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L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
So no one should write fiction for a character outside their ethnicity then. Understood.

What I'm saying is that it's easier for Indian writers to have the nuance to write a character that more properly reflects the experience of the character, because an Indian writer is probably going to be more exposed to the actual cultural experience of someone like Apu.

If Apu was written by white people who were knowledge enough to reflect that experience in a way that wasn't rooted in easy generalizations, Indian people may have been more receptive to it. Hari even shows the character to his parents in the documentary and asks them if they identify with him, and they don't. I think you realize that that wasn't the case though.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
I'm Indian. The Big Bang Theory wasn't around when I was a kid. Apu was. Apu was the playground go-to when mocking Indian kids..

Right. But was that because Apu was a racist signifier intended to mock Indians, or was it because those kids were racist assholes whose limited exposure to Indian culture was you and a character on the most popular show of the 90's? I suspect if it wasn't Apu they would've found something else.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
Right. But was that because Apu was a racist signifier intended to mock Indians, or was it because those kids were racist assholes whose limited exposure to Indian culture was you and a character on the most popular show of the 90's? If it wasn't Apu they would've found something else.

Tell me what they would have found. Do you think they were digging around for an Indian stereotype to use?

If nothing else, Apu packed up stereotypes and sold them to the mainstream.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
Tell me what they would have found. Do you think they were digging around for an Indian stereotype to use?

I grew up in a predominantly white community with an indian family running the "corner shop" / supermarket.

The Simpsons were at their peak but the racist kids didn't really use "come again" or Apu as a slur, instead they used to say "bud bud ding ding 2.99" - this was a horrible British racist phrase which did not come from The Simpsons and it's origins I assume come from a more explicitly racist caricature they probably heard from their parents and older relatives.

Doesn't mean Apu isn't problematic obvs, but I don't think those kids would've behaved differently either way.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Right. But was that because Apu was a racist signifier intended to mock Indians, or was it because those kids were racist assholes whose limited exposure to Indian culture was you and a character on the most popular show of the 90's? I suspect if it wasn't Apu they would've found something else.

P*ki was the number one slur I heard in schools growing up. Nothing to do with The Simpsons. Poorly educated kids will group together and point at "the other". The other often being the minority or the kids who appear different than the majority. It's an unfortunate systematic issue that often happens with kids, but it can be handled and education/discipline can tackle it young.

Adults and the educated are supposed to know better when watching things like The Simpsons and South Park, or attending a stand up comedy show. Some don't, or refuse to understand satire and stereotypes. Those people are often the real assholes. Generic decent people who can accept things in comedy for what they are and not change their personal behaviour should not be the target of ire as often as they are. But you look at the wide sweeping brush strokes American media tends to come out with at times and that if anything can reach the heights of "outrage culture" if you were to argue it's a thing.

When you start seeing non-satirical articles written that South Park is partly responsible for the alt-right, or some comedy show is partly why Trump got elected. That's the kind of fluff that mostly comes out of America. You rarely see articles exported from the UK saying a sitcom is partly responsible for Brexit. It used to be the evangelicals and Conservatives in America who went gung-ho trying to sterilise everything, but the last few years has seen a large uprise in the American-left behaving incredibly Conservative. Or a very vocal portion of the American-left.

That observation of mine being said, I still think the creators here should just be ending the show soon, respectfully writing Apu out of the series for good, or giving changing the voice acting a go, but I don't think the latter will be widely accepted by anyone unhappy without the character being completely re-written.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
I grew up in a predominantly white community with an indian family running the "corner shop" / supermarket.

The Simpsons were at their peak but the racist kids didn't really use "come again" or Apu as a slur, instead they used to say "bud bud ding ding 2.99" - this was a horrible British racist phrase which did not come from The Simpsons and it's origins I assume come from a more explicitly racist caricature they probably heard from their parents and older relatives.

Doesn't mean Apu isn't problematic obvs, but I don't think those kids would've behaved differently either way.

I don't know what the discussion we're having is at this point.

You claimed that Apu being Indian was never the joke. I told you that Apu was Indian because of the funny voice, going by Hari's research.

You asked why people don't talk about Raj from The Big Bang Theory. I noted that they do, and that Apu was a common experience for Indians in North America growing up while Raj isn't yet. Is that not explanation enough? Do we have to bear the weight of ending racism entirely in order to talk about our experience?

