Sega Presents: Fog Gaming [Cloud Gaming Service for Arcades]

[Deleted member 31873]

Wish America still had arcades. Those were fun back in the day.

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America doesn't have arcades?

Arcades have been making a bit of a comeback over the past few years here in the Netherlands. As someone who witnessed the downfall of 90's arcades in the UK, it's very surreal to see how they've managed to succeed again.

They're still ~75% redemption games, but there's usually a decent selection of actual games too; mostly racing games and light-gun games, and I don't mind the redemption games if that's what helps to keep the arcade businesses afloat (most of the arcade visitors seem to be the young/casual crowd). There's also a few arcades that specialize in older/retro games, and at least one location I know of that games from all eras and genres, including a nice selection of Japanese music rhythm games.

Of course, most of the arcades are currently closed right now. :(

 

[Filipus]

This is a pretty big deal for Japan. If you hyped yourself up for a western-oriented announcement you only have yourself to blame. This was a JP tech guy hyping up a JP tech scoop.

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On the level of the Playstation 5 announcement. It's not our fault he used hyperbole to the max.

 

[KC-Slater]

This is sort of interesting, even if not applicable to those outside of Japan. Essentially they are leveraging their physical assets (urban retail/arcade centres) to be monetized 24/7, as opposed to regular 'retail hours'. (Not unlike what will likely happen this decade with gas stations in urban centres in North America with the advent of non-petroleum-based vehicles.)

They will likely introduce some new arcade hardware interface with such a network at some point, and start rolling that out. While its application hasn't been expressly communicated (at least that I've read) outside of assumed enterprise use, perhaps this will all come full circle with the touch-interface patent that was discussed earlier in the thread. Perhaps this is the "at home" solution to arcade-specific controls, should a steaming/consumer application for the FOG be introduced? (Many have argued that the real barrier to entry/differential with regards to arcades is the amusement-like, hyper-specific input methods used.)

*edited for clarity/filthy typos.

 

[MufausaThe3rd]

For those who don't know. Japanese arcades (fighting games specifically) have a really bad time with input latency on the arcade boards. Like it's fucking terrible. It's a big reason why you see a lot of older fighting games still being played in arcades and why you see a lot more Japanese players running their fighting games on consoles (SFV, Tekken, ArcSys games, etc) more often too. NesicaxLive2 and Sega ALL.NET are known to have input delay so bad. That it makes console online gaming (games with delay based netcode) feel like a joke in comparison. Fighting games usually do well in arcades. But with the input delay in more recent titles. It's not even worth it for many people who live in Japan. If this cloud gaming stuff is better than what they have rn. I hope that Taito follows suit.

 

[Deleted member 7883]

This seems awesome for Japan. I'd love to see this come to the states, but I doubt it. Damn, I wish arcades were still popular in the states.

 

[I KILL PXLS]

At least that's more interesting than Game Gear Micro. I was never expecting anything huge from this anyway despite the Famitsu guy hyping it up.

 

[Kyussons]

On the level of the Playstation 5 announcement. It's not our fault he used hyperbole to the max.

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Console gaming benefits from a thriving arcade scene, games like Tekken, Virtua Fighter, F-Zero GX... all of them have 100 % arcade dna. Accesible AA games like Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis... are already dead.

This is good news for the industry, Sega/Namco/Taito/Konami need to revive the sector and find new revenue sources or we risk losing more big franchises & genres. ( niche companies like Cave, to give you an example, arent publishing any new shmups ).

 

[Outrun]

Sega bought the rights to Turok 64?

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That was cold.

 

[super moustique]

This sounds pretty great if it works well.

 

[808s & Villainy]

America doesn't have arcades?

Arcades have been making a bit of a comeback over the past few years here in the Netherlands. As someone who witnessed the downfall of 90's arcades in the UK, it's very surreal to see how they've managed to succeed again.

They're still ~75% redemption games, but there's usually a decent selection of actual games too; mostly racing games and light-gun games, and I don't mind the redemption games if that's what helps to keep the arcade businesses afloat (most of the arcade visitors seem to be the young/casual crowd). There's also a few arcades that specialize in older/retro games, and at least one location I know of that games from all eras and genres, including a nice selection of Japanese music rhythm games.

Of course, most of the arcades are currently closed right now. :(

Click to shrink...

They're sort of coming back with barcades, but they really have to mix in the alcohol aspect with it. I doubt as many people would go to them if there was no alcohol, not that I'm complaining, it's a pretty nice mix

 

[Dooble]

Console gaming benefits from a thriving arcade scene, games like Tekken, Virtua Fighter, F-Zero GX... all of them have 100 % arcade dna. Accesible AA games like Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis... are already dead.

