JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
(Spoilers)

Okay so I anticipate a lot of fans are going to look at the title and say "Well yeah, the main character's name is literally Hiro Protagonist, and he's a pizza delivery driver who is also the world's best hacker and sword-fighter, what else are you expecting?" and yeah I get that because things are so steeped in parody and exaggerated caricature it's not meant to be taken seriously, but still. Overall I found the beginning and the ending very strong in their respective clarity of focus and chase scene pacing ("We need to get a thing to a thing" and "We need to stop a thing from getting to a thing," both very very fast, respectively) and Stephenson demonstrates a knack for coming up with fun and thrilling action set pieces (that frustratingly he doesn't seem quite as interested in), but I just can't help rolling my eyes and letting out an exasperated sigh when Snow Crash stops being cyberpunk and instead decides to become an Ancient Aliens and Bible Study mashup. The smug "Bet you didn't know that huh?" tone of the Librarian, Lagos, and Juanita make their pseudophilosophy, pseudoscience, and pseudoreligion all the more annoying to have to parse, especially when the content boils down to the equivalent of one dude opening up a bunch of Wikipedia tabs and pasting in paragraphs from them seemingly at random.

The structure and pacing suffers for it too; our two main protagonists basically bumble along in their day to day lives, not really understanding the tasks given to them, with little in the way of concrete goals or personal objectives with associated plans of action, until the very end. For the majority of Snow Crash what you end up reading is pages upon pages of flavor text describing some strange new location or subculture or individual (which loses its appeal when they are shuffled through so frequently, often never to appear again), one of the protagonists doing a thing without really understanding why they are doing what they are doing or how it relates to the (very) tentative underlying mystery of "What is Snow Crash?" all the while diverting the attention of the reader and the story to connecting dots between Bicammeral Mind theory, Memes, Monomyth, Pentecostalism, extraterrestrial life/intelligence, and the formation of language, without ever going deeper than surface level to justify said connections. A character will claim that a mythical deity was actually a real person and the equivalent to modern "hackers" in that they could use language to "program" early minds, or how a virus from space is what makes humans speak in tongues, which is actually just ancient Sumerian which is the language Adam and Eve spoke, and no one is skeptical and everyone just goes along with it at face value. It especially doesn't help that the book grinds to a halt near the end to spend two goddamn chapters reexplaining how everything connects and how it's all a conspiracy and how all the puzzle pieces fit together and I just can't give a shit about any of it because it's all so bogus. It's so dry and didactic that the only way it reads as entertaining or worthwhile is if one assumes that this is all somehow actually revelatory or mindblowing, instead of, well, dumb.

Throw on top of it the relentlessly gross and uncomfortable sexualizing of the other main protagonist (she's 15!) that the book either decides to ignore in a "no big deal" sort of way or, worse, portray in a "that's hot/kinda kinky" sort of way, and all in all I came away disappointed in a book I was ready to love. I guess I just wanted to vent after finishing it, and granted it did give me a lot I wanted to comment on, but yeah I guess I'm curious what other people think about it all.
 
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LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I never read that one. I did read Cryptonomicon, and very quickly learned to skip over the passages set in the present day. The historical passages are all great writing and I don't regret reading it.

I really don't care much for the way comfortable white American people are written into American novels. It's like somebody watched The Royal Tenenbaums and decided that was a thing.
 

Yams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,934
I've tried to read this book 3 times and each time I just quit like 60 pages in.
 
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JCHandsom

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
I never read that one. I did read Cryptonomicon, and very quickly learned to skip over the passages set in the present day. The historical passages are all great writing and I don't regret reading it.

I really don't care much for the way comfortable white American people are written into American novels. It's like somebody watched The Royal Tenenbaums and decided that was a thing.

I remember reading Neuromancer and thinking it was a fine piece of cyberpunk fiction, ticking off all the aesthetic and thematic boxes so to speak, and I guess I was expecting something similar to that here. Nnnoope
I've tried to read this book 3 times and each time I just quit like 60 pages in.

Yeah that's right after the big pizza delivery opening setpiece and the book steadily slopes downhill until finally picking up near the end, so I'd say you made the right call.
 