I don't know what this has to do with anything. Removing Apu doesn't end racism. I don't think anyone claimed he did. But he packages stereotypes and renders them acceptable for mainstream use. It participates in the perpetuation of stereotypes and racist ideas. You yourself suggest that Apu might be problematic, so where's the conflict?
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
User Warned: Dismissive post.
This. I️ feel groening fucked up by responding about them
It kind of proves his point though. There is a group of people that go from controversy to controversy and magnify it to 1000 because they want to be accepted or need reassurance that they are truly progressive (probably to make up for something they are truly not progressive on) and they act a fool. I don't think MG was taking a shot at the people in the doc, more so the crazies that hopped on the band wagon.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,454
He is right in the fact that we currently live in a culture of outrage, but I understand the theory behind "the problem with Apu" and the fact it was used as a reference point for Indians living in America for so long that it became a playground taunt for a lot of kids growing up and thats how it has become problematic. I dont like the fact he isnt acknowledging this and instead is choosing to handwave it away.

Everyone on that show is portrayed as stupid. Homer is the stupid American. Mr Burns is the evil rich stupid guy.

It's a comedy ffs. He's right. Why don't people moan about Homer, bumblebee man and others? Apu actually has been portrayed as one of the intelligent men on the show.
 

Deleted member 4518

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
1,278
this is basically a non-response to a valid criticism, which is worse than him saying nothing. also the way the show handled it was really poor. i don't really take kindly to being told as a brown dude that we're all pretending to be offended.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
Unless you were one of the people bulling kids because "they talked different" how could you possibly know that?

Because he observed it on a daily basis growing up maybe? Because it's basic human psychology to attack and exclude the minority or "other"?

Anyway the problem with Apu is Azaria voicing him and the character stereotype not developing in 30 years.

In it's heyday the show was progressive, inclusive and a positive force in pop culture. 2018 could use a smart, broad anti-establishment show like early Simpsons. The state it's in today is sad.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,950
It kind of proves his point though. There is a group of people that go from controversy to controversy and magnify it to 1000 because they want to be accepted or need reassurance that they are truly progressive (probably to make up for something they are truly not progressive on) and they act a fool.
*citation needed*
 

Deleted member 23381

User requested account closure
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Oct 28, 2017
5,029
While I don't mind So I personally it is a fact that his depiction caused negative experiences for some Indian kids growing up in white countries.

Such a tactless response.
 

Sincerest

Member
Jan 22, 2018
606
He is entirely wrong, though. I will never understand why white dudes are so utterly horrified by even minor, gentle criticism like this. "The trouble with Apu" is not exactly damning criticism condemning Simpsons to everlasting doom.
And that even tiny criticism like this gets such an overreaction from people like Demogorgon or Sincerest is kinda pathetic, in my opinion.

Can you start growing up, acting like mature people, and realize that not everything you did or liked is 100% perfect? Gosh. We live in an outrage culture alright, and it's pointless, completely excessive outrage at any criticism of white dudes throwing stereotypes around. Nobody even said that Apu MUST CHANGE NAO or whatever. It's just mild criticism. You guys can handle it.



Perfect example of the outrage culture in action. Easyroad takes the easy road, and goes from "south-asian people criticize Apu in a documentary" to "everyone must be accusing people of wearing clan hoods!" in an instant.
No nuance, no idea what the documentary was actually saying or discussing, just 100% ridiculous outrage over essentially nothing.

"Pathetic."

"Grow up."

"White dudes." (Nice assumption, completely wrong though )

Yeah, there is an overreaction in this thread. And it's coming from you.
 

Enzom21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,989
Because he observed it on a daily basis growing up maybe? Because it's basic human psychology to attack and exclude the minority or "other"?
And it is also human nature to mock minorities because they saw a stereotype of them on tv. So unless that poster audited each bully they saw bullying an Indian person, they couldn't possibly know that it wasn't because of The Simpsons.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Because he observed it on a daily basis growing up maybe? Because it's basic human psychology to attack and exclude the minority or "other"?

Anyway the problem with Apu is Azaria voicing him and the character stereotype not developing in 30 years.

In it's heyday the show was progressive, inclusive and a positive force in pop culture. 2018 could use a smart, broad anti-establishment show like early Simpsons. The state it's in today is sad.

This has truth to it

Maybe you remember the time your (White) three-year-old told his (Black) babysitter that he was glad his skin was "nicer than hers" or the time your five-year-old shouted that the (dark-skinned Latino) man at the end of the grocery aisle had "dirty skin". At that moment maybe you wanted to shrink away in horror, disown your first-born, and forget the myths of blissful parenthood. What was going on there? How did you perfectly delightful, well-meaning, angel of a child, whom you'd raised to be so polite and socially-appropriate, suddenly take on the shape and sound of a raving racist? If you are like most parents, your child certainly never heard you say something like that.