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Not necesarily because arcades these days gatekeep their games for exclusivity or just have controllers that are too specialized.

 

[deep_dish]

Sega bought the rights to Turok 64?

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I laughed

 

[RelaxItsJustMe]

This is obviously not a big deal to the west but neither was that "Sega and Xbox partnership to release the Xbox as a Sega console in Japan" fantasy going around.

This could be a huge deal in Japan and it's definitely more of a scoop than having it be Sega Series X which wouldn't even really change anything except for the name.

If this can even remotely save arcades then it'll be a huge deal (though I doubt this'll save them).

 

[Bus-TEE]

So a Game Gear retro console that's the size of a grain of sand and a form of cloud computing for Japanese arcades are SEGA's big reveals.

I can't say I'm disappointed as I expected nothing in the first place.

 

[Kyussons]

Not necesarily because arcades these days gatekeep their games for exclusivity or just have controllers that are too specialized.

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Can you blame them ? Thats a consequence of the amusement market being stagnant for so long. They need to attract new customers to the arcades, look at Sega, a company with a lot of propietary IPs having to get licences from franchises like Kancolle , Miku or Fate Grand Order for their arcade games, meanwhile franchises like OutRun, VF, Afterburner, Virtua Tennis...remain dormant.

 

[Tobor]

So a Game Gear retro console that's the size of a grain of sand and a form of cloud computing for Japanese arcades are SEGA's big reveals.

I can't say I'm disappointed as I expected nothing in the first place.

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The Game Gear is also cloud computing. If you blow on your hand it flies up to the clouds and disappears.

 

[ghibli99]

Sega bought the rights to Turok 64?

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LOL That made me chuckle. Which I definitely needed today. :)

 

[Bus-TEE]

The Game Gear is also cloud computing. If you blow on your hand it flies up to the clouds and disappears.

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Ha. :)

You can use it to make a wish when you blow on it like a Dandelion, "I wish..... for a mini retro console of the Atari Lynx"......

 

[Dooble]

Can you blame them ? Thats a consequence of the amusement market being stagnant for so long. They need to attract new customers to the arcades, look at Sega, a company with a lot of propietary IPs licensing franchises like Kancolle , Miku or Fate Grand Order for their arcade games, meanwhile franchises like OutRun, VF, Afterburner, Virtua Tennis...remain dormant.

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It's more that games like OutRun and Virtua Tennis are not the type of arcade games that are played anymore. It's about PC-like MMO/Multiplayer type experiences like Border Break, Sangokushi Taisen, Wonderland Wars etc. Essentially, games that westerners like to play on their PC, are being played in the arcades in Japan (see Counterstrike arcade port)

Even their new racing games like Initial D and SWDC are not casual experiences that you simply play once, they are more commitment based rather than the casual experience like OutRun or Daytona USA.

Japanese arcades either cater to the super casual (Crane games, Rhythm games) or the 'obsessive' type. The inbetween is now gone (Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis). What this streaming service does, is to keep the hardcore fans coming back and stay invested rather than bring in a new audience.

 

[MufausaThe3rd]

America doesn't have arcades?

Arcades have been making a bit of a comeback over the past few years here in the Netherlands. As someone who witnessed the downfall of 90's arcades in the UK, it's very surreal to see how they've managed to succeed again.

They're still ~75% redemption games, but there's usually a decent selection of actual games too; mostly racing games and light-gun games, and I don't mind the redemption games if that's what helps to keep the arcade businesses afloat (most of the arcade visitors seem to be the young/casual crowd). There's also a few arcades that specialize in older/retro games, and at least one location I know of that games from all eras and genres, including a nice selection of Japanese music rhythm games.

Of course, most of the arcades are currently closed right now. :(

Click to shrink...

Compared to Canada. You guys have it really good with arcades imo. Definitely more than just your typical barcade with Ms. Pac-Man, Area 51, The Simpsons, and Skee-ball. I want games from the 90s and forward. Better yet. You guys have freaking Round 1 in America. I wished that we could have that in Canada. Not to mention all of the mom and pop places in States like Chicago (Galloping Ghost Arcade, Pinball Hall of Fame, etc). America has it great when it comes to arcades.

 

[MikeProtagonist]

Some things to consider, since most people don't seem familiar with Japanese arcades.

* It's not limited to Sega titles. Sega runs a huge chain of arcades that are in every other shopping mall or shopping street. They have all kinds of games there. Arcades are quite popular overall, from what I can tell spending hours and hours in them last year.

