Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

Fruity Loops · Nov 20, 2017

Recently, I have read numerous articles that outlined how socialist and communist countries were actually better off than capitalist ones. Most of the deaths under communism were actually just people that tried to destroy the system because they were too greedy to share the resources they had appropriated from the workers.

People are waking up.

Capitalism is the most evil and deadly ideology ever devised. You could not come up with a more dehumanizing and oppressive system if you tried.

HarryHengst · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
Well, it's been the only system that's lasted. It's a complete fairy tale to believe that there could ever be a system where there is no corruption, no greedy people, everyone has everything they need etc. As good as it looks a Star Trek Utopia is completely incapable of ever happening due to the nature of man.

Capitalism makes people greedy, as its the only way you can survive under capitalism. A system that guarantees that needs like housing, healthcare, food, education etc are met will create radically different people.

House_Of_Lightning · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
I think if anything, the USSR as well as other communist states show that socialism can never work long-term. No matter what system you have, the fact is the biggest assholes/jackasses/greedy people will always end up prominently making up the top of whatever system you have. They will always, of course, put themselves and their interests above those below them. It always has and always will be that way to one extent or another. I'd even argue that most people that champion against the rich and powerful were they to become rich and powerful would end up turning into some horrible people that oppress and exploit others for personal gain. Power corrupts, and no one is immune to it, even those that will talk against it.

None of those States were Communist.

House_Of_Lightning · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops said:
Recently, I have read numerous articles that outlined how socialist and communist countries were actually better off than capitalist ones. Most of the deaths under communism were actually just people that tried to destroy the system because they were too greedy to share the resources they had appropriated from the workers.

You shouldn't be reading articles from stalindidnothingwrong.blogspot.ru.

Mezentine · Nov 20, 2017

I mean there's a reason I very specifically frame criticism of communist socialist states, past and present, as "why didn't this work the way we want socialism to work". I don't believe past history shows that anything is impossible, just that all the ways in which they have failed should be incredibly instructive to us about how things go bad and what we need to be on the defensive towards

House_Of_Lightning · Nov 20, 2017

That's ultimately why I also don't write them off. Socialism is a movement, an event, implementation, etc. The working class will have to make mistakes on their way to abolishing capital.

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
So then, what is there to discuss? It's something we'll always have, best just to work hard within the system you live in instead of expecting the government to give you stuff. Just like JFK said: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country", words to live by.

Enjoy more and more wealth concentrating in the hands of fewer and fewer people.

That you equate socialism with "gubbmint gimme free stuff" is telling. Same with your "just work harder". Way to imply that nobody with financial success can be pro-socialism.

Azureth · Nov 20, 2017

Lafiel said:
Sorry this argument is just silly. You are basically arguing that we shouldn't strive to create a better society or envision that a another society is possible. But yet under modern capitalism there is a increasing wealth divide between the haves and have-nots and ecological destruction through Capitalism complete failure to posit solutions to the environment question. If we have to accept this is the best we've got then we're screwed.

So what is your attitude to the everyday situation of a boss cutting it's workers wages by 40%? Do we have to accept that as the natural way of things or do we stand up, organise our fellow workers and fight back against such injustice? As a socialist I'll live and die by always opting for the latter, whereas the practical fruit that politics brings forth is just accepting the status quo. Which quite frankly I don't think is good enough.

So then I guess you think people like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Zuckerburg etc. should start writing every person a few thousand dollar checks?

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
So then I guess you think people like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Zuckerburg etc. should start writing every person a few thousand dollar checks?

Taxation. It is called taxation, and wealth redistribution.

Something like 3 men in the US have as much wealth as the bottom 50%.

We actually can quite easily afford to tax the top 20% or so, and make social services readily available to the poor. Things like healthcare and education.

Other countries do that already! Even Capitalist ones like Norway!

Azureth · Nov 20, 2017

corn93 said:
Enjoy more and more wealth concentrating in the hands of fewer and fewer people.

That you equate socialism with "gubbmint gimme free stuff" is telling. Same with your "just work harder". Way to imply that nobody with financial success can be pro-socialism.

Good luck spending the rest of eternity trying to think of a system that can effectively bypass human greed, and corruption. Will never happen.

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
Good luck spending the rest of eternity trying to think of a system that can effectively bypass human greed, and corruption. Will never happen.