Or maybe you are one of the parents, like many who enter my laboratory at Yale and like my closest friends and relatives, who explain that your child is definitely not aware of race—in fact, your child is that very product of Dr. King's vision—able to treat others based on character rather than skin color.

In my experience as a developmental psychologist, White parents tend to fall into these two camps—those who recall in horror embarrassing incidents in which their children made racist comments to strangers or loved ones—and those who are certain their children are colorblind. In reality, our studies suggest neither portrayal is quite right. In fact, children are not blind to race. Instead, like all of us, they notice differences, seeing that some people have darker or lighter skin or curlier or straighter hair than others. What's more they notice that these features of people's faces, hair, and bodies seem to mean something because in nearly all towns they predict (to a lesser or greater extent) the neighborhoods people live in, the places they shop, and the cars they drive. White children often learn very quickly, that simple questions or comments about these observations are shut down, stopped, and hushed with incredible velocity. Children become aware that this topic must be important because unlike their other questions, these ones go unanswered and leave their parents with looks of worry.

As evidence, Rebecca Bigler(link is external) and her colleagues at UT-Austin found that nearly all White mothers in their research study adopted a "colormute"/ "colorblind" approach when discussing a book that was either directly or indirectly about race with their 4-5 year old children; most chose not to discuss race at all. (In case you wonder why I'm focusing on White parents here, previous work(link is external) has demonstrated that as opposed to White parents, parents of minority children in the U.S., do talk about race and ethnicity quite regularly.)

Now you might be asking yourself—why not avoid talking about race—after all most of us don't want our children obsessing with the concept. Well there are many reasons, but one of the most persuasive to me has been recent work showing that children often come to their own (sometimes worrying) conclusions about race and if they think they can't discuss them with us, then these theories do not get checked. After all, children are smart and inquisitive and as such are trying to understand the world around them. As they do so, they often create explanations for why things are the way they are.

Another study by Dr. Bigler demonstrated how children's logic in trying to understand race can go awry. In a study conducted in 2006 (published in 2008) before Obama was a candidate for president, Bigler and her teamasked a group of 5-10 year old children why they thought all 43 presidents to date were White. She offered possible explanations and a whopping 26% of children endorsed the statement that Blacks could not be president because it was presently (in 2006) illegal! It's doubtful anyone taught their children that it was illegal in 2006 for a Black person to be president, however children, reasonably I might add, searched the world for a possible reason why this would happen. How could 43 presidents in a row all be from the same racial background?! Certainly illegality would explain such a disparity. Thus not talking about race with your kids can result in surprisingly problematic views about race. (For surprising kid logic in domains outside of race, check out my favorite episode(link is external) of This American Life(link is external)).

What's more, decades of research suggests that even if parents are not talking about race, children are noticing it, so avoidance will not make it go away. By 3 or 4 years of age, White children in the U.S., Canada, Australia and Europe show preferences for other White children. For example, while parents of children in the storybook study above predicted that their children would show no race bias, the children did on average tend to favorite Whites to Blacks. Results like these demonstrate that those very same White children whose parents insist their children do not see race, walk into research labs across the world and, when presented with a line-up of possible friends, are quick to select the White ones rather than the Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Indigenous ones.

So how do we get our kids to be non-racist if avoiding talking about it is not the solution? Well one thing's for sure—your kids pay attention to who is around them and who you spend your time with. Bigler's storybook study mentioned above finds that the 4-5 year old children of parents who have more diverse friends show less racial bias than the children of parents who have less diverse friends. What is more, a study(link is external) done by Bar-Haim and colleagues in 2006, showed that growing up in a multi-racial environmentversus a mono-racial one produced differences in race-based responding in children only 3-months of age! This and other work suggests that one clear thing parents can do is to not just talk about race and challenge children's assumptions, but model through their own behavior, the importance of interracial interactions and relationships.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/developing-minds/201304/are-kids-racist

Notably

Bigler's storybook study mentioned above finds that the 4-5 year old children of parents who have more diverse friends show less racial bias than the children of parents who have less diverse friends. What is more, a study(link is external) done by Bar-Haim and colleagues in 2006, showed that growing up in a multi-racial environmentversus a mono-racial one produced differences in race-based responding in children only 3-months of age! This and other work suggests that one clear thing parents can do is to not just talk about race and challenge children's assumptions, but model through their own behavior, the importance of interracial interactions and relationships.

