Should Games Journalists talk about the 'Red Dead | Killzone Effect' in their reviews?

[Lady Bow]

By 'Red Dead | Killzone Effect' I mean having massively more input lag than your normal baseline games.

Just out of curiosity and boredom....I spent a half an hour combing through Red Dead 2's and Killzone 2's metacritics to see if there were any mentions about input lag or latency by using my trusty CTRL + F function. I browsed all the popular outlets like Giant Bomb, EasyAllies, GameTrailers, IGN, Destructoid, 1up, etc etc and I found no mention of input lag for both games using multiple search terms and language.

Just for some ballpark references, Red Dead Redemption 2 clocks in at 14 frames of lag at 30FPS for the walking input. (credit to Dan Lowe for his analyis on YouTube and for his chart below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWYTOOtplY8


Meanwhile from this input lag analysis done by DigitalFoundry/Eurogamer on Killzone 2:




Killzone 2 to my surprise actually has less lag than Red Dead Redemption 2 in this testing instance at 12 frames of lag from controller input to the game reacting. Keep in mind that I'm not sure if Digital Foundry was testing on the new patch that lowered latency or the original 1.00 version that sparked controversy.

With all that said, I was psyched for Red Dead 2 ever since the announcement trailer as Red Dead Redemption 1 is one of my favorite games of the previous generation. I was excited by all the amazing reviews from games journalists and all that pre-release buzz. Then I booted the game up and got through the prologue and I could tell something was really really off with the controls and latency. I was watching Giant Bomb's coverage of their game of the year and Dan Ryckert was pretty much in the same situation as myself.

Which begs the question: do you think game journalists should throw disclaimers for input lag? Even if they don't mind it?

 

[sheaaaa]

If they feel it affects the experience? Doesn't for me so I wouldn't.

 

[Mr.Beep]

I mean, if the review is for hardcore gamers then sure. Something for the masses like IGN or Gamespot, hell no.

 

[DGenerator]

The fact that you're using the word "disclaimers" screams that you think reviews are objective, which...

No.

 

[Spinluck]

Some people really do not care about the input lag as much as you'd think.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Some people are willing to suffer through dogshit gameplay to get to the next story beat

 

[Dreamboum]

The vast majority of people does not care about input lag. There is also mass hysteria about input lag that is way overblown.

You have to consider that most people buys cheap ass TV that adds tons of display lag to begin with. I can assuredly tell you that display lag isn't a selling point

 

[TheFurizzlyBear]

Its up to how the reviewer feels, if it affects their experience then they should say something, if not then dont mention it. It was something I never noticed in Red Dead while it was something that bothered me in Killzone.

 

[Resilient]

No, no and no.

Input lag is a non-factor for games that don't require precision control/snappiness, provided it still controls reasonably. For example, I don't need Arthur Morgan to control like Dante or Big Boss in MGS5.
But if Dante controlled like Arthur Morgan...then it's a problem.

Ya dig?

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

99.999999999999999999% of people literally don't care even a tiny bit at all.

I'd say 100x more people care about 60 fps vs 30 fps and even that is a tiny tiny tiny minority.

 

[MZZ]

It depends on the reviewer if its significant enough for them to notice and affects their experience.

Reviewers already mention responsiveness if it is important to the game they are playing.

 

[Lady Bow]

The fact that you're using the word "disclaimers" screams that you think reviews are objective, which...

No.

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It goes without saying that reviews are subjective in nature but there's also the objective parts in laying out in detail what the game has to offer such as game modes, features, etc. I think input lag or lackthereof is something that journalists can touch on a little as it can make or break a game for a lot of people since at its root, it controls how the game plays and feels. Reviewers probably won't focus on that for a while but I hope it's something that slowly catches on in the future. (not holding my breath)

 

[HommePomme]

462ms input lag is actually super super super bad if anyone's ever done any front end software engineering. They should get docked for this because it's actually so noticeable

 

[2shd]

If a game has input latency that noticably hinders the response of the gameplay why would someone not want a review to mention it?

