So.. everybody at the end of Final Fantasy VIII is screwed, right? (someone explain to me FF8's ending)

[Dragon1893]

I should replay this. At lot of it went over my head back then. I can't make sense of all these theories anymore, need to see it again for myself.

Now that I think about it, I really should replay this soon, it's been almost 20 years, not many games made such a strong impression on me so I should definitely revisit it before I die.
Vita is the most convenient way to play PSone RPGs, any reason to go with the PC version instead? I do have a (crap) laptop.

 

[The Ethereal One]

Is there a final fantasy story that does make sense? Maybe 3 on the snes?

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I thought FFX was relatively simple and straightforward.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Kitase literally disproved it along with the equally awful Squall is dead theory;

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Squall is actually a re-dead zombie

 

[Bit_Reactor]

You're god damn right.

FF8 still has one of the best soundtracks of all time. And I'm not even saying this in a nostalgia fueled way - most games I play today don't even come close.

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It, like FF7's, is perfectly suited for its world. It gives the game more identity and fleshes out each area. I'll never forget the first time I went to Ifrit's Cave, fighting the T-Rex and spamming the "boost" for summons to kill it, the first time we stormed the beach, etc, almost all because the music was so great.

Is there a final fantasy story that does make sense? Maybe 3 on the snes?

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Without going into spoilers, 7 is a very straight forward "who Am I" story juxtaposed against a supernatural evil from another planet, just lost partially in translation due to the times.

8 while not my favorite was pretty straightforward til the end.

9 only gets weird in the last part and a boss fight that lots of people don't like but I enjoyed.

10 is very straightforward as someone else noticed with only one "twist" ignoring Tidus's revelations about the summoners "Path" and where that ends up, but I feel that was perfectly executed.

I think the "simpler" ones prior to 6 were pretty straightforward but I think 6 is also a master class in how to give the world stakes, beat down your heroes, and build towards an epic finale regardless of the story being a bit crazy towards the end.

Honestly I think most FF's (and JRPGs in general) are pretty easy to understand until you get to their final acts, and even then it's easy to just go "got it, fighting god, moving on"

 

[Mzo]

You are correct. In the Japanese version this is more clearly stated. Unfortunately a lot of moments involving Ultimecia aren't handled well in the translation and just paint her as this maniac who wants destruction when in the Japanese version we see someone who is scared of death and her grudge against SeeD is more understandable.

I'll still never understood how people ran so far with Rinoa = Ultimecia when almost every single aspect of the theory made zero sense. Even worse when people try to say it made the story better yet every single idea that would lead Rinoa to being Ultimecia is not shown in the game and literally turns Rinoa into a nutjob because reasons???

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The story is so terrible people had to find ways to justify and rationalize it into something that wasn't a steaming pile.

 

[Mzo]

10 is very straightforward as someone else noticed with only one "twist" ignoring Tidus's revelations about the summoners "Path" and where that ends up, but I feel that was perfectly executed.

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what

I was massively confused the entire time I played this game.

 

[Bit_Reactor]

what

I was massively confused the entire time I played this game.

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It's basically just an Isekai. Guy gets lost in another world. Everyone else is going about their business. Don't know what the policy is on spoiling OTHER games in this thread, but along with Tidus's narrations it's not hard to understand at all. Guy gets lost in another world, gets taken along for the ride trying to find a way home, realizes something bad, helps save the world. There's side plots going on that are weird like the whole Auron thing and such but the main plot line is extremely easy to follow.

 

[Orion]

I know right. Realizing that Rinoa will outlive everyone, lose her damn mind, become Ultimecia and try to kill all the people she once loved is what makes the ending so iconic. That's my kinda love story. <3

 

[Mzo]

It's basically just an Isekai. Guy gets lost in another world. Everyone else is going about their business. Don't know what the policy is on spoiling OTHER games in this thread, but along with Tidus's narrations it's not hard to understand at all. Guy gets lost in another world, gets taken along for the ride trying to find a way home, realizes something bad, helps save the world. There's side plots going on that are weird like the whole Auron thing and such but the main plot line is extremely easy to follow.

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I guess you can say the overall theme is understandable, but it loses me in the details. What is Sin capable of, exactly? Why does it destroy villages and sometimes teleport us to different places? Then the whole dead people made up of fairies thing.

