Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,000
Following the market leader made a lot more sense 2 generations ago, but things have really shifted. Everyone is looking to answer how to maximize profits and not be at whims based on the ups and downs of the console market. Nintendo might be up now, but they might not be next gen. They're also in a quiet period right now at the end of a gen, where building a game on their aging HW and most Switch users are probably not as active on the system right now.

Building a strong PC presence as a publisher is one way.

Things haven't shifted as much as they want to say itherwise. Again, PS4 was the market leader, that was LAST generations. You can't go "how do we maximize profits" and then turn around and ignore a large market. You serve the market first and foremost. Their attempts to maximize profits may as well be the equivalent of how niche game developers try to squeeze blood from a stone on a shrinking niche because they're too stubborn to move on
 

ChitonIV

Member
Nov 14, 2021
2,306
Something to consider with Switch 2 and general attitude of third parties towards Nintendo platforms is the difficulty of competing against Nintendo's first party titles. Whether or not it's a warranted idea, third parties see Nintendo platforms as a place where Nintendo succeeds first, and others pick up the scraps, especially if you're not working directly with them with a publishing deal or exclusive marketing deal.
The entire problem for 3rd parties and Nintendo consoles since the Wii: is that Nintendo hardware has been a lot less powerful than Playstation/Xbox/PC.

Often, a game made with Playstation and Xbox in mind, can't scale down well enough to be a good experience representative of (insert game here) on Switch.

So then you either have to budget an entirely original game dedicated to Nintendo's hardware. Or.....skip Nintendo.

And making a dedicated game can be an even larger endeavor than one might think.

1. if you make the game part of an existing IP-----well then you have to wrangle with cannon, continuity, etc. And balancing that can either water down a game and/or alienate the main fanbase on other platforms. Its tricky.

2. making a whole new I.P.: Well we all know how tricky that can be. And to bother to do it while targeting one platform, its probably seen as relatively more risky. Sure, you can port other platforms. But the visuals won't be equivalent to the hardware on other platforms, which can affect sales.

3. Having to make a bespoke game for Nintendo hardware has almost always meant less overall budget. When's the last time you played a truly classic feeling CoD on a Nintendo console? They get the short end of the budget.

Nintendo has really strong IP. But, part of that is because they are able to focus all of their money and talent, into single versions of their games. So the games usually end up being technically sound, if not very good games within their genres.

Also, as a first party, their games are more deeply seeded to the arch of the total brand. And they can risk more on longer R&D for novel techniques, as well as longer bug and quality testing.

And in the end, if the next Mario sells poorly, Nintendo isn't going to shut its doors. Whereas a lot of developers live game to game. Or might be able to weather one game selling poorly. But then need a big success on the follow up, or it could end them.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,171
I wonder if all this negative sales talk pushes SE to annouce PC port dates for XVI and maybe a timeframe for Rebirth...?
 

Abrasion Test

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,860
I wonder if all this negative sales talk pushes SE to annouce PC port dates for XVI and maybe a timeframe for Rebirth...?
They really fucked themselves by not having those versions ready once the exclusivity periods ended. And now you have Dawntrail hitting this summer, probably eating potential sales from FF16 on PC, and then where do you put FF7 Rebirth?
 

DongBeetle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,437
I am laughing because the expectation that Switch 2 will be powerful enough to support the next mainline Final Fantasy is silly. The TDP is just not there on any chip on the market and is still far away. I doubt even FSR/DLSS can make up for it. Just look at the Ally or the Deck for frame of reference where the tech is.
Ally and Deck are on completely different architectures
 

Rickyrozay2o9

Member
Dec 11, 2017
4,725
They really fucked themselves by not having those versions ready once the exclusivity periods ended. And now you have Dawntrail hitting this summer, probably eating potential sales from FF16 on PC, and then where do you put FF7 Rebirth?
Yeah, regardless of how these games sell I can't understand why they are releasing a year+ AFTER the exclusive contract ends. Then again, most Sony exclusives release on PC 2 years after but that's another story all together, but both obviously need to change to maximize revenue.
 

ArcticWolf

Member
Nov 29, 2022
770
It's not PC players fault that Steam is 10 years ahead of the next best competitor lol

Ironically that 10 year advantage of Steam was gained when many other companies were blaming PC players for having a poor platform and as such the reason to not invest in it at the time.

