Probably "Wow, we already made all our money back by 2018, within 6 years of the purchase lol"Imagine Disney buying Star Wars for 4 BILLION DOLLARS and not writing out a full trilogy before filming. What were they thinking.
Probably "Wow, we already made all our money back by 2018, within 6 years of the purchase lol"Imagine Disney buying Star Wars for 4 BILLION DOLLARS and not writing out a full trilogy before filming. What were they thinking.
Another day, another reason to lament that the sequel trilogy was written one movie at a time instead of an arc like Lucas did. Idk what they were thinking. They knew they were making a trilogy, why not write the whole thing before shooting the first film??
Snoke's inglorious bisection is literally my favorite Star Wars moment since Vader chucked Palpatine.
That's why he was a good villain in my opinion, he was a spiteful bastard, consumed by his own anger, and all his talk of 'killing the past.." "no jedi, no sith", was him assigning a greater purpose to himself, how he lives with these petty and vindictive actions. Or at least that was my interpretation from TLJ at the time.The part I don't like is the fact that Kylo killing Snoke is supposed to be some huge moment, only for Kylo to continue doing exactly what he and Snoke were already doing the whole movie.
I feel like if Kylo had wound up with a completely different goal after killing Snoke, it would be different. But nope, despite Kylo's speech about letting old things die, his goal is clearly still hunting down the resistance and Luke. The only thing he did that Snoke didn't also want to do was...kill Snoke.
As it stands, both Snoke and the act of killing him seems pointless.
This kind of felt like Rian didn't want to fully commit to putting Kylo on any one path, being nice and letting the next director have an open book where to go with him. It was so open it let JJ turn him back into another Vader, the opposite of what Rian wanted.The part I don't like is the fact that Kylo killing Snoke is supposed to be some huge moment, only for Kylo to continue doing exactly what he and Snoke were already doing the whole movie.
I feel like if Kylo had wound up with a completely different goal after killing Snoke, it would be different. But nope, despite Kylo's speech about letting old things die, his goal is clearly still hunting down the resistance and Luke. The only thing he did that Snoke didn't also want to do was...kill Snoke.
As it stands, both Snoke and the act of killing him seems pointless.
To play Palpatine's advocate here, that's fundamentally what criticism is in a nutshell. When someone says a scene in The Room is wrong, they are saying Tommy Wiseau made the wrong decision, telling the director the story he wrote and created is being told wrong.
I fully agree that Rian Johnson used Snoke for the only narrative purpose he was actually good for, and I wish people disagreeing with that notion had more of an idea of what Snoke should have been instead beyond "not that", but there's no reason to pretend directors, even good ones, are beyond reproach in how they are telling their stories. You can easily say you know the story better than the storyteller, it's just a matter of being able to argue it convincingly.
I liked this bit and the part where Yoda was all it's just a prank bro. Snoke sucks and TLJ gets a bad rap.Snoke's inglorious bisection is literally my favorite Star Wars moment since Vader chucked Palpatine.
Even though TROS completely backtracks on Rey's backstory the ST is still entirely about a new generation being passed the torch as they combat the last cries of fascism from an old empire. TROS even tries to fit that into the theme.and yet he tells a consistant story about:
an innocent boy falling to the dark side
a democracy crumbling
an emperor seizing power
the jedi order falling
a forbidden love
Across three movies
clumsily, but they are present
Yet again, what does story does the ST tell across all three movies? What was clearly planned, beyond "the good guys win"?
They didn't go into the trilogy initially with Anakin being a young boy.There is an innocent young boy, he must be trained in the force and fall to the dark side
And obi-wan must be trained by Yoda and be reckle---wait.This boy must be trained by Obi-Wan, Obi-wan must defeat him and leave him crippled. This must be done in a lava setting
Leia's royalty literally has nothing to do with Padme's royalty lmao. She's a princess because people think she was Bail Organa's biological daughter. Something he was apparently always planning on doing. Did I mention the part where Leia apparently remembers her mother? #plannedbtwThis boy must fall in love with a women of royalty, they must have children. This love must be tragic
The Senate doesn't disband until ANH. 19 years later.
Who said that the emperor needed to manipulate events from the shadows? Nothing from the Ot indicates that this is what happened. the exact opposite in fact.There is an Emperor, he must manipulate events from the shadows and seize power
Again, where is this mentioned in the OT? Or even the production of Ep. 1?There is a galactic capital named Coruscant, it must fall to the Empire
Given SW lexicon Clone Wars could have meant something way less literal. Let alone, clones fighting droids. That wasn't planned. Or part of some outline. They came up with it while establishing a ten year long backstory for Ep. 2. Because oops ep.1 had a child self insert because of George and now we need to actually tell the story.
Even though TROS completely backtracks on Rey's backstory the ST is still entirely about a new generation being passed the torch as they combat the last cries of fascism from an old empire. TROS even tries to fit that into the theme.
They didn't go into the trilogy initially with Anakin being a young boy.
And obi-wan must be trained by Yoda and be reckle---wait.