K.

So just to clarify you want 0 taxes, and 0 laws?

Pulp · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
Good luck spending the rest of eternity trying to think of a system that can effectively bypass human greed, and corruption. Will never happen.

Seems like a rather bleak look on humanity as a whole

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Literal slavery (beyond wage slavery) still exists. If you are anti-slavery you are a total fool because good luck bypassing human greed and corruption. Clearly the solution is to just be morally fine with slavery.

Bonen no Max'd · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
Well, it's been the only system that's lasted. It's a complete fairy tale to believe that there could ever be a system where there is no corruption, no greedy people, everyone has everything they need etc. As good as it looks a Star Trek Utopia is completely incapable of ever happening due to the nature of man.

You say "only system that's ever lasted" but capitalism has only been around a few hundred years and is hurling us towards ecological disaster and collapse.

Do you shrug off every injustice as "the way the world is"? "People are naturally tribal and racist so it's just working against Human Nature to try and build racial and ethnic equality." "It's only natural that stronger nations should colonize the weak, and the implication that they shouldn't is a children's fantasy"

You are aware that like, social democratic welfare states exist right. They aren't Real Socialism but by your same logic they shouldn't be capable of existing.

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

How can you be against global warming and ecological disaster? Are you (lol) trying to subvert and bypass human greed?

Sibylus · Nov 20, 2017

"Because people are irredeemable" is the worst possible endorsement one can think of for anything.

Azureth · Nov 20, 2017

Bonen no Max'd said:
You say "only system that's ever lasted" but capitalism has only been around a few hundred years and is hurling us towards ecological disaster and collapse.

Do you shrug off every injustice as "the way the world is"? "People are naturally tribal and racist so it's just working against Human Nature to try and build racial and ethnic equality." "It's only natural that stronger nations should colonize the weak, and the implication that they shouldn't is a children's fantasy"

You are aware that like, social democratic welfare states exist right. They aren't Real Socialism but by your same logic they shouldn't be capable of existing.

The only places people are starving is in socialist ratholes.
It doesn't work, it fails everywhere its tried, have you even lived in a socialist country, I have.
I have experience, you have opinion.

Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
The only places people are starving is in socialist ratholes.
It doesn't work, it fails everywhere its tried, have you even lived in a socialist country, I have.
I have experience, you have opinion.

"The only places people are starving is in socialist ratholes". Sureeeeeeeee

Mezentine · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
The only places people are starving is in socialist ratholes.
It doesn't work, it fails everywhere its tried, have you even lived in a socialist country, I have.
I have experience, you have opinion.

Call me crazy but I don't think you're arguing in good faith

House_Of_Lightning · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
I have.

No you haven't.

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
The only places people are starving is in socialist ratholes.

You played your hand too early, and too clumsily. There's literally not a single soul on Earth that can sincerely believe this. Your post is worthy of r/the_donald.

Fruity Loops · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
The only places people are starving is in socialist ratholes.
It doesn't work, it fails everywhere its tried, have you even lived in a socialist country, I have.
I have experience, you have opinion.

You are a liar. I have been to Venezuela and other "evil communist" countries. They are beautiful and thriving. Nobody is starving. Nobody is forced to work. Everybody is happy and can live life however they choose.

You fell for capitalist propaganda and are now describing a fever dream you concocted in order to dissuade the people speaking the truth from reestablishing the natural order.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

saturnineCarrier · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
The only places people are starving is in socialist ratholes.
It doesn't work, it fails everywhere its tried, have you even lived in a socialist country, I have.
I have experience, you have opinion.

Fruity Loops said:
You are a liar. I have been to Venezuela and other "evil communist" countries. They are beautiful and thriving. Nobody is starving. Nobody is forced to work. Everybody is happy and can live life however they choose.

You fell for capitalist propaganda and are now describing a fever dream you concocted in order to dissuade the people speaking the truth from reestablishing the natural order.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

bruh

Mezentine · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops said:
You are a liar. I have been to Venezuela and other "evil communist" countries. They are beautiful and thriving. Nobody is starving. Nobody is forced to work. Everybody is happy and can live life however they choose.