The UK especially was less diverse 10~15 years ago than it is now. While anyone non-white will still make up the minority in schools, there will have been an increase in multi-racial schools. Or more so, an increase in the % of non-white in schools.

Kids will "other" and comment on things that appear "different" than the majority. It's just how schools, parents and the education system handle it when it arises. Schools have been and can still be notoriously poor at handling bullying. That doesn't get drastically improved by The Simpsons being suggested as being disproportionately responsible for a much deeper social issue.

People on the left behaving like Conservative-right of the 90's trying to disproportionately blame music, games and MTV for things isn't impressive now as it wasn't impressive then. It downplays the far more serious reasons things happen in society.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
And it is also human nature to mock minorities because they saw a stereotype of them on tv. So unless that poster audited each bully they saw bullying an Indian person, they couldn't possibly know that it wasn't because of The Simpsons.

Well we could... because as you say it's human nature. It's not the fault of one popular TV show.

If The Simpsons was currently the same show as it's heyday, it would have tackled this head on long before now and it would be largely on Hari's side. So we can agree the response from the show and Groening today is inadequate.
 

Ebullientprism

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,529
I wouldnt say they "pretend" to be offended.

I think they are (or at least have convinced themselves they are) actually offended. But I do agree with the first part. People LOVE being offended.

It gives you a sense of superiority. You can look down on someone, which can be even better if that person happens to be successful. And you can do it while being on the "right side".

That is why when someone fucks up and apologizes you have people here going "thats not good enough, shouldnt have done it in the first place". Cause that way you are still better than him/her.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Indian kids don't innately talk different. Accents are learned from the environment..
Growing up in NY, If you didn't sound like you were from NY, You were going to get picked on in the playground. That goes for people from different countries or people from the south or Midwest. It's just the way little kids operated. They are evil assholes when they are young.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
Growing up in NY, If you didn't sound like you were from NY, You were going to get picked on in the playground. That goes for people from different countries or people from the south or Midwest. It's just the way little kids operated. They are evil assholes when they are young.

The guy who made this documentary is Indian and born in Queens, New York. Why wouldn't he sound like he wasn't from New York?
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,254
Sydney
Growing up in NY, If you didn't sound like you were from NY, You were going to get picked on in the playground. That goes for people from different countries or people from the south or Midwest. It's just the way little kids operated. They are evil assholes when they are young.

Have you seen the documentary?

They talk to actors like Aziz Ansari and Kal Penn who do not talk differently that got called Apu and asked the way to the Kwik E Mart, to this day.

The guy making the documentary is from Queens and has a New York accent.
 

Enzom21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,989
Well we could... because as you say it's human nature. It's not the fault of one popular TV show.

If The Simpsons was currently the same show as it's heyday, it would have tackled this head on long before now and it would be largely on Hari's side. So we can agree the response from the show and Groening today is inadequate.
Are you trying to claim that popular tv shows have zero influence on human behavior? If a person's only knowledge of an Indian person comes from watching Apu and the first time they meet an Indian person they use a shitty accent and say "Thank you come again." to that Indian person. Is that not the fault of the show?
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
Are you trying to claim that popular tv shows have zero influence on human behavior? If a person's only knowledge of an Indian person comes from watching Apu and the first time they meet an Indian person they use a shitty accent and say "Thank you come again." to that Indian person. Is that not the fault of the show?

No? It's the fault of the person, clearly.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,254
Sydney
The stereotype of the Indian family owning a small newsagents/supermarket existed long before The Simpsons and had a cultural basis in 70's/80's.

Children in the 90s/00s didn't get it from before they were born, they got it from the Simpsons.

Go watch the documentary, they literally give examples of this.

They were asking Aziz about the Kwik E Mart and Kal Penn to do an Apu accent because they saw it on the Simpsons.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
It created a stereotype that gave bigots an easy thing to humiliate them with.

The whole show is stereotypes, of which the majority existed in cultures before The Simpsons came along. It simply added its own spin on existing stereotypes, some of which have been around for tens if not hundreds of years.

You're doing the thing where the Conservative-right imply that because comedy or adult content exists, anyone problematic that is exposed to that content can have said content put forward as the sole/main reason for their anti-social/violent/problematic behaviour. Why throw out the thousands if not millions of people who can watch or play something without going out their front door and be abusing/mocking strangers?