Narroo

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,819
I remember reading Neuromancer and thinking it was a fine piece of cyberpunk fiction, ticking off all the aesthetic and thematic boxes so to speak, and I guess I was expecting something similar to that here. Nnnoope
Neuromancer was one of the genre codifiers, so I would hope it ticks everything off.
 

Zackat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,021
I never read that one. I did read Cryptonomicon, and very quickly learned to skip over the passages set in the present day. The historical passages are all great writing and I don't regret reading it.

I really don't care much for the way comfortable white American people are written into American novels. It's like somebody watched The Royal Tenenbaums and decided that was a thing.
You should read The Baroque Cycle
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
You should read The Baroque Cycle

Thanks for the recommendation. As a concept, it sounds as if it plays better to his strengths as a writer. I loved the Cryptonomicon and would recommend it even though I don't care for the attempt to link the historical events to then more recent developments. He's a very talented writer, able to insert the reader into the moment.

The historical passages, while clearly fictional and changing facts to serve an overriding narrative, represent a serious attempt to restore the cybernetic and cryptologic events of the Second World War into a continuous narrative of relevance to the modern world.
 
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Heid

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,815
I remember getting to page 3 or 4 of the fucking email about safety procedures or some shit and I was like "...ok what is this"
 

Dodongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
Yeah it doesn't hold up. I read it for the first time recently.

Also the constant sexualization of the 13yo character was weird
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
I read this after hearing how great it was over on NeoGaf. This was around when the Da Vinci Code movie was coming out so all the criticisms against Dan Brown were fresh in my mind.

It felt like I was reading the novel that people criticized Dan Brown for writing. I can only imagine how much worse Da Vinci Code was.
 

Firebricks

Member
Jan 27, 2018
2,154
I read it for the first time recently and I found everything about it awful. I do think I would've enjoyed it had I read it in 1992, but everything about its edginess and attitude just does not age well into this decade. It's locked in the early 1990s and it should probably stay there.
 

Technosteve

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,208
Like everything you said in your second paragraph is his MO he loves those tangential dots and weaves them together in to his story. Quite honestly i think they are in there cause he's a history nerd.

If you want one of his books with none of the historic wankage read seveneves
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,255
The novel itself isn't stupid, the way it's written is amateurish and geeky. It's like he just masturbated as he wrote. However if you read Crypronomicon you start seeing he's a brilliant person as he gets better hold of his writing. Basically his technical skills weren't on par with the scope of the novel.
 

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,593
The smug "Bet you didn't know that huh?" tone of the Librarian, Lagos, and Juanita make their pseudophilosophy, pseudoscience, and pseudoreligion all the more annoying to have to parse, especially when the content boils down to the equivalent of one dude opening up a bunch of Wikipedia tabs and pasting in paragraphs from them seemingly at random.
This is Stephenson. I haven't read Snow Crash, but this is consistent with the three of his books I've read. Didactic exposition is his forte. Motherfucker does lots of research and he makes damn sure to get all of it on the page. (that's probably not true, but it feels that way)

I still enjoyed Anathem very much. Cryptonomicon was good as well, but Anathem reads way more like an actual, cogent novel.
 

Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
The Diamond Age is much better.

Can't really agree here. Didn't like Diamond age much.

The least likable parts about snow crash is the middle, with the info dump. it's basically I don't recall how many chapters, but felt like a good chunk of the book of dry exposition, felt like reading a textbook on fake history.
 

Rellodex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,194
Last time I said anything bad about Snow Crash I woke up the next morning to like 10 quoted posts of people flipping out at me.

I don't care much for the book, but it definitely holds a special place in the hearts of its fanbase.

It has a hyperactive enthusiasm that would have shown through more strongly without the forcing the Sumarian analogs down our throats. There is some really cool stuff, but he book can't decide if it's pastiche or not.
 
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JCHandsom

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
The novel itself isn't stupid, the way it's written is amateurish and geeky. It's like he just masturbated as he wrote. However if you read Crypronomicon you start seeing he's a brilliant person as he gets better hold of his writing. Basically his technical skills weren't on par with the scope of the novel.