I don't know, man. It wasn't all that simple.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

90% of the people hating on the story either a) never understood it or b) bought into the internet hate meme of the game for a while

I'm glad enough time has passed that people have come around. The game was ambitious, ahead of its time in some respects, a little flawed in others but easily forgiven given the ambition. Replaying it in recent years after not having 100%'d it since being a kid kind of opened my eyes.

Throw in arguably the best OST in gaming history, awesome cast, some of the coolest scifi shit (the gardens and whatnot), best mini game, etc. The game was gooooood times.

 

[Bit_Reactor]

I guess you can say the overall theme is understandable, but it loses me in the details. What is Sin capable of, exactly? Why does it destroy villages and sometimes teleport us to different places? Then the whole dead people made up of fairies thing.

I don't know, man. It wasn't all that simple.

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I thought the only people it teleported were Tidus and that was all explained in the ending with who/what Tidus is? I could be remembering wrong.

Other than that Sin is just a punishment and death cycle that gets broken eventually.

With the "dead people made up of fairies" thing I'm not sure if you're arguing in good faith or not. That's like getting weirded out that when people "die" in FF7 expanded material or something they look like the Lifestream. It's just that world's version of death/a very Japanese "spirits" interpretation.

But I digress I'm sidetracking the thread. Either way I think it doesn't leave a lot unanswered by the end and is pretty great at using Tidus to be the audience to convey its plot throughout the game. -shrug-

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I don't like it so it doesn't make sense!!!!!

 

[BocoDragon]

I like the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory and I think it fits with everything in the game... but I do feel a little bit uncomfortable that some people would think that's the point of the story, when it isn't. It isn't canon.

 

[Blunoise]

I don't what ending that is OP, but I thinks that's wrong

 

[BocoDragon]

love the game but in ways it was the FFXV before FFXV. at some point they obviously condensed and cobbled together plot resolutions because of time restraints. look at Seifer for example obviously he was positioned to play a larger role but less then halfway through the game his whole arc is lol wut

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I never felt that way.

Rather I think you're kinda supposed to think of him as some Pokey-esque "rival from the beginning of the game who ends up caught up with evil forces and becomes the actual big bad", but the twist is that he's not.

You see him laughing and peaceful, literally fishing at the end of the game, in a very Ghibli-esque "the villain is not really a villain" kind of theme. The teenage rival was allowed to become a teenage rival again.. not really an evil person, but a dumbass who learned his lesson and slinked back into society.

The fact that this was rendered in an expensive FMV at the end of the game tells me that this was long planned. I see no seams of rushed development in his plotline. It all seems very intentional.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I never felt that way.

Rather I think you're kinda supposed to think of him as some Pokey-esque "rival from the beginning of the game who ends up caught up with evil forces and becomes the actual big bad" but the twist is that he's not.

You see him laughing and peaceful, literally fishing at the end of the game, in a very Ghibli-esque "the villain is not really a villain" kind of theme.

The fact that this was rendered in an expensive FMV at the end of the game tells me that this was long planned. I see no seams of rushed development in his plotline. It all seems very intentional.

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He probably was never meant to join you as a permanent playable character, but it's quite obvious that they shortened his arc toward the end of the game. Him and Ellone too.

 

[skeezx]

not to mention Laguna, hinted at an incoming "i'm your father" moment when you meet up in that invisible future city (forget the name) but i think that was the last you hear from him

 

[BocoDragon]

He probably was never meant to join you as a permanent playable character, but it's quite obvious that they shortened his arc toward the end of the game. Him and Ellone too.

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What do you base that on? As I said I never got that impression. Literally the first I'm hearing of this 20 years later.

I assume based on the FMV ending that Seifer was always supposed to end up where he did, as not quite a friend but certainly not a "consumed by evil" baddie.

To that end I don't know what is missing from his story. We last face him in the Lunatic Pandora at one of the last moments before shit with the true final boss hits the fan. That's about where i'd expect. We shouldn't expect to face him during the whole time compression section. He isn't destined to follow that far if he is to return as a hapless "good guy".

We even discover in a roundabout way why he was open to being manipulated by the dream of being a sorceress' knight. As a child he watched the film that Laguna participated in the filming of. If you think of him being a brainwashed puppet manipulated by his childhood dream, there's little more else we need to know about him.

Xenogears or Soul Reaver are games from that era which bear the scars of rushed development. Never saw it in VIII.