I've said it a few times to people on this forum, you're going to have to accept bad people enjoy the same things you enjoy, as bad people still want to have fun, play games, watch movies, laugh, eat in the restaurants you like and use the same brands of phones/gadgets/etc.

I just posted actual scientifically backed research and studies above touching on why children and kids other and say/do problematic things (often based on race). It's not primarily based on The Simpsons toying around with stereotypes. Media and content consumed can influence, but most well-adjusted adults and kids that are educated quickly understand what a show like The Simpsons is. It's based on satire, hyperbole and comedy. You can't behave like the characters in The Simpsons, for the most part, in society, and not face social consequences.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,490
Kitchener, ON
That observation of mine being said, I still think the creators here should just be ending the show soon, respectfully writing Apu out of the series for good, or giving changing the voice acting a go, but I don't think the latter will be widely accepted by anyone unhappy without the character being completely re-written.
Just to make an observation as someone who is, actually, watching The Simpons on a weekly basis, I suspect your middle solution has already been quietly implemented while the show's brass goes out of their way to lambast the issue and stoke its flames across social media. I honestly can't recall a single instance of Apu having a speaking line or appearing as anything more than a background character this entire production run. I think even Manjula has had speaking lines more recently than him and that would have been 7 episodes ago, if at all.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
Children in the 90s/00s didn't get it from before they were born, they got it from the Simpsons.

But as a child of the 90's I can tell you from experience, like other posters have, that people got it from many sources, not least their racist parents and limited interaction with minorities within their communities.

I am down with a lot of the contemporary criticism of Apu and a white guy doing the accent was never ok. But this retrospectively trashing the show and piling all the blame on the character bcause of a limited frame of reference is wrong-headed imo.

Not condescending to Ansari etc about their experiences but I haven't heard their comments in full context.
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Just to make an observation as someone who is, actually, watching The Simpons on a weekly basis, I suspect your middle solution has already been quietly implemented while the show's brass goes out of their way to lambast the issue and stoke its flames across social media. I honestly can't recall a single instance of Apu having a speaking line or appearing as anything more than a background character this entire production run. I think even Manjula has had speaking lines more recently than him and that would have been 7 episodes ago, if at all.

Possibly, I rarely watch the modern Simpsons consistently as I burnt out on it. If this comes to part that Apu is just written out I guess the next issue will be debating whether old episodes of The Simpsons with him in it should be broadcasted anymore.

Doing it "silently" doesn't give a conclusive ending to this situation though, so if the character isn't officially written out of the series, then it will still be possible he comes back. If they are going to go down this route it would be a better solution to give Apu a final episode where it's made clear he's moving away or something and won't be coming back.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,254
Sydney
But as a child of the 90's I can tell you from experience, like other posters have, that people got it from many sources, not least their racist parents and limited interaction with minorities within their communities.

I am down with a lot of the contemporary criticism of Apu and a white guy doing the accent was never ok. But this retrospectively trashing the show and piling all the blame on the character bcause of a limited frame of reference is wrong-headed imo.

Not condescending to Ansari etc about their experiences but I haven't heard their comments in full context.

Go watch the documentary. It doesn't pile all the blame anywhere and you might actually understand what the people who were victims of racial abuse are actually saying.

Until then you're making excuses for something in the face of an argument you haven't heard.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,254
Sydney
The whole show is stereotypes, of which the majority existed in cultures before The Simpsons came along. It simply added its own spin on existing stereotypes, some of which have been around for tens if not hundreds of years.

You're doing the thing where the Conservative-right imply that because comedy or adult content exists, anyone problematic that is exposed to that content can have said content put forward as the sole/main reason for their anti-social/violent/problematic behaviour. Why throw out the thousands if not millions of people who can watch or play something without going out their front door and be abusing/mocking strangers?

I've said it a few times to people on this forum, you're going to have to accept bad people enjoy the same things you enjoy, as bad people still want to have fun, play games, watch movies, laugh, eat in the restaurants you like and use the same brands of phones/gadgets/etc.

I just posted actual scientifically backed research and studies above touching on why children and kids other and say/do problematic things (often based on race). It's not primarily based on The Simpsons toying around with stereotypes. Media and content consumed can influence, but most well-adjusted adults and kids that are educated quickly understand what a show like The Simpsons is. It's based on satire, hyperbole and comedy. You can't behave like the characters in The Simpsons, for the most part, in society, and not face social consequences.

I'll echo the same thing to you. Watch the documentary. It doesn't say it made people racist, it doesn't say it's the reason for racism. It doesn't say it's the only stereotype in the Simpsons.