So in a way it is PC players fault! Damn PC players, why'd you have to use a PC for gaming?
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
57,469
Competitors can learn from Steams mistakes, they have 10 years of hindsight to build a competitive platform. None do for some reason.
This is like saying you can learn from Google's mistake and 30 years of hindsight to build a competitive search engine. Steam is so entrenched and defacto that it's not that easy and even if there was an identical feature set alternative to Steam (if feature is what matters) why would you bother splitting up your library
 

silentq15

Member
Aug 15, 2022
547
This is like saying you can learn from Google's mistake and 30 years of hindsight to build a competitive search engine. Steam is so entrenched and defacto that it's not that easy and even if there was an identical feature set alternative to Steam (if feature is what matters) why would you bother splitting up your library
I know it's not popular opinion but can you really blame EGS for trying to get some exclusives? Like you said it's not easy to compete against something so entrenched and defacto. While it's inconvenient I honestly have no idea what other way EGS could wrestle some market share away from Steam without taking big games away from it. If anybody has any better idea if you were in their shoes please tell me?
 

foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,654
Okay I lol'd at the summer school comment.

But I don't think anyone quoting you was under the impression this is about Japan - PS is waffling there and Xbox is already in the casket - it's clear Squeenix is looking to do multiplatform worldwide, where the largest pool of money is. I wouldn't be surprised if their game sales in Japan are some of their smallest for traditional consoles.

They are killing it on Switch and PC there however, so I could see Day 1 in Japan being a thing for those machines (in the case of the Switch/Switch 2, only if it's feasible).

Regardless I think anyone not happy with this change in direction is doing so in bad faith, Squeenix is in rough shape and while it's due to a multitude of things that have compounded over the years, ridding themselves of exclusivity is definitely a net positive for the industry AND consumers.
The thing about final fantasy Is that a pretty big percent of its sales comes from Japan still. Square cant go "the west will save us" because the west isn't Saving them and FF is losing more and more relevance in Japan because they keep just putting it on PS, but the mainstream isn't buying PlayStation, they're buying switches.

And the thing about the switch is, it's been on the market for over 7 years now, that's 7 years of the brand not growing and people growing up not on FF the way we did with the earlier FFs like 6, 7, or 10
 

ArcticWolf

Member
Nov 29, 2022
770
I know it's not popular opinion but can you really blame EGS for trying to get some exclusives? Like you said it's not easy to compete against something so entrenched and defacto. While it's inconvenient I honestly have no idea what other way EGS could wrestle some market share away from Steam without taking big games away from it. If anybody has any better idea if you were in their shoes please tell me?

Nothing the Epic games store did is illegal, immoral, or outright 'villainous' (that I'm aware of) so one can not "blame" it's actions as such but within that same breath one can also not blame anyone for reacting negatively to it any way for its actions. A company is not owed patronage, users, or even accolades because market share is desired.

You can't blame it but none are obliged accept it either. I think the topic like this is honestly on the cusp of a larger subject that'll lead us to inherent flaws of capitalism, copyright law, and such that I'm just going to leave it at that.
 
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duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,988
Singapore
I know it's not popular opinion but can you really blame EGS for trying to get some exclusives? Like you said it's not easy to compete against something so entrenched and defacto. While it's inconvenient I honestly have no idea what other way EGS could wrestle some market share away from Steam without taking big games away from it. If anybody has any better idea if you were in their shoes please tell me?
I'm not sure what the question serves to address. What is the purpose of the Epic Game Store to begin with? If it is just a storefront, then it doesn't really need to wrestle market share away from anyone else. Just like how bookstores all co-exist and aim to be viable stores on their own merits. If the Epic Game Store serves to provide a platform on its own for Epic to sell their games, then is that not enough? It would be the same model that EA, Ubisoft, etc operate on.

If I were in Epic's shoes I would simply ask myself why I am running a storefront if I am not spending any resources into making it a good user experience for those who choose to use it, before I ask myself what exclusives I should spend money on trying to get.

You don't see anyone trash talking GOG as a platform, or Green Man Gaming as a digital web storefront. Cause their business models are self-sustaining and offer something people want, be it deeper discounts, no-DRM, or whatever. What does Epic Game Store offer other than annoyance? Lots of free games I guess. That was nice, but not a sustainable business model for them. They gotta figure it out and if they don't, maybe they don't need to run a storefront. Not everyone does.
 

belairjeff

J->E Localization
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,351
If i were square management, I'd absolutely be focused on getting all the recent final fantasy games ready to run on switch 2 hardware. I think audiences are shifting and the audience that plays JRPGs are going to be swaying more towards nintendo consoles in the future.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,988
Singapore
If i were square management, I'd absolutely be focused on getting all the recent final fantasy games ready to run on switch 2 hardware. I think audiences are shifting and the audience that plays JRPGs are going to be swaying more towards nintendo consoles in the future.
Would that actually solve the problem that Square Enix has though? They want the 10+ million blockbuster winner. I'm not sure any platform is going to be able to give them that if they make the games they do and expect that level of success. I don't think the audience that plays JRPGs are necessarily enough here. Maybe what Square Enix also needs to do aside from a multiplatform strategy, is to either decide they want to downsize and be a smaller company making Atlus-tier games to great profitability, or stop making JRPGs and make games that a wide mainstream audience actually wants to buy.
 