* Most systems nowadays are not your average JAMMA style joystick + buttons setup. Most are music titles with custom inputs or some kind of grinding action stuff like Gundam, Fate, Dissidia etc. Some racing and shooting, but those are also custom cabinets. And a ton of photo booths, gambling machines and whatever. However, all these probably run on some kind of PC hardware.

* Sega arcades rarely have original cabinets anymore (like, an actual SF3 cabinet). They tend to have a row of the internet connected multi machines where you can choose from 5-20 fighters and shooters. Those are also PC:s.

* Virtua Fighter is fucking dead. I couldn't find it in any Club Sega, only in some dedicated retro arcades. Same with any other major fighter that isn't Tekken 7 or Street Fighter V.

Since most of the games rely on split-second timing and/or custom inputs, I don't see how they could stream them home even to Japan. Worldwide access is completely out of the question. I'd say it's much more likely that they use them for some generic cloud computing.

 

[Deleted member 51848]

Frog Gaming?

 

[Runner]

could it be like:
- each arcade machine also streams
- can access the arcade machine remotely or in person
- can access arcade machine remotely even when the arcade is closed as long as thje machine is on

 

[Thatguy]

We need more details.

 

[Jraphics Horse]

could it be like:
- each arcade machine also streams
- can access the arcade machine remotely or in person
- can access arcade machine remotely even when the arcade is closed as long as thje machine is on

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure how else the info could be interpreted.
It's possible that each machine can run any game on demand, not just the one it's labeled with. If they have all the games stored on a local server, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Deleted member 31873]

They're sort of coming back with barcades, but they really have to mix in the alcohol aspect with it. I doubt as many people would go to them if there was no alcohol, not that I'm complaining, it's a pretty nice mix

Click to shrink...

We have a couple of those in Amsterdam, one of which is located in the red light district literally right opposite some window girls. That one seems to thrive mostly from the tourist crowd. The barcades here are pretty small though; maybe only 15 games max, and some of them are usually broken, so I tend to avoid them these days. That said, I have found a few of my old favourites in them (Manx TT Superbike was a nice find; I played that a ton in the 90's), but the games tend to be changed pretty often.

The vast majority of Dutch arcades are marketed as "Family Entertainment Centers", and most visitors tend to be either parents with young kids (mainly during the day), or teenagers/young adults (mainly later at night).

 

[Orayn]

Despite not being what people expected, this is a really cool idea. You've got a geographically smaller area and this is a smart way of placing the actual hardware that streamed games could run on. It still has all the inherent limitations of streaming but overall seems like one of the better ideas on how to implement it.

 

[ArjanN]

America doesn't have arcades?

Arcades have been making a bit of a comeback over the past few years here in the Netherlands. As someone who witnessed the downfall of 90's arcades in the UK, it's very surreal to see how they've managed to succeed again.

They're still ~75% redemption games, but there's usually a decent selection of actual games too; mostly racing games and light-gun games, and I don't mind the redemption games if that's what helps to keep the arcade businesses afloat (most of the arcade visitors seem to be the young/casual crowd). There's also a few arcades that specialize in older/retro games, and at least one location I know of that games from all eras and genres, including a nice selection of Japanese music rhythm games.

Of course, most of the arcades are currently closed right now. :(

Click to shrink...

i don't think I've seen an arcade in the Netherlands in the last decade.

 

[Deleted member 31873]

i don't think I've seen an arcade in the Netherlands in the last decade.

Click to shrink...

Have you looked for any?

My experience is almost the exact opposite of yours: I moved to the Netherlands in 2004, yet I don't think I saw an arcade here until 2013 when TonTon Club barcade opened in Amsterdam. I've seen at least a dozen more arcades pop up across the country since then.

 

[Giant Enemy Crab]

Aestheticgamer said it was Virtual Reality.
Or maybe it's just a wish...

 

[Saoshyant]

On the level of the Playstation 5 announcement

Click to shrink...

I think that what was said was that it would get people talk on a level similar to the PS5 announcement. And on that front, I'd say it was mostly successful. People online can't stop having an opinion about the Game Gear Micro.

 

[Giant Enemy Crab]

Lag Reduced to Under 1ms: Sega's Fog Gaming Solution - Frontline Gaming Japan

Sega's Fog Gaming solution proposes turning arcades into data centers, reducing cloud lag to under 1ms.

www.frontlinejp.net

 

[Ninjadom]

Does this work on Naomi boards?

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Are internet enabled/networked Naomi boards in arcades in Japan today?