It's fans and non fans of the series talking about how it affected them and giving ideas on how to change the character moving forward.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I'll echo the same thing to you. Watch the documentary. It doesn't say it made people racist, it doesn't say it's the reason for racism. It doesn't say it's the only stereotype in the Simpsons.

It's fans and non fans of the series talking about how it affected them and giving ideas on how to change the character moving forward.

I know it affected people poorly, that's undeniable. I simply take a different approach to how education and the tackling of what I would say are the real underlying causes of bullying and othering can be worked on. Groening dug his own grave here not attempting to better engage than a pretty weak one-liner. There are a million better ways he could attempt to construct evidence to show the unfortunate lived experiences of some are primarily down to deeper issues than The Simpsons. Even if catchphrases or stereotypes from The Simpsons were used. As I said, thousands if not millions can watch The Simpsons and do not go outside and randomly start abusing others. They understand what stereotypes are. Even kids too. Not every single kid in school bullies. It's simply more prevalent with children, but as I said to you I posted some scientific reasoning above where young underdeveloped minds can be more susceptible to othering and acting out.

Apart from speaking better than Groening has, my personal opinion does side on simply respectfully write the character out. At this stage with where The Simpsons is it's not really going to affect anything, and the poster above just said Apu is hardly in it anymore anyway.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
You have 0 interest in a listening and hearing what I say, and the only interest you have here is twisting my words , I never said thinking about inequality makes me cry.

jesus man how old are you fucking 12? Yeah I typed all that shit on my phone to fool you! Cant you see I dont give a crap about equality!?

Come the fuck on. Im outta this thread. Only wanted to share my thoughts on it not start a fucking discussion with people like you who wont take what I say at face value.

You post a 'there are starving kids in Africa' fallacy and then act like a victim when people call you out on it. I mean c'mon.

But as a child of the 90's I can tell you from experience, like other posters have, that people got it from many sources, not least their racist parents and limited interaction with minorities within their communities.

I am down with a lot of the contemporary criticism of Apu and a white guy doing the accent was never ok. But this retrospectively trashing the show and piling all the blame on the character bcause of a limited frame of reference is wrong-headed imo.

Not condescending to Ansari etc about their experiences but I haven't heard their comments in full context.

You should watch the documentary.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,254
Sydney
I know it affected people poorly, that's undeniable. I simply take a different approach to how education and the tackling of what I would say are the real underlying causes of bullying and othering can be worked on. Groening dug his own grave here not attempting to better engage than a pretty weak one-liner. There are a million better ways he could attempt to construct evidence to show the unfortunate lived experiences of some are primarily down to deeper issues than The Simpsons. Even if catchphrases or stereotypes from The Simpsons were used. As I said, thousands if not millions can watch The Simpsons and do not go outside and randomly start abusing others. They understand what stereotypes are. Even kids too. Not every single kid in school bullies. It's simply more prevalent with children, but as I said to you I posted some scientific reasoning above where young underdeveloped minds can be more susceptible to othering and acting out.

Apart from speaking better than Groening has, my personal opinion does side on simply respectfully write the character out. At this stage with where The Simpsons is it's not really going to affect anything, and the poster above just said Apu is hardly in it anymore anyway.

The model is already sort of there in the WB Cartoon disclosure thing, and while I don't think Apu is as bad as a stereotype as any of that, it does bear some reflection. Yes ultimately the past can't be changed, and we can agree Groening's response was terrible.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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The Simpsons were at their peak but the racist kids didn't really use "come again" or Apu as a slur, instead they used to say "bud bud ding ding 2.99" - this was a horrible British racist phrase which did not come from The Simpsons and it's origins I assume come from a more explicitly racist caricature they probably heard from their parents and older relatives.

That accent comes from Peter Sellers in The Party, shich is the accent that Hank Azaria copied for Apu.

It's a white man doing an impression of a white man doing brownface.



As for the "It wasn't offensive back in the day" nonsense I've heard from some people (and the Simpsons show itself), the people that created Goodness Gracious Me originally wanted to call their show "Peter Sellers is Dead" because they hated that accent so much. That was over 20 years ago so don't give me that bullshit, it was racist back then as well but nobody gave a shit what brown people thought.

Now, thanks to the internet, social media and more South Asian voices in the media white people have to pretend they care about racism until the time comes to do something about it and then that's when the whataboutery, slippery slope and outrage culture fuckery begins.
 
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