Leia's royalty literally has nothing to do with Padme's royalty lmao. She's a princess because people think she was Bail Organa's biological daughter. Something he was apparently always planning on doing. Did I mention the part where Leia apparently remembers her mother? #plannedbtw
The Senate doesn't disband until ANH. 19 years later.
Who said that the emperor needed to manipulate events from the shadows? Nothing from the Ot indicates that this is what happened. the exact opposite in fact.
Again, where is this mentioned in the OT? Or even the production of Ep. 1?
Given SW lexicon Clone Wars could have meant something way less literal. Let alone, clones fighting droids. That wasn't planned. Or part of some outline. They came up with it while establishing a ten year long backstory for Ep. 2.
The better question is why would the ST have been worse off if some similar cohesive outline were around from the start?
Do you honestly think Rey being a Palpatine was planned?
Do you honestly think Palpatine coming back was planned?
How do you reconcile these questions with your contention that the prequels "winged far more shit" than the sequels?
It was uninteresting to audiences too until people pretended to care about Stoke after Rian killed him.
There's a nice middle ground between planning every meticulous detail and having no fucking idea what's going to happen. I think it's pretty obvious that not having a basic framework at all was a terrible idea for the ST. Though, they only made it worse by having the third film spend a majority of its runtime trying to overwrite the previous film.I like how some people's argument is that essentially it would be better if it was planned out, but at the same time saying while sure the prequels were planned out they weren't good proving that something planned out doesn't automatically make it good (or better).
I think some people did care about Snoke, a lot of them them thought he was Darth Plageius because of his music, they thought his scar was inflincted from Palpatine, and his master did find a way to cheat death after all.It was uninteresting to audiences too until people pretended to care about Stoke after Rian killed him. The whole discourse for 2 years after the TFA was that Snoke was an uninteresting villain that nobody cares about.
Killing him off in the second movie was shocking and it excited me so much in theater that for the first time ever in a Star Wars movie, I had no idea where the story was going to go.
I like how some people's argument is that essentially it would be better if it was planned out, but at the same time saying while sure the prequels were planned out they weren't good proving that something planned out doesn't automatically make it good (or better).
I know what you're doing here.
It's important to you to pretend that nothing is ever planned because one of the most resonant criticisms of the ST is that planning and overarching vision would have improved the outcome. It's very weird watching you go out of your way to pretend things that were obviously planned weren't in service of your biases. Particularly when the prequels turned out bad anyway.
Hell you'd do better arguing the prequels are examples that merely having a unified plan/vision isn't enough. But you're always going to come back to the same issue, that it is clear to everybody who has ever done any sort of project (in any field!) that plans and guiding visions are a general necessity. The Disney movies had everything else the prequels lacked: charisma, competent directing, snappy dialogue, character relationships, everything you are complaining about above. That's why some of us see it as incredibly unfortunate that something as obvious as cohesion was left on the ST cutting floor when they got so much else (that is so much harder to do) right. It's a depressing waste
The better question is why would the ST have been worse off if some similar cohesive outline were around from the start?
Yet again, do you honestly think Rey being a Palpatine was planned?
Do you honestly think Palpatine coming back was planned?
How do you reconcile these questions with your contention that the prequels "winged far more shit" than the sequels?
It was uninteresting to audiences too until people pretended to care about Stoke after Rian killed him. The whole discourse for 2 years after the TFA was that Snoke was an uninteresting villain that nobody cares about.
Killing him off in the second movie was shocking and it excited me so much in theater that for the first time ever in a Star Wars movie, I had no idea where the story was going to go.
I like how some people's argument is that essentially it would be better if it was planned out, but at the same time saying while sure the prequels were planned out they weren't good proving that something planned out doesn't automatically make it good (or better).
ok
I'm perfectly fine with not doing so ;)But go ahead, answer the questions Crossing Eden has been dodging:
Yup. This is the moment where the sequel trilogy felt like it could go anywhere. And then JJ ruined it with TROS.
The problem with this reasoning is that there's no way to falsify it. Like, truly, short of dimensioning hopping to alternate realities where we see a planned version of the ST by someone, how could anyone possibly convince you that planning has no significant influence?There's a nice middle ground between planning every meticulous detail and having no fucking idea what's going to happen. I think it's pretty obvious that not having a basic framework at all was a terrible idea for the ST. Though, they only made it worse by having the third film spend a majority of its runtime trying to overwrite the previous film.
I wonder if learning Snoke's backstory in TROS actually made anyone happy. We all know who was now: a pickled clone that Sheev operated like a drone, I guess. The wrong has been righted, the sin absolved, the Wookieepedia article fully filled out. Is there anyone who was upset over Snoke having no backstory in TLJ actually satisfied by him getting one in TROS?
Yup. This is the moment where the sequel trilogy felt like it could go anywhere. And then JJ ruined it with TROS.
An argument can be made that that gun was fired in TLJ (pushing Kylo to the brink resulting in him snapping, killing him, and becoming the new Supreme Leader) but just not in a way the viewer liked, which really isn't a valid reasoning for dismissal. He served his purpose.