 

[Devilgunman]

Lag Reduced to Under 1ms: Sega's Fog Gaming Solution - Frontline Gaming Japan

Sega's Fog Gaming solution proposes turning arcades into data centers, reducing cloud lag to under 1ms.

www.frontlinejp.net

Click to shrink...

I'm still curious how this can take off. This Fog Gaming is basically Sega's attempt to enter cloud service provider business but I feel their strategy is quite baffling. First of all, incorporating the word "Gaming" into the name of technology itself makes it very confusing. "Fog Gaming" isn't all about video game at all. It's basically Sega version of Microsoft Azure. But instead of making data centers, Sega put their network infrastructure into arcade machines, which lead to concern #2. Fog Gaming requires adoption of new arcade machines. The current arcade boards can't be converted into Fog data centers. Even in the country with highest numbers of arcades, their popularity has been decreasing years after years. Sega paints the bright picture for Fog Gaming as resurrection of the arcades, but would that be the case? How much could owners earn from keeping their machine running throughout the night? What are they gonna do with their current arcade cabinets? Investing into new arcades machines just to earn some changes from off hours seems like poor business decisions. Also considering this is most likely Japan-only thing, I'm not sure how this project got green lit.

 

[B1ggRandall]

If this means Virtua Fighter 6, I'm all in.

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Hell yeah! I need that VF6 for next gen!

 

[jkh13]

This sounds like a pretty terrible idea for a number of reasons.

First of all it's important to understand this isn't a game streaming solution, it's a cloud computing product similar to AWS, Azure, cloud compute etc. They will be competing with players who have the benefit of scale, a dedicated business in cloud and already have low latency edge servers in major cities.

I don't see how SEGA could match the purpose built hardware and support of other providers if they are to double as arcade machines placed in an entertainment setting. How would you guarantee uptime? What sort of support would you receive if things go wrong? How efficient would the hardware be with regards to the components, cooling and network setup compared to a dedicated data center?

Finally the business model seems ill though out. This would require a critical mass of these arcades to convert to the new hardware, this is at a time when arcades are already shrinking in Japan and the owners are running out of cash. Sure SEGA could subsidize the cost but how could they compete with other providers on usage cost if they don't already have the economy of scale?

Their low latency argument doesn't particularly hold up either, most of these providers already have DCs all over the world including near major cities which can provide low latency. I can't imagine a developer picking this nascent, untested solution with low availability and most likely higher cost than going with a tried and tested solution.

Maybe I'm cynical but this really sounds like an idea thought up by an exec who read about cloud technology at some high level and decided that it would be a good idea without digging into the actual details.

 

[IronicSonic]

Hell yeah! I need that VF6 for next gen!

Click to shrink...

Powered by the "cloud", nothing less

 

[Giant Enemy Crab]

This sounds like a pretty terrible idea for a number of reasons.

First of all it's important to understand this isn't a game streaming solution, it's a cloud computing product similar to AWS, Azure, cloud compute etc. They will be competing with players who have the benefit of scale, a dedicated business in cloud and already have low latency edge servers in major cities.

I don't see how SEGA could match the purpose built hardware and support of other providers if they are to double as arcade machines placed in an entertainment setting. How would you guarantee uptime? What sort of support would you receive if things go wrong? How efficient would the hardware be with regards to the components, cooling and network setup compared to a dedicated data center?

Finally the business model seems ill though out. This would require a critical mass of these arcades to convert to the new hardware, this is at a time when arcades are already shrinking in Japan and the owners are running out of cash. Sure SEGA could subsidize the cost but how could they compete with other providers on usage cost if they don't already have the economy of scale?

Their low latency argument doesn't particularly hold up either, most of these providers already have DCs all over the world including near major cities which can provide low latency. I can't imagine a developer picking this nascent, untested solution with low availability and most likely higher cost than going with a tried and tested solution.

Maybe I'm cynical but this really sounds like an idea thought up by an exec who read about cloud technology at some high level and decided that it would be a good idea without digging into the actual details.

Click to shrink...

Well, good points but i think Sega will just adapt their prices if their offer is considered poor. It seems a better solution than leaving game centers decline year after year.

 

[KC-Slater]

This sounds like a pretty terrible idea for a number of reasons.

First of all it's important to understand this isn't a game streaming solution, it's a cloud computing product similar to AWS, Azure, cloud compute etc. They will be competing with players who have the benefit of scale, a dedicated business in cloud and already have low latency edge servers in major cities.

I don't see how SEGA could match the purpose built hardware and support of other providers if they are to double as arcade machines placed in an entertainment setting. How would you guarantee uptime? What sort of support would you receive if things go wrong? How efficient would the hardware be with regards to the components, cooling and network setup compared to a dedicated data center?

