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Sony patents a new system of backward compatibility
- Thread starter patapon
- Start date
Oh they have proven that over the years by bringing out memory cards that were not compatible with their own laptops and cameras, OS of their copnsoles thats always a few years behind in functionality to MS and which has a higher footprint, the PS Classic etcetera. I could go on but I wont.
Borderlands 2 allowed that long before it became backward compatible on XBox One and also did it between PS3 and PS4 where it is not BC.
How can you patent a concept (emulation) that has existed since the 80s? Yes I understand this pertains to « backwards compatibility » but the overall thing is so vague as to make every emulator infringe on that patent... which means the patent should never have been granted in the first place
The method sounds like HLE implementation, we've had various examples of such practices for over 2 decades. Cycle accurate emulators have existed also for decades now
Maybe this is more than it appears to be...using this method PS5 will be fully backwards compatible with PS1,PS2,PS3,PS4,XBox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, Switch...
...or not :P
...or not :P
I haven't seen anything warrenting a patent in this so far and it's in terms vague enough that it could have broad effects.
I guess if Sony ever goes against anyone using HLE types of emulation, the people will be able to provide previous works to support their case
I think this patent is way beyond your comprehension of the whole subject considering the high profile people behind it. It's just a patent of said developer's method of achieving backwards compatibility for their application. Who cares.
Maybe you should petition the patent board if your so concerned?
Yes I'm concerned for the future when a company that has been known to actively shut down emulation and emulators in the past through prosecution is trying to patent hle implementations in a rather broad definition.
But by all means, carry on not carring. And I have no recourses against a patent bureau outside of my country of residence /duh
What are you talking about? Why do you care of this patent , I am not even talking about BC, you seem awful concerned about the patent. Time will tell if BC will come but all signs point to PS5 having it, even devs have hinted at it. Companies file hundreds of these a year, it is what it is.
Nintendo never prosecuted emulators. Sony did (Bleem and this other emulator and got both out of business by bankrupting them and buying up the second one after the fact)
Are you looking at the translated summary or the U.S. version of the same patent? The translation is vague as expected, the actual specific language of the patent is extremely important. From what I saw of the U.S. patent, it's just talking about the CPU ID being changed for a processor running in a compatibility mode; basically, something that really only applies to the PS4 Pro. Emulators typically don't run in a compatibility mode on the CPU, the Xbox One X is probably running at regular speed for older Xbox One games, and FPGAs aren't CPUs (this one could get tricky if Sony decided to get pissy about a future PS1 MIST project).
Granted, I could be wrong as I only skimmed the patent; like I said, exact language is important and I'm definitely not a patent lawyer. There's usually some scattered "including, but not limited to" phrases that increase the scope, but that's probably where it can be contested easily.
As to why Sony patented it, I'm not sure, but it could be partially to prevent someone else patenting it given it applies to them, and it could be in case someone else like MS ended up doing something similar. There were rumors from the early days of the Tegra, long before the Switch was dreamt of, that the Tegra was designed to have easily uploaded microcode so that it could act as different CPUs.
Emulators as far back as Chameleon (ST emulator for the Amiga) or Shapeshifter (Mac emulator for the Amiga too) have used methods similar to what is described (within a given family of processors). IBM/Motorola even had a 68k interpretation mode within the first generation of CPUs to properly and cycle accurately execute 68k code, thus enabling backwards compatibility with classic mac systems (before te switch to full ppc architecture) and that was in the mid 90s.
To me this sounds very similar to previous cpu and os based backward compatibility and so far it's too vague to clearly see what's so patent worthy about it.
But hey, I could be concerned over nothing, but it's better this way than just say « yeahh backwards compatibility ftw!! » (which is always a good thing)
Those are excellent examples, but I was mainly thinking of modern software emulation where it's a CPU running at full speed to try to interpret instructions.
Based on your examples and what gebler posted below, I'm not sure how this patent avoids prior art claims. I guess this is where lawyers earn their keep.
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shouldn't be too hard, my PS3 cloud saves from ages ago surprisingly still worked on PSNOW with the PS3 games. Was surprised how seamless it was.
No, that principle is just about the priority between two parties applying for patents on the same invention. The invention must still be original with respect to known existing inventions (prior art), whether patented or not. Since patent examiners have imperfect knowledge of prior art, they can sometimes grant a patent that should never have been granted due to prior art. Such mistakes can be corrected by overturning the patent in court, which happens occasionally when the owner of the patent tries to enforce it.