This is Stephenson. I haven't read Snow Crash, but this is consistent with the three of his books I've read. Didactic exposition is his forte. Motherfucker does lots of research and he makes damn sure to get all of it on the page. (that's probably not true, but it feels that way)

I still enjoyed Anathem very much. Cryptonomicon was good as well, but Anathem reads way more like an actual, cogent novel.

These comments make sense to me, because while I find his character's theories and conclusions to be conspiratorial at best (which is not my bag, as I found out trying to watch The X-Files) and willfully ignorant at worse (The metavirus that spawned all biological and information viruses, which are treated as interchangeable, came from outer space because you say so come the fuck on) I'm fine with them in theory because at least they are creative. My problem is the way he sounds so sure and proud of his connections, like he knows he knows more than you and just schooled you, going so far as to reiterate everything over two chapters just in case the people in the back got lost along the way. If he gets better and more coherent in later books I might give them a shot.
 
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JCHandsom

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
Last time I said anything bad about Snow Crash I woke up the next morning to like 10 quoted posts of people flipping out at me.

I don't care much for the book, but it definitely holds a special place in the hearts of its fanbase.

It has a hyperactive enthusiasm that would have shown through more strongly without the forcing the Sumarian analogs down our throats. There is some really cool stuff, but he book can't decide if it's pastiche or not.

The best parts of the book are when it takes the piss out of the cyberpunk distopia, with the Mafia running a pizza chain that has mercenary delivery drivers and a late pizza warrants a breaking news bulletin on the evening news. It's that cynicism and absurdity that makes the best parts of Snow Crash the best parts, but those moments are few and far between.

Also, this might just be a me thing but it really bugged me how this crazy cyberpunk future, with fully immersive VR and a Balkanized United States and rail guns is just a generation removed from Vietnam and the main character's father served in WW2. I'm the last person to call foul on minor setting details like that because, in the end, it's all fiction anyways, but it was almost too much for me.
 
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JCHandsom

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
It was originally designed as a comic I believe.

Yeah I remember reading in the acknowledgments that the project started out as a graphic novel, which would have helped cut down on the amount of descriptions this book has, but I can't see how you could possibly make those Librarian conversations compelling in a panel format (or any entertainment format for that matter).
 

HammerFace

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,227
I was literally looking into this book earlier this week when I was trying to find something new to read. I saw the main character's name and the basic premise and was put off. I decided to try and look up the author and read some of the comments on amazon and quickly realized it was most likely gonna be trash
That being said I'm glad Neuromancer is a good book, that was another I was looking into as well.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,639
I was under the impression Snow Crash was similarly a genre codifier, so it surprises me to read more about clay tablets and the Talmud than hacking or cyberspace.
Snow Crash is often cited as a genre codifier for postcyberpunk specifically, but it always came across as a sort of mutant hybrid between traditional cyberpunk and postcyberpunk sensibilities to me. Reason was my favorite thing about the book overall, the infodumps not so much. Had a sneaking suspicion about where they were going with Y.T. and Raven, and certainly could've done without any of that.
 
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JCHandsom

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
Snow Crash is often cited as a genre codifier for postcyberpunk specifically, but it always came across as a sort of mutant hybrid between traditional cyberpunk and postcyberpunk sensibilities to me. Reason was my favorite thing about the book overall, the infodumps not so much. Had a sneaking suspicion about where they were going with Y.T. and Raven, and certainly could've done without any of that.

Ugghhh that was the worst
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I tried it a couple of times off the back of recommendations on NeoG.... PreERA, and it's fairly intolerable. I remember Valve's VR guy at the time swooning over it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,731
I read it first time a year or so ago and really enjoyed it. Just read it fast and enjoy the ride.

I don't think any of it is to be taken seriously and it did give me a madcap 2000AD vibe which was my childhood comic.
 
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JCHandsom

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
I tried it a couple of times off the back of recommendations on NeoG.... PreERA, and it's fairly intolerable. I remember Valve's VR guy at the time swooning over it.

Another complaint I have is that the VR is so glossed over. For all the shit I'll shovel on Ready Player One and Sword Art Online, they at least go into detail about interface and coordinating control in digital and physical space, whereas Snow Crash is basically "Ah you put on some goggles and earbuds and you see shit and you think to control it (IIRC)."