 

[Wazzy]

The JP version makes her motivations clear:

Spoiler

Japanese: "Have you remembered something?
Something from your childhood
A sensation
The words from back then
The emotions from back then
As you become an adult
You leave something behind, throw something away
Time will not wait for you
Even if you cling to it
It slips away the instant you open your hands
And…"

I always wondered what she would say after "And..". Something like "and you will be erased from history"?. But her not finishing her sentence is likely there to show time will indeed not wait.

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English Version:
Reflect on your… Childhood…"
"Your sensation… Your words… Your emotions…"
"Time… It will not wait…"
"No matter… …how hard you hold on. It escapes you…"
"And…"

The English version is actually pretty close with the translation and they even used it for the JP 20th Anniversary event in Mobius. It conveys pretty much the same message and is what most people took away from her wording. I do love thinking about what the following sentence would have been and it was always sad how she never will finish it.


The translation I had the bigger issue with is this:

English Version:
"…SeeD… SeeD……SeeD…… SeeD, SeeD, SeeD! Kurse all SeeDs. Swarming like lokusts akross generations. You disgust me. The world was on the brink of that ever-elusive 'time kompression'. Insolent fools! Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs. The price for your meddling is death beyond death. I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining. There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Whom shall I exterminate first!? I'll start with you three!"

This entire bit just makes Ultimecia sound like an over the top villain with no motivation other than just wanting everyone dead.

Japanese Version:
"…eeD…
SeeD…SeeD…
SeeD, SeeD, SeeD!!
It displeases me…
Why do you interfere with sorceresses!?
Why won't you let me be free!?
In just a little longer, my perfect world of time compression would have been completed…
I won't allow you to interfere…
Your very existences shall be absorbed by the algorithm of time compression!!
You will feel agony as your thoughts are ripped apart and all your memories fade away to nothing.
There won't be a thing you can do, think or even feel!
That's the world I'm going to send you to!
There will be absolutely nothing you can…
…No, you'll be able to worship me, the sole existence for all eternity!!
So, who will come first!?
Who will fight me!?
Hmpf, it matters not, the end will be the same!
I will choose!"

Which clearly shows her motivation that she wants to be in control of her own time and fate. Laguna does describe TC enough that you can understand what happens to Squall at the end of the game HOWEVER the Japanesse dialogue has Ultimecia confirm the exact effects.

"Your very existences shall be absorbed by the algorithm of time compression!!
You will feel agony as your thoughts are ripped apart and all your memories fade away to nothing.
There won't be a thing you can do, think or even feel! "

So it definitely was a terrible omission on the translation side.

I never felt that way.

Rather I think you're kinda supposed to think of him as some Pokey-esque "rival from the beginning of the game who ends up caught up with evil forces and becomes the actual big bad", but the twist is that he's not.

You see him laughing and peaceful, literally fishing at the end of the game, in a very Ghibli-esque "the villain is not really a villain" kind of theme. The teenage rival was allowed to become a teenage rival again.. not really an evil person, but a dumbass who learned his lesson and slinked back into society.

The fact that this was rendered in an expensive FMV at the end of the game tells me that this was long planned. I see no seams of rushed development in his plotline. It all seems very intentional.

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I think it's deeper than that.

Seifer and Squall are shown to be two very similar characters that end up going down different paths. Squall is constantly being guided into the role of leadership so all attention is on him while Seifer is left as the student who fails and has a bad attitude. We know Cid feels guilty for this later on realizing he wasn't there for Seifer. The other part is that both characters are in similar roles but on opposite sides and different reasons for it. Squall is the knight to someone he loves while Seifer is manipulated into being a knight for the evil sorceress who also happens to be their Matron. He ends up loving the power and attention he receives which slowly leads him to feeling trapped and unable to escape the situation he is in while Squall hates the leadership he is being forced into and is uncomfortable by the attention he keeps receiving even though we know his insecurities and inner thoughts show he does actually want friendship and companionship. By the end even Seifers closest friends abandon him and we see how much of a toll everything has taken on him while Squall has everyone supporting him and ready to stand with him until the end. Seifer is scared and doesn't think he can stop what he is doing.

This is why I fully believe his arc was cut right at the end. He gives Rinoa to Adel and then we never see him again until the very ending of the game even though he is in the room with the rest of the group when TC takes place. It could be that Laguna and Ellone take him out of the room but that is not shown so it just makes little sense why he suddenly is gone and never acknowledged again until the ending. Since he has a happy ending the more logical path to it would be him realizing his screw ups and helping the group while TC is taking place and then eventually with Ultimecia. Even better would have been Disc 4 allowing the rest of the playable characters to be recruited to help like Laguna, Kiros, Ward, Edea and even characters like Raijin and Fujin. It's too bad because Disc 4 was already amazing but adding in the future world as playable would have been insane.