The rise of digital sales and gaas titles certainly makes BC more important next gen. Outside of massive sale prices, I've been hesitant in the past to buy digital items on PSN because I've been unsure of carrying my library over. It's silly to dismiss the importance of BC when there are so many reasons why it benefits gamers.
Thanks for the clarification, I've seen a lot of confusing info since the U.S. changed to first to file. It sounds like the examples Fularu posted would count as prior art if I understood the patent correctly.
For what it's worth, I've been going off the patent referenced in this post:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/so...ward-compatibility.97039/page-4#post-17467793
The PS5 will 100% be full BC (Disc+Digital PSN libraries including non-lapsed Plus download).
Additional BC, if true, would be fantastic.
I'm not sure why people doubt Sony for BC, perhaps they're just very young and don't know?
The history :
PS1. No BC applies obviously.
PS2. Basically 100% full BC. Later models a bit less so, but overall a strong effort.
PS3. First models awesome BC. Three gens in one. Market forces caused them to pursue cheapening up the system so this was less effective on later revs.
PS4. Being a pretty generic x86 8-core netbook CPU @ 1.6Ghz compared to 7+1 3.2Ghz SPE Cell, full PS3 emu was out the door. It was disappointing that PS1/PS2 emu didn't get any push, even the digital offerings there were bad, but it was actually on par with X1 in this way all the way until MS pushed their excellent (but not perfect) BC program.
So three out of four PS platforms so far launched with as good of BC as one could really expect. PS4 they could have done better by having solid PS1/2 emulation, but other than that, I don't have too many complaints.
What I really hope happens is disc-based direct emulation for PS1/PS2. If it relies on particular games being added to a BC list, and so on, that would be annoying, and probably leave tons of games never emulated on PS5. I can't play Mechassault 1 or 2 on my X, amongst a number of other 'lost' titles, because they didn't enable the user to just run an emulator in a tray and play mode for things they might have licensing issues with.
Overall I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did have a full tray and play PS1/2/3 mode on PS5, but I guarantee they will have full disc/digital PS4 support.
Additional BC, if true, would be fantastic.
I'm not sure why people doubt Sony for BC, perhaps they're just very young and don't know?
The history :
PS1. No BC applies obviously.
PS2. Basically 100% full BC. Later models a bit less so, but overall a strong effort.
PS3. First models awesome BC. Three gens in one. Market forces caused them to pursue cheapening up the system so this was less effective on later revs.
PS4. Being a pretty generic x86 8-core netbook CPU @ 1.6Ghz compared to 7+1 3.2Ghz SPE Cell, full PS3 emu was out the door. It was disappointing that PS1/PS2 emu didn't get any push, even the digital offerings there were bad, but it was actually on par with X1 in this way all the way until MS pushed their excellent (but not perfect) BC program.
So three out of four PS platforms so far launched with as good of BC as one could really expect. PS4 they could have done better by having solid PS1/2 emulation, but other than that, I don't have too many complaints.
What I really hope happens is disc-based direct emulation for PS1/PS2. If it relies on particular games being added to a BC list, and so on, that would be annoying, and probably leave tons of games never emulated on PS5. I can't play Mechassault 1 or 2 on my X, amongst a number of other 'lost' titles, because they didn't enable the user to just run an emulator in a tray and play mode for things they might have licensing issues with.
Overall I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did have a full tray and play PS1/2/3 mode on PS5, but I guarantee they will have full disc/digital PS4 support.
I'm not dismissing it per se, I'm only questioning how often the FIFA/COD/Battlefield players will use it. Again, I will, WE will, but we're the minority. we've seen support dwindle beyond the first years, historically, particularly if it's not a hardware based solution.
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I strongly doubt this, particularly for PS3 stuff. Even if it's possible, I think staggered releases of titles on a case by case basis builds social media buzz for the releases and the feature. Turning up on release day and saying "it'll play everything" is a bit of a one-and-done in terms of ongoing mind-share.
As someone who has zero understanding of this stuff the description almost reminds me of the explanation I got about how FPGA consoles like the Super Nt work. In short, it sounds complicated. lol
If you read my post I'm clearly talking about PS4 libraries (disc+digital+plus) there. That will all be there day one. Their digital momentum with PSN becoming absolutely massive makes it an impossibility to ignore or risk derailing their entire corporation.