You fell for capitalist propaganda and are now describing a fever dream you concocted in order to dissuade the people speaking the truth from reestablishing the natural order.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

We uh

We may have swung a bit here

pigeon · Nov 20, 2017

What if the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes

CHEEZMO™ · Nov 20, 2017

oh god a tankie

Azureth · Nov 20, 2017

quit impeding job creation and economic growth with over-burdensome regulations and taxes. Those are the things that kill entrepreneurship and corporate expansion, the two most critical ingredients of job creation; i.e., employment.

pigeon · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
quit impeding job creation and economic growth with over-burdensome regulations and taxes. Those are the things that kill entrepreneurship and corporate expansion, the two most critical ingredients of job creation; i.e., employment.

Another rentier heard from

wonzo · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops · Nov 20, 2017

saturnineCarrier said:
bruh

Mezentine said:
We uh

We may have swung a bit here

CHEEZMO™ said:
oh god a tankie

House_Of_Lightning said:
You shouldn't be reading articles from stalindidnothingwrong.blogspot.ru.

Ridiculing me for having mainstream views that are based on the actual reality of the situation; can't say I did not expect that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/07/opinion/lenin-environment-siberia.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/29/opinion/sunday/when-communism-inspired-americans.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/26/opinion/finland-station-communism-socialism.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/women-china-communist-revolution.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/opinion/new-york-american-communism.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opinion/why-women-had-better-sex-under-socialism.html

You can laugh now. The day the revolution comes, you will have to come to grips about the suffering you have created by not telling the truth when it was vital.
I hope it will have been worth it.

Sibylus · Nov 20, 2017

pigeon said:
What if the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes

Ordinarily agreeing with this sentiment would be akin to chewing glass for me, but whew.

Fruity Loops · Nov 20, 2017

Sibylus said:
Ordinarily agreeing with this sentiment would be akin to chewing glass for me, but whew.

Compromising with Gamergate: Stalk, rape, and harass only half the women.
Compromising with the Alt-Right: Give us half a genocide against minorities and queer people.
Compromising with Nazis: Gas only 3 million Jews.

How well does that work?

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
quit impeding job creation and economic growth with over-burdensome regulations and taxes. Those are the things that kill entrepreneurship and corporate expansion, the two most critical ingredients of job creation; i.e., employment.

So I've reported this post, because it is clear you are invading a community thread purely to thread shit and make low effort troll posts.

Sibylus · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops said:
Compromising with Gamergate: Stalk, rape, and harass only half the women.
Compromising with the Alt-Right: Give us half a genocide against minorities and queer people.
Compromising with Nazis: Gas only 3 million Jews.

How well does that work?

You misread me quite badly: neither those three extremes you offered nor the usual "the truth is somewhere in the middle!" mediocre centrism are something I agree with. It was a wry observation.

Fruity Loops · Nov 20, 2017

Sibylus said:
You misread me quite badly: neither those three extremes you offered nor the usual "the truth is somewhere in the middle!" mediocre centrism are something I agree with. It was a wry observation.

Alright, but your earlier post still looks like you had some opposition to socialism.

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops said:
You are a liar. I have been to Venezuela and other "evil communist" countries. They are beautiful and thriving. Nobody is starving. Nobody is forced to work. Everybody is happy and can live life however they choose.

Venezuela as far as I know is not a utopia.

You can make the argument that this isn't the fault of Socialist economic policy quite easily, but you cannot simply pretend their problems do not exist.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-led-economic-war-not-socialism-tearing-venezuela-apart/218335/
https://extranewsfeed.com/socialism...ialist-propaganda-w-actual-logic-de587c1a299a
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...enezuelan-economy-despite-chavez-crusade.html

pigeon · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops said:
Alright, but your earlier post still looks like you had some opposition to socialism.

I think they mostly have an opposition to living in Animal Farm

sphagnum · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops, I don't know if you're trolling or if you genuinely believe that there are no problems in Venezuela or historical socialist states. If it's the former, there are better things to do on the internet. If it's the latter, you're seriously looking at socialist history with an uncritical eye.

Azureth · Nov 20, 2017

corn93 said:
So I've reported this post, because it is clear you are invading a community thread purely to thread shit and make low effort troll posts.

What? How so? Just making observations. Also love how you go on to say you reported a post instead of actually discussing the situation and replying to what I said.

pigeon · Nov 20, 2017

sphagnum said:
Fruity Loops, I don't know if you're trolling or if you genuinely believe that there are no problems in Venezuela or historical socialist states. If it's the former, there are better things to do on the internet.