Yeah, but if the Gardens weren't around before, then Cid would be a nobody at that point. Granted, Edea being a sorceress may have given them some notoriety, but still.

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The idea starts once Edea tells Cid about Garden, SeeD and Squall's future. Both of them work together and have assistance in setting the academy up. Cid goes to NORG who is extremely rich and he funds the creation of Garden. NORG realizes that the building has no means of making money and to stay running they need to bring in income so he comes up with the mercenary idea and that is how SeeD doing missions around the world begins. The Galbadian military is still very much an opposing force considering they are often fighting against SeeD and are the military that sides with Edea/Ultimecia though this begins when Edea becomes a political figure. Esthar isn't involved because the sorceress war which was caused by Adel who was a tyrant that threatened the entire world was finally sealed so they closed their borders and hid themselves while making sure to setup watch over Adel in space. They get more involved once Ellone is targeted since Laguna is sending soldiers to pick her up. Galbadia Garden acts as a military academy for the Galbadian military.

 

[Bradford]

well she was Cid's wife, presumably somebody of high rank. i guess they were the equivalent of a D.C. "power couple" and running an orphanage was a purely philanthropic endeavor

...admittedly explaining it all away with head canon here but it's not a mental backflip either

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Yeah, but if the Gardens weren't around before, then Cid would be a nobody at that point. Granted, Edea being a sorceress may have given them some notoriety, but still.

The idea starts once Edea tells Cid about Garden, SeeD and Squall's future. Both of them work together and have assistance in setting the academy up. Cid goes to NORG who is extremely rich and he funds the creation of Garden. NORG realizes that the building has no means of making money and to stay running they need to bring in income so he comes up with the mercenary idea and that is how SeeD doing missions around the world begins. The Galbadian military is still very much an opposing force considering they are often fighting against SeeD and are the military that sides with Edea/Ultimecia though this begins when Edea becomes a political figure. Esthar isn't involved because the sorceress war which was caused by Adel who was a tyrant that threatened the entire world was finally sealed so they closed their borders and hid themselves while making sure to setup watch over Adel in space. They get more involved once Ellone is targeted since Laguna is sending soldiers to pick her up. Galbadia Garden acts as a military academy for the Galbadian military.

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I understand the plot and sequence of events, I just think it's a little bit weird thinking about how, within the course of roughly 10 years an entire global military complex is effectively restructured to the point that people don't seem to ever mention or talk about a world before the gardens existed, on top of the whole 'GFs eat your memories' thing. The closest thing we get is Laguna's sections, but even then he's an adult by that point.

I get how it all works, I just don't really think it holds together under scrutiny. Like, why would Galbadia, an opposing military entity, rename and restructure their military based on their opponent's newly conceived concept of Gardens, conceived from an orphanage owning sorceress's prophecy of future events as told by an alleged time traveler who also happened to be an orphan she was fostering? Especially when Ultimecia, controlling Edea, is against the Gardens to begin with. Why would she campaign to start her own Garden instead of just... Utilizing existing military powers? Just seems a little bit half baked, like they decided halfway through to make the Gardens and their purpose a reveal when the world building isn't really capable of supporting the full breadth of its ramifications.

Not that I think it makes a huge difference, but for context I also played in Japanese, so I got all of Edea/Ultimecia's correct dialogue too.

 

[Wazzy]

Yeah, but if the Gardens weren't around before, then Cid would be a nobody at that point. Granted, Edea being a sorceress may have given them some notoriety, but still.



I understand the plot and sequence of events, I just think it's a little bit weird thinking about how, within the course of roughly 10 years an entire global military complex is effectively restructured to the point that people don't seem to ever mention or talk about a world before the gardens existed, on top of the whole 'GFs eat your memories' thing. The closest thing we get is Laguna's sections, but even then he's an adult by that point.

I get how it all works, I just don't really think it holds together under scrutiny. Like, why would Galbadia, an opposing military entity, rename and restructure their military based on their opponent's newly conceived concept of Gardens, conceived from an orphanage owning sorceress's prophecy of future events as told by an alleged time traveler who also happened to be an orphan she was fostering? Especially when Ultimecia, controlling Edea, is against the Gardens to begin with. Why would she campaign to start her own Garden instead of just... Utilizing existing military powers? Just seems a little bit half baked, like they decided halfway through to make the Gardens and their purpose a reveal when the world building isn't really capable of supporting the full breadth of its ramifications.