I apologize for not wanting to engage in a discussion that is nearly as old as this forum itself. I've tried to move on from beating dead horses that have no clear end in sight.
An argument can be made that that gun was fired in TLJ (pushing Kylo to the brink resulting in him snapping, killing him, and becoming the new Supreme Leader) but just not in a way the viewer liked, which really isn't a valid reasoning for dismissal. He served his purpose.
I apologize for not wanting to engage in a discussion that is nearly as old as this forum itself. I've tried to move on from beating dead horses that have no clear end in sight.
I like how some people's argument is that essentially it would be better if it was planned out, but at the same time saying while sure the prequels were planned out they weren't good proving that something planned out doesn't automatically make it good (or better).
Well it's not an opinion. That was Rian's intent and ended up being what happened on screen. You can dislike it but it still happened.Anything that does not happen in the way a viewer liked is a perfectly valid reason for a viewer to be dissatisfied. Thus these are opinions
You are free to think Snoke served his purpose
We are free to feel his potential was squandered
Damn you got me.and yet you posted this a few posts up:
and when engaged, you backed down
I'm not buying the apology
The issue that I have with Snoke being irrelevant is that his actions led to the complete nullification of the ending of the original Trilogy. It feels like if they can just randomly introduce a new threat that upends everything, even without any build up or weighty story explanation, then no victory has any value in this series. Of course, a cheap excuse to bring back the emperor wasn't any better...
I don't think this is true at all. A lot of stuff in the original trilogy was brainstormed and changed as they went along but George still had a general idea of where he wanted things to go. And he was a consistent factor in every film. There was no creator here to even admit that they didn't know where the story was going. It's supposed to be a trilogy. You need SOME connective tissue between each film. Even if they didn't have a consistent writer across all three films, the least they could have done was rolled with the creative decisions made by their directors. Instead, they had the last film in this trilogy fighting to erase the middle film. I don't really understand what you're trying to argue here. You think most stories are just improvised? Of course writers don't have EVERYTHING mapped out from the get go. That's why we have drafts, editors, etc. But generally speaking, if you're creating a story that spans multiple films, books, etc. you need a rough plan or a consistent creative force behind the story. The ST had neither.The problem with this reasoning is that there's no way to falsify it. Like, truly, short of dimensioning hopping to alternate realities where we see a planned version of the ST by someone, how could anyone possibly convince you that planning has no significant influence?
All we can do is point to the OT, which had no plan at all and was great, and the PT, which had atleast a notion of the plan in the framing of "We need certain things, like anakin becoming Vader, to happen", and was awful. The Lord of the Rings trilogy had an installed 'plan' in that they are an adaptation of the books which meant they at all times knew what plot points and themes they were building up to, but the hobbit, which also had an installed plan in that it was an adaptation of the book meant they at all times knew which plot points and themes they were building up to is one of the worst movie series in existence.
You hear so many stories about movies and shows and books where the creators openly admit they didn't know what they were doing but it all worked out great, but also where they admit they didn't know what they were doing and it turned out to be The Room, so many situations where there was a guy with a vision in the room and it turned out shit and so many situations where there was a guy with a vision in the room and it turned out amazing
For me, it's obvious that a having a plan is basically a non-factor in terms of predicting how good a story turns out. Like, none whatsoever, it's just that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and for me the deciding factor seems to be whether the people making the decisions make the correct ones for that story at the time. But if the history of storytelling isn't enough to convince you of that, what can?
I wonder if learning Snoke's backstory in TROS actually made anyone happy. We all know who was now: a pickled clone that Sheev operated like a drone, I guess. The wrong has been righted, the sin absolved, the Wookieepedia article fully filled out. Is there anyone who was upset over Snoke having no backstory in TLJ actually satisfied by him getting one in TROS?
Petulant man children are scarier and more damaging to society than competent leaders. Just look at Trump.
No, it made nobody happy, because it was clearly an afterthought, rather than a clever setup/payoff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLLGN7zv-3k
The fact that people weren't happy with this is further proof that the bullshit Wookiepedia false dichotomy pushed here is not what disappointed fans wanted, because you are right, ROTS did give us a soulless Wookiepedia answer... and we remain pissed
The ROTS Snoke explanation honestly could have worked if there had been some hints to Palpatine coming back or Snoke being a clone in the prior movies (it was one of the major theories going around). It wouldn't have been amazing or inspired, but it could have been some form of payoff and at least justified the lame character's presence
The one thing we can almost all agree on is that ROTS was trash, and it's attempts to "fix" things often made them worse
As it stand's, Snoke was a Chekov's gun never fired.
I would've liked it if he actually did anything more interesting with it. "You thought I was going to do the thing, but I didn't!!" Isn't especially engaging on its own.I love how uninterested Johnson was in pandering to the most sentimental and predictable quarters of the fanbase.
by your logic they shouldn't have any backstory for characters ever because they are all shitty Wookieepedia entries.
He was just a fuckin' guy with some powers, and then he died so you don't have to worry about him any more.