I don't understand why some people get so sensitive about product reviews.

 

[Coi]

Nah, no one cares about that besides some hardcore gamers. It's less than 1%

 

[Video Games Are Dumb]

I don't understand why some people get so sensitive about product reviews.

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Games are art.

 

[Fat4all]

Games are art.

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[DGenerator]

If a game has input latency that noticably hinders the response of the gameplay why would someone not want a review to mention it?

I don't understand why some people get so sensitive about product reviews.

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Because saying...

Do you think game journalists should throw disclaimers for input lag? Even if they don't mind it?

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...implies objectivity. As if it's up to reviewers to be gauging the milliseconds of response time for inputs as if that is a driving factor in most video games, and give PSA-style warnings about input buffers, "Even if they don't mind it."

Like, it's totally the driving factor for video games where every frame matters. Leave it up to Digital Foundry and tech-oriented overviewers, not people reviewing a piece of art as if it was a series of 1s and 0s. Games are not solely, nor primarily, products.

 

[Video Games Are Dumb]

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Both can be and are true!

 

[Dreamboum]

If a game has input latency that noticably hinders the response of the gameplay why would someone not want a review to mention it?

I don't understand why some people get so sensitive about product reviews.

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They should mention it. But humans are poor indicators of actual input lag, and the testing methods we use are not 100% accurate (at least the cheap ones where you use a high speed camera and gauge input lag by filming yourself pressing a button).

How much is the lag ? How much is the startup of the animation ? How much is the TV ? How much is because of framerate fluctuations. How is a poor reviewer who is more into writing than engineering is going to know about any of that shit.

 

[leng jai]

Most of the time they don't even talk about frame rate when it's constantly below 30, let alone input lag.

 

[Igniz12]

No, no and no.

Input lag is a non-factor for games that don't require precision control/snappiness, provided it still controls reasonably. For example, I don't need Arthur Morgan to control like Dante or Big Boss in MGS5.
But if Dante controlled like Arthur Morgan...then it's a problem.

Ya dig?

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So how is anyone supposed to know if Dante controls like a tank if no one is supposed to talk about it? If you think the way Dante controls is integeral to the gameplay then why should it not be brought up? Shit makes no sense.


To OP: Well I remember some review site brought it up but they got shat on for trying to stir drama/clickbait. They did dock it points for the controls iirc.

 

[Deleted member 43872]

Reviewers aren't likely to use the terms "input lag" or "latency," and unless they put in the work to measure it, they shouldn't. Reviewers should, and do, use experiential / subjective descriptions of how a game feels to play, usually with terms like "controls" or "game feel."

For example, I looked up less-than-10/10 reviews on OpenCritic and found this from PC Mag:

There are also small control issues that I had gripes with, though I did manage to adjust to their quirks as the game went on. Arthur maneuvers with all the grace and finesse of a tank, for example, so every step, twist, and turn you input feels sluggish. His movement looks fantastic and incredibly natural in-game, but feels stiff in execution. The cover system is finicky, so I had trouble getting into a safe position when leaning against irregular surfaces or walls. Aiming also feels clunky, which negatively impacts the gunplay.

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[leng jai]

No, no and no.

Input lag is a non-factor for games that don't require precision control/snappiness, provided it still controls reasonably. For example, I don't need Arthur Morgan to control like Dante or Big Boss in MGS5.
But if Dante controlled like Arthur Morgan...then it's a problem.

Ya dig?

Click to shrink...

We actually do need Arthur to control half decently when we're trying to shoot shit in the game using free aim though.

 

[GMM]

Not every game are built equally and have the same design goals. The controls in Red Dead and input lag have been a non-issue for me and tons of other people, sometimes we should just accept when something isn't for us and let others enjoy what is universally acclaimed as a great game.

 

[Deleted member 12833]

What's up with all the RDR2 threads lately.

Also Killzone 2 plays like a masterpiece

 

[Deleted member 13645]

It wasn't in the review, but Jeff Gerstmann called it out in the Game of the Year deliberations.