Also, a really random question, do they ever explain why they refer to Japanese people and objects as "Nipponese"? Is that an in-universe thing, like Japan was never it's English name and instead it's Nippon, an attempt at portraying a culture, or an edgy attempt at being hip and cool like throwing "Neo" in front of a city name but with an entire nationality?
 
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neon_dream

Member
Dec 18, 2017
3,644
Back when I worked in software, people kept swearing up and down it was the best sci-fi book ever, even better than Neuromancer or Johnny Mnemonic or Androids Dream or Dune.

That was high praise because I loved all those books. They're well written with thoughtful ideas about the future of our world. Much of Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream, and other books has become reality and rings true today. That's a testament to the insight of those authors.

Anyway, fast forward several years and I finally got around to reading it. Snow Crash felt like a shitty, sarcastic, not-at-all thoughtful, trashy and cartoonish imitation of Neuromancer. I hated it. It was like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Cereal version of all my favorite sci-fi books. Throw in some ridiculous Conan the Barbarian sexualization to top it off.

Anyway, there are much better sci-fi books, IMO.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,639
Back when I worked in software, people kept swearing up and down it was the best sci-fi book ever, even better than Neuromancer or Johnny Mnemonic or Androids Dream or Dune.

That was high praise because I loved all those books. They're well written with thoughtful ideas about the future of our world. Much of Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream, and other books has become reality and rings true today. That's a testament to the insight of those authors.

Anyway, fast forward several years and I finally got around to reading it. Snow Crash felt like a shitty, sarcastic, not-at-all thoughtful, trashy and cartoonish imitation of Neuromancer. I hated it. It was like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Cereal version of all my favorite sci-fi books. Throw in some ridiculous Conan the Barbarian sexualization to top it off.

Anyway, there are much better sci-fi books, IMO.
To be fair, I believe the concept of online avatars is something that can be traced back to Snow Crash. It also predicted the equivalent of Google Earth.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,639
William Gibson's (Johnny Mnemonic, Neuromancer) virtual reality came much earlier and had similar concepts, TBQH.
Only saw the movie version of Johnny Mnemonic myself. Don't remember a Google Earth equivalent in Neuromancer in spite of recalling visual representations of users in cyberspace, but apparently Snow Crash popularized the term avatar specifically (seems that was what I was thinking of with that).
 

neon_dream

Member
Dec 18, 2017
3,644
Only saw the movie version of Johnny Mnemonic myself. Don't remember a Google Earth equivalent in Neuromancer in spite of recalling visual representations of users in cyberspace, but apparently Snow Crash popularized the term avatar specifically (seems that was what I was thinking of with that).

Gibson does a lot of things with cyberspace data searches, including digital recreations of space and of personas/avatars.

Ultima was using the term "avatar" back in the mid 80s as the alternate representation of yourself in a game.

Anyway, I obviously refuse to credit Snow Crash with much of anything.
 

Krauser Kat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
I feel like the first half of the book is satirization of cyber punk and then goes into its mind hacking plot.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,445
Snow Crash remains my favourite book and I will fight anyone who says otherwise (with a virtual katana). The mix of crazy action and nerdy science is fantastic. I love it when authors blend research into their work - Terry Pratchett also tended to include all sorts of obscure literary references and linguistic acrobatics. It might be 90's edgy today but it's deliberately so. I would love to see it as a video game. Tell me that the Raft section wouldn't make for an awesome shooter.

As for his other books, I loved Cryptonomicon but the Baroque Cycle was unreadable. Stephenson went way too far into language cleverness at that point, and the books pretty much required a dictionary to follow. Seveneves was fantastic. Apart from Zodiac LONG ago I haven't read the rest.

I wish he had gotten to make that sword fighting simulation he was planning. That could have been ridiculously cool now that VR is an actual thing.

Edit: As for Ready Player One, blegh. I made it three pages before I got an overdose of 80's references.
 

Shodan14

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,410
That's what I keep saying, but people still like it for some reason.

The words "neurolinguistic programming" ironically make my brain turn off now.