatever the result.

The riot over Genesis always seemed to be hinting at something else bubbling under the surface, particularly with STII, where the scientists are an outside group working with Starfleet but are separate and Marcus talks about Starfleet having "kept the peace" for a hundred years. The implication being that there was some other promising humanitarian invention that got turned into a weapon and caused a massive schism between the military and scientific branches of the Federation. But for the Klingons, it's still easy to see why they see this as a threat—a weapon that could wipe out your enemies and leave a pristine planet designed the way you want, not to mention the advantage in colonizing new areas of space, would be a huge threat to their supremacy.

But the bigger issue the article glosses over is that in TOS the situation between the Klingons and Federation is set up in an explicit cold war. If it was fallout from a previous hot war, that would have been mentioned.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,633
I was thinking...could using Georgiou to end the war be a similar situation to Sisko in "The pale moonlight", where they keep it secret from the rest of Star Fleet and are willing to live with whatever the consequences of what Georgiou does to end the war?
 

Jackpot

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,827
I was thinking...could using Georgiou to end the war be a similar situation to Sisko in "The pale moonlight", where they keep it secret from the rest of Star Fleet and are willing to live with whatever the consequences of what Georgiou does to end the war?

Preview talk
Seems they're going to directly copy ST Into Darkness with her.
 

DarthWoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,678
There's something that troubles me about the mycelial reactor on the Charon. So if we take their word for it, the overuse of the reactor would have resulted in the destruction of all life connected by the mycelial network. Did they not also say that the mycelial network connects ALL universes, or was it just the Prime and Mirror universes? If it's all, and that's practically infinite parallel universes, would it not stand to reason that some user of a mycelial reactor somewhere in some universe is going to screw up and kill everything everywhere someday?

It's kind of the same way I feel about the concept of vacuum metastability events. If it's possible that we're in false vacuum, and that some sort of artificial interference could induce a vacuum metastability event, would it not stand to reason that there will inevitably be some intelligent species somewhere in the vast expanse of our universe that will royally mess up and set one off? (I know it would only expand at the speed of light, and thus could already have been happening for billions of years without us yet knowing, or even ever knowing before our planet is scorched by an expanding, dying Sun.)
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,193
There's something that troubles me about the mycelial reactor on the Charon. So if we take their word for it, the overuse of the reactor would have resulted in the destruction of all life connected by the mycelial network. Did they not also say that the mycelial network connects ALL universes, or was it just the Prime and Mirror universes? If it's all, and that's practically infinite parallel universes, would it not stand to reason that some user of a mycelial reactor somewhere in some universe is going to screw up and kill everything everywhere someday?

It's kind of the same way I feel about the concept of vacuum metastability events. If it's possible that we're in false vacuum, and that some sort of artificial interference could induce a vacuum metastability event, would it not stand to reason that there will inevitably be some intelligent species somewhere in the vast expanse of our universe that will royally mess up and set one off? (I know it would only expand at the speed of light, and thus could already have been happening for billions of years without us yet knowing, or even ever knowing before our planet is scor…


xRmN4_f-maxage-0.gif
 
Nov 2, 2017
592


I enjoyed this reminder that with Lorca now being revealed as mirror Lorca, the Elon Musk namedrop is no longer the awkward compliment to a problematic tech bro who hasn't done anything to deserve that level of praise yet.
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,102
Pennsylvania
Interesting article at Inverse.

https://www.inverse.com/article/407...y-klingon-war-history-canon-classic-tos-sarek

Basically the core of the article is that there might not be any need to undo anything and that the events of Discovery could very well, in a few ways, explain the state of Starfleet and the Federation in TOS. Of course we don't know how this season will end or what events will take place in season 2 and beyond but thought this was an interesting read.

Really cool theory they got going on there. Does fit with some of the comments they made in past interviews about thinking beginning to link up to old school Star Trek content. At any rate I think this season will end on a positive not and people will be more appreciative of it.
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,193
Umm, I thought we didn't need to spoiler tag things that had happened in episodes already aired? Otherwise, I'm not sure I understand this reference.
Relax, it's a TV show. I understand what you're saying, but when you stare into the void too long, it starts to stare back at you. And then you start showing it to your friends.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
Every Star Trek show should of had Shorter seasons, even DS9 and TNG at their best are full of dud episodes that are just filler
Short seasons only help shows with a single, continuous story.

Shows like TNG with stand alone episodes are better with more episodes.

The alternative is long series with 2-4 episode story arcs.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,659
Short seasons only help shows with a single, continuous story.

Shows like TNG with stand alone episodes are better with more episodes.