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The gif is Jeff commenting about how long it takes for Arthur to go from stand still to moving once you press the stick.

 

[Deleted member 227]

Just out of curiosity and boredom....I spent a half an hour combing through Red Dead 2's and Killzone 2's metacritics to see if there were any mentions about input lag or latency by using my trusty CTRL + F function. I browsed all the popular outlets like Giant Bomb, EasyAllies, GameTrailers, IGN, Destructoid, 1up, etc etc and I found no mention of input lag for both games using multiple search terms and language.

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From GB reviews on RDR2:

Arthur moves at a methodical pace, and while there are some sections where the controls feel flat out unintuitive or unresponsive, more often it's just a matter of letting Arthur's animations play out.

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From GB review on KZ2:

Controlling Killzone 2 feels a bit different from other first-person shooters, as the turning radius has a bit of weight to it. You can't just snap around at a moment's notice. This is something the first game had, as well, but it doesn't feel as cumbersome here. The animation still looks great, but it doesn't come at the expense of your control over the action. In the campaign you'll come across a few spots where you're asked to use the motion control of the Sixaxis to turn valves or plant explosives. It's a bit weird and feels clunky the first time you encounter it, but once you know to expect it a few more times, it's fine.

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It's there, it's just bundled together with the rest of control complaints.

 

[Kappa]

Animation frames or lag?

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

Game Journalist reviews should talk about gameplay in general more. All the gameplay/mission design compliants of RDR2 were non-existent (some here and t here) until last month. I don't know why reviewers skim over gameplay but galk about the fucking story/graphics.

 

[Abriael]

Journalists should talk about what they think is relevant.

 

[2shd]

Games are art.

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Like, it's totally the driving factor for video games where every frame matters. Leave it up to Digital Foundry and tech-oriented overviewers, not people reviewing a piece of art as if it was a series of 1s and 0s. Games are not solely, nor primarily, products.

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I'm not sure if these comments are actually serious or not, but games having artistic merit does not preclude video games from being an inherently interactive medium. Games could be considered art but even if so, it would be art you interact with.

The idea that noticably delayed controls affecting the core interactive feedback loop of a game should be ignored because it somehow disrespects the creation as art is ridiculous.

 

[Bishop89]

It's all subjective, if the reviewer feels it's worth mentioning then they will.

 

[Smash-It Stan]

People dont care about input lag no matter the game. The megaman x legacy collection(any system) and the metal slug anthology(ps4) all have TERRIBLE input lag, you have a video here and there but 0 patches for them.

 

[More_Badass]

It should be mentioned if the person playing feel it's worth mentioning/if they noticed it and felt it impacted their experience

Unless it's a technical analysis, then of course it should be discussed at length

 

[datbapple]

You don't want atrocious input lag play a character action game (which I love)

Its a different, slower game and honestly it's a little obnoxious but you get over it and it doesn't start to bother you once you are playing for a while.

 

[Railgun]

I can't for the life of me understand why people keep using the movement delay for the basis of the input lag problem rather than the camera. The movement has so much input lag because of the rag doll system their games use (can't remember the name) but it doesn't excuse the terrible aiming controls.

Are there any graphs testing this or are they all just exaggerated examples using the movement instead of camera?

 

[Resilient]

So how is anyone supposed to know if Dante controls like a tank if no one is supposed to talk about it? If you think the way Dante controls is integeral to the gameplay then why should it not be brought up? Shit makes no sense.

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OP asked if it should be brought up in reviews. I said only if it has a major impact to the gameplay. If the game controls reasonably, it's a non-factor. Arthur controlling the way he does in RDR2 doesn't break the game.

We actually do need Arthur to control half decently when we're trying to shoot shit in the game using free aim though.

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He does though. I dunno man, it's really subjective. I personally wouldn't want Arthur to control any better than what he does, the game would feel off for me if I was able to run around like Snake does in MGS5. Or duck and weave like Max Payne in MP3. I can see why you want it to control better though. But it's not game breaking like a lot of posters are making it out to be over the last 3 days..