Rickyrozay2o9

Member
Dec 11, 2017
4,725
If i were square management, I'd absolutely be focused on getting all the recent final fantasy games ready to run on switch 2 hardware. I think audiences are shifting and the audience that plays JRPGs are going to be swaying more towards nintendo consoles in the future.
I definitely think they need to see what it brings in. Obviously putting FF on the Switch 2 won't hurt but who really knows what the gains will be. More than likely they need to check the reception of a few titles and decide from there.

FF as a brand though just isn't as dominant anymore in regards to the 10m+ mark but with good marketing and multiple platforms 5-7m minimum should be doable for these titles. The 7 series though clearly being split doesn't really help but for mainlines like 16, if that was released on PC day and date as a decent to good port I'm sure it would have hit 5 instead of 3 or whatever it was. Then fast forward to 17 and likely it'll make even more but you gotta start somewhere and build up.
 

unknown_nut

Member
Sep 12, 2022
1,633
Ironically that 10 year advantage of Steam was gained when many other companies were blaming PC players for having a poor platform and as such the reason to not invest in it at the time.

So in a way it is PC players fault! Damn PC players, why'd you have to use a PC for gaming?
Tim was one of those casting blame on PC players in the past and no we don't forget that shit. Tim just wants what Steam have without working for it.
 

silentq15

Member
Aug 15, 2022
547
I'm not sure what the question serves to address. What is the purpose of the Epic Game Store to begin with? If it is just a storefront, then it doesn't really need to wrestle market share away from anyone else. Just like how bookstores all co-exist and aim to be viable stores on their own merits. If the Epic Game Store serves to provide a platform on its own for Epic to sell their games, then is that not enough? It would be the same model that EA, Ubisoft, etc operate on.

If I were in Epic's shoes I would simply ask myself why I am running a storefront if I am not spending any resources into making it a good user experience for those who choose to use it, before I ask myself what exclusives I should spend money on trying to get.

You don't see anyone trash talking GOG as a platform, or Green Man Gaming as a digital web storefront. Cause their business models are self-sustaining and offer something people want, be it deeper discounts, no-DRM, or whatever. What does Epic Game Store offer other than annoyance? Lots of free games I guess. That was nice, but not a sustainable business model for them. They gotta figure it out and if they don't, maybe they don't need to run a storefront. Not everyone does.
It comes up a lot with Square and EGS and their dealings. Like I totally agree it's annoying but at the same time I am not opposed to somebody trying to compete with Steam in this way because at the end of the day it's healthy for the PC Games market place. The more the merrier if in the long term we have competition on price.

My question was really in response to some takes that EGS so so bad but honestly I just can't blame them trying to standout with exclusives because they are competing with somebody that has a near monopoly on the PC Game Marketplace.

This is coming from somebody who loves Steam uses Greenman, and GOG too. I just personally never saw the issue with what Epic was doing.

Also yes they should improve the experience but it's also a little overblown how bad it is. It has Cloud Saves, Achievements, and Launches the games, could it have more of course but it gets the job done.
 
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Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,171
The thing about final fantasy Is that a pretty big percent of its sales comes from Japan still. Square cant go "the west will save us" because the west isn't Saving them and FF is losing more and more relevance in Japan because they keep just putting it on PS, but the mainstream isn't buying PlayStation, they're buying switches.

And the thing about the switch is, it's been on the market for over 7 years now, that's 7 years of the brand not growing and people growing up not on FF the way we did with the earlier FFs like 6, 7, or 10

Yeah I would not be shocked to see their missed expectations for XVI and Rebirth were due to Japanese sales for each titles being down 500k-1million than what was expected, espcially from the PS5 userbase. Thats a huge chunk of missed revenue and PC sales there could make the difference (since the PC market has been exploding there).
 

RUFF BEEST

Banned
Jun 10, 2022
2,186
Toronto, ON
I just want Square games on Nvidia GeForce Now plzkthx. I have a fair collection of them on Steam but only one beefy gaming PC. For my laptops and Legion Go to be able to play Square games would just be huge.

Failing that they need to figure out how to ship on Switch and win Japan back because it ain't happening without Nintendo.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,806
On one hand I think these games going multiplatform is good, on another hand I don't really understand why they fell short of expectations (aside from Foamstars which would have been a flop on any platform imo). SE released games that sold ~80%ish on PS4 when the PS4 had a similar install base. Is the PS5 install base just not interested in playing single-player RPGs in the same way the PS4 install base was? Were Square's expectations just unrealistically high for basically no reason? Is the public just less interested in FF16 and Rebirth because they didn't have the same hype as FF15 and Remake?