Finally the business model seems ill though out. This would require a critical mass of these arcades to convert to the new hardware, this is at a time when arcades are already shrinking in Japan and the owners are running out of cash. Sure SEGA could subsidize the cost but how could they compete with other providers on usage cost if they don't already have the economy of scale?

Their low latency argument doesn't particularly hold up either, most of these providers already have DCs all over the world including near major cities which can provide low latency. I can't imagine a developer picking this nascent, untested solution with low availability and most likely higher cost than going with a tried and tested solution.

Maybe I'm cynical but this really sounds like an idea thought up by an exec who read about cloud technology at some high level and decided that it would be a good idea without digging into the actual details.

Click to shrink...

Arcade machines essentially provide free real estate for Sega to operate their data infrastructure in Japan. They are using other people's energy and retail space to provide a service they will sell themselves. The games are the Trojan horse that get their nodes spread out over the country--beyond their own real estate. This might not work tomorrow, but it certainly could make for a viable solution in a unique environment such as Japan. I don't think the idea can be so easily dismissed.

 

[Sapiens]

Will it pipe in the smell of cigarettes?

 

[Dooble]

Arcade machines essentially provide free real estate for Sega to operate their data infrastructure in Japan. They are using other people's energy and retail space to provide a service they will sell themselves. The games are the Trojan horse that get their nodes spread out over the country--beyond their own real estate. This might not work tomorrow, but it certainly could make for a viable solution in a unique environment such as Japan. I don't think the idea can be so easily dismissed.

Click to shrink...

Worth mentioning that Sega also owns about 200 arcades themselves where they can experiment

 

[jkh13]

Well, good points but i think Sega will just adapt their prices if their offer is considered poor. It seems a better solution than leaving game centers decline year after year.

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It will be very interesting to see the pricing. AWS already operates on a relatively slim profit margin and they have the benefit of scale unlike this. They also don't have to pay the arcade owners, have very power efficiency DCs unlike arcade machines and likely have very high utilization to offset operating costs.

For SEGA to compete I imagine they would need to subsidies heavily (i.e. give it away for free for a year for big customers) to offer a somewhat attractive price for customers and get them to move away from the tried and trusted industry giants.

Arcade machines essentially provide free real estate for Sega to operate their data infrastructure in Japan. They are using other people's energy and retail space to provide a service they will sell themselves.

Click to shrink...

I'm assuming they will have to pay a cut to the arcade owners since it will cost a lot more in electricity, bandwith and cooling to run the machines constantly. Also this would require these arcades to convert to these new machines, most arcades in Japan are installing more and more redemption games since this is the real money maker at the moment, it would be interesting to see how many take the risk now to convert floors back to actual game machines.

 

[Iztok]

I guess in some ways they're back in the platform holder business, then.
Having your own cloud/fog streaming service qualifies these days.

 

[KingBae]

I have so many questions...
So is this more like cloud gaming (server farm) or remote play (individual machines)? The tweet makes it sound like individual machines.

In that case, who benefits from that? Sega or the arcade owner? Like do you connect to a specific arcade machine or just a server?

And if it's about connecting to specific machines, how does it determine which machine at which arcade to connect to?

And if a network of arcade machines become a server for this service, what incentives do arcade owners have to be part of it?

This sounds so strange but I'm all for progress. Pretty damn interesting.

 

[KC-Slater]

It will be very interesting to see the pricing. AWS already operates on a relatively slim profit margin and they have the benefit of scale unlike this. They also don't have to pay the arcade owners, have very power efficiency DCs unlike arcade machines and likely have very high utilization to offset operating costs.

For SEGA to compete I imagine they would need to subsidies heavily (i.e. give it away for free for a year for big customers) to offer a somewhat attractive price for customers and get them to move away from the tried and trusted industry giants.



I'm assuming they will have to pay a cut to the arcade owners since it will cost a lot more in electricity, bandwith and cooling to run the machines constantly. Also this would require these arcades to convert to these new machines, most arcades in Japan are installing more and more redemption games since this is the real money maker at the moment, it would be interesting to see how many take the risk now to convert floors back to actual game machines.

Click to shrink...

They still could be redemption machines, with the servers/arcade hardware inside. (This would arguably make more sense, since these machines are physically larger and have a more generalized appeal. I agree that there will likely be profit sharing for the "fog" functionality, and/or the hardware will be [partially] subsidized by Sega in order to get them out there.

 

[Dooble]

i havent seen many redemption machines by sega in japan, more like medal games, which simulate or gamify gambling