PS3 wise remains to be seen. Obviously a tray and play level of emulation would work immediately, but I don't feel like that's extremely likely.
I like what Microsoft has been doing for sure (and it's how I finished Red Dead Redemption), but they're limited by the realities of business too. Probably only half my games work and I suppose only a handful of those run in 4K.
I can wait. When Xbox 360 emulation on PC improves, I'll be able to play every game I have in any resolution I want. Most importantly though is I'll be able to back up my saves to Dropbox in a convenient fashion.
Oh I understand that, and I understand that it's not 100% BC for all the games on xbox. But it's kind of nice to be able to go back to something like Gears, Red DEAD, Fable with enhanced performance.
I hope they keep adding to it. I also hope Sony is doing the same, and I don't expect Nintendo to do anything honestly at this point. I think going the PC route is a smart choice in retaining players.
Ditto. I mean I really really appreciate what MS has done with their BC program, just as the PS1/PS2/PS3 gens had great BC. PS4 was the odd man out of their lineup, and at least for PS3 it was for actual limiting reasons (a PS4 w/Cell+RDRAM+Nvidia module would have been at least $499, and Jag never had a chance of emulating PS3).
At the same time, I think MS BC would be literally perfect if they added an unlockable (for those prepared to have to tinker with settings possibly, or deal with imperfections in emulation) mode where it just runs a base OG or 360 mode, plop in a disc, and go. Their current mode has to cover both licensing and enhancement/validation, and results in massive swathes of titles that are left out. Thus, there are some fantastic classics that are not (and won't be, sadly) brought in unless they offered something like that. As I said in another post, Mechassault series for me amongst others :)
Maybe we can prod some MS guys to see if they'd be willing to talk about it. It would be a nice nod to their loyal customer base going back to OG.
To be fair, support changed this gen for the better. True that the CoD/FIFA/BF players may not have much use for the feature but there are a lot of games released this gen that would benefit from BC support. Look at all the benefits we have this gen, higher resolutions, better performance, better filtering, faster loading, etc. and apply them to our current gen games next gen. That's huge IMO. We also know that games like PUBG, Fortnite, Apex, Anthem, BF5, SoT, etc. will still have players in 2020. It would be a nice win to be able to pick up where gamers left off on launch day of these next gen consoles.
BC can breathe new life into titles and come close to a remaster in ways. That's another reason why we should hope it's implemented well next gen.
That patent is about a rather narrow aspect of backward-compatibility (avoiding unnecessary incompatibilities from CPUID-like instructions influencing program behavior) and Fularu's examples do not seem to be about that narrow aspect. As far as I know, the 68k didn't even have a CPUID-like instruction, so it wouldn't be an issue in the first place. But not being patented does not disqualify something from being prior art. Being patented helps establish the prior art, but an actual product that uses the invention, published technical documentation describing it, etc, would also do.
It's all about PR battles. I want Sony to not let MS get any free shots at them next gen to ensure a successful launch. Imagine the tweets all top MS employees would be spouting at the reveal. Plus BC locks in their PS4 user base.
I still remain unconvinced. Especially as Lisa Su commented to Phil Spencer during her keynote that engineering the silicon to get backwards compatibility working (PowerPC to amd64) was a helluva lot of work, I can't see Sony doing that when they have a perfectly workable solution in PS Now.
I think they'll come up with a story about how they've got new features in the PS5 APU that will make next gen games look/perform better but that makes BC problematic so if you want to play PS4 games, subscribe to PS Now.
I think they'll come up with a story about how they've got new features in the PS5 APU that will make next gen games look/perform better but that makes BC problematic so if you want to play PS4 games, subscribe to PS Now.
I believe it's just a Japanese version of the fifth patent in your list, "Spoofing cpuid for backwards compatibility". Mentioning the PSX, PS2, and PS3 in this context seems bogus, since the patent only makes sense for minimizing compatibility issues between CPUs sharing the same basic instruction set, such as those within the x86 family. It would make sense if the patent came out of BC work for the PS5 relative to the PS4 / PS4 Pro. Same thing with the other patents on your list, really.
This, I think Sony knows that BC will be a key feature to ensuring the success of the PS5.