It's not like PS5 hardware sales are lagging behind PS4 to a significant degree, it's sold nearly 60 million units which seems good for less than half the generation being over, especially considering how supply constrained things were at the start.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,988
Singapore
It comes up a lot with Square and EGS and their dealings. Like I totally agree it's annoying but at the same time I am not opposed to somebody trying to compete with Steam in this way because at the end of the day it's healthy for the PC Games market place. The more the merrier if in the long term we have competition on price.

My question was really in response to some takes that EGS so so bad but honestly I just can't blame them trying to standout with exclusives because they are competing with somebody that has a near monopoly on the PC Game Marketplace.

This is coming from somebody who loves Steam uses Greenman, and GOG too. I just personally never saw the issue with what Epic was doing.

Also yes they should improve the experience but it's also a little overblown how bad it is. It has Cloud Saves, Achievements, and Launches the games, could it have more of course but it gets the job done.
No one is "blaming" them or anything. Don't know why you frame it that way. People are saying it is bad business and it's stupid. It's a critique of how EGS has no value to offer the market and hence has to buy exclusives as a pathetic attempt to appear to have value. You see, Steam, GOG, GMG, etc simply sell games. They don't want or need to pursue exclusives because they are simply operating as stores that people want to buy games from. Steam has the majority of customers yes, but simply because they offer the best value and you can't compete with a good deal that is sustainable. Why would people shop elsewhere if its not in their best interest? That's not a monopoly, that's just market dynamics.

EGS comes in, tries to do business, and clearly fails to have any impact because they have nothing to offer. So take it as a bookstore opening in a mall that already has 3 bookstores and there is one particular one that is very successful because it provides customers with exactly what they need. The bookstore struggles to compete. They pay some publishers to ensure only they can sell some books. It doesn't really work, customers that like shopping at their regulars stores complain and wonder why the books aren't being sold in their store of choice. Said books suffer in sales because of the deal. The store making the deals also suffers because people now dislike them for being an upstart that tries to buy into a market that has no room for them.

Is there any moral fault here? Nope. Can I blame the business for trying this? Nope. Will I laugh at them for being terrible at business and not offering anything worthwhile to the market? Of course.

That's what generally happens to EGS. They are mocked for being losers. Nothing more.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,171
I've seen people say this a few times recently, here. But, where is this info coming from? I mean I'm wondering how to get an ear into Japanese PC gaming trends.

Geez, I wish I could tell you but I have heard it on here mentioned several times. Online gaming is going insane over in Japan and that is what people have spectulated so many Ps5s are being used for.
 

Ascheroth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,968
If i were square management, I'd absolutely be focused on getting all the recent final fantasy games ready to run on switch 2 hardware. I think audiences are shifting and the audience that plays JRPGs are going to be swaying more towards nintendo consoles in the future.
I actually think beyond that, a good part of that audience is on mobile these days, particulary in Japan and probably Asia in general.
Gachas are huge in Asia. And while Gacha is not a genre, a lot of them share many similarities with JRPGs at their core. I think previously, most of them were too stripped back in presentation and mechanics and also treated as "lesser" games, but recent games like Genshin and Honkai: Star Rail and upcoming ones like Wuthering Waves are basically indistinguishable from "real" console and PC games (and are also available and popular on those platforms) but also just happen to run on mobile devices.
Typically single-player games and GaaS are seen as their own markets with not that much overlap - you have your multiplayer shooter players in one corner and your singleplayer one-and-done players in the other, but things get murkier when suddenly your GaaS are also single-player focused, like it is with most popular Gachas.
 

Gure

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
818
Geez, I wish I could tell you but I have heard it on here mentioned several times. Online gaming is going insane over in Japan and that is what people have spectulated so many Ps5s are being used for.
Mainly F2P though. Apex, Valorant, TFT and Fortnite exploded on PC in Japan, but it'a all F2P market.
People who don't have PC's there, buy PS5's to play Apex or Genshin, not FF.
Also, Switch is king there, but we all know that.
 
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Sir Lucan

Member
Dec 19, 2023
855
I think they should make their IPs easier to follow in general.

Making everything multiplatform is the first step, yes. But I feel like they should reconsider how they do sequels in general as well. Splitting a remake into 3 parts was not a good idea. And with KH4 they should not expect you to play a million games before it to know what's going on (I hope this is the case with KH4 since it's apparently a new arc). The more someone can pick up your game randomly and have a good time, the better.