 

[NinjaScooter]

They should speak about whatever affects their experience.

And people on Internet forums should quit seeking validation from others people's opinions.

 

[2shd]

People dont care about input lag no matter the game. The megaman x legacy collection(any system) and the metal slug anthology(ps4) all have TERRIBLE input lag, you have a video here and there but 0 patches for them.

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No patches to fix it is more a case of the publishers not caring. Sadly, stuff like that seems common for a lot of those emulated collections.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

[edit] IGNORE ME I can't read

 

[potatohead]

From GB reviews on RDR2:


From GB review on KZ2:


It's there, it's just bundled together with the rest of control complaints.

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Impressively reasonable on both

Though personally RDR2 input lag still damages my experience, though I'm about to try it again soon

 

[Video Games Are Dumb]

I'm not sure if these comments are actually serious or not, but games having artistic merit does not preclude video games from being an inherently interactive medium. Games could be considered art but even if so, it would be art you interact with.

The idea that noticably delayed controls affecting the core interactive feedback loop of a game should be ignored because it somehow disrespects the creation as art is ridiculous.

Click to shrink...

Input lag can be, and in this case, is a creative choice. No different than a movie having a sad ending or a song changing tempo. They can be critiqued for these choices but viewing the work as just a product where the player is in control totally misses the point of video games. It is the illusion of choice and influence that make games what they are.

 

[Igniz12]

OP asked if it should be brought up in reviews. I said only if it has a major impact to the gameplay. If the game controls reasonably, it's a non-factor. Arthur controlling the way he does in RDR2 doesn't break the game.



He does though. I dunno man, it's really subjective. I personally wouldn't want Arthur to control any better than what he does, the game would feel off for me if I was able to run around like Snake does in MGS5. Or duck and weave like Max Payne in MP3. I can see why you want it to control better though. But it's not game breaking like a lot of posters are making it out to be over the last 3 days..

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But we know it did looking at the latest mega thread for RDR2 on Era. Controls should always be brought up because it is so integral to the gameplay. Like you cannot separate the two. Of course there are varying degrees on how much controls can affect the game but I just don't see what merit there is in NOT wanting to talk about how a game controls. Just suggesting that controls are a "non-factor" is such a weird take when talking about videogames.

 

[DGenerator]

I'm not sure if these comments are actually serious or not, but games having artistic merit does not preclude video games from being an inherently interactive medium. Games could be considered art but even if so, it would be art you interact with.

The idea that noticably delayed controls affecting the core interactive feedback loop of a game should be ignored because it somehow disrespects the creation as art is ridiculous.

Click to shrink...

You are consistently avoiding confronting the point I've brought up multiple times; mandating input lag as a *disclaimer* that should be mandated whether it matters to the reviewer or not is utterly ridiculous. Anything that mandates people in reviews to mention something is ridiculous. It's not an objective metric, and input lag is wholly important depending on the context of both the reviewer and the game type.

 

[Nintendo]

No, reviewers should focus on whatever they personally prioritize. A review is just a personal opinion after all.

Most of the players don't even know what input lag is. I know someone who plays shooters with soap opera effect and high input lag. I tried to explain, didn't get it. Still prefers to play that way.

That lag test for RDR2 is for one animation only by the way.

 

[Pingal Pratyush]

I mean, if the review is for hardcore gamers then sure. Something for the masses like IGN or Gamespot, hell no.

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Ahahaha

 

[wolfshirt]

I know this sounds trite, but people being paid to review video games are either:

1) not writing their reviews for people like us, OP.

2) not discerning enough to identify very perceptible and measurable input lag.

 

[Pingal Pratyush]

I can't comment on the other games, but for Red Dead Redemption 2, I think the input lag is on purpose. This gives the player a smooth, calm and immersive experience of exploring the wild-west. At least, that's why I liked the game.

But again, yeah, for many people it might be a problem. And for many, it is barely noticeable.

Bu the way guys, a very Happy New Year!

 

[Parenegade]

I mean clearly, reviewers don't care lol. I left my reverence for video game reviews in 2018.