The alternative is long series with 2-4 episode story arcs.
But when you have run out of ideas you get shit like Sub Rosa and Masks.
Season 7 of TNG is just that episodes of brilliance or some of the worst shit in the franchise

I loved the 3 episode arcs in Enterprise season 4.

Wish more trek shows did that
 

Walras

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
183
User warned: drive-by posting
But when you have run out of ideas you get shit like Sub Rosa and Masks.
Season 7 of TNG is just that episodes of brilliance or some of the worst shit in the franchise

I loved the 3 episode arcs in Enterprise season 4.

Wish more trek shows did that

I rather rewatch Masks than watch another episode of Discovery.
 

Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
That he watched and now dropped. People talk about films, tv, and games they gave up on all the time.
They're also providing nothing meaningful to the discussion when they do. Time is to precious to waste talking about things you hate. Dislike something, one should say their piece then move on. I think that's the case with a lot of entertainment. There is a general Trek thread on the forum if one wants to continue to talk Trek but not bother with Discovery. Staying in the thread if one hates it, has no intention of ever watching again, is meaningless and waste everyone's time. I don't get hanging around a thread in regard to a show one hates. I really don't.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,406
Wheres the Orville thread so I can do tell them the show is shit?
 
Oct 27, 2017
427
Such a great show so far. Looking at some of these posts I am so glad I don't give a fuck about people's opinions. People hate on basically everything...
 

Icekilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
402
Interesting article at Inverse.

https://www.inverse.com/article/407...y-klingon-war-history-canon-classic-tos-sarek

Basically the core of the article is that there might not be any need to undo anything and that the events of Discovery could very well, in a few ways, explain the state of Starfleet and the Federation in TOS. Of course we don't know how this season will end or what events will take place in season 2 and beyond but thought this was an interesting read.

Makes sense, StarFleet probably got lazy and complacent before the war, they were just a peace keeping, humanitarian scientists because the Klingon's weren't causing problems. The Federation by Kirks time were probably more prepared and world weary.
 

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,389
TOS seemed very scarce of resources too. For one, a trade dispute between andorians and tellarites would be unheard of by the time of TNG... But it certainly was an issue for Kirk and co. In fact, it would even build on the antagonism towards Klingons from Star Trek VI
 

Funny Face

Member
Dec 5, 2017
180
I've enjoyed the season so far. The storyline has moved very quickly, and many of the characters have really grown on me. Probably the most disappointing part for me is that it often doesn't feel like a Star Trek show. I miss the optimistic tone and one-off storylines that permeate through TOS, TNG, and even Voyager. Then again, I've only watched a few DSN episodes because I'm (foolishly) hoping they'll release HD versions one of these days.

As for more specific comments. I enjoyed the way they handled Ash's arc, really liked the tension that was built for both Michael and Tilly in the mirror-verse, but then really disliked the Lorca twist.

Also, I know it was done because it's a TV show, but using an existing character as the Emperor was just so lazy. The positions of Tilly, Michael, Lorca, Voq, and Sarek in the mirror-verse were also way too forced. Reminds me of Lucas' "It's like poetry. It's sorta, they rhyme." No.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
Interesting article at Inverse.

https://www.inverse.com/article/407...y-klingon-war-history-canon-classic-tos-sarek

Basically the core of the article is that there might not be any need to undo anything and that the events of Discovery could very well, in a few ways, explain the state of Starfleet and the Federation in TOS. Of course we don't know how this season will end or what events will take place in season 2 and beyond but thought this was an interesting read.

Lol I just watched a TNG episode that undoes this theory regarding Sarek in 30 seconds.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,788
But when you have run out of ideas you get shit like Sub Rosa and Masks.
Season 7 of TNG is just that episodes of brilliance or some of the worst shit in the franchise

I loved the 3 episode arcs in Enterprise season 4.

Wish more trek shows did that

I'm not going to sit here and defend either of those episodes because they were indeed pretty awful, but I do miss having room in the episode order to breathe and take time away from whatever the main season-long arc is. I want a balance between Discovery's pedal-to-the-medal, all-twists-all-the-time approach and the space-anomaly-of-the-week approach TNG/Voyager took most of the time. DS9 I think was pretty good at that (though to be fair I didn't watch the last few seasons as closely).
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,633
You mean this part?

Sarek's diplomatic cred with the Klingons had to start somewhere, and it looks like we're witnessing it on Discovery. How will Sarek negotiate peace? Well, in the very first Discovery episode — "The Vulcan Hello" — we learned the Vulcans achieved a ceasefire with the Klingons through aggressively firing on all of their spaceships no matter what.