Point of order

Sibylus · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops said:
Alright, but your earlier post still looks like you had some opposition to socialism.

Not so, just to overly simplistic history (either in regard to its achievements or its horrors). We mustn't forget to scrutinize the mistakes and fallacies of our history if we're to avoid them going forward.

The future belongs to socialism, but if we put on ideological blinders I fear that future can only be deferred, to the detriment of those who must suffer under capitalism that much longer.

Sibylus · Nov 20, 2017

pigeon said:
I think he mostly has an opposition to living in Animal Farm

She certainly does! I must be pragmatic.

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
What? How so? Just making observations. Also love how you go on to say you reported a post instead of actually discussing the situation and replying to what I said.

You've mostly been ignoring people and spouting clearly ridiculous things like "people don't starve in the US!"

Anyway your observation was dishonest. Or severely misinformed. Global warming is real, and I know you probably do not believe that.

sphagnum · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth said:
What? How so? Just making observations. Also love how you go on to say you reported a post instead of actually discussing the situation and replying to what I said.

It might help if you were arguing in good faith instead of trolling for laughs on Voat.

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Azureth probably thinks he's making us so mad. But he helped me kill some time at work during a slow hour. I thank him for the entertainment. But we can't have him shit up this thread any longer.

I hope everyone is having a good night, and I wish everyone a good holiday (if they live in the US). Tonight I introduce my boyfriend to my family. Pretty nervous!

pigeon · Nov 20, 2017

corn93 said:
Azureth probably thinks he's making us so mad. But he helped me kill some time at work during a slow hour. I thank him for the entertainment. But we can't have him shit up this thread any longer.

I hope everyone is having a good night, and I wish everyone a good holiday (if they live in the US). Tonight I introduce my boyfriend to my family. Pretty nervous!

If they don't like him just remind them that the concept of parental approval itself is fundamentally a capitalist norm that must be destroyed in order to usher in the new era.

Fruity Loops · Nov 20, 2017

corn93 said:
Venezuela as far as I know is not a utopia.

You can make the argument that this isn't the fault of Socialist economic policy quite easily, but you cannot simply pretend their problems do not exist.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-led-economic-war-not-socialism-tearing-venezuela-apart/218335/
https://extranewsfeed.com/socialism...ialist-propaganda-w-actual-logic-de587c1a299a
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...enezuelan-economy-despite-chavez-crusade.html

Oh yeah, with reputable sources like these, you clearly proved your point.

sphagnum said:
Fruity Loops, I don't know if you're trolling or if you genuinely believe that there are no problems in Venezuela or historical socialist states. If it's the former, there are better things to do on the internet. If it's the latter, you're seriously looking at socialist history with an uncritical eye.

The only problem is with human greed, better known in its distilled form, capitalism.

Like I said, most of the deaths under Socialism can be ascribed to enemies of the state. Read up on Kulaks. Those people did not share with others when they were starving. Being sent to a labor camp is actually a quite humane punishment for letting somebody else die.

Show me reputable sources proving the "troubles" in Venezuela (if they even exist; they are vastly exaggerated by propagandist outlets like Fox News) have anything to do with Socialism. Keep in mind that there are still strong remnants of capitalism that wreak havoc. Everyone should boycott GM and other greedy corporations for the shit they pulled in Venezuela. The only reason this is not being reported as much as it should be is because the capitalists have our journalists in their pockets.

pigeon · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops said:
Read up on Kulaks. Those people did not share with others when they were starving. Being sent to a labor camp is actually a quite humane punishment for letting somebody else die.

Aaaaaaaand we're done here.

corn93 · Nov 20, 2017

Fruity Loops said:
Oh yeah, with reputable sources like these, you clearly proved your point.

We've also had a poster (on the OTHER forum) posting from Venezuela. Sure, internet people can lie. But I feel comfortable stating that Venezuela is not a utopia.

Again, its easily arguable that that isnt the fault of socialist economic policy. Cuba is doing quite fine for example even with economic sanctions. But Cuba doesn't have almost all of its economy based on oil.

Azureth · Nov 20, 2017

pigeon said:
If they don't like him just remind them that the concept of parental approval itself is fundamentally a capitalist norm that must be destroyed in order to usher in the new era.

I seriously hope this is satre.

Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

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