Not that I think it makes a huge difference, but for context I also played in Japanese, so I got all of Edea/Ultimecia's correct dialogue too.

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I'm not sure why you think the entire military around the world has been reconstructed. Esthars military existed and still does in the present time. They are reliant on their advanced technology and do not have their own Garden. Dollet has their own small military force and Timber relies on resistance members. Balamb Garden was funded and created first and presented as a military academy for students to train and achieve the rank of SeeD who act as mercenaries and do not take political sides unless paid. This is all specific to Balamb because it's an independent academy and uses GF which are banned at Trabia and Galbadia which they mention. Galbadia still has a military but with the creation of Balamb they also decide to build Galbadia Garden to act as a recruitment source for them. This doesn't mean that training academy's didn't exist because we can clearly see the military still functioned on it's own with Laguna flashbacks and Gardens did not exist in any of these flashbacks because they took place during the Sorceress War. The only Garden that I take issue with in it's creation is Trabia since we really aren't given much information on how it came to be.

Ultimecia doesn't campaign against Gardens(they already exist by the time she possesses Edea which is near the beginning of the game hence Ellone being in the infirmary because the White SeeD arrive to notify Cid that Edea has left) and her grudge is at SeeD and Balamb Garden because they try to assassinate her. Once she rules Galbadia she also has access to Galbadia Garden.

I also want to clarify that the true purpose of SeeD is only known to Cid, Edea, NORG and MAYBE the other headmasters at Trabia and Galbadia who were close with Cid. Since we know Cid has friends like Martin we can assume he also had them support the creation of Garden. I don't believe anything in the game suggests that anyone else was notified about the true reasoning and instead were presented with the simple concept of a military school to recruit children and raise them as soldiers for mercenary hiring.

 

[SantaC]

The way I saw it was that after Squall was hit by the ice everything else after became a dream.

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It was never touched upon why he was alive and who saved him?

 

[Warrior of Light]

It was never touched upon why he was alive and who saved him?

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It wasn't a mortal wound, and considering they all ended up imprisoned for the assassination attempt he was probably being given medical care by prison staff.

 

[Bradford]

I'm not sure why you think the entire military around the world has been reconstructed. Esthars military existed and still does in the present time. They are reliant on their advanced technology and do not have their own Garden. Dollet has their own small military force and Timber relies on resistance members. Balamb Garden was funded and created first and presented as a military academy for students to train and achieve the rank of SeeD who act as mercenaries and do not take political sides unless paid. This is all specific to Balamb because it's an independent academy and uses GF which are banned at Trabia and Galbadia which they mention. Galbadia still has a military but with the creation of Balamb they also decide to build Galbadia Garden to act as a recruitment source for them. This doesn't mean that training academy's didn't exist because we can clearly see the military still functioned on it's own with Laguna flashbacks and Gardens did not exist in any of these flashbacks because they took place during the Sorceress War. The only Garden that I take issue with in it's creation is Trabia since we really aren't given much information on how it came to be.

Ultimecia doesn't campaign against Gardens(they already exist by the time she possesses Edea which is near the beginning of the game hence Ellone being in the infirmary because the White SeeD arrive to notify Cid that Edea has left) and her grudge is at SeeD and Balamb Garden because they try to assassinate her. Once she rules Galbadia she also has access to Galbadia Garden.

I also want to clarify that the true purpose of SeeD is only known to Cid, Edea, NORG and MAYBE the other headmasters at Trabia and Galbadia who were close with Cid. Since we know Cid has friends like Martin we can assume he also had them support the creation of Garden. I don't believe anything in the game suggests that anyone else was notified about the true reasoning and instead were presented with the simple concept of a military school to recruit children and raise them as soldiers for mercenary hiring.

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I guess I just missed that the Gardens existed prior to Edea/Cid establishing the Balamb Garden, but even so, perhaps due to the focus on students, the world seems awfully centered around the Gardens as the main form of status and education in the world, which, I suppose if they have been around for a long time that's cool, but if not, that's kinda weird? Nonetheless, thanks for the explanation! I appreciate it.

I knew the true reasoning behind SeeD was kept hidden, it just seemed odd that each nation has its elite Garden members and everything seems relatively uniform.