Eh, not exactly canon breaking if that's not how it happens.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,659
I'm not going to sit here and defend either of those episodes because they were indeed pretty awful, but I do miss having room in the episode order to breathe and take time away from whatever the main season-long arc is. I want a balance between Discovery's pedal-to-the-medal, all-twists-all-the-time approach and the space-anomaly-of-the-week approach TNG/Voyager took most of the time. DS9 I think was pretty good at that (though to be fair I didn't watch the last few seasons as closely).
DS9 feels a bit weird in later seasons like there's a war killing millions going on and they spend a lot of time hanging out with Vic Fontaine in the holosuite
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,686
I'm not going to sit here and defend either of those episodes because they were indeed pretty awful, but I do miss having room in the episode order to breathe and take time away from whatever the main season-long arc is. I want a balance between Discovery's pedal-to-the-medal, all-twists-all-the-time approach and the space-anomaly-of-the-week approach TNG/Voyager took most of the time. DS9 I think was pretty good at that (though to be fair I didn't watch the last few seasons as closely).

I miss "breather" episodes in shows too, but honestly, we're just so spoiled/affected by binge watching culture now that I don't know if that will work for a series that isn't a comedy or some tv drama.

We will have to accept that big budget shows (and Trek will always be a very big budget show, in any tv era) can no longer get 26 episodes a season because it also needs to create intense buzz each week or each season that is able to be digested on a weekend.

Star Trek was already dying long before the years of Lost, the Sopranos, 24 and Game of Thrones.

Those CW DC shows (or Agents of SHIELD) are right now one of the few examples of how a possible 20 plus episode long season of Star Trek might work in today's climate, but it would still suffer from other problems just like Discovery because they won't be able to create tight storylines. We would get two or three mediocre or bad episodes a season and in today's culture, that would be enough for some people to shit on it and say it's a failure.

Maybe the only way forward was a short anthology season like it was originally proposed, or 8 episode arcs.
 
Last edited:

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
I miss "breather" episodes in shows too, but honestly, we're just so spoiled/affected by binge watching culture now that I don't know if that will work for a series that isn't a comedy or some tv drama.

We will have to accept that big budget shows (and Trek will always be a very big budget show, in any tv era) can no longer get 26 episodes a season without it also creating intense buzz each week or each season that is able to be digested on a weekend.

Star Trek was already dying long before the years of Lost, the Sopranos, 24 and Game of Thrones.

Those CW DC shows are right now one of the few examples of how a possible 20 plus episode long season of Star Trek might work in today's climate, but it would still suffer from other problems just like Discovery.

Maybe the only way forward was a short anthology season like it was originally proposed, or 8 episode arcs.

This is what I saying earlier in the thread. The death of that kinda of TV happened while Trek was still on the air. Ronald Moore of DS9 was a part of killing that kind of show on network TV. Unless you're a crime drama or a comedy, no one gets that kind of episodic show anymore.
 

Medalion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,203
Get hype, new ep tonight... let's see how 9 months later with Klingons annexing Federation territory and pushing them against the ropes... how it plays out... will we see Mirror Discovery here as well?
 

Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
I really hope the reset button isn't pushed. There really is no need I feel. Granted it won't be the end of the world but I rather not see it done all the same. Unless no one on the Discovery loses their memories and all the events, loses, victories stay with them and we lose no character development.

That said I'm hyped to see how this season ends. Assuming Starfleet gets helped from the Emperor just how far are they willing to go and will it be enough to push back the Klingons. What kind of redemption would Starfleet and the Federation have to do as a result?
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,102
Pennsylvania
I will be disappointed if the season erases events via another time travel element. Hopefully the writers find something a lot more creative to resolve the story threads this season.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,318
I mean, if the Mirror Universe is the only reason why the Federation is saved, then what's the point of the Federation?
I suppose you also have the dumb time loop thing anyway, where the Mirror Universe needs the Prime Universe to send back the Defiant in the first place in order to exist, so you have this weird time loop there too.
 

Medalion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,203
They don't have Braga... there is fairly little chance of that happening, to wipe the entire first season by its end with a massive reset button.. not going to happen imo
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,102
Pennsylvania
They don't have Braga... there is fairly little chance of that happening, to wipe the entire first season by its end with a massive reset button.. not going to happen imo

I agree, I think the idea with this season finale will likely show the growth Michael has made throughout the season and she will end up doing something good to stop the war. I don't think time travel will be necessary. Would be cool if good old fashion Star Trek diplomacy helped end the war.
 

mightynine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,150
Mirror Discovery picks up the Emperor, who conveniently forgets to mention she's no longer the Emperor, and all the races have to unite to take down the Terrans?
 

Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
Of course tonight would be the night they decide to not let the episode go live early on CBSAA. Ugh.